DodgeCharger.com Forum

Ok, my first post, so hopefully this isn't an overly worn out topic:

Has the quantity ever been confirmed as 392, or 520, or ???

What about the XS '500s???  Do they really exist???

Years ago I saw I picture of what looked like a bunch of '500s and Daytonas sitting outside of Creative Industries, does anyone have copies of this photo?

The number has never been confirmed but 392 seems to be the most commonly accepted number.   Yes, the XS ones exist. 

Here are some from the aerowarriors.com website....

As Ghoste has stated, the number for the longest time was 392, then some years ago, Galen revamped that number to the 500+ number... About 580 if I'm not mistaken..... Nothing's been confirmed nor denied about that... Still hard for me to think that more than the 500 needed were produced for they cost MaMopar alot of extra cash to make........  But, that's just me...... Does anyone know how Galen came about revising the numbers?

Yes, the XS C500's do exist... I remember hearing about them.. My VIN shows XX, but a copy of my original title I believe shows XS...


Troy

I don't buy it either but I don't know how he came up with the number.  It doesn't seem to be widely circulated so it must be one of those things he speculated on.

  I have an article saying 392, also saying my 500 SE is one of 12 SEs, and one of 3 w/ air, but I keep hearing about so many more SEs... 

Troy,

Those are the pictures.  I could never figure why the cars were all mixed up with some looking finished, some in between, and some not started yet....

Mike

Quote from: Charger Aficionado on January 03, 2006, 09:11:00 PM
  I have an article saying 392, also saying my 500 SE is one of 12 SEs, and one of 3 w/ air, but I keep hearing about so many more SEs...  

                       I must have asked, what color is yours?               Mine is an XX on the dash tag and XS on the block and transmission and both have been struck again with the X over the S and I have had the car since 7-70

Why would the title come through with XS if the Dash VIN was XX????  Did Creative re-VIN these???  I can't believe Chrysler would risk legalities by doing this.  Why would they care about making the VINs XX anyway???  I work at DCX and there are lots of ways to track sales codes, even back then...  They could have just tracked A11 to know how many were built.  Maybe NASCAR required a distinct body model indicator??

 The first ones might have slipped through and have been sold as XS cars but had the CREATIVE treatment. ???

Highbanked Hauler:  That is interesting.  They must have been re-VIN'ed then??  I've worked at Chrysler for 20 years, and have been closely associated with lots of programs.  I've only ever seen one engine re-stamped in my time.  Let's just say it was for a fella named Lee, and the car was red and fast, and was the 1st one ever built for production!!

They'll be scratching their heads for years to come on that one, 'cause the engine had featues not available for the car it was put in!

Quote from: 69Charger500 on January 03, 2006, 09:22:46 PM
Troy,

Those are the pictures.  I could never figure why the cars were all mixed up with some looking finished, some in between, and some not started yet....

Mike

I'm sure their lot was pretty small as well as their facility... So, do as much as you can, and then stick it outside....... But, that's just a guess........

Troy

The given 69 daytona number was always 433 440 and 70 hemi=503 .Then you figured in the Canada totals a extra 43 cars.brought it up to like 543.Though actual daytona shippment list reached somewhere around 501.With the 69 charger 500s .I always recall the 392 given number.And the story they ran cars past nascar inspectors twice.But there seems to be more and more 69 500s showing up .I got handfulls of them used to be or maybe still just in NJ area.1 is the old propane X car

Quote from: 69Charger500 on January 03, 2006, 09:29:48 PM
Why would the title come through with XS if the Dash VIN was XX????  Did Creative re-VIN these???  I can't believe Chrysler would risk legalities by doing this.  Why would they care about making the VINs XX anyway???  I work at DCX and there are lots of ways to track sales codes, even back then...  They could have just tracked A11 to know how many were built.  Maybe NASCAR required a distinct body model indicator??

They did have records, but they were lost in a facility fire.......  The bane of our Mopar hobby.....

Troy

Quote from: Highbanked Hauler on January 03, 2006, 09:24:30 PM
                I must have asked, what color is yours?         Mine is an XX on the dash tag and XS on the block and transmission and both have been struck again with the X over the S and I have had the car since 7-70

Mine is F8 Black interior.  My buildsheet says XS, but fendertag and Vin are proper XX.  Vin on engine is perfectly stamped. 

I posted the document below a couple of weeks back, and reading through what it says it's no wonder the guys on the line were confused as to what the heck they were supposed to do.

Galen's book says there were 580 C500's, but I had heard the 392 number for years as well.  

Daytona's I had always seen pegged at 503, but I had thought that included the Canadian cars?   I cross-checked the Daytona shipping list for errors, and can only come up with 499 VIN's now though...

When I sorted through the daytona shipment list .To come up with the daytona per state totals .And breakdown of what states got the# amounts 440-and 426.I seen 2 same vins for different dealers.The list has a small % of mistakes.There is a similar list for the 69 500 like the daytona shipments .But Ive only gotten a page of all NJ sold 69 500s.As early back in 1979 lists showed 64 or 65 69 charger 500 cars .Then in 1989 it rose to 181 .And now Id say it would have to be over 400 or so as to the numbers stated on here are going up.I can account for some from NJ propane X was from my part of NJ .Then the car in Don Garlits museum left my town for FL.It was a R4 hemi 4 speed charger 500.2 came from a NJ junkyard.My friend has a blue on blue AC 69 500.That I passed on in the late 78-79 .Or early 80s.Wanted it to be a daytona .But it had AC

Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 04, 2006, 12:31:09 AM
When I sorted through the daytona shipment list .To come up with the daytona per state totals .And breakdown of what states got the# amounts 440-and 426.I seen 2 same vins for different dealers.The list has a small % of mistakes

Yes, there is a small percentage of mistakes, I count four.

Car #17 and #364 are the same VIN's (total from 503 to 502)
Car #24 and #493 are the same VIN's (total from 502 to 501)
#92 was skipped (total from 501 to 500)
#115 was skipped (total from 500 to 499)

Hence my earlier statement, I count 499 cars on the Daytona Shipping List.

But...   There are two VIN's that are "missing" from long VIN sequences, and those may have been inadvertently left off the list, or were supposed to be in the #92 and #115 slots.   Those VINs are 355109 and 410792.   I don't know if those cars exist today, or ever existed, but they are in the middle of some long sequential runs of Daytona VINs.

I did an Excel Spreadsheet of all the info on the Shipping Lists a couple of years back, and it makes tasks like this a whole lot easier.   One of these days I'll have to do the same for the 500's and maybe the Superbirds too.

Geno

I did this awhile back its in the best of moparts and I submitted it to the wingcar club newsletter.There is also a 40 vintage wingcar postings of pictures and 69 charger 500 info in the archives in the best of section

69 Daytona list per state totals going from the current standing list number to date #501 cars from pages supplied in my club newsletter that shows the new car shipments for 69 daytonas and locations shipped to Including serial numbers and dealer number and dealer location. Also shows what states did and did not recieve a 69 daytona .Starting with the 440s AL-11 AZ-5 AR-2 CANADA 45 CA-38 CO-12 CON-2 DE-1 FL-16 GA-16 HAWAII-2 ID-1 IL-22 IN-21 IA-3 KAN-7 KEN-5 LOU-7 ME-1 MD-2 MASS-5 MI-26 MINN-3 MISS-1 MO-21 MONT-1 NEB-4 NV-2 NH-2 NJ-6 NY-26 NC-13 NDKT-1 SDKT-4.OH-25 OK-9 ORE-7 PA-23 RI-3 SC-4 TN-5 TX-20 UT-1 VT-1 VA-13 WA ST-7 WA-DC-2 W VA-1 WI-9-The 426 states AZ-1 CANADA-5 CA-7 CO-3 GA-1 IL-1 IN-1 KAN-1 MD-1 MI-2 MO-1 NY-1 NC-1 OH-3 PA-1 SC-1 TX-3 WVA-1 WI-1 .Total #501 465- 440 Hemi-36 for the 47 states 1 line was unreadable unknown state. 2 cars were 440 dodge exec cars with no dealer location in house cars and figured in with the MI total.Only #3 states didnt recieve 69 Daytona on this current list Alaska-New Mexico-Wyoming

I searched and found this post on how many 69 charger 500-s
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1994468&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

I have pics of a broadcast sheet and fender tag that I was requested not to post on the internet until February but after that time I can show and it clearly shows on them both "XS", the same car has XX on the dash tag.  I think the legalities were less then than today.  The cars were being rushed into homologation to qualify for NASCAR.  Remember, they began life as regular RT's before being sent to Creative so it isn't unusual to see the first ones still coded as XS.

Here's the fender tag to the first Charger 500 built at Creative.  It shows XS and again the dash of this car shows XX.


(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/Ghoste/FirstXXtagb.jpg)

I haven't seen a charger 500 with a VIN lower than XX29J9B210731 that doesn't have the VIN listed as XS on the fender tag. It seems that somewhere on November the 14th of 1968 they started stamping the fender tags as XX As well. However I have only seen 2 Charger 500's that have the XS on the VIN tag on the dash as well. Plenty of the cars have XS on the buildsheets too, other have it on the motor, or trans as well.

I believe 392 is more accurate.

The 575 number is from a document listing vins which I've been told by a Creative industries employee that was a faked document to fool NASCAR.

Quote from: 69_500 on January 04, 2006, 05:17:20 AM
I believe 392 is more accurate.

The 575 number is from a document listing vins which I've been told by a Creative industries employee that was a faked document to fool NASCAR.

That's what I think too.  There was no reason for them to build more after the Talladega hit the track, the 500 was relegated to being a stop gap measure.

The vin for the first 69 charger 500 .I recalled was a vehicle order # 92500*of 1106** the R4 red hemi   4speed road test magazine press car C5X interior white stripe. polara type wheel covers car .That was Mike R s car from NY.And 360*** for the 68 marker light protoype charger 500.Followed by numbered sequence the Propane X car.Looking over that partial hemi 500 fender tag earlier shown .The XS   is the same begining as a 69 RT charger .And later not sure exactly where the change was and what build date.The old P Haldiman former Liebrandt car red 69 hemi 500.Was a XS car it was still in the 224*** vin sequence.So I suppose from that numbered point they go XX

The former M Russo hemi charger 500.Shows in the 79 records.The lastime I seen it it had Harold Sullivans name attached to it a carlisle.If thats who still owns it currently.The build dates I can recall for the 69 500s were from 801-C20

Harold Sullivan no longer owns it.  It currently belongs to a fellow right here in my own little Mayberry part of Canada and it is about to be auctioned off by RM at their Boca auction in February.

this might be stupid but did they ever crash test these things cause that could be a reason why 499 daytonas where shipped and not 503, 4 for crash tests.

It's not a stupid question.  Crash testing wasn't the strictly regulated thing back then that it is today.  They didn't need endless tests of each iteration of a vehicle, so, no, as far as I know, none were used for crash tests.

Also, it was said that some C500's were eventually made into Daytonas........ But, the timing doesn't make sense on that argument.. The production of the C500 ended in Dec. '68. The demise of the C500 was the Feb.'69 Daytona 500 when Glotzbach finished second. From that dayt forward, the C500 was doomed and the envisioned creation of "something" better was born........

Troy

Production ended but when were they all shipped?  Could also have been some vehicle order numbers in the system which were already entered as XX cars slated to be 500's which were then put on hold?  Part of the NASCAR bamboozle maybe?  Only theorizing.

Quote from: Ghoste on January 05, 2006, 04:36:10 AM
Production ended but when were they all shipped?  ...

Good point..........   

From the old vintage wingcar   pictures .I have and race tapes .Ive seen it appears to me .The chargers would recieve metal transplants.Go from a season being a 500 .And next season being a daytona.And wasnt the wingcar metal parts supplier to the racers Nichols engineering.So I wouldnt think unsold or factory inventory 500s or daytonas.Would be converted to racing.But who knows maybe a indepentant racer might ofdid it?,.But it still doesnt explain so many missing cars.Unless the factory numbers and not even close to being accurate.And lesser numbers of 500s and daytonas.Were actually built from the numbers we assume to be correct.We have the daytona shipmemt list with dealers and vins.But this document might be more factory numbers gamesThey only had to build so many by Sept 69 in order to qualify to race.They say they did pull a fast one on nascar inspectors runnig same 69 500 car to be counted twice.So who knows what you can believe?Ive seen 69 charger 500s in the numbers of 64-65 in earlier 79 wingcar club newsletters.Then by the 80-s go to 181.And somewhere in the 90-s exceed that amount.And know the assumed to be numbers are 400 or even more.When along through out the years and several wingcar club newsletters were using the 392 number.

Quote from: nascarxx29
From the old vintage wingcar   pictures .I have and race tapes .Ive seen it appears to me .The chargers would recieve metal transplants.Go from a season being a 500 .And next season being a daytona.

Definitely true.   A lot of race chassis from that era wore many different years/models sheet metal skins.   Heard rumors of some chassis being used for different makes (brands) too...

Quote from: nascarxx29
And wasnt the wingcar metal parts supplier to the racers Nichols engineering.

Yep, at least until the 1970 season - that was a major part of the incentive package to get Petty back to Plymouth/Chysler.   Nichels lost the race parts supply contract then.

Quote from: nascarxx29
So I wouldnt think unsold or factory inventory 500s or daytonas.Would be converted to racing.But who knows maybe a indepentant racer might ofdid it?,.But it still doesnt explain so many missing cars.Unless the factory numbers and not even close to being accurate.

I agree, no unsold street aero cars would have ended up being sent to the track.   Too costly to buy a fully-equipped street car and turn it into a racer.   They did that with Body-In-White chassis, but that's a totally different story, and those weren't given VIN's either.   I also don't think there were any factory-inventory 500s or Daytonas.   I wouldn't even classify the cars sent to the Regional Offices as factory inventory, but that could be debated.   They were pretty much all sent out to the Dealers.  

Inaccurate numbers? A distinct possibility, especially with the C500's.

Quote from: nascarxx29
And lesser numbers of 500s and daytonas.Were actually built from the numbers we assume to be correct.We have the daytona shipmemt list with dealers and vins.But this document might be more factory numbers gamesThey only had to build so many by Sept 69 in order to qualify to race.

I suppose that the Daytona's numbers could have been fudged, but you don't hear rumors about vastly fewer numbers of Daytonas than reported like we've always heard about the C500s.   Also - they had to show that the Daytonas had been shipped to the Dealers, and not just "made" prior to garnering NASCAR's approval for the '69 Talladega race.   I know I have a copy around here somewhere of the documents to (and later, from) NASCAR requesting (and getting) approval the Daytona body style for use in the race.   Where's Doug Schellinger when we need him?     :P

Quote from: nascarxx29
They say they did pull a fast one on nascar inspectors runnig same 69 500 car to be counted twice.

Was there an actual inspector that looked at cars?   I didn't think they did that on the Daytonas, but perhaps they did so on 500s.   Some other rumors I've heard is that Chrysler took VINs from other Hamtramck cars, and tacked an XX29L prefix on them instead of what they really were, and listed them in their report to NASCAR.   If they fudged that list, that might explain why Chrysler "lost" it once they got approval from NASCAR.   No one would want to take the fall for that.

Quote from: nascarxx29
So who knows what you can believe?Ive seen 69 charger 500s in the numbers of 64-65 in earlier 79 wingcar club newsletters.Then by the 80-s go to 181.And somewhere in the 90-s exceed that amount.And know the assumed to be numbers are 400 or even more.When along through out the years and several wingcar club newsletters were using the 392 number.

This issue will never be definitively settled in all likelihood.   Even having a list of shipped 500's (if it still exists) might only fuel the speculation that the list was fudged.   The world will never know...   Which reminds me - how many licks does it take to get to the center of a TootsiePop?     :icon_smile_big:

http://aerowarriors.com/watn.html  .That letter HemiGeno mentioned might be on this site .Also at the time it was believed as a chrysler employee wing car guy.Greg who owns the #88 research daytona And he also found the green 70 daytona inhouse picture.Had also found a 385 daytona shipment list.That list later was updated to #501 dodge daytonas.As a copy belonging to mopar writer .Anthony Young .Anthony wrote the mighty mopar book back in the day .And he mentioned where the first and last daytona was sold and shipped to in that book.Later he submitted his list to the wing car club.As he must of had access to the chyrsler historical archives.When he wrote that book

That letter Hemi Geno refred to might be this one as they had to showACCUS nascar counters all daytona in the required number were built in time and delivered.In order to qualify intime to race the daytona.Dated Sept 9-69 from Mr John Oliveau of ACCUS.That said here is a list of shipments by date which includes over 500 of the dodge daytonas .And shows which date each of them was shipped.You will note we too caught the duplication on *92 and that was  deleted from the list.And subsequent numbers altered

We also shouldn't discount the fact that every once in a while NASCAR looks the other way in the interest of competition.  A extremely slight possibility yes, but possible nonetheless.

Quote from: Ghoste on January 05, 2006, 05:34:35 PM
We also shouldn't discount the fact that every once in a while NASCAR looks the other way in the interest of competition.   A extremely slight possibility yes, but possible nonetheless.

                 My guess and its only a guess, it is-was much more than slight possibility. :angel:

Perhaps.  But when it comes to "plausible denial" there's no one in DC got it on the good ole boys from NASCAR. ;)

Then there is this letter to Ronnie Householder from ACCUS dated Sept 8-69 that stated.Completion of surveys at dodge factory september 3.And dodge dealer surveys September 5-6-8-.Covering dodge daytona charger indicate that the dodge division of chrysler corporation has complied with the production requirements established for stock car racing,The dodge daytona is therefore now eligible for competition as of this date

hemigeno:   Not sure how to do the quote thing yet, but here goes:

"""""Quote from: nascarxx29"""""""
They say they did pull a fast one on nascar inspectors runnig same 69 500 car to be counted twice.

"""""Quote from: hemigeno""""""
Was there an actual inspector that looked at cars?   I didn't think they did that on the Daytonas, but perhaps they did so on 500s.   Some other rumors I've heard is that Chrysler took VINs from other Hamtramck cars, and tacked an XX29L prefix on them instead of what they really were, and listed them in their report to NASCAR.   If they fudged that list, that might explain why Chrysler "lost" it once they got approval from NASCAR.   No one would want to take the fall for that.


Now that makes sense about the "lost" list.   I used to have some good contacts at Chrysler Historical, but now all I get is "we don't have those records on the 500's anymore."   I know Galen is in tight with some key people there, and it would not surprise me if HemiGeno is right.   Why else would anybody care if the "list" is published or not at this point in time.   They probably asked him to "play along" with the dealer list so no one would be the wiser that the number wasn't anywhere near 500.   I was told by sources at Chrysler Historical and from Galen himself they are afraid people would build "fake" cars using the info.   How could someone build a "fake" car if the real one is out there somewhere with a documented history, unless some of the "real" cars never existed in the first place........

