Hi all
DarrlyG is one of the many alias's of dave walden.
he has been doing anything in his power to cutdown my daytona in any way
i believe this is due to his hatred towards the restorer of my car, mike mancini, who he dislikes,
because mike did a great restoration on the blue duster that in daves opinion scored too high and took away some of his glory on the resotration he did on his valiant
i have pictures of the car coming out of the barrn it was stored in since 1972
the body wasnt rusted at all,
the only rot on the car was due to some mouse houses that were on top of the engine over to the inner fenderwell, and on some areas of the interior floor pan that were replaced with sections of original floors
dave takes great pleasure in starting trouble and therefore getting thrown off of internet boards.
he finally choose to sponsor an obscure board so he could spew his bs for everyone to ooh and aah about and give him the pat on the back that he needs so badly
what he says has no truth to it and his only reason for joining this board is to try and knock my car for fear that it may do too well in judging. he can try to spin this 100 different ways, but what i listed is his motive
im sorry about this thread but this is what he does, starts trouble
i have pictures of the car prior to disassembly, and pictures of how + when it was found
he'll have staged and rehearsed conversations
isnt it funny how he just admitted that darylg is his alias,
and does anyone wonder why he has suddenly become the go to person with info on daytonas, especially just prior to the nationals judging
he still doesnt realize that the cars dont compete against oneanother at the nationals, they are just judged by a pointsheet,
which of course dave has gone on a major campaign knocking the oe judging based on his inaccurate assumptions of the blue duster that was judged last year, and the judging system to the extent of knocking the oe judging system in his ads
Quote from: TONY on June 29, 2012, 12:28:51 PM
isnt it funny how he just admitted that darylg is his alias,
Wake up Tony! I only know these people. I "hate" no one. I just don't care for liars and scammers! :2thumbs:
IN BEFORE THE :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :dancinglock:
Quote from: TONY on June 29, 2012, 11:27:12 AM
I also have a history of owners of the car and have recently spoken with the owner of st ann dodge about the car and has given me with original dealer stickers, postcards, dealer id stuff. Etc
Your last email telling me "F... You" has crossed the line. You want the truth for everyone to see? Explain the "real" paperwork you had me make with the changes to this "real car". Does this refresh your memory?
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/06-29/02.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/06-29/03.jpg)
hi dave
thanks for posting
i do still have those 2 copies along with the 2 tattered originals
ill get to the safe later tonite or tommorow and post pics of my 2 tattered originals and the 2 copies you made for me for display purposes
thank you
tony
ps if anyone cant tell by now, dave is showing his true motive,
i have no problem with any of this as there is nothing to hide from,
ill say it again, yes my car had some floor rot,
yes the data tag was rusty but not one code was missing or illedgible,
yes i had copies of my buildsheet made for display purposes as i wouldnt want to bring the originals out in public
i guess i would have been better off starting with a survivor like malcoms or mcculys daytonas
Dave Walden has been on a crusade against the mopar nationals, me, my shop, the cars I restore ever since he found out the results of a 70 Duster that I restored and brought to the Nationals last year.
Before the nationals we were pretty friendly. After he found out the Dusters score he went ballistic. He demanded I send him pictures of the car so that he could judge it for himself. When I declined to do that, I became his instant enemy and was labeled a liar and all sorts of negative terms.
He then focused on attacking the car and the Mopar Nats judges in which he told me i was simply "collateral damage".
He has routinely harassed me and my customers for almost a year now. It got so bad months ago I had to hire a lawyer to send him a letter not to contact me any longer.
He has left me harassing phone messages, countless emails and constant attempts to character assassinate me through the internet boards all because of a car's score. He even emails my customers with all sorts of slanderous and untrue remarks about me.
He is convinced there is some kind of higher plot against him in the mopar hobby and the ring leaders are the mopar nationals judges and other individuals in the hobby.
This bogus story about Tony's car he is now trying to pass around is his next plot to try and cut me down as well as hurt Tony in some way.
This is my hobby, my business and my livelihood.
Dave, please read this next line carefully: AGAIN, DO NOT CONTACT ME EVER AGAIN, STOP HARRASSING ME AND MY CUSTOMERS. WE WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!
And please....get some help.