I know how to search DMV records using VINs or names or license plates or whatever, and I know Galen has "gone fishing" for rare cars using this method.   If his list of 580 or so was real, wouldn't he have found some of the missing cars with his searches????

Think about that for a minute!

Mike

Especially with him being a 500 fan.

Dave,

Yep, those are the two letters I was talking about.   I know I have them somewhere.   Too many papers floating around the office here, and not near enough time to get them all organized.

The point of the letters is that Chrysler complied with the NASCAR requirement by providing a Shipment List, and apparently there was a Dealer Survey as well.   Might have just been some random spot-checks to make some attempt at verification.   I don't think there was a NASCAR official sitting on a stool over at Creative Industries checking off cars as they rolled by.   That's another reason why I don't think the legendary C500 story about rolling the same car past someone multiple times holds water.   

If you think about it, the last C500's would have been rolling through Creative Industries in late December, or early January at the latest.   The first 500's were probably delivered months before that.   At no point in time were all of the cars grouped together where they could be checked off a list by anyone, much less a NASCAR official.   Even the Daytonas were shipped out over a period of time ranging from 8/16 to 9/8 (except for the first one that went to Canada in June).   

It's interesting that the Householder letter was dated the same day (9/8/69) that the last thirteen Daytonas were shipped out to Dealers. Nothing like going down to the wire, since the Talladega 500 race was held September 14th.   

69Charger500, I had not heard that Chrysler Hysterical or Galen was protecting the C500 list to prevent "faked" cars.   Why weren't they as protective about the Superbird and/or Daytona information, when those cars' value usually eclipse that of Dodge's first aero car?   Something is rotten in Denmark (no offense to our EU friends).

Right.   And if there are really 540 or 580 numbers on the list I know he has, and if 150-200 of them had VINs which were known by him or Chrysler Historical to "NOT" be Charger 500s, THEN there would be something to build a fake from right????   Just "lose" the original history on a non-500 car on the list, do the conversion, and voila, another "long-lost" Charger 500 shows up, right?

Oh, that is what they have both told me numerous times over the years.

It is especially convenient that there are known real Charger 500s with XS paperwork.   That muddies up the water just enough doesn't it?

And if they let the list go public, some guys out there would be scratching their heads saying, "wait a minute, I bought my car new, and it is not a 500, but it is on the list!"

Maybe that's a stretch, but why all the secrecy on their part about releasing the entire list?

And maybe the Daytona & Superbird lists and numbers were more on the level than the 500s, so they did not need to hide them or "lose" them.

Mike

Being as we got so many 500 fans .I got this ?This is the missing 69 AC gold charger 500 missing from my town XS29L9B157499
> prior owner Francis Burley last owner in NJ Jim Benson.Car was restored but not fininshed for $3500.00.Back in 87 or 89.I had to remember in my piles of papers what pile had those 2 letters Hemo Geno. :icon_smile_big:

I personally don't think that's a stretch at all.   Just because Galen says something doesn't make it so.   I'm from Missouri, so I'm a skeptic by nature.   Things happen for a reason, and there is a reason why this information isn't being put out there.

If this list has been padded, it's entirely possible that neither Chrysler or Galen knows which ones are legit, and which ones are not.   Galen may already have multiple cars in the Registry which (as Mike/69Charger500 hypothesized) are on the list but aren't really 500s after all.   He couldn't pare the list down even if he wanted to unless ALL the "bogus" 500 VIN's were known.   If Chrysler Hysterical or Galen knew which ones those are, they'd have put out an official total of how many were produced.   

At this point in time, no one cares whether NASCAR's homologation rules were satisfied or not.   That can't be the reason for all this secrecy, since there's no possible repercussions from that sort of a revelation nearly 37 years after it happened.   What Mike pointed out as a possibility could be that legitimate fear which would keep this info under wraps - someone capitalizing on the shipping list to turn a car into something it never was (and using Chrysler's own paperwork to try and make it stick).

Geno

PS - Dave, I wish I had my papers even put into piles...   :rotz:

  And I swear some of those recent eBay auctions for 500s have said 392, BUT also have Govier Documentation.   Who has those old auction numbers?  I'd like to re-check that out...  Where did Govier say that 500+number?

The 69 daytona lists started of as offer by Greg who had the only known 385 daytona shipment list in existence .Who worked at chryslerAnd had a ad in the wingcar newsletter as he was in the wingcar club also.Saying to all 69 daytona owners.Send in a vin rubbing of your serial number.And he would send you for free,The dealer and known listed info on your car only.And this#501 list became available to the wingcar club.By Anthony Young who wrote Mighty Mopars.There is a similar complete 69 charger 500s list.But I dont have it.Or know what totals are on it.As for the superbird there is no dealer info shipment list other then what numbers of cars went to what states and zones.But there is a nascar list called the# 1920.That has all superbird serial numbers in it.But there are some numbers repeated in this book .But it contains #1920 serial numbers for the superbird

GG's little white book (mine was ordered last year, and is the July 2001 edition) now gives the 580 number.   That includes (according to him), all 440 and Hemi 500's shipped to the US.   He shows four going to Canada (One Hemi and three 440's), which would be in addition to the 580.   I suppose that would mean a total of 584 cars.   He also lists 14 500SE's, but I would expect those cars are counted in the 584 number, since their VIN isn't distinguishable from the non-SE cars.

The strange thing is, he lists 119 Hemi 500's, and 450 wedge 500's that are known-to-exist.   That's nearly all of the 500's that were ever made by his own totals!.   I highly suspect that his "knowledge" was imparted through the super-secret Shipping List.   He boasts no such high percentage of knowledge about the Daytonas, or Superbirds for that matter.

Again, something's fishy about this whole issue.

Agreed.  Galen loves to blow his own horn and if he could turn this into anything that helps him, he would. 

My 500 has a december 4th build date,and the Vin is in the 239,000s.

Wow,

The known to exist numbers I have from him are way lower...     see lower right had corner...

But that's dated from before his white book update.  He must have changed his mind?

Oh...   something just occurred to me that is so obvious it was staring me right in the face.   If you had a list of rare cars that no one else had, and you knew how easy and relatively cheap it is to run DMV searches, then releasing the list would cut in on your potential action, right?   Say there are 100 missing cars, and DMV searches now run an average of $10 per state (they are $7 in Michigan).   The cars were shipped to say 50 states.   For $50,000 you have a darn good chance of finding some really rare cars that have been lost for a long time....   That is a lot of money, but I would bet if you worked your way through the record searches, it would finance itself pretty quickly...

What about that???

I don't know?  I don't think he's that nefarious.

And, my friends , that is exactly how he said he found his 1 of 2 Hemi Coronet 440.......

And I humbly offer my retraction.

Ouch.....     Now I just remembered the list is a shipping list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It isn't necessarily 100 cars X 50 States X $10.   It is more like 100 cars X $10, 'cause he knows where each car was originally shipped!!!!!!!!!!!   Not so many cars leave their home states, right?   Some do, but I would bet most do not......

By the way Ghoste, that was a classic Reply!!

Also wouldn't hurt to be the keeper of thousands of lost Broadcast Sheets, eh?????   Of course you would reunite them with their rightful owner, but what about all the others??????????   Especially, Hemis, Aero Cars, Six Packs, T/As, AARS, etc, etc, etc.......

I have only run DMV records on cars I've owned, but if I knew something was out there, why not, it's a free country.  My '71 Challenger 383 Magnum convertible came from Tennessee originally.  I wrote their DMV a nice letter about 17 years ago inquiring if they had any info.  They wrote me back a nice letter stating it would cost me $15 'cause there was so much info to copy and mail.  I sent my check, and about two weeks later received the vehicle's complete history, including the original bill of sale, the Manufacturer's Statement of Origin, Loan records, title records, and registration records, about 20 pages in all!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I have my own broadcast sheet story about him but this isn't the forum or the thread so I'll share it another time.  As to keeping them, well, we did discuss this about a week ago I suppose but I still think that if he was so concerned about helping get these sheets to their owners, he'd co-operate more with the groups that are specifically geared to certain models.  Maybe I'm speaking out of turn and it isn't as easy as that.
So, have we come to any agreements as to how many 500's were built?   hahahahahhahhahahaha

I am now convinced his new numbers are correct, and he has verified them by doing exactly what I suggested, and maybe hooked a few people up with some rare cars along the way.   How else do the "Known to Exist" numbers jump by 250-300 cars in 7 years?????????

Probably 90% of those "new" Known to Exist" cars, are "Known to Exist" in Salvage Title heaven..........................

I tried researching my own car by the DMV historical services.And they didnt go that far back.I know FL I think also MO not sure how the other states operate.Fl and MO can trace your car back to the MSO manafactures statement of origin selling dealer and past known owners.By what about other states like mine that offer limited years of research from the DMV.How could someone compile a accurate numbers of cars.Left in existence.Unless they have access to some kind of factory list

Well, I'm going to pull a Galen here.  I think it's still the long accepted number.  The higher number seems to exist only because he printed it.  No other evidence has been offered whatsoever.  His philosophy has always been that until he physically verifies that a car exists, it does not exist.  I don't see where he has verified the existence of these car and until he (or someone) does, I remain with the 392 camp.

I go with the 392 number.I don't give a hoot about what Mr. Govier says.If he has a list of known C500 VINs then wouldn't that make it easier( and less costly) to search DMV's for the missing ones? I don't or can't believe all C500's survived anyway.So if you say that 584 were built minus how many are known left how many does that leave?Close to 392?Hmmmmmm.
Another thing i always wondered about,you see in MCG Galen asking people to GIVE him info about certain things but he CHARGES people to give them info.And if he really was a good Mopar guy, why doesn't he GIVE the broadcast sheets and info he has on cars that exist to the current owners.I guess just someone else with their own motives at heart.

He will give the broadcast sheets to the owners and he does do that free of charge.  I have to give him credit for that.

I stand corrected.

Ok, Well I suppose anything regarding production totals of Chrysler vehicles must be substantiated by Chrysler itself.  I will contact the folks over at Chrysler Historical this morning and see if they want to help out the hobby on this matter.

Does anyone know the origin of the 392 number???

You know what?  I have no idea.  I guess I stand by it because it is the number I have seen used so many times for so many years but I cannot recall where I first heard or read it.  It must have come from Chrysler at one time but I certainly don't know that.

Quote from: 69Charger500 on January 06, 2006, 08:27:04 AM
Does anyone know the origin of the 392 number???

If you look at the "Nascar Registry" letter from GG that Mike posted, it says that the totals of C500's are "rumored to be" 392.   That is well in excess of the number known to exist at that time.   You can add up his totals for 440 (262) and Hemicars (64+66) and come to the 392 figure exactly.

I agree with what Dave is saying, I don't think each and every state keeps its records back that far.   Maybe if someone had done this legwork just a few years after the cars were made, it would have been possible to verify each car titled in a particular state.   Texas is one that I know for a fact doesn't keep records going back much over 10 years.   I would dearly love to have information going back earlier than 1984-5 on my Hemicar (it sold new in TX, and I first checked with them in 1998).

I have to believe that Galen's new-found knowledge came from some other source than checking with DMV records.   If he's using a top-secret Shipping List to come up with these new totals, that's fine.   However, I don't agree with using such a list as justification for stating that each car is known-to-exist.   That's a whole different ballgame.  

Just thinking here...   Do you think Chrysler would have generated a stack of MSO's to use as verification for NASCAR?   That may be why the documentation was never released, since that's of a more sensitive nature.   AND, if they did that, would Chrysler have been above padding that stack of MSO's with cars whose VIN's were slightly altered (to suit their purposes, such as the XS to XX fiasco), or were never produced in the first place (which I don't think is as likely)?

:shruggy:

Thats a good question how to validate the origins of the long accepted #392 number .As 500 was the homolgation rule required number by nascar at that time.As for the superbird for example   the #1920 or the 1935 number was suppose to originate from 2 cars for every dealer chrysler had . So how did they arrive at that 392 given number?

Well, I think that goes back to the issue of the cars becoming obsolete as soon as the Talladega arrived.  Chrysler may have fudged numbers to NASCAR with every intention of building the cars and just stopped completing 500 conversions when they realized it was pointless to follow the rule anyway.

Ok, I have spoken with the folks over at the Historical Department.   We discussed the issue, and why it is important to the hobby to get some clarification (we, the real enthusiasts, are after all, the ones who have kept these cars alive at considerable expense and effort over all these years).   They are going to look back at their records to see what's there.   They have also said they will contact Galen about the "List," and request a copy and some form of substantiation of where it came from.

Stay tuned...

p.s.   regarding DMV records/searches, Michigan only goes back 10 years as well, and California doesn't release them at all, unless directed to do so by a court order.   As of the late '80s, Tennessee had full histories available.   These are all I know of personally, as this is where my cars have originated from.

I would highly recommend to all of you, if you have not already requested your vehicle's history from that state's DMV where it was sold new (or later as used), do so immediately.   The longer you wait, the more unlikely it is the information will be retained.   Especially since paper copies have long since become obsolete............

I have no doubt some of you will find a wealth of information you did not know even existed, that has been sitting in some storage cabinet for 30-some years....

Quote from: 69Charger500 on January 06, 2006, 09:23:21 AM
Ok, I have spoken with the folks over at the Historical Department.  We discussed the issue, and why it is important to the hobby to get some clarification (we, the real enthusiasts, are after all, the ones who have kept these cars alive at considerable expense and effort over all these years).  They are going to look back at their records to see what's there.  They have also said they will contact Galen about the "List," and request a copy and some form of substantiation of where it came from.

Stay tuned...

Is this the potential de-throne?...  hahahaha    Just kidding..........

It would be AWESOME if this information could become public or at the very least given to those individuals that have a longtime history of promotion and preservation like Doug and the Georges.....

I'm crossing my fingers......... 

69Charger500: I applauded your connections and drive to get the answers... If not, then at least you tried for ALL of us.......

Troy

I'd love to see the look on Galen's face when Chrysler contacts him and wants proof of his number and copy of any "secret list" he might have.   

Quote from: Ghoste
Well, I think that goes back to the issue of the cars becoming obsolete as soon as the Talladega arrived.   Chrysler may have fudged numbers to NASCAR with every intention of building the cars and just stopped completing 500 conversions when they realized it was pointless to follow the rule anyway.

I don't think they stopped production on the C500 because of a perceived inferiority to the Talladega/Cyclone.   The 500 was not a bad car aerodynamically, although it doesn't hold a candle to the Daytona or Superbird.   Charlie Glotzbach told me himself that he lost the '69 Daytona 500 race because of tire strategy - he got slingshotted on the last lap by LeeRoy Yarbrough who had fresher tires.   He said he could run all day long with the Fords, and pass them when he wanted/needed to.   Four of the top six starting spots (including the pole, #2 and #4) in the '69 Daytona 500 were Charger500's.   It was not a slow car.

And oh-by-the-way, the street version's production had ceased and the 500+ cars were already reported to NASCAR when that Daytona race was run, or NASCAR would never have allowed the 500 on the track.

They may have slowed their production effort because orders for the cars weren't coming in as expected, but it wasn't because of what they expected from the car on the track.   Whatever sleight of hand was employed, was done so before the races were run.

69Charger500, I can't wait to see what C.H. comes back with, and if GG has to change his story yet again...

:popcrn:

Well, that was kind of what I meant by intending to build the cars.   They may have reported them with good intentions and then just changed their mind.   I see your point though.
I thought the 500 sold fairly well?

Quote from: hemigeno on January 06, 2006, 09:35:45 AM


69Charger500, I can't wait to see what C.H. comes back with, and if GG has to change his story yet again...

:popcrn:

Yet he may have to find a regular job?  Just think, information that's easily accessible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  even at a cost....

Quote from: Ghoste on January 06, 2006, 09:38:53 AM
They may have reported them with good intentions and then just changed their mind.

:scratchchin:

Now THERE'S a thought...  

The Daytona was already on the drawing board as "next year's new and improved racecar" before the 500 even debuted.   Chrysler may indeed have intended to stretch production of the 500 throughout the 1969 model year, to make it easier on Creative Industries.  

Good point...   I doubt that NASCAR would have been very understanding of that tactic if that's indeed what they did, so they would have definitely kept that little secret under wraps.

Quote from: hemi68charger on January 06, 2006, 09:40:59 AM
Yet he may have to find a regular job?   Just think, information that's easily accessible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,   even at a cost....

As they say, knowledge is power.  This has been a fascinating thread for me by the way.  :cheers:

One of the focused points of our discussion (Chrysler Historical), was that the information should be available to those who are truly enthusiasts, and not just out to make a buck.   I am re-assured that if they can help out the hobby by clarifying this, or any other info on the old Chrysler cars, they will.

I was told they had the Superbird list, but I think that is already known info.

By the way, I helped them out last summer by donating my 500 for a photo shoot and live news broadcast featuring the new Daytona at the Woodward Cruise, as the one they had was not readily available.

They contacted me and arranged with our Marketing folks to pick up my car and deliver it to downtown Pontiac's Phoenix Center at the North end of the cruise.   As I was loading 3 of my daughters into my Jeep Wrangler to head down to the cruise, an 80 foot long semi trailer shows up outside my house to pick up the Charger.

Good thing my Jeep was a Rubicon, 'cause I ended up having to lead that semi through traffic, and on a few occasions had to take the Jeep over and around some "obstacles" to see what was up ahead for the driver of the semi, so we didn't get him trapped in the sea of cars in downtown Pontiac!!!!!!

Quote from: 69Charger500 on January 06, 2006, 09:57:45 AM
One of the focused points of our discussion (Chrysler Historical), was that the information should be available to those who are truly enthusiasts, and not just out to make a buck.  I am re-assured that if they can help out the hobby by clarifying this, or any other info on the old Chrysler cars, they will.

I was told they had the Superbird list, but I think that is already known info.

By the way, I helped them out last summer by donating my 500 for a photo shoot and live news broadcast featuring the new Daytona at the Woodward Cruise, as the one they had was not readily available.

They contacted me and arranged with our Marketing folks to pick up my car and deliver it to downtown Pontiac's Phoenix Center at the North end of the cruise.  As I was loading 3 of my daughters into my Jeep Wrangler to head down to the cruise, an 80 foot long semi trailer shows up outside my house to pick up the Charger.

Good thing my Jeep was a Rubicon, 'cause I ended up having to lead that semi through traffic, and on a few occasions had to take the Jeep over and around some "obstacles" to see what was up ahead for the driver of the semi, so we didn't get him trapped in the sea of cars in downtown Pontiac!!!!!!

Ahhhh, the advantages of living near Detroit.........

In all fairness, the Woodward cruise could overwhelm the best of city planners.

. Page 1
January 5, 2000

G. T .S. Route 1, Box 322K 37002 Sand Burr Lane Prairie du Chien, WI 53821-9801

gvgovier@mhtc.net
www.gvgovier.com



Dear David,

Hope you had a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Received your letter and I will answer
your questions.   .
1. I have seen that Warranty Validation sticker before. I had a 1969 Charger RT and it was on the
   door jamb where the oil change stickers usually go.
2. I do not have a Dealer Name for # 57097. The next batch I send in I will inquire. My contact is a bit
   behind on requests because he is very busy at Chrysler or should I say Daimler-Chrysler.
3. Here is a list of all 1969 500.s Charger sold new in New Jersey:



COAST DODGE INC   1201 Main Street   Ashbury Park   NJ   XX29L9B152199        
ED VAN NESS MOTORS INC   770 Fairview Avenue   Fairview   NJ   XX29L9B210711        
FREEHOLD DODGE INC   Lakewood Road   Freehold   NJ   XX29L9B152198        
NEMITH CIRCLE DODGE INC   821 New Loudon Rd   Latham   NJ   XX29L9B199669        
NEWARK DODGE INC   11-21 Sussex Avenue   Newark   NJ   XX29L9B162292        
            XX29L9B21710        
NORTH PLAINFIELD DODGE INC   555 Somerset Street   North Plainfield   NJ   XX29L9B144160        
            XX29L9B146045        
            XX29L9B162291        
DE MAIO OODGE INC   36 Main Street   Orange   NJ   XX29L9B162292        
LABRIOLA MOTORS INC   120 E. Newman Springs Road   Red Bank   NJ   XX29L9B150548        
FOWLER MOTORS INC.   Route #15   Searta   NJ   XX29L9B144173        
RIDGE DODGE INC   85 Route #17   Woodridge   NJ   XX29L9B162294   




.

I only have 1 non-RT Charger with the W23 Wheels on file, its VIN is XP29H9B125868. If your friend's VIN is different, could you send me a copy of the Broadcast Sheet?

The 1970 Super Bee I am guessing is a St. Louis car. AlC and PtW on a Super Bee is extremely rare. The color is NOT desirable. A Bittersweet car! Can you send me a copy of the Broadcast Sheet?

If there is anything, I can do for you do not hesitate to write.
   Keep the Faith,



v


Galen V. GovierGVG/gg                                   ((Galen numbers are only as good as the info he has available to him.This is the 1 and only page I requested looking for the selling dealer in NJ for my friends 69 charger 500.I suppose this page he sent me free of charge is the 1 page of ? more from the charger 500 shipments list .And you will see they have by the vin .Same car being sold by different dealers.Whats that do for the accounted and given numbers of cars

  144160, what is the # of the first cars.I thought mine was an early car with 166356

Quote from: Highbanked Hauler  144160, what is the # of the first cars.I thought mine was an early car with 166356

Here ya go, Al...

Quote from: Ghoste on January 04, 2006, 05:05:00 AM
Here's the fender tag to the first Charger 500 built at Creative.   It shows XS and again the dash of this car shows XX.


(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/Ghoste/FirstXXtagb.jpg)

   Wow,so there is nothing in the fender tag which tells what number(C500) the car was when it was built.So the closest thing I have to go by is the wrong build sheet that is with the car as these two were at Creative at the same time.

In 1979 the given number was #548 as to this paragraph from the 1979 wingcar club newsletter     .It says we recieved some copies of paperwork sent to Mike Russo.Who owns a Hemi charger 500 which used to be the New York News Bureau's car.They are dated March 8 1971 by Charles Paul.Who at that time was regional Manager for the dodge News Bureau in New York.Mr Paul has since left chrysler.In the letter it states that #548 charger 500's were produced .Of these 15 were Hemi four 4 speed cars 17 Hemi automatic 163 440's with four speeds and 353 with 440 automatics.What sparked Mikes interest was our #392 number figure that we had.He in turn contacted RK Marvin who wrote that letter.And Mr Marvin stated he could only find #392 XX cars in the files.Meaning BOTH Daytonas and 500's.Would it be wild if it was true.But we dont think it holds water.Mr Paul also told Mike that the New York office had the hemi four 4 speed and that the Los Angeles office had a 440 automatic 500.The Detroit office never did get a 500.It seems now that alot of so called road tests done by various magazines on 500's were done with cars that magazines borrowed from various dealerships.So as you can see we have alot to learn about these cars.And as a person who keeps writing in to ask how many 500's SE'S were made.We still dont know that answer.If Chrysler comes across and lets us look at the records of the broadcast sheets then we will be able to tell you

The four speed car had to be on the west coast for a little while because Hot Rod had it and the automatic at the same time.  They COULD have borrowed one from a dealership but there probably weren't a lot of Hemi four speeds with power windows sitting on the lots.  Not to mention that they damaged the four speed car and Hot Rod's "repair" is still very visible in the car to this day.

I m not sure which car was used .But I got this Bud Lindeman road test on tape .Where they beat up on a 69 R4 hemi charger 500

Yes, it's the automatic car.  It was the second 500 built and is a near twin to the four speed car which was the first one built.

Ahhh! ............the superbird list, when, if? Mr. Patik decides to share the truth with us, you'll see the bird #'s go to 2012-13 units!.............did I let that cat out of the bag!.....sorry Dave!..............the 69 Daytona figure553,..........let's not forget those 3 70 daytonas!           :icon_smile_big:.........the C500.........number ,392?...................more.................too elusive, I really have'nt focused on the 500's...........they're whats for dinner at the Dayclona conversion factory! we've only eaten a few!   :icon_smile_big:   .....................you & I look at this as a hobby, .....some are into it more than others?..................those who "sit" on the whereabouts of cars, parts, infomation,etc....try to fool us with the line " they're trying to perserve history" or "I'm waiting to gather more documentation"..........BS............what started as a noble cause for them years ago, now is BIG BU$iNE$$..........the root of all evil!...........the money to be made!.............how would you like to be sitting on a large chunk of NOS sheetmetal.......ummmm(GG)......only because you were at the right place at the right time!.......I'm sure we all would!.........but we think! wow! all my projects are gonna have virgin metal!..........they think....Just how much can I JACK the price!......Ahhhh! Ebag....I love you!.........................................................now for the creme' de la creme', how about sitting on a list of cars unknown? unheard of!..........the time to hunt them down!, knowing the high rollers have offered even MORE $$$ for finding them something rarer than the last guy unearthed!........don't you just love those stories about how the big investor car guy is led to a hidden 1 of 1 hemi whatever by Tony,Galen,Patik,etc,etc.......they 're "pe$erving hi$tory"!..........food for thought?; I wonder how long Galen is going to sit on those 2 1971 T/A challengers!( yes 2 vins and counting!)....................................mopars, the ones waiting to be rediscovered, are not going to become the benefit of furthering our history, knowledge..........................they will benefit someones wallet/ investment portfolio,........I'm not ranting, merely posting a truthful observation of the "hobby" 30 years ago, it was the love of horsepower, and the mopar dare to be different approach!.......................today, the love of money, and thelove of money!................so if Galen says 500+ 500's, you better start looking more!..................................................................cause if I find'um, they're Daytonas when I'm done with them! :icon_smile_big:


Mike G./ proprieter/ DAYCLONA Enterprises

Quote

This might be near you ever been .To the Newport Auto Museum In RI. Ive heard they might have a daytona in there XX29L9B390009. that sold brand new in Providence RI. Ever see this car.I was going to ask about that car and car museum   on a post .Figured you live near that area.Figure I run it past you .I   couldnt pm it to you Ive only had that 1920 serial number book that goes up to #1920 since 77 78.I knew where some cars were from back in my days .Do you recall the 70 white red interior PW cuda 426 conv that was in north NJ .I knew of since the 80-s. and didnt bother with with it I was then and still into the wingcarsThat car went to MA for $465K when the story broke in MCG

Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 07, 2006, 12:47:45 AM
This might be near you ever been .To the Newport Auto Museum In RI. Ive heard they might have a daytona in there XX29L9B390009. that sold brand new in Providence RI. Ever see this car.I was going to ask about that car and car museum   on a post .Figured you live near that area.Figure I run it past you .I   couldnt pm it to you Ive only had that 1920 serial number book that goes up to #1920 since 77 78.I knew where some cars were from back in my days .Do you recall the 70 white red interior PW cuda 426 conv that was in north NJ .I knew of since the 80-s. and didnt bother with with it I was then and still into the wingcarsThat car went to MA for $465K when the story broke in MCG

Dave, never seen or heard of newport auto museum?.......however as I said before, about seeing real paperwork! car #390009, never made it to Elwood Dodge rt 44 East Providence R.I. 02903. the dealer reasigned  it to another dealer, in an other state,never entered R.I. dealership, I know this as fact! as I've researched this car, and its paperwork,owner,(original)...................I will not list its present location, sorry!..................as far as 70 white hemi conv, yes the buyer is somewhat of a regular vendor at the local swapmeets in the Conn.,R.I., Mass, area......always advertising want ads for cuda convs.,hemi E-bodies, parts, etc...............................hope this helps dave!

I know of a Red C500 in SWPA sitting in front of a old repair garage.White Stripe,Console auto. old late 70's /early 80's plates and inspection.Nice shape.   Anyway, wouldn't these number discrepencies work to someone's advantage if they wanted to make a profit on bogus cars that they built or they bought and were fooled by seller and looking to get their money back?If someone had some wealthy friends it would help them to pad the numbers. As said above by Dayclona( Who I think is right on the mark)The Mopar game today is not about the love of the cars it is all about greed.  :icon_smile_sad:

Maybe this has already been eluded to, but if all the Order Numbers were designated to start with 925, doesn't it make sense they would have just gone in sequential order from there?  My order number is 925303, with a build date of B20.  Who has the highest order number out there??

I beleve that Mike hit the nail on the head! I have owned Mopars since the seventies! My parents had a 70 Charger R/T SE brand new when I was a kid. My sister married a guy who had a 440 Sixpack Challenger R/T!  I grew up with these cars,and I build them because I love these cars. Any money that I have made on any cars,or parts over the years,goes right back into the cars.Those of us who started out in this hobby,that way,and bought up these cars when nobody wanted them anymore,know what it was like to build these cars when there was no aftermarket parts for them.The resurgance of the mighty Mopar muscle car has been good for us as far as the aftermarket parts are concerned. But it has also caused the greedy investors to drive the prices of these cars out of the price range of the people who truly love these cars! Is it a good thing,well, yes and no! Now every Bozo with a 318 Barracuda,thinks its worth 3 million dollars! But on the other hand you are seeing top notch restorations of the rarest cars,by investors with deep pockets,and these cars are being restored to levels thay would'nt have seen if they were owned by people like us! There are the so called' gurews' of the hobby who hord parts,and information,but will sell them to the highest bidder! They let out little teasers to bait us into going way over our heads to get that illusive peice of documentation.I guess we will have to take the good with the bad! It has been 40 plus years since Chrysler started building Muscle cars,and all the hype is still keeping the interest in these cars alive! Its a great time to have and build Mopar Muscle cars,that is if you already have them!

Thats why registrys play a important part.They can tell you if a car your considering used to be just a set of numbers.It would be nice for the mopar hobby .If they had something simiilar to pontiac historical .You get copys of all factory invoices.But thats not going to happen. These boards police and sometimes have background info.On a certain car from back in the day aquired on the spot info.Where I got mine and not from current guru sources .I have hemmings news all the way back to the 70-s .You find what states and where cars were and ads with vins later .You see the same car for sale again .But now its matching numbers and has less miles .On it than stated when it was in the early 70's- vintage ads from hemmings cars and parts early wingcar newsletters etc.When people were totally honest in the description of a car being sold.And I enjoy finding credible documentation like old new paper auto classified archives.

Quote from: 69Charger500 on January 07, 2006, 09:24:18 AM
Maybe this has already been eluded to, but if all the Order Numbers were designated to start with 925, doesn't it make sense they would have just gone in sequential order from there?   My order number is 925303, with a build date of B20.   Who has the highest order number out there??

Well, I can't say for certain that the C500's didn't use an exact sequential order format for the SO numbers, since I don't have access to a complete Shipping List or something of the sort. 

However, I know for a fact that the Daytonas did not.  I have logged the SO numbers from 926000 to 927254 (except for the Dale Reeker car, which had an SO assignment of 236200).  I don't think they made 1,255 Daytonas. 

As I stated, I don't know for certain that they used the same format for the 500's, but I wouldn't automatically assume that they went strictly in sequential order.

:Twocents:

You can only do so much with whats outhere in info and available to you .I dont totally rely on every magazine mopar guru for info .That were not offering much or any type of todays info .When I had my cars.But still like to read and try to find out newest hobby info .But the compilage of years of both clubs wingcar newsletters are a great archives.And also all those piles of 70-s & up hemming news.And various board postings of shared threads. Then after a trip to the library and searching the old car ads on microfilm.I would go to a show and see a superbird with its paper work that also stated its #stock number.And in turn I would hand the guy a ad for his car when it was new for sale when on the car dealership lot brand new that matched the stock # of that car.Which makes in my opinon some cool paperwork.And I given daytona owners unaware of this daytona shipment list. Some more documentation.Ive got many vintage original microfilmed muscle car ads.And try to figure possibility as to this colors annd vins theory.Ive seen alot cars with near close vins and colors run alike.From V2 Orange and R4 Red and other colored cars that were twin builds of each other . Of the many B5 cars Ive seen they sometimes tend to run in close number sequences .And seen cars starting with a certain like beginining vin  number and whatever its ending number is for example  152 153 and so one etc .Turn out to be B5 also .By a coincedence? .Or the factory painted groups of cars in consistant number vins at the same time.Has been what Ive experienced.

Hmmm, well it seems that I missed out on a lot of talk the last 3 days I was out of town.



Well lets get to the first thing I noticed in this thread.


Dave, the VIN you listed as a stolen car, out of NJ, XX29L9B157499 is the car that was for sale on Ebay about a month ago. It is painted A4 silver now with a transplanted HEMI Crate 528. It was also in the MOpar Muscle Magazine I believe on the cover to be exact.

Next thing on my list is this, the VON don't follow a sequential order, or at least I don't see how they could. The last VIN for a 500 I have the fender tag information on is the Black HEMI 500 that was just for sale recently, VIN XX29L9B248663, which has a VON of 925742.

Gene I know you looked at the list for Daytona's a lot. did you notice any cars with a higher VIN number that have a lower VON number than an earlier car? Reason I ask is because some of the 500's have VIN's of 238xxx with a lower VON than a car with a VIN starting 224xxx.    I can think of one case like this off the top of my head, a car built on 9/27 has a VON ending in 088, and a car built on 9/20 has a VON ending in 162. So how does that work? Car 110610 has a VON ending with 000, but I haven't seen another car with 001, or 002, or 003. I have seen the car with 004, and 005. With 004 being the first AT car I have seen. And tell me this, do you guys really think they built 200+ HEMI 500's?  Here is another case in point MY VIN is XX29L9B224393, with a VON of 925332 where as 69Charger500's stated his VON is 925303 with a late VIN but same build date as my car. Cars with similar VINs to his car, or at least close are mostly built on C04, with VON's in the 9255xx range. I haven't ever figured out a pattern to any of these VON's on these cars.

Has anyone here every personally seen a Charger 500 with a VIN on the dash starting XS? I have seen 1. JUST 1. Now I have seen 30+ cars with XS on the fender tag, like I stated before every car I have seen with a build date prior to B14 has XS on the fender tag. As far as the Haldiman car and my dad's old 500 having XS on the fender tag I am not sure on that. But I would say i'm 90% sure it is XX on the fender tag, maybe XS on t he build sheet.

Dan was that the beware of that car .That was for sale as a daytona.With the 157*** .It was emailed info to me.(  I got another info emailed from a guy in the charger registry that says  and I quote he saw a daytona at a show with XS and not XX It reads to the following hey I saw a daytona ST Louis couple weeks ago with XS.But being the old fart I am I cant remember .Dave do you recall ever seeing a XS Daytona)  .I dont own a 69 500 or spent as much time as I have on the daytonas . I have seen some 500s out there that are now daytonas.As people know the XX and not the daytona VS 500 number sequences differs .Ive read for years in the archive newsletter about the XS XX 500 mistake .On the manafacture statement of origin .Then the mistake would be carried on over to the title

The XX29L9B157 car was not in a Daytona trim. It was done as a 500, which it is, but it doens't have the correct motor in the car. It now has a 528 crate HEMI in it. Gorgeous ride if I may say so.

I have seen a car that is a HEMI 500 done up as a Daytona, that has been that way since the 70's. ITs VIN is very early on in the 500's and way too early to be a Daytona. Very low mileage car as well.

One more thing I was noticing when Dave posted the list of 500's that were supposed to be sold in NJ, I noticed some repeated, and also that one of the VIN's is missing a digit. XX29L9B21710, is that supposed to be 210710? or 217100? or what?

No it does show 2 cars going to different dealers.I checked my email my warning wasnt for the 157 you showed I dont believe .Its for this one

  XX29L9B155758 = title = altered
XP29G9B155758 = original car

Car is in CA, being advertised as Daytona.   Has fiberglass nose and wing.   Owner says it's "all correct and original, and all Daytona's were made that way".   Car has no fender tag, broadcast sheet, or dash plate.   Car is not even a Charger







The NJ list has a 210710 At Newark and 210711 At Ed Van Ness.The repeated vin is Demaio and Newark .Unless chrysler goofed up and made 2 cars with same vin number.Ive seen a untouched car have its dash vin riveted upside down.But so far no 2 cars with same   vin as of yet

Quote from: 69_500 on January 07, 2006, 05:42:04 PM

Gene I know you looked at the list for Daytona's a lot. did you notice any cars with a higher VIN number that have a lower VON number than an earlier car? Reason I ask is because some of the 500's have VIN's of 238xxx with a lower VON than a car with a VIN starting 224xxx.      I can think of one case like this off the top of my head, a car built on 9/27 has a VON ending in 088, and a car built on 9/20 has a VON ending in 162. So how does that work? Car 110610 has a VON ending with 000, but I haven't seen another car with 001, or 002, or 003. I have seen the car with 004, and 005. With 004 being the first AT car I have seen. And tell me this, do you guys really think they built 200+ HEMI 500's?   Here is another case in point MY VIN is XX29L9B224393, with a VON of 925332 where as 69Charger500's stated his VON is 925303 with a late VIN but same build date as my car. Cars with similar VINs to his car, or at least close are mostly built on C04, with VON's in the 9255xx range. I haven't ever figured out a pattern to any of these VON's on these cars.