Quote from: 706pkvert on June 29, 2012, 02:13:02 PM
Dave Walden has been on a crusade against the mopar nationals, me, my shop, the cars I restore ever since he found out the results of a 70 Duster that I restored and brought to the Nationals last year.
Before the nationals we were pretty friendly. After he found out the Dusters score he went ballistic. He demanded I send him pictures of the car so that he could judge it for himself. When I declined to do that, I became his instant enemy and was labeled a liar and all sorts of negative terms.
He then focused on attacking the car and the Mopar Nats judges in which he told me i was simply "collateral damage".
He has routinely harassed me and my customers for almost a year now. It got so bad months ago I had to hire a lawyer to send him a letter not to contact me any longer.
He has left me harassing phone messages, countless emails and constant attempts to character assassinate me through the internet boards all because of a car's score. He even emails my customers with all sorts of slanderous and untrue remarks about me.
He is convinced there is some kind of higher plot against him in the mopar hobby and the ring leaders are the mopar nationals judges and other individuals in the hobby.
This bogus story about Tony's car he is now trying to pass around is his next plot to try and cut me down as well as hurt Tony in some way.
This is my hobby, my business and my livelihood.
Dave, please read this next line carefully: AGAIN, DO NOT CONTACT ME EVER AGAIN, STOP HARRASSING ME AND MY CUSTOMERS. WE WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!
And please....get some help.
You are an absolute liar and will definitely have the chance to defend your accusations!
Dave Walden
Tony, Mike & Dave - There's pretty much one set rule around here... no personal attacks. Mike, your last post is not what I'd like to see happen on this board to be honest. You and I did not have the conversation that Tony and I had this afternoon, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Our purpose as Moderators is not to censor material being posted, nor do we have a responsibility to fact-check everything. If a statement is made that can be refuted with facts, do so. That helps all of us understand the situation better and make informed decisions.
This is not a situation I can control nor should I interject myself into the equation... however a couple of things are evident:
> Tony's Daytona is legit, and the XS vs. XX on the title/registration is a common trait with many if not all Daytonas
> Whether a car was originally sold with a wing and nosecone is more a function of its unique history and heritage rather than a question of its pedigree... now it may be important if the car is represented as a "survivor" (I don't like using that term, but don't know what else to use at the moment) - and I'm not saying that's the case, but it's the only instance I can think of where knowing that the original nose/wing was discarded or not makes any real difference.
> Debate about Dave's opinion of the 'Nats judging program (past or present) isn't germane to this thread's topic of wing cars converted for sale. It seems more like an attack on the messenger. If there is a problem with the information that Darryl (DarrlyG) or Dave has presented, then stick to that particular debate.
:Twocents:
Well said and I agree Geno.
Dave,
Considering I have saved all emails to/from you & I, you & tony, you & Keith Rohm and the several phone messages you left on my cell and copy & pasted and saved all threads you have ever posted on regarding me or the duster, the truth is documented.
Gene,
I am sorry to be part of any trouble on the board. I won't be talking about this anymore.
Quote from: 706pkvert on June 29, 2012, 03:23:27 PM
Dave,
Considering I have saved all emails to/from you & I, you & tony, you & Keith Rohm and the several phone messages you left on my cell and copy & pasted and saved all threads you have ever posted on regarding me or the duster, the truth is documented.
By all means post them for the World to see!! Gene, sorry for this mess. These guys are absolute liars and delusional. I never received anything from an attorney nor have I ever harassed anyone or their Customers. Admittedly, we BOTH traded and sent combative emails to one another. The fact is that I was "Friends" with these guys but they stabbed me in the back after I helped them to reach their goals. I manufactured custom decals for them and provided other assistance while they were criticizing me behind my back on the forums under THEIR aliases. (How are you doing BEAST?) Anyone who knows me realizes I would give you the shirt off my back if you asked for it. I not only helped Mike Mancini with parts for the Duster he restored, I also told him I would HELP him anyway I could to beat the record we set in 2010! I provided his NOS Tires, Custom Decals, Engine Card, Window Sticker, Traveler Sheet, NOS Wheel Weights, NOS Date Coded Washer Pump, Complete Glass Set, NOS Transmission Cover Plate, Restored Date Coded Voltage Regulator and a complete Set of Factory Exact Decals. THAT IS HARDLY THE ACTIONS OF SOMEONE TRYING TO IMPEDE THE EFFORTS OF A "FRIEND". So what "Thanks" do I get? After the show, Mike Mancini lied to the Judges and others by saying he didn't use my Glass because is was so Bad "he could scratch it with his fingernail." He used my glass, lied and said it was "junk" and then told the Judges it was actually original. That car was loaded with reproduction parts! What some people won't stoop to in order to win. He has also tried to spin his restoration and solicit business by lying and telling people (on GM websites) that my Valiant was a Survivor that was entered in OE while HIS restoration was a complete restoration of a well used vehicle! (Below is a link that illustrates that fact.) It is amazing how a little success and notoriety will cause some people to lie and cheat! To anyone who enters OE.....PLEASE go beat our score....I will even assist you if you need the help!