Danny, I was wondering when you were going to weigh in on this subject, and/or what team of wild horses had prevented such...

I've been going through the entire Daytona Shipping List again for the last six months or so to confirm my keypunch is correct, and to complete the handwritten listings that were too tough to decipher from the original Xerox copy list.  The series of lists being printed in the WingedWarriors newsletters is helping me, but you can't take the information in there as 100% accurate either.  What they're printing is a rendering of some further documentation they have, and I would love to pore over their originals indepth at some point.  I'm getting a WHOLE lot closer to having a reliable database of Daytona information though.

To answer your questions:

There are a ton of cars with higher VINs but lower SO#s.  They started out fairly organized, and the cars with build dates of the first major Daytona production day (April 27th 1969, when they made almost 100 of them!) have SO numbers ranging from 926000 to 926099, and very few (if any) SO Numbers in this sequence went unused.  The VIN's from this build date tended to be grouped together somewhat, but they did not follow exactly according to the order of the SO numbers.  Groups of 10 or so sequential VINs and SO#s would be interspersed and interrupted with other small groups.  For that particular day's production though, the SO numbers were very much in a pattern, and the VIN's in somewhat of a pattern.

Once you get past that first day of production, all bets are off.  The VIN's were all over the place, as are the Scheduled Production Dates.  You might have a few May cars with SO numbers behind a couple of June cars.  They are all jumbled up, with some VIN's or SO numbers occasionally grouped together.

What I did notice is that the geographic area of the dealer itself played some role as to what the SO number was.  Chrysler had their dealers assigned to geographic regions, and each region had a number.  When you look at the handwritten Daytona Shipping List, the prefix in front of the dealer number indicated which region that particular dealer was from.  There were clumps of cars from the same region (but from different dealers) that would have sequential SO numbers.  These clumps (after the 1st day's production) did not group all Daytonas from that particular region, but you could see several were usually found together when I sorted the list by SO#.  There were two groups of SO numbers for Canadian cars, so they didn't even group those together with sequential SO numbers, even though their VIN's are all sequential.

I'm still in the middle of making sure that I have all the information keypunched correctly, filling in my omitted/missing information, and then trying to see if any consistent pattern appears.  It's way too early to draw any conclusions just yet.  Until I can go through the original list that Sue & Ed have, or until the entire series of Daytona Invoices is published, I wouldn't think we could make any definitive statements about what is or is not a pattern with SO numbers, etc.

I don't know if this answers your question or not, but it's what I've observed with Daytonas anyway.

Geno

What's your opinion on the 500's then based on the Daytona info? (not really a fair question but we're all just guessing here really anyway)

Oh, and when are you guys going to get together and write a small text on all of this?

Quote from: Ghoste on January 08, 2006, 12:57:32 AM
What's your opinion on the 500's then based on the Daytona info? (not really a fair question but we're all just guessing here really anyway)

Oh, and when are you guys going to get together and write a small text on all of this?

Ghoste, I wouldn't hold my breath that you can tell how many 500's were made just from studying the Special Order numbers. There's probably no set pattern for the 500's S.O. numbers any more than there is/was for the Daytonas.  Was that what you were asking?

Yeah somewhat.  I was wondering if you personally, draw any conclusions about the 500's based on what you know about the Daytona, so yes, I guess that answers my question.

  This guy said he knew of one that got crushed...  :)  I wonder if he knows anything about it, or if he is just full of it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Charger-500-Tail-Light_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34207QQitemZ4601628402QQrdZ1

Wow !!!! Seems this C500 thread has struck ALOT of discussion............  Whew !!!! All I know is that C500's are the first and rarest..  :devil:

Oh well....... It's amazing that so few people have, maybe all the info, and hold it... Mike, is that what you're saying? I guess knowledge is power and power is money.......  But, after all these years the untold true story hasn't come out yet? I guess we need to get CSI Mopar in on this....

Man, that was a short reply for me..  :icon_smile_big:     Guess I'm tired from Reserve Duty.............

Troy

The XS VS XX vin issue has been around a long time.That it was a mistake on factory titlle of orign the manafacture statement of origin.And motor vehicle would issue titles with that mistake carried on that typo.By following by a dodge 691/2 lift off hood car they have code M for the 440-6 in the dash vin .And the E68 383 engine code on fender tag.So they went to the effort of making M coded dash vin plates.As to the 69 charger 500 and they were under pressure and deadlines to finish .Might explain early cars having XS..But if they followed the same procedure as the 69 1/2 cars .All the 69 500 might have been XX on the dash.And XS on the fender tag.But who knows.Its still in the works on this thread.The 69 500 has earned a well deserved heritage.But we would like to know more about them as to how many really built. And engineering details that took place at creative .For example the 69 daytona there was found from creative a 2 page conversion list of details.We basically know it started as a 69 RT charger but not to much else.As you can still find vacuum hoses and vacuum cans in some Ive seen.That would have been used for the 69 charger hideaways lights .But as the 69 500 recieved a 68 coronet grille in place of the 69 charger grille.It also got the flush back window and a pillars.Like its next redesign used on the 69 daytona.A wing and nose added to the 69 500 platform car .And the 69 daytona was born.If i wasnt for Ford Cyclone and the Tallegeda breathing down on chrysler in the racing days .And pushing them into new designs.As they need to flush the 69 charger tunnel back window and ad the a pillar mouldings,To get more aerodynamic.Dont think our cars would have been built as they were needed for factory VS factory competion

Not for nothin guys, I know we are car guys,and honest people,but there are way too many VIN numbers flying around on this thread! With the current value of these cars,and how easy they are to steal,I don't like the numbers being posted on the internet! I could steal a 69 500,or Daytona, with a 2 foot peice of wire,and a quarter,to jump the relay with! A 70 is just a little more involved! Thats why I haven't registered my cars with any of the regestries! I know that us guys who are discussing these cars,use the numbers for Identifing,and authenticating these cars,but there may be a lot of less scrupilous people reading the threads! In some states I could write a bill of sale,and register one of these cars,using the VIN numbers you are posting,and it would be your word against mine,whoose car it is! May the best lawyer win! Think about the story of the wheel standing General Lee! FYI!!!!!!!

True.  But a lot of this info could easily be obtained at any of the many car shows these vehicles have attended in recent years.  Which, of course, is how most of us got the info in the first place.

Yeah Ghost, your right, but were making it even easier,the crooks don't even have to leave the house! Do you remember those Maryland boys who stole all those cars from Carlsile! Those boys made it look easy! One of the cars was a 68 Hemi SuperBee! I would sure hate to lose something like that! I work at a prison,that accounts for my trust no one attitude! Crooks are lazy,if they weren't they would just get a job,and go to work for what they want like the reat of us! There are people using the very same computers to steal peoples identity,while we are discussing this! If they want your Mopar,they will take that too! I'm around these people every day,after enough years you start to think like them,only us honest people can use this knowledge to defend ourselfs!

Ive walked up to countless cars over the years at various shows like mopar nats for every year.And the numbers are out in the open to record.And in the early days of the number of clubs I was in They published owners vins state and the plate in early wingcar club newsletters.And at a show if a dash was covered.The hood was up to see the numbers on the fender tag.Or record down the plates.And nowadays you can go on to barett jackson and check past auctions and the vins are there as well I didnt start this trend .Also I have the superbird #1920 list and #501 shipment lists all with vins.And all through out the internet I see these vins fender tags out there.It sad about that 68 Hemi car lost it was moparts user limellite aeros car.There is still to this day a stolen never found XX29L9B381547 B5 blue daytona of DR Stuart Springer.That was in a locked garage stolen in 89-90.There was even a story in MCG where some guys were chased down in a reported stolen white 69 charger.That was recovered and the center of ignition switch was ripped out.On a car that doesnt have a locking steering column.Numbers out there our not .This stuff sorry to say will still continue to take place.Its the bad end of the hobby.And current rising values attract this bad attention

Chargervert, I disagree that discussing some VIN's as we have been is putting the owners of these cars in danger of having them stolen.  While I admit that there is some slight chance that a person could piece together enough information to use in a fraudulent manner, there is a whole internet world of other methods and means at their disposal which would give them much greater chances of finding whatever they're looking for in the way of automobiles.  

Your example of the happenings at Carlisle a few years ago has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.  If anything, that example would serve as a reason never to take our cars out of their garages for fear of having them spied and identified as something of value to be stolen.  I will willingly take that chance.  If someone wants to steal my cars, they could certainly do that (you're right, it doesn't take much to hot-wire one of these).  If they want it that badly, they will find a way to take it, and discussions in a forum such as this won't really enable them to take action that they wouldn't have a thousand easier ways to accomplish anyway.

I hear you on the depths that the human race is capable of stooping to.  I own a commercial/industrial construction company, and have done three jobs in Missouri Sate Prisons, and regularly work around Missouri's Probation and Parole Offices.  I have more than a few stories to tell about what people are capable of, as I'm sure you do as well.

There's no obligation for anyone to post their cars' information on here, or with the various Registries - even though I know that most of the Registry guys wouldn't think of divulging the information entrusted to them.  I just hate to see others being openly discouraged from doing so.  IMHO that only serves to hurt the hobby, rather than "protecting" it.  

If anything, we should all be encouraging one another to make sure your insurance levels are carried high enough, the right type of policies are written, and the cars well-documented so that when the crooks do strike (as I'm sure they would even if the internet and registries all shut down tomorrow) the owner of the car would be properly compensated for their loss.  

I've actually been able to use certain threads about similar cars on both this site and Moparts to help establish the value of both my cars with my insurance carriers.  My point is:  Suppressing the exchange of information can have just as potentially harmful an affect as you are indicating currently exists.

Just another opinion from the opposite point of view...

[/rant]

Dave, we have discussed this before, I'm not trying to piss on everyones parade, I'm just saying we should be a little more careful with VINs. Why make it easy! I just don't want to see anyone loose an irreplacble car!!

I don't want to mension names, but on one thread the name,address,phone number,and VIN number,of a friend of mines Daytona,was posted on one of the threads, Anyone who read that thread could have gone right to the guys house,called the phone number to make sure the guy wasn't home,and made off with his car,that has been in the family since 1973! I really appreciate the info that yoyu guys share with everyone! Its extrmely facinating,But I don't think it is necessary to post the entire number to make your point! Thats just my opinion!

These days it doesnt take much to zero in on etc info.Go on the internet and use a street name
etc to gain info reverse looks up with names and more done on the home PC.Or see a car outside and get the address on a internet look up .In turn will get you a phone number and a map from there to the address. .And vin number issue may seem like a problem.As if somones determined to steal a car.The internet offers up a big head start.But
chargervert I do see and understand your point

I'm just lookin out for us guys,Dave. To me posting that much info,is like giving out your social security number! If you did that, the identity theifs would have about 30 credit cards out in your name in the amount of time it takes to read this response! When I type a VIN,I use the ***** for the last 3 or 4 digits of the sequence number! We know what cars we are talking about just by the first seven digits. Maybe I think a little different,because I work around criminals all day! But I would rather be careful,than sorry!

This 69 hemi 500 a original automatic car#2243** .Some along the line it was changed to a 4 speed.But the good news is the # matching number automatic trans was located not long ago.It was once owned by P Halidman and pictured in automotive quartely .And also this board users 69 500s dad owned it in the 80-s.And this 500 resides near me sitting in a garage.On this page from 1976 street cars magazine shown bellow.It might of been in the hand before Pete H .I recall maybe Steve Hargrove.This is the magazine I mentioned to 69 500.I have somewhere

Chargervert, there's a difference between being cautious with VIN's, and flat-out discouraging people to send any information whatsoever into the Registries, as you have already done.  

I would ask you to explain how even listing a VIN in a thread puts a car in danger of being stolen, much less registering a car with a no-access registry such as the '69 and '70 Charger Registries.  There's a plethora of VIN information available from a number of different venues, not just here.  I will grant you that it's not necessary to put the owner's full name and distinguishable location out there, but listing a VIN is hardly the key ingredient to the theft of a car (pun intended).  A trip to any car show would yield as many VIN's (and more importantly, license plate numbers!!) as a thieving musclecar crook could ever want.  To me, no specific location/identification = no problem.

If you carry your logic to its direct conclusion, you should never title or register your car with any State DMV.  Why?  Because you then make that information potentially available and someone might use it to steal your car.  I refuse to live in fear.

I hope you won't continue to discourage people from helping the hobby out through the various Registries...  IMHO that is a disservice to all of us.

:Twocents:

There are these little tiitle companys that advertise all over.And just ask for that kind of info .And will send you paperwork or maybe even a out of state a title .But it would be a duplicate .To ones original paperwork if it came down to prove who claims to own whoms car.Are most likely everyones concern

My thoughts on it are like this. I have no problem listing my own VIN or fender tag information. Because that is my car. I will refrain from posting anyone else's full VIN from now on in an open forum if it bothers some people. I would like to see a complete registry for cars such as 500's but I really don't think that is going to be possible. Too many of the cars are unaccounted for, and too many of these cars were probably crushed many years ago. Many people can't distinguish anything different from a 500 and a 69 R/T at first glance anyways, or they think its modified by the owner not a factory car so they pay no attention to it.

I don't see the harm in someone listing the VIN to a car or its VON if they don't divulge where the car is located. IE if i said car 224393 is a 440 Charger 500, does that tell you anything else? NO, it doesn't tell you that it is my car and in Indianapolis Indiana that is for sure. So if you really wanted to spend the $15 per state and take a shot at all 50 just to find one car, then I say that you are willing to do anything else to get the car too, so not much I can do will deter you anyways. I realize there is a chance one day someone could steal my car, but someoe could also break into my house and kill my child. But does t hat keep me from telling people on here that his name is Dakota Liebrandt? No.

Yes, I understood before how title fraud can occur, but that still does not mean that a car is then stolen as a direct result of that information.  Crooks can still find a car, and steal it.  Not an impossible task, grant you.  BUT, stealing it with the intention of using a fraudulent title to publicly maintain possession wouldn't stand court scrutiny if push ever came to shove.  The situation with the wheel-standing General Lee had a whole lot more to it than someone finding a VIN and having a bogus title made up.  I've read the stories too, years back.

I'll take this challenge any day.  If anyone wants to try and take VIN XS29J9G210100, bring it on.  Same goes for XX29L9B412543.

(http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Samurai.gif)

(http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Soapbox.gif)

(http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Rant-Off.gif)

My friends AC 69 500.I passed on in 78 at the bottom.Along with some of my old cars yellow actually triple black 440-6 cuda and bench column AT T/A

If you got some extra time to read all these pages there was alot on 69 charger 500's discussed on here


http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=585449&an=0&page=0#585449

Hey Geno, I'm just lookin out for people,the values of these cars have skyrocketed in the last ten years,and anything that becomes valuable,becomes a target for thieves! If you want to put yours out there,then thats your buisness,but listing VIN numbers of cars you don't own,is a different thing! With computers,it is easy to fabricate fradulent paperwork! If you don't think people can't find out where you live or where you keep your prized Dodge,then your being gulible! I can't even tell you how many cars I have found by word of mouth! I have had people come up to me at shows,and tell me that Joe Blow has a wingcar,in this town,and he keeps it at so and sos shop etc... A milloin times! I have bought more cars that way! If you think that someone else dosen't know where you keep your car, then your foolin yourself! And unless you plan to sleep in it 24/7 with a big ass shot gun,then you may want to be more causious with the info! thats all I was trying to say! If your car has seen the light of day in the last twenty years,then mark my words someone has seen it! And that same scumbag,who just happened by your place,the last time you had it out,was just watching Barret Jackson on Speed vision,and just saw one just like yours rake in a cool six figures,don't you think hes gonna say I saw one of those over at such and such shop! That was the point! I just hope no one has to lose a car to prove it!

Daytona and 500 Registrations from  1976 wing warrior newsletter.It reads how many of you daytona and chargers 500 owners have the problem of possesing a registration slip showing maybe XS on the paperwork instead of XX.Well if you want to correct this error.Then heres what Mike Mcguire says you have to go through to straighten the matter out.As he had the same problem with his daytona.You write to James H Kilroy chrysler corporation office of civic affairs P.O. Box 1919 Detroit Michigan 48231.Include a copy of the title and picture of the car.And if possible a picture of the serial number on the dash.Or from the engine compartment plate.We recommend you use the dash.As we have seen a case where they even put XS on the engine compartment plate instead of XX as was on the dash.Mr Klilroy will inturn respond with a letter to your state DMV notorized stating he correct serial number.And they will in turn change the registration.Most of these problems were caused by an erroneous statement on the the factory title of origin.And in this case the mistake was made on Mikes Daytona.


Troy hemi68charger says on this post his car has XX dash but XS on the title

And 69 Charger 500 was asking if even a XS 500 existed

On the other hand, it's part of the unique history of these cars.  If I had one, I would leave it as is.

Chargervert (is your name Pete, by the way??), the fact that my car has seen the light of day (120 mile cruise on Saturday, to be exact!) in the last 20 years is exactly MY point.  It doesn't take a thread on an enthusiast's website like this one for people to take notice of any musclecar.  People absolutely do know where I live, and I'm not that hard to find if someone wanted to do so.  A guy from Saskatchewan tracked my home phone number down without too much trouble after seeing just a picture of my truck & car, my name, and the town I'm from in Musclecar Enthusiast magazine.  He said it took him all of about 15 minutes. You've made the exact point I was trying to make - it is easy to track down the location of a car if you really wanted to.  No way, no how does it take a VIN to do that, and I fail to see how a VIN significantly aids in that task either.  And oh-by-the-way, Musclecar Enthusiast magazine did not get my permission before printing my name/location, nor do I really care that they did.  MoparMuscle did not print my name when they later put a picture of my rig in their mag, but you could partially make out the name printed on the side.  If MCGuide does the spread on the truck that they took the pictures for, it'll be almost impossible for someone to not know the general vicinity I live in, and if they asked almost anyone around this small town I live in, chances are someone would know.  That's even without using the internet (and certainly not this forum) to find my address.

I still strongly disagree with you that fraudulent documentation (let me again underscore FRAUDULENT), produced by shady, disreputable companies from just a car's VIN number, would EVER stand up under legal scrutiny.  If Hagerty Insurance has to pay me well in excess of six figures if either of my cars suddenly disappear, they will have an army of lawyers going after whoever tries to title the car in their name with a flimsy title from one of those companies.  I'd pay money to see how they'd slice and dice up the perpetrators of that fiasco.