Dave Walden
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/481867/1970_Plymouth_Duster_OE_Gold_C#Post481867
I think this particular vein of discussion has run its course. I'll pull out the extraneous material and separate it from the original topic, just because it's a fascinating point of wing car history (to me, anyway).
Quote from: ECS on October 16, 2012, 12:50:26 AM
You are correct about the "original paperwork" however. I certainly was not provided with the "original" they claim to have had. I was given a hand written sheet to make the Build-sheets that they requested for the car. Lets see......they had the original, wanted 2 copies but submitted a hand written example for me to use as a format. I see no contradiction in that scenario....do you? :rofl:
The mention of ECS produced reproduction broadcast sheets came up in June. Your customer said he had an original build sheet, in tattered condition, but you did not have it in hand. Apparently you went ahead and created the reproduction sheets some time ago. For reasons unknown to us, last June you proceeded to throw your CUSTOMER under the bus by posting his private written communications to you and a copy of his build sheet on this board.
When you shared that information, that was a WOW moment about how you conduct business. It suggests that whether I want an ECS window sticker or a door VIN decal, that my car information (or anything else I tell you) may not be treated as confidential.
For the sake of clarity, here is a photo of all the broadcast sheets for 390018 posted with permission. The top two sheets are the originals. The bottom two are the newly created exact reproductions for car show display purposes. I would put this in "Tony's Daytona" discussion, but that thread is locked. Perhaps it can be unlocked and relevant posts be moved there.
Quote from: Aero426 on October 15, 2012, 11:48:13 PM
It suggests that whether I want an ECS window sticker or a door VIN decal, that my car information (or anything else I tell you) may not be treated as confidential.
No need to speculate over apples & oranges! We don't sell Broadcast Sheets to the public so there are no rules concerning their "confidentiality" as with our staple products.
Nice try on the Fake Copies that Tony gave to you. Look at the FAKE one on the left. (You can't tell what the one on the right is. All the pertinent information is conveniently torn or stained away.) The one on the left is one that I made for him! I gave him at least 4 copies and this is his pathetic attempt to lie to you people. Here is how you can tell. The one on the left is "suppose" to be the one that was taped to his glove box. If it was the Build Sheet that was taped to the glove box, the only things that would be circled would be areas specific to the building of the dash!! They circled "console or Aux/Seat" listed on line 6. That information box has NOTHING to do with the dash assembly! If they say the circle is designating the box to the right or left of it they are still wrong. The box to the left signifies the "brakes" and the one to the right signifies the "armrest." NONE of those items have ANYTHING to do with the dash assembly and should not be circled. What an amateur mistake!
Also notice how the characters are lined up exactly like the ones that I made for him. It would be IMPOSSIBLE that I just happened to place the letters EXACTLY like the one on the left because he NEVER sent an original for me to format from! When I made them, I didn't know exactly how to word the line that says
17 SPECIAL ORDER. I had never seen or made another Daytona Build Sheet so I spaced the letters to a default that was used on Tran Am cars. Since he said they were using them for "novelty" purposes, I never told him about the error because I figured it didn't matter.
Upon documenting three "real" Daytona Build Sheets (after I made Tony's) I realized the spacing I did was wrong. The wording
17 SPECIAL ORDER should be spaced almost three quarters of the way, across the bottom row of boxes. NOTICE HOW HIS "SUPPOSEDLY" ORIGINAL ONE'S LETTERING IS EXACTLY IN THE SAME POSITION AND SPACING AS MINE. (So are all of the other characters that you can read and make out.) What a coincidence! His "original" exhibits the same mistake and character positioning that I made on his copies. He had originally sent me a copy that had letters
whited out and numbers hand written in their place. I GUARANTEE the one on the left is one of mine trying to be passed off as an original! How pathetic! He will go to ANY means to fake his fabricated agenda. Take the picture, save it as a document and blow it up so you all can see what I am talking about. If my re-posted one is not clear, go to Tony's "locked" thread and save that picture. Unbelievable! :o
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=92926.0;attach=185222;image)
to keep others up to speed on what dave is referring to about the spacing, here is a close up view of mine. i have no idea if the other 502 are like this one.
once dave finishes convicting himself of being an accessory to fraud, perhaps we will return to mr. weidner's accounting of the sheet metal modifications. that would be the interest that most of us have in relation to this thread.
Quote from: held1823 on October 16, 2012, 06:13:55 PM
to keep others up to speed on what dave is referring to about the spacing, here is a close up view of mine. i have no idea if the other 502 are like this one.
once dave finishes convicting himself of being an accessory to fraud, perhaps we will return to mr. weidner's accounting of the sheet metal modifications. that would be the interest that most of us have in relation to this thread.
Fraud? Are you mentally retarded? Is this your way of trying to cover and support his lies? He is BUSTED!! PERIOD!
I make ALL kinds of items UNDER LICENSING for Chrysler. What someone decides to do with them is their own prerogative. We are also making Exhaust Systems (under licensing) for Chrysler. If some lying thug uses an H Pipe on to beat someone over the head, is that also my fault? I guess the local Sporting Goods store should be considered an accomplice to battery if a gang member uses one of their baseball bats as a weapon of choice. Once again, pure Genius!
(Oh....I almost forgot....thanks for providing the fourth "original" example that illustrates the correct spacing for an original Daytona. I'm sure Tony also thanks you!) :2thumbs:
They convict the tabacco, alcohol, firearm, and pharmaceutical industry for the same thing. So why not?
Quote from: stroker400 wedge on October 16, 2012, 06:45:57 PM
They convict the tabacco, alcohol, firearm, and pharmaceutical industry for the same thing. So why not?
Come and get me! A Build Sheet is not a registered/registration document. The hobby made them "the holy grail" of documentation and not the DOT or DMV. It was nothing more than trash after it served the purpose of helping to assemble the car. :2thumbs:
Quote from: ECS on October 16, 2012, 06:32:05 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 16, 2012, 06:13:55 PM
to keep others up to speed on what dave is referring to about the spacing, here is a close up view of mine. i have no idea if the other 502 are like this one.
once dave finishes convicting himself of being an accessory to fraud, perhaps we will return to mr. weidner's accounting of the sheet metal modifications. that would be the interest that most of us have in relation to this thread.
Fraud? Are you mentally retarded? Is this your way of trying to cover and support his lies? He is BUSTED!! PERIOD!
I make ALL kinds of items UNDER LICENSING for Chrysler.
i'm not covering for or supporting anyone. i don't know tony, and have never seen the car. my only interest in this debacle is the claim that the car was sold new, without its aero parts.
as for your licensing, shouldn't that require you to know what you are printing, before printing it? one area in which a build sheet affects a car is its perceived value, which is partially based on the documentation available with the car. you damn well should be 100% certain that what you are reproducing is on the up and up. if you are guessing at font spacing, or filling in numbers based on what you described as a "whited out and altered" original, then yes, you help perpetuate fraud.
as for providing you a fourth example of an original build sheet (no need for quotation marks, i removed the sheet from the daytona that has been sitting here since it was brand new), you're welcome. would you like a copy of the entire sheet? i am all about the accurate history of these cars, and since you profit from reproducing documentation, i'd prefer that you get it right.
here are 2 daytona sheets with the " 17 special order " ending under the #6 block above, not past block 9
looks like it was done different ways
maybe he'll say he made 20 sheets for me next
I just did a quick google search :scope: on daytona buildsheets and found 3 previously posted sheets... 2 with the wide spacing and one more with the close spacing.....the hard to read photo copy looks like XX29L9B356510...was posted by Dave (nascarXX) in 2006...maybe its an early/late variation?