The whole point I'm trying to make in this rabbit-trail issue is that simply posting or discussing a VIN does NOT increase the danger of a car being stolen.  Not a single point has been made to lead me to believe this is the case.  There might be other ways that the risk could be increased, but listing a VIN is not one of them.  Posting a picture with a visible/discernable license plate would be a whole lot more risky, but I haven't seen the same outrage expressed over that...   :scratchchin:

Lots of other issues have been brought up about car theft, parts theft, etc., but there is a total lack of correlation between those crimes and the purported misuse of information from forum discussions.  While I respect your right to hold the opinions you've expressed, I do not see the connection at all.  If you wish to make the statement that it's not the best thing to post full owner's names and specific locations of cars without permission, that's fine.  Point taken, and it's not one I would have argued about in the first place.  To stifle the discussion of any VIN, or participation in the respective Registries, solely for the sake of the unfounded fears expressed thus far is a shame IMHO.

I'll sleep soundly tonight, and certainly not in the backseat of my car with a shotgun.

:Twocents:

An ironic discussion considering how the whole purpose of visible vins was to thwart car thieves.

Okay so can we get back to the topic at hand?


How many 500's do you guys think were built?


I personally still feel the 392 number is correct, but possibly even on the high side. As I stated before I talked to a gentleman who was in charge of quality control at Chrysler in 1969, and his part to control was the cars sent out to Creative Industries. He told me that he doubts they even made 392 of the 500's, as it was a lot easier to make up some fraudulent paperwork than it was to make an actual 500 street units.

Quote from: 69_500 on January 10, 2006, 06:22:50 AM
Okay so can we get back to the topic at hand?


How many 500's do you guys think were built?


I personally still feel the 392 number is correct, but possibly even on the high side. As I stated before I talked to a gentleman who was in charge of quality control at Chrysler in 1969, and his part to control was the cars sent out to Creative Industries. He told me that he doubts they even made 392 of the 500's, as it was a lot easier to make up some fraudulent paperwork than it was to make an actual 500 street units.

You might want to go back and read the first 4 pages Danny.  It seems there is still no proper answer.   :horse:

Nope they havent pinned it down to a exact standing number.But they have been turning more of them up

Well I put in a follow-up call with the folks at Chrysler Historical, and am waiting to hear back from them.  I'm going to contact Galen as well, since he recently asked me for some information he knows I got from Chrysler Historical back in the '80s---maybe he will trade some info for some info!!!

Here goes.....

Hey Geno,I met you at the Mopar Nats,I was talking to you and Dan. My name is Pete. My point wasn't to bash the registries,it was to say that some people wan't there info kept confidential. I'm one of those people. I dont see why people cant make these point,by saying XS29L9B172***, I know what you are talking about without giving all the info! That was my point! Just ask Dave how long it took him to find out where I keep my cars! I bet it took under 2 minites! The person who posted the info about my friends Daytona,used the info given to one of those registries to do so! that was the point! Some of you guys are a wealth of information! I doubt the "Guru" has anywhere near the amount of info that you guys here on the board have! I enjoy reading all the threads,as they are a learning experience for me! I also try to pass on the info that I have,and the experiences I have had since the day in 1970,when my parents brought home that New Charger R/T SE,that got me interested in these cars! I'm just trying to be causious thats all!

I read the first 4 pages of this thread. I read all the replies in this thread. I was just saying get back on topic of how many were produced rather than start arguing over other things.

Pete I talked to you at Carlisle as well, you were very nice to me there too. Every time I have chatted to you in person you have been extremely kind to me. There have been very few people that I have met over the years at car shows that don't treat many people kindly. i can say that in my lifetime I can count on one hand the people that just came accross as real jerks when I met them at a car show.

Now, does anyone know where Galen comes up with the number of 575 or is it 580 now? I had heard that it was from a shipment list that is like the Daytona shipment list. However as I stated earlier I talked to people who were at Chrysler in 69 overseeing the 500's and Daytona's and they all said that it is highly unlikely they built more than 392 if they even actually built 392 of them.

The registrys if you can call these my registrys.They where more of a type of club.They gathered all types of car info in the early 75 -79 days.The 2 clubs at this time who had specialized in these cars was winged warriors /superbird daytona clubs.They made readily available to any club member who had recieved a newsletter.They had pages and pages of names vins and plate numbers etc available to there readers at that time.Now there is a current #501 all daytona vin list available from readership to the winged warrior club readers.And I have from 1977 or 78 ,The superbird #1920 book of all superbird vins from club membership.All easily obtained.I dont need to outsource for info .Ive had this info from way back then till now .But know its considerd sacred



I know what you are talking about without giving all the info! That was my point! Just ask Dave how long it took him to find out where I keep my cars! I bet it took under 2 minites! The person who posted the info about my friends Daytona,used the info given to one of those registries 
 
  AS to my vast archives  :yesnod:.Google a name town or PH #Phonebook results for kenneth La**** chepach** RI
Kenneth F L, (4**) 56*-53**, 31 Wilmar** Rd, Are easy to look up.When just or name.And or name and town or just the town are supplied to whoever.Is reading someone elses posts that contains the other partys supplied such info on a thread.It can be easily looked up on the internet.In minutes as leaving a PH# in a parts ad nets you a address 
Peter C*******, (4**) 7**-47**, 2** Sw*** Ave, Paw****, RI 028** Google Maps  Yahoo! Maps  MapQuest
Robin C*******, (4**) 7**-47**, 2**
Sw*** Ave, Paw*****, RI 028** Google Maps  Yahoo! Maps  MapQuest

I don't think its considered sacred today either. I do understand what Pete is saying about VIN's that is understandable, somewhat. To me I don't think its that big of a deal, but if others feel that way then that is fine too.

The problem is that there is no such list for the 500's like there is for the other aero cars.

The only numbers I can recall was about 63 65 cars with actual vins in the 79 reader newsletters.Then in 89 went into 181 actual vins.And believe by 90 over 400 or more cars claimed to be made.With nothing other as documentation as to no published list of 400 of numbers.We are just going on somebodys elses word that they have actual verified accountable cars in those numbers.As with the introduction of the daytona shipment list started of as #385 verified vins .And a later more pages came around the list stands at #501 verified daytona vins. But how many 69 charger 500 verifiable listable vins are known as of this day.Thats the question.Did as was early suggested they BS paperwork to make the numbers they needed.And not a true amount of real cars.Or is this list being suppresed as it would prove that fact.??

I think the list is being suppressed because it would show fraudulent numbers. Numbers that are known to go to other cars other than even a charger. Like a Coronet VIN number with the Charger prefix, to just make it appear on paper as 500 XX cars were built.

Well there is definitely something up, or it wouldn't be a big deal to publish the list, right?  The funny thing is, the only benefit any of us would have from the "list" is to better understand these obscure cars we have taken the time and care to preserve and enjoy, for everyone's benefit...

Which is why I believe the 392 number.

That 392 number has been around along time.I got another newsletter dug out of 79 vintage that says as to charger 500 and daytonas amounts.Seems years ago chrysler shredded up all the 68-69 paperwork.So unless its still on microfilm.That informatation will be lost forever.Know we wait and see if that 392 # .Will stand up the test of time.And if there is duplicate records existing.

 :popcrn:   Damn my head hurts after catching up on 4 pages of reading this thread!

I still think its closer to the 392 cars. I mean, I hear what people are saying about how the clubs had 80 cars then, it went to 181 and then about ten years later it ballooned to 400+, but I can't find anything anywhere to show where those other 200+ cars came from. Or if anyone actually saw all of them, or if someone just called in with a list of VIN's or it was on Chrysler paperwork or what. I mean how can Galen verify there are 580 Charger 500's when nobody else has ever ran accross a single one of these cars? I thought his list had only like 181 listed as known to him? So where are the other 399 cars?

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 10, 2006, 11:16:31 PM
:popcrn:   Damn my head hurts after catching up on 4 pages of reading this thread!

The same posts going over and over and over and over.......

Testing 1 2 3

How about a different question then, how many 500's are known to people? I have 166 VIN's in my list.

What do you think the survival rate is on 500's?  The same as other 69 Chargers, lower, higher?

percentage-wise, I think the attrition was slightly lower then a normal Charger due to some knew they were special to begin with........

Troy

I would think that would make the attrition rate lower than normal.

Quote from: Ghoste on January 11, 2006, 06:50:30 PM
I would think that would make the attrition rate lower than normal.

My bad, that's what I meant to say.. I've editted my initial comment...  lol

As high as 50%?

I'm going to say that the survival rate of charger 500's is probably right around 60-65%. That is just a guess. But I'm basing that on figuring that there were only 392 built, and I'd say that eventually we will have a list of 200+ known to exist cars.

lol, you're using the 392 number to set a survival rate and I was hoping that if enough people chimed in on an agreed survival rate we could theorize a total.
This is fun but I don't think we'll ever know.  Our time would be much better spent tracking down all the ones that are left.

I try to do that every day as it is. I'll personally stick to the 392 number, until I see more than that number, as in SEE MORE CARS THAN 392. Until then, its hard to swallow for me personally.

I know I know, digging up old trash.

But I was wondering if anyone has heard anything back from 69Charger500. I haven't noticed him posting on here in a long time. I was wondering if anyone had ever heard his response to his question at Chrysler Historical.

I was talking to him at a show back in June and he never mentioned anything.  He has a lot on his plate right now I think.

Do you happen to have any contact info for him? Just curious.

Somewhere.  I remember that he worked for Chrysler.  Let me check through my ever growing pile of Charger crap.

No pile of Charger papers is crap is it? Not to me anyways.

I don't know.  I can't find things when I need them so it sure doesn't make them useful.  I did find a pic I took of his car from this past summer.  The only note I have on it is "Mike's car".  That isn't too helpful is it?

Helpful in that I had forgot his name, but rememberd the VIN to his car, is that odd?

Quote from: 69_500 on October 27, 2006, 03:31:15 PM
Do you happen to have any contact info for him? Just curious.

His profile shows he was last here on October 14th.  Try sending him a PM.   :shruggy:

Still here...

Just been pretty busy with the new program!

I'll call over to the Museum today and see what ever came of the inquiry to Galen...

As more time goes by, I like the 500s more and more.  They are definitely very unique and interesting cars, and seem to be gaining in awareness and popularity.

Good to hear from you guys...

He's alive, and posting even.

Only kidding.

So how is the challenger project coming? I hope its affordable.
The prototype was a great looking ride.

The new car is beyond belief!  Can't say much more about it than that, though...

I checked with the folks at the WPC Museum, and they did indeed contact Galen about "the list."  Galen wouldn't disclose any details, however, wants the Museum to give him more build records for his files!! DCX will not release the individual build records he is after without proof of ownership, I was informed...

My friend at the museum and I discussed the differences between supporting a hobby, and running a business!!  Apparently, he told Galen that DCX is running a business as well!!

Anyway, he said he'd call and ask again about "the list"....

Man I wish they had some way to really lean on him to give them the list back. I mean odd's are he got it from them without a price included.

OH well he can't live forever.

I was going to put up a post telling how I felt about "gurus".  I changed it three times and decided to just leave it at this;  :flame:

Ah come on tell us how you really feel about guru's. Or are you refering to the one who calls himself a guru. There are many people I'd call a guru about things. However I don't think anyone can be a guru on all Mopars. I think there are people who can be a guru for a certain type or era. I can think of a half dozen people I"d reference for an aero car question way before I'd ask the "guru".

 :yesnod:

 :o

Wow that much to say about them huh? JK

Well I'm still hoping that they only made 392 of them.

I spent 8 hours yesterday putting my information on 500's into a spreadsheet. Thanks to Gene for sending me a spreadsheet he had set up for Daytona's. However I added about 10 other categories to sort cars by.

I have them by VIN, SO, Build Date, Color, Interior Color, Transmission, Engine, A01, A04, A11, A31, A32, A33, A34, A35, A36, A47, B31, B41, B51, C16, C21, C55, G11,G15, G21,G31,G33,H31,H51, J25,J46,L31,M05,M21,M25,M31,N85,N88,P31,R11,R13,   R21,R22,R31,V88,Y39,Radiator,END.

Now all I need is to get more information on cars.

I've made my feelings known about Galen before.  He does many good things for the hobby but he has done a lot of things I don't agree with too.  I think that for the most part, he has moved into the world of personal consultant to the heavyweight collectors of Hemi Cuda verts and such.
I'm quite a bit more comfortable to consult people like you or any of the folks who run the registries for any of the guroovy knowledge I might need. ;D

Ah man pulling out words like GROOVY, that is before my time. I don't think I was even born by the time people stopped using that word.

Only kidding.

So Ghoste how long until you actually purchase a 500 of your own?

I don't know.  I was whining to my wife about that yesterday as a matter of fact and as it happened I used you as an example.  She was yapping about taxation rates in the US and how much more disposable income you folks had.  My point to her was that yes, we have higher taxes but between the two of us we make a lot of money so how the hell come I have a car parked in the garage that I don't even like that much.  I don't dislike it, I just.  Well, you know... it ain't a 500 and that just sits under my skin and festers.
At this point, I'd be happy just to move up two model years. :shruggy:

Oh, and the "guroovey" thing comes from an inside joke that myself and a couple of people share.  Sorry about that, I shouldn't throw that foolishness out to the general public.

Its all good and fun.

Hey if you want a 500 you can take mine. I'd rather have a 4 speed car. You buy my car, and I'll look for a 4 speed one.

why not just convert your auto over to a 4-speed?  thats what i'm gonna do........                        someday........         before i die. :-\

I have thought about that, but I'm thinking since its a #'s matching car I don't wanna mess with that. I'll leave it uncut and go find a 4 speed to toy with. Its not like 500's are that hard to find. JK

I'll find one some day..

I'd love to buy your car Danny but it's probably worth as much as my house.  My co-signer (aka, she who must be obeyed) ain't ever going to go for that.

Nah my car is cheap. Its not perfect, it needs quite a bit. Well I wouldn't say cheap, but if I  was to sell it I wouldn't want top dollar, just enough to pick up the project I want.

Well, who knows, something may happen one day.

69 500 do you have these 500s Vins.   9B220085 , 9B220087 , 9B224396

Arrow, to answer your question. I have the VIN's to all 3 of those cars. Isn't one of those your car? I however don't have the fender tag informatino for 220085, or 220087.

224396 is my fathers old Charger 500. Red with a black vinyl top.

Hey Ghoste a side note, I got word today that a HEMI 4 speed B5 blue 500 will be coming up for sale soon.


Side note here, does anyone have any information on these 2 Charger 500's? The VON on the first one is 925009. The VON on the second one is 925627. Any additional information would be appreciated.

Soon as in "Arizona in mid-winter" soon?

No soon, as in the next few days.

Project car too boot.

Quote from: 69_500 on November 09, 2006, 06:58:56 PM
No soon, as in the next few days.

Project car too boot.

Are you planning on buying it?

If not, would you care to share some more information about it so perhaps someone else on this site might want to?

Quote from: 69_500 on November 09, 2006, 06:35:14 PM
Hey Ghoste a side note, I got word today that a HEMI 4 speed B5 blue 500 will be coming up for sale soon.


Side note here, does anyone have any information on these 2 Charger 500's? The VON on the first one is 925009. The VON on the second one is 925627. Any additional information would be appreciated.

Danny, that car wouldn't happen to be in New York would it?........

Troy

See Shakey, there aren't many secrets in the aero car cult.  To mere mortals such as you and I maybe but those guys all know what one another are doing.

Green hemi 500 car J9B238096 .D Moody Ohio

Thanks Dave. I made a typo when I did a search for it in my new spreadsheet. Don is a very interesting person to talk to.



Troy, no the Hemi 500 isn't in New York. Do you know of a B5 blue HEMI 500 in NY? I don't.

The asking price for the car is going to be in the $75,000 range. Its numbers matching, 4 speed, HEMI 500. Project car, but complete.

Quote from: dayclona on January 07, 2006, 01:44:28 AM

Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 07, 2006, 12:47:45 AM
This might be near you ever been .To the Newport Auto Museum In RI. Ive heard they might have a daytona in there XX29L9B390009. that sold brand new in Providence RI. Ever see this car.I was going to ask about that car and car museum   on a post .Figured you live near that area.Figure I run it past you .I   couldnt pm it to you Ive only had that 1920 serial number book that goes up to #1920 since 77 78.I knew where some cars were from back in my days .Do you recall the 70 white red interior PW cuda 426 conv that was in north NJ .I knew of since the 80-s. and didnt bother with with it I was then and still into the wingcarsThat car went to MA for $465K when the story broke in MCG

Dave, never seen or heard of newport auto museum?.......however as I said before, about seeing real paperwork! car #390009, never made it to Elwood Dodge rt 44 East Providence R.I. 02903. the dealer reasigned  it to another dealer, in an other state,never entered R.I. dealership, I know this as fact! as I've researched this car, and its paperwork,owner,(original)...................I will not list its present location, sorry!..................as far as 70 white hemi conv, yes the buyer is somewhat of a regular vendor at the local swapmeets in the Conn.,R.I., Mass, area......always advertising want ads for cuda convs.,hemi E-bodies, parts, etc...............................hope this helps dave!

If anyone knows who has this car,  :shruggy: I have the broadcast sheet from this car (XX29L9B390009) It appears to be a B5 car.  I have car XX29L9B390010. 

 :wave:  hello & welcome  (Green DAYTONA)      :cheers:   .......    :popcrn:

    :cheers:   :2thumbs:

I will check into those 2 cars.See what I can find on each .the Newport RI car can be found online for sale

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/100_1069.jpg)

So anyone have a new guess on how many 500's were actually built? I'm  still sticking with 392.

That's still the number I'm hanging onto until someone can prove better.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,40155.msg443168.html#msg443168. But then you see same vin cars going to two different dealers.as these NJ 69 Charger 500/s.Right there is a inaccurate accounting
. Page 1
January 5, 2000

G. T .S. Route 1, Box 322K 37002 Sand Burr Lane Prairie du Chien, WI 53821-9801

gvgovier@mhtc.net
www.gvgovier.com



Dear David,

Hope you had a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Received your letter and I will answer
your questions.   .
1. I have seen that Warranty Validation sticker before. I had a 1969 Charger RT and it was on the
   door jamb where the oil change stickers usually go.
2. I do not have a Dealer Name for # 57097. The next batch I send in I will inquire. My contact is a bit
   behind on requests because he is very busy at Chrysler or should I say Daimler-Chrysler.
3. Here is a list of all 1969 500.s Charger sold new in New Jersey:



COAST DODGE INC   1201 Main Street   Ashbury Park   NJ   XX29L9B152199        
ED VAN NESS MOTORS INC   770 Fairview Avenue   Fairview   NJ   XX29L9B210711        
FREEHOLD DODGE INC   Lakewood Road   Freehold   NJ   XX29L9B152198        
NEMITH CIRCLE DODGE INC   821 New Loudon Rd   Latham   NJ   XX29L9B199669        
NEWARK DODGE INC   11-21 Sussex Avenue   Newark   NJ   XX29L9B162292        
            XX29L9B21710        
NORTH PLAINFIELD DODGE INC   555 Somerset Street   North Plainfield   NJ   XX29L9B144160        
            XX29L9B146045        
            XX29L9B162291        
DE MAIO OODGE INC   36 Main Street   Orange   NJ   XX29L9B162292        
LABRIOLA MOTORS INC   120 E. Newman Springs Road   Red Bank   NJ   XX29L9B150548        
FOWLER MOTORS INC.   Route #15   Searta   NJ   XX29L9B144173        
RIDGE DODGE INC   85 Route #17   Woodridge   NJ   XX29L9B162294   

Quote from: nascarxx29 on December 25, 2008, 09:57:08 PM
2. I do not have a Dealer Name for # 57097. The next batch I send in I will inquire.

57097   Van Ness Dodge Inc. 1595 Van Ness Ave San Francisco Ca

#27                               Found a few on the web these accounted for
1969 Charger 500
XX29J9B138602
B5 blue, B4 blue int, currently has a 440 in it, dressed as a
1969 Dodge Charger 500
#29
XX29J9B
robl@acronet.net
F8 Dark Green F8 interior, auto trans
Daytona, 7700 orig miles, disc brake car, 6 way seat
dartgts@bellsouth.net
# 51
1969 Hemi Charger 500
XX29J9B 210xxx

Name: Chris Perry
Email: Sutton@dancris.com

69,000 original miles all matching drivetrain.  4-speed, 3:54 Dana
# 58
1969 Dodge Charger 500
VIN: XX29J9B******
Email: ben@sonshinestudios.com

30,550 original miles. Color is dark green with black stripes, automatic
on floor, gold/green bucket seats, tinted windows, PS, PDB (front only.)
Styled steel wheels.  Not running, missing original engine would like to
find it.

Dave I believe that 3 of the cars you posted about are owned by members of this board.

Im always looking around for the undiscovered.Would be nice some day to see this #537 69 charger 500 shiplist .Like the daytonas have
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/numbers500.jpg)

Of course to date, Galen is the only one who has ever seen the sacred secret list.   :eyes:  Yeah, he's all about advancing the hobby isn't he?

What it sounds like Galen has is the list of cars and dealers referenced in Bill France's telegram to Ford racing boss Jacque Passino, which called out 540 cars.   Link below.

http://www.superbirdclub.com/C500Passino.html (http://www.superbirdclub.com/C500Passino.html)

Well what I can say for certain is that there are heck of a lot more than the number of HEMI cars that he list in that letter.

Quote from: Ghoste on December 27, 2008, 06:15:08 PM
Of course to date, Galen is the only one who has ever seen the sacred secret list.   :eyes:  Yeah, he's all about advancing the hobby isn't he?

:ohhthesarcasm: :icon_smile_approve:  :icon_smile_big:

The list of 500 dealers and cars he mentioned .Is consistant with my page of NJ cars as they have the same car going to 2 different dealers

DE MAIO DODGE INC   36 Main Street   Orange   NJ   XX29L9B162292       
NEWARK DODGE INC   11-21 Sussex Avenue   Newark   NJ   XX29L9B162292       
           

Dave I believe that one the sheets that you have for NJ though, it also has some cars listed as both 440 cars and HEMI cars. IE same VIN other than the "J" or "L".

 You suppose it was done for the holmogation requirements :shruggy:.Numbers of dealers required X number of cars .And by 2 cars at different dealers .Same vins different engine codes etc.That was the intended purpose??.I was interested to see if my friends B5 blue AC 500 originated from NJ.And the list had no Hemi cars on it .But my friends 500 came from MO later we found out.Dave Patik gave us our first clue when he seen the anti freeze decal.Said it was different  .And I tracked down the 2 past owners.And it sold from Shelby Mo E & E Equupment

Quote from: 69_500 on December 28, 2008, 12:49:41 PM
Dave I believe that one the sheets that you have for NJ though, it also has some cars listed as both 440 cars and HEMI cars. IE same VIN other than the "J" or "L".

I hear what your saying about the switched engine letters .I seen it mentioned before by Hemi geno on this hemi daytona.I had copy of its sheet 3 computers ago located the copy.   Hemi geno replied  did you notice that the VIN on this T5 car was listed incorrectly on the Dealer Shipping List as a 440 car (XX29L9B)?  I have to make that correction to a "J" on my spreadsheets, although I would have been very reluctant to have done so without seeing the Broadcast Sheet or the VIN tag.  I also thought the car was pretty awesome - and it's probably a One-of-One car with that combo. 
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/BronzeDaytona.jpg) XX29J9B409075

   Nascarxx29, that almost lookas like it would be a twin to the car that has been on the auction block a few times and is now being restored again?

I'm not sure if the list was done up for any reason. The only thing I can logically think of  that the list of the "reported" 548 cars being made is solely for the list Doug mentioned that was supposed to show  the Ford company that they had indeed made the required 500+ units to use it in NASCAR. Which to me also means that they knew well enough to know that there was no way in the world they were going to travel around to all of the reported dealerships to see if those cars were actually there. I'd guess to the say that the list shows pretty accurately what cars went to say the Detroit area dealerships, and which ones went to the NC dealerships as well. But what were the odds that either Ford, or France was going to go to NJ or Montana, or even California to check to see if those cars were actually at those dealerships or if those cars were even made? They might have checked the local dealerships, but honestly I don't even think they did that much checking.

Quote from: 69_500 on December 28, 2008, 02:50:50 PM
I'm not sure if the list was done up for any reason. The only thing I can logically think of  that the list of the "reported" 548 cars being made is solely for the list Doug mentioned that was supposed to show  the Ford company that they had indeed made the required 500+ units to use it in NASCAR. Which to me also means that they knew well enough to know that there was no way in the world they were going to travel around to all of the reported dealerships to see if those cars were actually there. I'd guess to the say that the list shows pretty accurately what cars went to say the Detroit area dealerships, and which ones went to the NC dealerships as well. But what were the odds that either Ford, or France was going to go to NJ or Montana, or even California to check to see if those cars were actually at those dealerships or if those cars were even made? They might have checked the local dealerships, but honestly I don't even think they did that much checking.

The list would have been originally supplied to ACCUS, which is the Automobile Competition Committee for the United States.   ACCUS was the umbrella organization responsible for overseeing all racing in North America and would work with the various sanctioning bodies and manufacturers.   They were also responsible to making sure the minimum production runs had been completed.    The ACCUS memo to their board of directors dated 1/13/69 states that Lin Kuchler of NASCAR spot checked the first batch of 250 Charger 500s, and that ACCUS Technical Director John Oliveau would verify the second batch of 250 cars the following day.

ACCUS is still around    http://www.accusfia.us/ 

Wonder if they keep all their old records?   :icon_smile_question:

Didnt know if this helps but aside from ACCUS. Ive seen described as ACCUSFIA.I searched under and saw this site
http://www.nasarallysport.com/usac-accus.php

I searched a stack of old race newspapers .Thought there was something about ACCUS and a 69 charger 500.Didnt find exactly what I was looking for.But it appears to be the Jerry Service Prototype 500 with 68 marker lights.And something about The 500 will be powered by a 426 Hemi   { Just below the 430 cid limit now allowable for NASCA competetion
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/Early500.jpg)

What wheels are on the car in that pic?

good picture ..never seen that one before ....

Quote from: Ghoste on December 28, 2008, 11:30:28 PM
What wheels are on the car in that pic?

could they be KH recall wheels :scratchchin:
 
  :popcrn:

Not sure very skinny trim rings maybe Recalls.The autoracing newspaper was Jan 4 1969
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,20047.0.html

I was wondering about the K-H, so the wheels were likely added after the car was converted to a 500, correct?  I'd need to look at my pics but the car wears Road Wheels (Magnum 500) today does it not?

If it had started off with recalls.It got changed out to those polara type wheel covers.Is what I recall seeing on Mike Russos 500

Yeah that former Russo car is still sporting those deluxe Dodge wheelcovers.

Yeah but by Jan of 69 all of the W23's would have already been recalled. And I don't recall ever seeing the W23's on Jerry's car.

Side note, just wondering how they would have checked the first batch of 500's in january of 69 when there were already probably 75-80 of them out on the streets already in the possession of owners. I'm basing this on the date of pick up for some of the cars that I know of. Know of several cars that were picked up from the dealerships in November of 1968.

Wow there on Jerrys car with the 68 1/4 markers.I do remember some time line on the recall wheels August 13 1968
But I see its sept 1968
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/recalledntice.jpg)

Could that just be a file photo that Dodge had provided and taken well in advance of the January 69 date though?  That could also explain even a temporary wearing of the recall wheels if they were just "gussying" the car up a little for a photo op.

Hi Clan500,

Its taken me 4 hours to read this thread :o

I am a little concerned as there has been a VON # listed which is the same as my C500???

My VIN is 248662 and my VON is 925741.

This the same VON as the black Hemi 500 with the VIN 248663!

I was under the impression that my 440 4-speed C500 was the last non Hemi500 built on dec 19th.

The other point of concern is that my car is not on the published list of C500's.

Can anyone here solve these anomolies please? :shruggy:

Happy New Year to one and all.

EnglishJon.

The black hemi 500 248663 has a VON of 925742 though.

The only car with 925741 that I've heard of is your car Jon.

I don't think that there is an actual published list of known VIN's floating around out there. There is a list that the WW did years ago that has some VIN's listed, but its not all of them. I think they listed 165 or so back in the late 1980's as known cars. Since then I don't remember seeing any updated list being published anywhere.

Personally i think that there is a possibility of 2 other 440 powered 500's being built after yours (VIN wise that is). 248665 and 248666. I have not seen anything on 248664 or if it even exist. Yours is the highest VIN'ed 440 car that I've seen full information on. I do have some partial information on the 665 and 666 cars though.

Thanks 69_500.

I saw your thread-notes on page5, and you put 925741 for the Black500, and it got me thinking! ::)

Why you may ask???

Well, back in the dark and shady past of a certain German Fellow living in the US, he cloned up a Daytona using the numbers off my C500 dashtag!!! :icon_smile_dissapprove:

Then some poor unfortunate person was relieved of a large sum of money :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:

This all happened around ten years ago, and I believe the culprit has been apprehended at last :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

Don't know if unfortunate person were recompensed? :icon_smile_question:

So this thing does happen, and he was using my NUMBERS!!! :yesnod:

Be careful Fellow C500 owners.

Happy New Year One and ALL, EnglishJON. :cheers:

Quote from: 500Jon on December 31, 2008, 02:49:03 PM
Thanks 69_500.

I saw your thread-notes on page5, and you put 925741 for the Black500, and it got me thinking! ::)

Why you may ask???

Well, back in the dark and shady past of a certain German Fellow living in the US, he cloned up a Daytona using the numbers off my C500 dashtag!!! :icon_smile_dissapprove:

Then some poor unfortunate person was relieved of a large sum of money :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:

This all happened around ten years ago, and I believe the culprit has been apprehended at last :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

Don't know if unfortunate person were recompensed? :icon_smile_question:

So this thing does happen, and he was using my NUMBERS!!! :yesnod:

Be careful Fellow C500 owners.

Happy New Year One and ALL, EnglishJON. :cheers:

so did he make a new dash tag using your #'s or did he have your actual dash vin plate ?

Ive seen pictures of a yellow UK daytona .Is that a real car or a clone?

Went back and fixed the previous post, so now it should read correctly 925742.

So how many so far have people seen that have XS on the dash? I can think of 4 off hand, does anyone know of any more than that?

EnglishJON, we'd all be interested in hearing the details of the attempted cloning of your car.  Did they fabricate a Fender and/or VIN Tag for your car? 

Quote from: nascarxx29 on December 31, 2008, 03:28:12 PM
Ive seen pictures of a yellow UK daytona .Is that a real car or a clone?

Dave, if the one you're thinking of is the yellow car with wide tires that is routinely seen blasting down the dragstrip, it's a real car.  I think it was originally F6, but I'd have to check my notes tomorrow to confirm that.  A friend of the owner is a member on here.

[/hijack]

That yellow car I think I seen it in a magazine .I got featuring UK cars  http://www.classic-american.com/index.php  http://www.yanktanks.co.uk/camags/camags3.htm 

Bobs Daytona at Brooklands.jpg
Description: Bob Brown must win the longest owned prize.[As car is seen in Yellow] ]Other Bob Brown picture shows B5 Here is Bob`s Daytona in 1978 without the wing or nosecone
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/bobs_daytona_at_brooklands_136.jpg)


(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/bb_566.jpg)

Is this the car that was F6.Source of pictures and info was found here
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17995




Dave, if the one you're thinking of is the yellow car with wide tires that is routinely seen blasting down the dragstrip, it's a real car.  I think it was originally F6, but I'd have to check my notes tomorrow to confirm that.  A friend of the owner is a member on here.

Hi Clan500,

Bob Brown is one of the nicest guys ever to own an English Mopar.

He is one of the original UK 'Magnificent Seven' Wing car owners going back into the early 80's :2thumbs:

I have raced him several times on the UK Dragstrips, and he runs consistant low elevens :yesnod:

The German guy who faked up the daytona, made a rubbing of the dash tag and somehow made a resin copy :o :o :o

The whole affair was published in one of the Mopar journals, but I don't know which one?

Best wishes from freezing UK, Jon500 :icon_smile_cool:

Hey Jon, how were your holidays? Hope all is well, any progress on the 500? Best wishes to you as well, from freezing Mighigan.

WINGR

Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 01, 2009, 12:07:25 PM
Is this the car that was F6.Source of pictures and info was found here
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17995




Dave, if the one you're thinking of is the yellow car with wide tires that is routinely seen blasting down the dragstrip, it's a real car.  I think it was originally F6, but I'd have to check my notes tomorrow to confirm that.  A friend of the owner is a member on here.

Hi,

Bobs Daytona was definetly F6 from the factory. He once showed me the fender tag which is a bit rough in shape but mostly still readable. I am usally meeting him once a year at the Mopar Euronats.

There has been another 69 Daytona in he Uk, was a 440. 4-speed car, factory V2 but now more like K2. It was imported in 2000/2001. But the owner left the UK some years ago and retired to New Zealand. He took the Daytona and a 440+6 Bird with him.

Carsten

Quote from: fc7_plumcrazy on January 12, 2009, 06:24:07 AM
There has been another 69 Daytona in he Uk, was a 440. 4-speed car, factory V2 but now more like K2. It was imported in 2000/2001. But the owner left the UK some years ago and retired to New Zealand. He took the Daytona and a 440+6 Bird with him.

Carsten,

The Daytona you're thinking of is the "Cal Gas" Daytona owned by John H., now from New Zealand as you mentioned.  It was originally a V2 with black interior and a white stripe.  John is also a member on here (440mop).

Hi,

yes, that is the car. Didn't know he is on the board and the car is already known. Nice fellow talked to him at the Mopar Euronats in 2001.

The only other Daytona I can think off (despite the cars from Carlos Monteverdi) in europe is a F6 green Daytona which lives in norway now but I am sure you guys know already about it.

Carsten

Most likely the F 6 Carl Douglas Sweden daytona

I have read the old treads, yes it is the car went from Denmark to Norway a couple of years ago. Current Owner also has a FJ5 Hemi Bird

Carsten

Hi WingR

Happy New Year to you and all fellow Aero owners :cheers:

Its been the coldest December in thirty years :'(

Unfortunately I don't have heating in my garage, so all Moparwork has ground to a halt.
The weather broke today, so its noses to the grindstone again.

My friend Paul has his C500 in good shape for a return to the road this year :2thumbs:
I will get him to post some progress pictures asap!

I feel his C500 will be as good as any Restored Mopar here or anywhere in the US. :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:
Its a definite trophy winner and deservingly so :drool5:

As I don't have the finances of Paul, I will probably end up with a car of lesser standard, BUT.
I prefer to drive my cars, thats why I only ever wanted a bare bones 4-speed car. :2thumbs:

In my humble opinion, these cars were built to be driven :icon_smile_big:
Its a blessing, that with all the Euro regulations, I am still able to drive a forty year old missile :icon_smile_cool:
It makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck just thinking about it :drool5: :drool5: :drool5:

These special cars were built for one purpose, to go fast, :nana: and beat the opposition

Tata for now, Jon.

Would love to see some updated photo's of Pauls car. Last pictures I had seen of his car it was being torn down to start the work, that was probably 4-5 years ago though.

Quote from: 69_500 on January 14, 2009, 09:32:12 PM
Would love to see some updated photo's of Pauls car. Last pictures I had seen of his car it was being torn down to start the work, that was probably 4-5 years ago though.

Charger 500 pics  :popcrn:  :drool5: :2thumbs:

Quote from: WINGR on January 14, 2009, 11:33:05 PM

Quote from: 69_500 on January 14, 2009, 09:32:12 PM
Would love to see some updated photo's of Pauls car. Last pictures I had seen of his car it was being torn down to start the work, that was probably 4-5 years ago though.

Charger 500 pics  :popcrn:  :drool5: :2thumbs:

Hey you want em, you got em..  :icon_smile_big:   :icon_smile_big:   :icon_smile_big:


whoops ,.... wrong Paul..  :P

I want your car Paul...even though it's a rolling turd :D :nana: :icon_smile_big:

Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on January 15, 2009, 12:21:32 AM
I want your car Paul...even though it's a rolling turd :D :nana: :icon_smile_big:

Come get it so i can park in the garage. 

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 15, 2009, 12:49:49 AM

Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on January 15, 2009, 12:21:32 AM
I want your car Paul...even though it's a rolling turd :D :nana: :icon_smile_big:

Come get it so i can park in the garage. 

.......I'm coming! :drive: :icon_smile_big:

Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on January 15, 2009, 01:00:24 AM

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 15, 2009, 12:49:49 AM

Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on January 15, 2009, 12:21:32 AM
I want your car Paul...even though it's a rolling turd :D :nana: :icon_smile_big:

Come get it so i can park in the garage. 

.......I'm coming! :drive: :icon_smile_big:

not if i get there first    :smilielol: :smilielol:

Hey Paul, you need a place to park the 500? I have an empty spot in the garage. I was saving it for a Daytona but it won't be occupied for many years.

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 15, 2009, 12:20:36 AM

Quote from: WINGR on January 14, 2009, 11:33:05 PM

Quote from: 69_500 on January 14, 2009, 09:32:12 PM
Would love to see some updated photo's of Pauls car. Last pictures I had seen of his car it was being torn down to start the work, that was probably 4-5 years ago though.

Charger 500 pics  :popcrn:  :drool5: :2thumbs:

Hey you want em, you got em..  :icon_smile_big:   :icon_smile_big:   :icon_smile_big:


whoops ,.... wrong Paul..  :P

Thanks for the pic Paul, looks good. If I can get there before the other guys can I have her. Pleeeeease

It hasnt been above 0º since Monday.  My daily driver doesnt like it out in the c-c-c-cold... Brrrrrr.

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 16, 2009, 10:15:00 AM
It hasnt been above 0º since Monday.  My daily driver doesnt like it out in the c-c-c-cold... Brrrrrr.

i'll bring the camper special up , have TC ready for exchange 

Quote from: moparstuart on January 16, 2009, 11:14:14 AM

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 16, 2009, 10:15:00 AM
It hasnt been above 0º since Monday.  My daily driver doesnt like it out in the c-c-c-cold... Brrrrrr.

i'll bring the camper special up , have TC ready for exchange 

No way hose A. . you get the other one for the camper special.   :icon_smile_big:

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 16, 2009, 11:18:02 AM

Quote from: moparstuart on January 16, 2009, 11:14:14 AM

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 16, 2009, 10:15:00 AM
It hasnt been above 0º since Monday.  My daily driver doesnt like it out in the c-c-c-cold... Brrrrrr.

i'll bring the camper special up , have TC ready for exchange 

No way hose A. . you get the other one for the camper special.   :icon_smile_big:

ok i'll toss in the 69 runner, and i know you can use a couple more kids right .

Did I just read that right? You'll trade that RR for paul's 500?

Paul, I'd almost be tempted on that one, but then again its just a RR.

Quote from: 69_500 on January 16, 2009, 04:40:52 PM
Did I just read that right? You'll trade that RR for paul's 500?

Paul, I'd almost be tempted on that one, but then again its just a RR.

he has to take a couple kids too   :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:

Ah whats a couple more,  I mean he already has 2 and 1 on the way right? who would notice a few more right? They are probably quiet and entertained easily by video games right?

Quote from: 69_500 on January 16, 2009, 04:40:52 PM
Did I just read that right? You'll trade that RR for paul's 500?

Paul, I'd almost be tempted on that one, but then again its just a RR.

Umm no thanks, that was Stu's High School ride so i dont know what went on inside that car.  I'd have to gut the interior and put in new.   :lol:

Quote from: 69_500 on January 16, 2009, 04:44:36 PM
Ah whats a couple more,  I mean he already has 2 and 1 on the way right? who would notice a few more right? They are probably quiet and entertained easily by video games right?

Nope, #3 came along in July last year so right now i'm stopped at 3 with no intentions of trading my C500 for a station wagon. :'(

Quote from: PocketThunder on January 18, 2009, 03:26:13 PM

Quote from: 69_500 on January 16, 2009, 04:40:52 PM
Did I just read that right? You'll trade that RR for paul's 500?

Paul, I'd almost be tempted on that one, but then again its just a RR.

Umm no thanks, that was Stu's High School ride so i dont know what went on inside that car.  I'd have to gut the interior and put in new.   :lol:

Quote from: 69_500 on January 16, 2009, 04:44:36 PM
Ah whats a couple more,  I mean he already has 2 and 1 on the way right? who would notice a few more right? They are probably quiet and entertained easily by video games right?

Nope, #3 came along in July last year so right now i'm stopped at 3 with no intentions of trading my C500 for a station wagon. :'(

:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:   it was rusty and primered in High school , didnt see much action expect on the streets and the strip .

And here I was willing to part with a partially damaged Durango for the 500 paul. I mean it will seat 7 easily so you could have some more kids and be fine.

Quote from: 69_500 on January 18, 2009, 08:09:41 PM
And here I was willing to part with a partially damaged Durango for the 500 paul. I mean it will seat 7 easily so you could have some more kids and be fine.

Its not for lack of trying on my part!   :icon_smile_big:   :icon_smile_big:   :rofl:

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m144/dukeboy01/index.jpg)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m144/dukeboy01/rare041.jpg)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m144/dukeboy01/index22.jpg)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m144/dukeboy01/rare052.jpg)

Sorry i had too! :boogie:

Quote from: 69_500 on January 16, 2009, 04:44:36 PM
They are probably quiet and entertained easily by video games right?

I am!  and I bring spare parts!

Hi 500 Folks.
Haven't had time to read all this thread.
Sorry for restarting so long from its beginning!

My vin for last '440' 500 built is XX29 L9B 248662.
GG told me a while back that its the last 440 car built
Order number is 925741.

Both are conseq to the 426 Hemi 500, last ever built Dec19 1968.

I thought 248665 was the last 440, but your car is definitely near the very end of the line.

Someday it would be interesting to compare an early and late build car side by side and see if there are differences.

I just read this whole thread, and my head is foggy now  :brickwall:. I have XS on my dash VIN, Title, fender tag and is registered in the 181 known to exist list that I have from 11/89 compiled by GG. I have some more interesting documentation from Chrysler Corp dated April 10th 1972 showing only 392 Charger 500's were built. Has anyone else seen this letter?   :coolgleamA:

Quote from: Highwaystar on December 16, 2014, 10:34:59 PM
I just read this whole thread, and my head is foggy now  :brickwall:. I have XS on my dash VIN, Title, fender tag and is registered in the 181 known to exist list that I have from 11/89 compiled by GG. I have some more interesting documentation from Chrysler Corp dated April 10th 1972 showing only 392 Charger 500's were built. Has anyone else seen this letter?   :coolgleamA:

The 1972 letter is the one that started the quoting of the 392 number.   I don't know that there has ever been any documentation as to "how" they actually arrived at that number. 

Hi Aero's,

Happy Christmas to all Charger 500 Folks (fixed or non-fixed-cheapo headlights).............

Five years has gone past real quick!!! :yesnod:
Still 392 is the 'number of the beast'!

How many more C500's have come to light since 2009?

What is the current total for known C500's please???

The next person that mentions GG is off my Christmas card list!!! :RantExplode:

HOPE THE NEW YEAR BRINGS JOY AND HAPPINESS TO ALL CHARGER FOLKS and the other non Charger BIRDIE Folks too............. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:

QuoteI have some more interesting documentation from Chrysler Corp dated April 10th 1972 showing only 392 Charger 500's were built. Has anyone else seen this letter?   coolgleamA

Though I have heard about it, I have never actually seen the "392 letter". I guess I thought it was a hidden personal treasure like Mr. G's secret and questionable list that says there are more than that.

It seems like this would be the thread to scan and post the "392 letter" to (strong hint!).  ;D

RMike

there are people who will sit on documents forever rather than share anything with the hobby.

the guru is just one of many.

Here is a copy of my original letter with Chrysler Corp. verifying the 392 number in 1972.    :popcrn:

Quote from: held1823 on December 17, 2014, 08:20:42 AM
there are people who will sit on documents forever rather than share anything with the hobby.

The 392 letter was published in the Winged Warriors newsletter many years ago.  

While the letter is on company letterhead, and I have no doubt of its authenticity,  it gives no insight as to how the writer arrived at that number.    It is in direct conflict with two sources of "over 500 cars"; number one being the Bill France letter and number two, the Govier list.    

Also, you cannot just throw out the ACCUS rule that five hundred cars had to be built.     It would be difficult to cheat by shorting production by twenty percent when there was a known list of VINs used for spot checking.

But if they did, where are the extra 100 sets of parts?   We should have been awash in NOS Charger 500 headlamp assemblies.   :smilielol: They had to PLAN in advance ordering these parts.

As I have mentioned like beating a drum,  the survival rates of 500s seem to be grossly inflated by using the 392 number.    

Quote from: Aero426 on December 17, 2014, 10:49:42 AM

Quote from: held1823 on December 17, 2014, 08:20:42 AM
there are people who will sit on documents forever rather than share anything with the hobby.

The 392 letter was published in the Winged Warriors newsletter many years ago.

ah, i wasn't referring to the 392 letter, or to anyone in particular. i was just lamenting that not everyone gives a damn about the history

Quote from: Aero426 on December 17, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
...
While the letter is on company letterhead, and I have no doubt of its authenticity,  it gives no insight as to how the writer arrived at that number.    It is in direct conflict with two sources of "over 500 cars"; number one being the Bill France letter and number two, the Govier list.    

...

Here's where the elusive Govier list is.......... It'll never surface..........

Quote from: hemi68charger on December 17, 2014, 11:36:35 AM

Quote from: Aero426 on December 17, 2014, 10:49:42 AM
...
While the letter is on company letterhead, and I have no doubt of its authenticity,  it gives no insight as to how the writer arrived at that number.    It is in direct conflict with two sources of "over 500 cars"; number one being the Bill France letter and number two, the Govier list.    

...

Here's where the elusive Govier list is.......... It'll never surface..........

That looks like my basement right now, only it's not as organized as that warehouse.

Like I said before if XX29 were put in the computer and 392 came up, were the rest of the 500's XS29. I have one of each. Did my XS29 get counted? :confused: :think: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn:  Rick.

In 2000 I sent Galen a letter with some questions one of which as to NJ 500 dealers .I got that info .I believe the lists exists .It should be like the Daytona #385 dealership list back when list you send in a vin tracing or some other required proof .And you got you cars info  

Ive seen a Daytona manufacture statement of origin for a 69 Daytona that had XS on it .The XS XX has always been inconsistent.Theres been articles in newsletters send info to Chrysler as motor vehicle agencys were carrying the mistake   dressler Daytona XS on it factory title paperwork


. I recall its manafacture of statement origin reads XS.(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/DCP_0296.jpg)

XS or XX 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daytona and 500 Registrations from  1976 wing warrior newsletter.It reads how many of you daytona and chargers 500 owners have the problem of possesing a registration slip showing maybe XS on the paperwork instead of XX.Well if you want to correct this error.Then heres what Mike Mcguire says you have to go through to straighten the matter out.As he had the same problem with his daytona.You write to James H Kilroy chrysler corporation office of civic affairs P.O. Box 1919 Detroit Michigan 48231.Include a copy of the title and picture of the car.And if possible a picture of the serial number on the dash.Or from the engine compartment plate.We recommend you use the dash.As we have seen a case where they even put XS on the engine compartment plate instead of XX as was on the dash.Mr Klilroy will inturn respond with a letter to your state DMV notorized stating he correct serial number.And they will in turn change the registration.Most of these problems were caused by an erroneous statement on the the factory title of origin.And in this case the mistake was made on Mikes Daytona.




http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,79574.0.html

What's the possibility this Daytona and say a hundred others were originally 500's that Chrysler held onto and had Custom Creations release them as Daytona's? That could account for XS engine ID numbers,  and VIN numbers still being released in the Daytona models with XS. Although the sequence numbers would be later 500 numbers, maybe never recorded.
There was a very short time between the 2 productions (6 months?)

Quote from: Highwaystar on December 17, 2014, 04:30:33 PM
What's the possibility this Daytona and say a hundred others were originally 500's that Chrysler held onto and had Custom Creations release them as Daytona's?

Not a chance of this happening.    We now know all the Daytona VINs are much higher sequentially as well as the later scheduled production dates at Hamtramck.   

And six months is a looooong time in auto production and racing both.

This is old.  Forgot we had even wrote about it in 1998.   But here is Govier's communication regarding the production numbers.    As he says, he is reasonably certain the real number is greater than 392 and closer to 548.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/numbers500.jpg)

What if they pulled a few 500's back into Custom Creations to finish off as Daytona's. I know the sequential numbers are higher as all Daytona's are, but there are only 392 VIN numbers available for 500's. So how do we know what the others would have been. It would explain the pictures below of what looks like a few 500's mixed in with Daytona's at Custom Creations.
Chrysler would have been able to save some money vs. allocating 500 more cars to the Daytona project. Rear window plugs done already, R/T chassis, and drivetrain. I don't think Chrysler cared about ever making these cars available for the public, but to have the numbers needed, and fast to go Racing.
just a thought to ponder on..., before it gets total dismissal. It could account for the proper number of 500's accounted for at one time, but never made available to the public.

Another

The picture that looks like 500's mixed with Daytona's is because they were not completed yet. The two runs did not overlap.

Quote from: Highwaystar on December 17, 2014, 06:28:20 PM
What if they pulled a few 500's back into Custom Creations to finish off as Daytona's. I know the sequential numbers are higher as all Daytona's are, but there are only 392 VIN numbers available for 500's.

There are no Daytonas old enough to have a scheduled production date old enough to have been intended as a Charger 500.    All Daytonas have their own unique special order number starting with 926xxx.

All the 500's built had to be on their way to dealerships by 1/1/69.   The 500 did not "fail" until after the Daytona 500 in mid-February.    The Daytona program wasn't announced until April.    The time line does not work for "holding back" Charger 500 cars.  

How do you know there are REALLY only 392 VIN's for Charger 500s?       Too much stock is being placed on a potentially flawed letter from Chrysler.  


 

Creative Industries was a fairly small job shop.    Cars are shown in the press photos are various states of completion on the way to being Daytonas.     Old Photos don't lie, but they can be misinterpreted.   Creative was not much like an assembly line.   

You can see the 'hollow' horizontals!
My old street Daytona, XX29L9B383272 had a solid one.
DC-93 has a hollow one.

Wonder why a few were solid????  Be interesting to figure out a pattern.

I  like to look at all potential angles. you all have good answers for it not happening. As for the letter, until there is something that is made public that is more creditable, how could agree with other "here say" if it is not in writing. 3-4 years after production seems to me to be more creditable than accounts that have been made in the last 10 years. The 392 number XS vs. XX is all how you want to look at it. How do we know the guy was checking VIN numbers to come up with the 392 number, maybe he was checking A11 500 codes in early production when he came up with the number. I'm sorry to say it will be a mystery, until something else is made public, and I am with 69_500, and Ghoste  the number will always be 392.
Now if there are some good chaps out there, help me find my Broadcast sheet, and I will believe what ever you want me to. :lol:

Questions for the registry keepers;

What is the number of known recorded VINs for the 500s?

What is the number of known recorded VINs for the Daytonas?

What are the lowest & highest vehicle order numbers for each model?

More registry ???
How many different 926XXX SO numbers are there. XXX is what I am referring to.

That was my last question above, just worded differently.

Also for the registry guys, are there any VONs recorded in these series of cars that are known NOT to be 500s & Daytonas?

(Just trying to look at it from another perspective)

I'll have to look it up later.  Danny has a more complete list f 500's than I do though and I think there is a good chance that Geno has a better Daytona list.

Quote from: Highwaystar on December 17, 2014, 07:25:01 PM
As for the letter, until there is something that is made public that is more creditable, how could agree with other "here say" if it is not in writing. 3-4 years after production seems to me to be more creditable than accounts that have been made in the last 10 years.

Why does the list need to be made public to be credible?   If Govier says "I have a list with x number of cars on it", why is there a reason to doubt what he says?     If NASCAR said "We have a list of 540 cars",  why would we discount that?    Neither of those are hear say any more than the Chrysler letter.    All are in writing.   

The one thing that doesn't make sense is 392, which is not enough to certify and race the car.    No one seems to be interested in talking about how if that number is true, how the car got certified to race. 

The 69 Daytona list started off at #381 vins later got updated to include Canada Daytona s and new number was #501 .And for years we all heard the 503 Daytona number
.As with the 500s no verified vins on a list and speculation .To the #392 number .There was a rumor 500,s were in line twice and accounted to reach the required number of built cars. And 392 has been the tested thru time number.And updated to #548.Are the additional cars Canadian 500s

Highest vin for a 500 248666. Lowest VIN for a daytona 355101 I believe, unless you include the Reeker car.
Last batch of 500's were probably rolling out of creative late in January of 69, maybe mid February.

925xxx signifies 500's.
926xxc and 927xxx are Daytona's

Number of known 500's to me is 281.
Known Daytona's in 1988 according to paper Doug posted was 382.

Hi Aero's,

I heard the unsold 500's were sent to the UK along with the 100 or so RHD Barracuda's.
They were sold at two UK Dealerships one of which I worked at myself.
Warwick Wright in Chiswick West London and one in Norfolk.

As the Limeys were only used to Hillman Avengers and Morris Minors, it was mayhem!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Being LHD and 375 horsepower, most were destroyed in the first year.
Mother Mopar was so embarrassed by this, all records were destroyed.

I believe only two of the 110 cars still exist today, both are green, as we weren't allowed any any other colors in DULL UK!!! :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:

Happy Christmas to all Mopar Folks!!! :2thumbs:

Quote from: Alaskan_TA on December 17, 2014, 07:34:32 PM
Questions for the registry keepers;

...

What is the number of known recorded VINs for the Daytonas?

What are the lowest & highest vehicle order numbers for each model?

Quote from: 69_500 on December 18, 2014, 05:19:33 AM
.... Lowest VIN for a daytona 355101 I believe, unless you include the Reeker car.
...
926xxc and 927xxx are Daytona's

Known Daytona's in 1988 according to paper Doug posted was 382.

:iagree:

Highest VIN on the lists and in my records is 434780 (has a VON of 926452, a former Kenny Brackett car)

I can only account for 381 Daytonas in my informal database, but I've never compared lists with Sue or Doug - who probably have many more than that 382 figure by now.

The lowest VON excluding the Reeker car is 926000 (L9B356502, Don Hicks' T7 car -- at least at one time)
The highest VON is 927254 (J9B409079, the former Kenn Funk F6 hemi)

As with VINs, the VONs are all over the place within that range.  There are consecutive batches to be sure, but many are not.  Looking through the Daytona Dealer Invoice List published a few years ago in the WW/NBOA newsletters sheds a whole lot more light on the VON "pattern" used.  That study also leads me to believe that MANY cars were ordered or scheduled, but were later eliminated from the production schedule.  Those eliminated cars fill in many of the "blanks" between VONs that made it into production, and VONs have at least some correlation to the ordering/shipping dealership or the Chrysler sales zone area of the country.

I seem to remember a '69 car which had a 925xxx, 926xxx or 927xxx VON which was not an A11 (C500 or Daytona), perhaps a sunroof model?.  Shawn and Barry can probably answer that question better than I.

Yeah, yeah - I know... clear as mud.   :icon_smile_blackeye:   That's actually why I don't spend too much time talking about such topics on the forum, since it is really a complex issue and I've spent years trying to figure things out with only marginal success.  I had planned to set up a searchable website database to display all this kind of information in for others to noodle on too, but that effort stalled some years ago (hint hint, Troy!   :poke: )

:cheers:

Sunroof VONs for the '69 Chargers had 928xxx VONs.

I'll send you an email Gene.

I believe there are a couple of exceptions in that sunroof group.  (I'll have to verify though)

500 ?

? 500

Quote from: Ghoste on December 18, 2014, 12:11:51 PM
I believe there are a couple of exceptions in that sunroof group.  (I'll have to verify though)

I know with the 1970 cars, sometimes something will 'trump' a special VON sequence & trigger another so that would not surprise me.

Weather or not you like or don't like Galen, I would give credibility to the idea that he has the list he says he does. If he was out saying he has a list of say 501 cars, and then someone came up with a list of only 392 cars and some cover letters from 1969 saying the 392# was correct; serial #'s, dealer shipment info, and dates; his credibility would go down considerably.

Really, what is in it for him to inflate or deflate the number if it is 392 or 501? There is no reason or motive where it should make any difference to him high or low, other than the number he seems to have evidence of gives him credibility.

His business seems to be providing information, either for other information or a fee.


The 392 number seems to be a well after the fact letter from someone's memory.

That letter from Galen just confuses me more.... He said he acquired "an incomplete list of serial numbers and dealer names for many 1969 Charger 500s..." This incomplete list shows 537 cars, which would imply there was more than that built if it's "incomplete"... and he says this list shows 110 hemi Charger 500s.... He then shows the numbers that he uses to arrive at his number of 548, of which he only includes 32 hemi cars. If he said he has another list showing 110 hemi cars, why is he only counting 32? Does that mean there are really 78 more hemi cars, pushing the total to 626 total cars? If those hemi numbers on the "incomplete list" were wrong, what else on that list was wrong? It all just confuses me more.... :shruggy:

Credibility is earned, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

More and more C500's turning up everyday.
Some Folks have pictures of wrecked C500's that were unsaveable.
They were a novelty car and mostly unknown for many years.
Not as 'stand-out' as Daytona's and ripe for hemi robbing.
There was a time when these cars were demo-derby material.
We all hear stories of rare cars in the 'ring' being totalled! :slap:

With all this in mind there must have been more than 392, its a no-brainer.
I would say its much closer to 400 LOL! :2thumbs:

DayJona

Quote from: RallyeMike on December 18, 2014, 09:31:20 PM
Credibility is earned, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Exactly!  And it isn't earned by a secret list that people have to learn about through a third party word of mouth and then pay you for confirmation that your car exists or by writing inaccurate magazine articles about bezel colors or telling the owner of the Rapid Transit Caravan Road Runner that the car was horribly customized and would be much more valuable returned to stock.  It isn't even earned by going on stage at Barrett-Jackson so that they might publicly annoint you as the holy guru.
I'm not by any means implying that if he has such a list that its public domain but at least verify that "yes, I have such a list and this is the number, if you purchase my service I can provide detailed information on a specific car".

Its 392 and always will be!!! :2thumbs:
Its been that for 45years so it ain't gonna change.

Daytona Folks have just got to realise, they bought the wrong car!!! :slap:
And if you bought a Birdie, well........ they is well common Geezer! :smilielol:

Best to find a Ford-Aero if you wanna be in the RARE-CLUB!!! :nana:

Pick any number you want just make sure its less than 502!!!!! :moon: :moon: :moon:

5J aka DJA

FIVE YEARS TO DEGA AND COUNTING DOWN.........................

Quote from: Ghoste on December 19, 2014, 08:43:13 AM
I'm not by any means implying that if he has such a list that its public domain but at least verify that "yes, I have such a list and this is the number, if you purchase my service I can provide detailed information on a specific car".

That basically took place on this board about a year ago.   I received a call from Galen about a particular car.   At that point, I had asked him about the infamous "500 list".     His assistant Diane  later got back to me with the number of cars on the list and a description of what was on the list.   At that time, it was mentioned that if you own a 500 and want information on the selling dealer, etc,  they would set up a 30 minute consultation with Galen and get you the information.       That did get posted here.

I either missed that one then or at least don't recall it.  Fair enough on that part.

I asked here about the list almost 5 years ago and was told he had it....I emailed him  and got a reply from Diane (?) that she would pass on my info to him....waited months, emailed again, and never heard back....

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,67342.msg756948.html#msg756948  (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,67342.msg756948.html#msg756948)

Quote from: richRTSE on December 19, 2014, 02:10:13 PM
I asked here about the list almost 5 years ago and was told he had it....I emailed him  and got a reply from Diane (?) that she would pass on my info to him....waited months, emailed again, and never heard back....

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,67342.msg756948.html#msg756948  (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,67342.msg756948.html#msg756948)

If emailing is not working, a phone call to follow up is probably the way to go.     

The 392 was talked about for years yes, but the 540 number and 548 both preceded the quoted 392 number from Chrysler itself. I would rather believe it's 392, but the odds that I have located 70% of total production to me is far fetched.

Quote from: 69_500 on December 19, 2014, 03:58:37 PM
I would rather believe it's 392, but the odds that I have located 70% of total production to me is far fetched.

That is just it.   I don't think a 70% survival rate is realistic for the cars without noses and wings.   The winged cars have the weird factor working for them.    Most people who bought them new, knew they were special.     

I will say this though. There are way more Hemi 500's than Daytona's and that accounts for over 1/3 of the cars I can account for. When I can track down over 90 Hemi 500's that's a lot.
I expect the Hemi cars to have a higher survival rate, but not 100%. If the actual number produced is 110.

Quote from: 69_500 on December 19, 2014, 05:27:12 PM
I will say this though. There are way more Hemi 500's than Daytona's and that accounts for over 1/3 of the cars I can account for. When I can track down over 90 Hemi 500's that's a lot.
I expect the Hemi cars to have a higher survival rate, but not 100%. If the actual number produced is 110.

So if you have numbers for 90+ hemi 500s and Galen's 548 only includes 32, doesn't that push the number over 600...???    :scratchchin:

Last time I saw Galen mention 500 production numbers I think he stated 110 Hemi cars out of the 584 number

No, No, NO, 500's are VERY SPECIAL, well to me any ways!!! :icon_smile_big:

Only once the 393rd 500 is found will C500 Folks believe there more than 392! :2thumbs:

If they weren't special then why were so many made as Hemi cars?
Are we are back to C500's being used for Racecar duties again???
Or building a Racecar for track duties ie Nascar?
Surely some were bought and never registered, straight to the track and wrecked?
FOR THE MAN IN THE STREET................
A highly modified Hemi-Charger R/T for only a few bucks more than a stock R/T!
No more problems with non working headlight doors and capable of 200mph!!!
Its a no brainer!

OMG I need a time machine, I gotta buy some HEMI-500's real QUICK!!! :woohoo:

392-548, Taste great-Less filling, 392-548, 500 Owners-Wing car owners, 392-548   :brickwall: :slap:

I have seen way more Daytona's than c500. How many does Danny have that are known.

Well, it's time to break the news: I have a list that says there were 478. I got it from my uncle who was fork lift driver at Chrysler during the period of Charger 500 production, and I can prove that he was!

For a small fee, there is a good chance that I will send you a letter stating that the actual production number is 478, and also a picture of my uncle Frank on his forklift!! My uncle Carl also worked there and has vouched for uncle Frank's forklift experience!!! I am offering more definitive proof of the actual production number than anyone else, so contact me now!!!!




Disclaimer: I was going to offer the list publicly because of my dedication to the hobby and for the benefit of all my fellow Mopar enthusiast, but have decided to keep it to myself and whore the information out bit by bit for minor personal gain. Please don't judge the quality of my character on this.  

Quote from: 500Jon on December 20, 2014, 04:50:39 AM
Surely some were bought and never registered, straight to the track and wrecked?
FOR THE MAN IN THE STREET................
A highly modified Hemi-Charger R/T for only a few bucks more than a stock R/T!
No more problems with non working headlight doors and capable of 200mph!!!
Its a no brainer!

Jon you don't seriously believe this do you?

Quote from: RallyeMike on December 20, 2014, 11:25:55 AM
Well, it's time to break the news: I have a list that says there were 478. I got it from my uncle who was fork lift driver at Chrysler during the period of Charger 500 production, and I can prove that he was!

For a small fee, there is a good chance that I will send you a letter stating that the actual production number is 478, and also a picture of my uncle Frank on his forklift!! My uncle Carl also worked there and has vouched for uncle Frank's forklift experience!!! I am offering more definitive proof of the actual production number than anyone else, so contact me now!!!!




Disclaimer: I was going to offer the list publicly because of my dedication to the hobby and for the benefit of all my fellow Mopar enthusiast, but have decided to keep it to myself and whore the information out bit by bit for minor personal gain. Please don't judge the quality of my character on this.  

That was pretty funny, but the situation itself is pretty sad. The list if available should be shared period...to ask for money is similar to asking for ransom.
I am sure a list like that would be beneficial to many and would help answer some questions and clear up some grey areas.

Dave 

I can give him a pass on wanting to get paid for it, I don't agree with it but I do understand how things work.  What irks me is that it is largely such a secret list.  The magazines fall all over themselves anytime GG goes to the balcony with outstretched arms, how hard would it be to say publicly, "there is alist, this is the number, call me".  End of controversy and quite frankly if he's holding it ransom, it's a much better way of cashing in on it.

I agree that information should be shared not sold.   I can understand the need for reimbursement for an inspection and documents of that inspection.

Something similar was discussed on this forum about selling broadcast sheets found to the car owner it belongs to. :eek2:  It just feels wrong.

information falls into the hands of two types of people - enthusiasts who want to preserve and/or further the hobby, and opportunists who are looking to cash in.

i must be out of touch with things if GG has returned to the public's good graces. there was a time when the GG stamp of approval was a good thing. google the name now, and see how karma has turned the tide.

Quote from: held1823 on December 20, 2014, 07:21:21 PM
information falls into the hands of two types of people - enthusiasts who want to preserve and/or further the hobby, and opportunists who are looking to cash in.

i must be out of touch with things if GG has returned to the public's good graces. there was a time when the GG stamp of approval was a good thing. google the name now, and see how karma has turned the tide.

:2thumbs:   I will add that that one can start out one way and turn another for whatever reasons.
When I met Galen (about 12 years ago) My instincts told me nothing was amiss with his intent or integrity.
I still withhold a judging opinion because I have no personal connection to energize my instincts.

His beginnings in this hobby (as a mopar nut) may have grown to the point that in order to follow the passion further called for letting go of other means of earning a living. :shruggy:

One thing we all talk about frequently in this hobby is it's not a business to begin with and to try to make it so is a hard road. :Twocents:

The auction houses, magazine hacks and gazillionaires who knew dick about cars fed his ego too.  I don't think he was the one who came up with the "guru" bs.  They made him a kind of a numbers rockstar.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,115092.msg1423513.html#top

I sure do Mr.Ghoste!

Why can't an aero C500 do 200mph?
I heard that a certain stock 68 Charger does 180mph on the street all day long!!! :2thumbs:
I'm sure that a hemi C500 will easy do it!!! :drive:

So you feel that the Joe Average "man in the street" would go out and buy a 69 Hemi Charger 500, a car already priced well above the standard Charger, IF HE COULD FIND ONE, and then proceeded to void the warranty by gutting the entire car, welding in a cage, rebuilding the suspension, and then rebuilding the drivetrain, including the Hemi, up to race standards?
:icon_bs:

Never happened.  I seriously doubt the street version will hit 200.  I don't believe the one about the stock 68 running 180 all day either.  The non aero's get VERY unstable as they pass 120.  That is something I do know.

Quote from: Ghoste on December 21, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
The auction houses, magazine hacks and gazillionaires who knew dick about cars fed his ego too.  I don't think he was the one who came up with the "guru" bs.  They made him a kind of a numbers rockstar.

That is it right there, no question. :2thumbs:

Quote from: Ghoste on December 22, 2014, 12:28:26 PM
So you feel that the Joe Average "man in the street" would go out and buy a 69 Hemi Charger 500, a car already priced well above the standard Charger, IF HE COULD FIND ONE, and then proceeded to void the warranty by gutting the entire car, welding in a cage, rebuilding the suspension, and then rebuilding the drivetrain, including the Hemi, up to race standards?



Isn' t that what Bo and Luke Duke did with the General Lee?  LOL  :cheers:      :popcrn:  

Who recalls the brown 69 500 W/ W23 recall wheels in the charger brochure only available with the Hemi .The factory misinformation started there and snow balled  :Twocents:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,63489.0.html

Quote from: 500Jon on December 22, 2014, 09:45:20 AM
I sure do Mr.Ghoste!

Why can't an aero C500 do 200mph?
I heard that a certain stock 68 Charger does 180mph on the street all day long!!! :2thumbs:
I'm sure that a hemi C500 will easy do it!!! :drive:

Hope this helps... 

Can't quite read that Greg.

But I get the gist of it!
C500 was real good at 192+mph so 200 was quite doable!!! :2thumbs:
The nose and wing of the Daytona's pushed the envelope to 240+mph.
We know the horsepower and torque was already there in 1969, thats why restrictor plates were introduced.

So when it comes to Hemi-C500 Roadcars, I'm sure they were well capable of the 200 barrier, set up correctly.
No I'm not talking of a race-track 200mph, just a straight line 200mph.

I feel I'm talking myself into doing it with my C500 to prove a point!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Quote from: 500Jon on December 23, 2014, 06:18:19 AM
Can't quite read that Greg.

But I get the gist of it!
C500 was real good at 192+mph so 200 was quite doable!!! :2thumbs:
The nose and wing of the Daytona's pushed the envelope to 240+mph.

An additional 17.5  horsepower was needed to increase one mph at 190+.    So you would need to find another 140 horsepower out of the Hemi to run near 200.    That is the problem. 

#240 Charger 500s

Quote from: 500Jon on December 23, 2014, 06:18:19 AM
Can't quite read that Greg.

But I get the gist of it!
C500 was real good at 192+mph so 200 was quite doable!!! :2thumbs:
The nose and wing of the Daytona's pushed the envelope to 240+mph.
We know the horsepower and torque was already there in 1969, thats why restrictor plates were introduced.

So when it comes to Hemi-C500 Roadcars, I'm sure they were well capable of the 200 barrier, set up correctly.
No I'm not talking of a race-track 200mph, just a straight line 200mph.

I feel I'm talking myself into doing it with my C500 to prove a point!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

John - a readable version can be found here  -->   http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_120968.html

:cheers:

You might also like this -->  http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_111368.html

Thanx Aero426 and Greg!

I see what you are saying, aerodynamics versus horsepower.
425hp as stock so near to 600hp is needed.
That's an easy ask with modern hemi's.
I will go 572 cubes with my Mega block and ali-heads.
Most Folks won't be able to see the differences when its bolted in lol!
I'll still use pump-gas as its getting cheaper everyday...........

572J

Hmmm. 1.5% floor modifications, dry sump, blocked grilles, what have I gone and said now???

OOPs back on TOPIC!

240 C500's, its gets better every day!!! :2thumbs:
They must all be found NOW!!! :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:

Quote from: 500Jon on December 23, 2014, 11:16:27 AM

I see what you are saying, aerodynamics versus horsepower.
425hp as stock so near to 600hp is needed.

The race engine used for that 192mph test approached or slightly bettered 600 HP.   So you need upwards of 700 to get the job done.

but wait only 500 built

but only recommended strictly for sanctioned racing

Until other wise proven 392.  Thats my story and Im sticking to it!

Excuse me if this already exists out there...

Why isn't there a public webpage/google doc/forum post that lists all known VIN/SO number/motor/trans/color/int color/fate*.   (* Meaning known to exist, destroyed, unknown, etc.)

Does not necessarily need an owner/past owner column, but could have some noted for more famous cars where ownership is very public knowledge.  The purpose is more for lookup and discussion, not for buggering in to peoples lives.  Keep your lists of current owners and their addresses off of this sort of list.

Seems like this forum has the knowledge to do it.  I cringe a little each time I hear about the mish-mash of registries and people holding this sort of info on a need-to-know basis.  The reality is that it is a bunch of fiefdoms run by particular personalities, those personalities change, and if they get out of the hobby, or even die, then the info has a very good chance of going away forever.  The internet as it exists today is a perfect place for registering all this info for 500's, Daytonas, Superbirds, and all other Mopars for that matter.

Not exactly true.  The "fiefdoms" as you call them exist because a registry is a helluva lot more work to maintain than you think it is.  The people who do them tend to narrow their focus to the cars that interest them the most so that they can manage the task and keep up their own willingness to do it.
For example with the 69 Registry, I love the 69 Charger so I try to maintain that database, there are 500's and Daytonas in it but we have a member on here who is very interested in the 500 so he has the contacts and the drive and has compiled a larger stash of 500 info than I have.  He has smaller to no interest in maintaining a database on all 69 Chargers and if you had a registry you would easily see why.  Now the reason we haven't compared our lists to make them each in agreement just comes down to real life.  We know each other and have been friends on this forum for a long time but we both have jobs and kids and all that goes with it.  The registries are a hobby.
As for the public knowledge portion of your question, you would be amazed at the number of people who do NOT want any info on their car released.  It is often only the assurance of privacy and confidential records that gets some of these cars registered.

Quote from: Ghoste on December 26, 2014, 10:42:26 AM
Not exactly true.  The "fiefdoms" as you call them exist because a registry is a helluva lot more work to maintain than you think it is.  The peoploe who do them tend to narrow their focus to the cars that interest them the most so that they can manage the task and keep up their own willingness to do it.
For example with the 69 Registry, I love the 69 Charger so I try to maintain that database, there are 500's and Daytonas in it but we have a member on here who is very interested in the 500 so he has the contacts and the drive and has compiled a larger stash of 500 info than I have.  He has smaller to no interest in maintaining a database on all 69 Chargers ande if you had a registry you would easily see why.  Now the reason we haven't compared our lists to make them each in agreement just comes down to real life.  We know each other and have been friends on this forum for a long time but we both have jobs and kids and all that goes with it.  The registries are a hobby.
As for the public knowledge portion of your question, you would be amazed at the number of people who do NOT want any info on their car released.  It is often only the assurance of privacy and confidential records that gets some of these cars registered.

Good, concise answer.  :2thumbs:

Quote from: Homerr on December 26, 2014, 10:25:17 AM

 The internet as it exists today is a perfect place for registering all this info for 500's, Daytonas, Superbirds, and all other Mopars for that matter.

Good idea which one are you going to start first? I am looking forward to the link.

Dave

Two other good examples would be the one Wayne Wooten started to try and document all cars wearing the Charger nameplate.  A noble but overwhelming task.  Real life and the enormity of what he is trying to do is largely the reason that registry is inactive.
Govier tried a similar thing with his all "Mopar Registry".  As much as I am not a GG fan, I do begrudgingly understand part of why he wants to be paid to maintain his registry.  At the end though, even being paid for that "service" it isn't going to be ever be an internet accessible info search for people because its just too much.
Have ever seen the size of the Shelby Registry book?  A limited and well documented group of cars since the day they were made and the book is well over an inch thick.  All they have to do is update the records as they can and it still is a lot of work for a group of people to maintain.  They also charge for the book.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=7862.200;wap2

Now we just need all the other states and Canada.