the bottom one, is mine
Quote from: TONY on October 16, 2012, 07:15:11 PM
maybe he'll say he made 20 sheets for me next
Spin, deflect & lie! Forget about the spacing if that is going to become your focal point to cover your lies and deceive those who are watching this thread. Explain this one Tony! You NEVER sent me a copy of an "original" build sheet. You sent me a copy of someone else's that had characters whited out and your hand written information in their place. Same with the "17 Special Order" verbiage that you also wrote by hand. Can you please tell us all how I was able to PERFECTLY match EVERY character (position) that was exhibited on your "original (upper left in the photo) and my two copies directly below the picture? It would be one hundred trillion to NONE chance that I could just coincidently PERFECTLY position the wording and characters to match something that I had NEVER seen. Don't lie and tell these people THAT sheet is an original! I know my work! YOU GUYS are the ones who aged it (incorrectly I might add) and circled options that NEVER would have been circled by the person who was responsible for building the dash. You got caught trying to perpetuate your lies....PERIOD!
Again, for everybody reading or watching this thread, CLOSELY look at the characters that are on his so called "original" Build Sheet and and the copies below it. Look at where the lines in the blank boxes above the
17 SPECIAL ORDER words are and notice where the characters line up. Continue to follow the vertical artwork of the lines and see where they run in relation to the printed
17 SPECIAL ORDER characters below. Also look at the numbers (that are legible) and their positions within the boxes. His "original" is IDENTICAL to my copies because it TOO in one of my copies that he is trying to pass off as an original.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj215/A383Wing/GIF%20Icons/TrainWreck1.gif)
:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
:nana:
Wow...I haven't viewed this thread in a while, quite interesting :popcrn: I just think of all the wasted energy and time used to engage in all this diatribe about some Detroit production junk, I put the "numbers", "paint daubs", buildsheets, historical documents, etc, etc behind me decades ago because it consumes too much of an individual, you guys need to focus on building/maintaining the cars, and enjoying them for what they were made to do...
I do enjoy the unique history of the Chrysler marque, but I don't let it consume me like some do here...Geez
Mike
Quote from: DAY CLONA on October 17, 2012, 12:45:40 AM
Wow...I haven't viewed this thread in a while, quite interesting :popcrn: I just think of all the wasted energy and time used to engage in all this diatribe about some Detroit production junk, I put the "numbers", "paint daubs", buildsheets, historical documents, etc, etc behind me decades ago because it consumes too much of an individual, you guys need to focus on building/maintaining the cars, and enjoying them for what they were made to do...
I do enjoy the unique history of the Chrysler marque, but I don't let it consume me like some do here...Geez
Mike
With all do respect Mike, how or why does the manner in which anyone spend THEIR discretionary time, bother or affect you? If you have found this thread to be "quite interesting", please stay tuned and patient for just a bit longer. I have the proverbial
nail in the coffin regarding this "wasted" subject matter to post soon! :2thumbs:
Quote from: DAY CLONA on October 17, 2012, 12:45:40 AM
Wow...I haven't viewed this thread in a while, quite interesting :popcrn: I just think of all the wasted energy and time used to engage in all this diatribe about some Detroit production junk, I put the "numbers", "paint daubs", buildsheets, historical documents, etc, etc behind me decades ago because it consumes too much of an individual, you guys need to focus on building/maintaining the cars, and enjoying them for what they were made to do...
I do enjoy the unique history of the Chrysler marque, but I don't let it consume me like some do here...Geez
===================================================================================== TOTAL AGREE,,, waste of time and energy .that could be used to improve our cars and the mopar family. WHY IS THIS GUY NON BANNED FOR HIS PERSONAL ATTACK ON OTHER?????????????????????????? HIS STORY AND INFO KEEPS CHANGING AND ATTACKS ON ALL THAT DISAGREE WITH HIS PERSONAL AGENDA? WELL NO MORE OF MY TIME WILL BE WASTED WITH THIS GARBAGE.THANKS FOR FEW SECONDS OF WORTH WHILE INFO..DJ. :Twocents:
I have 2 sheets from my Daytona. The sheet that was found taped to the passenger side of the floor hump under the carpet has items circled just like in the topic car 390018. My backseat sheet has no items circled. Just like in car 390018. I notice that the earlier cars have the shorter spacing on the 17 SPECIAL ORDER at the bottom.
QuoteWhen I made them, I didn't know exactly how to word the line that says 17 SPECIAL ORDER. I had never seen or made another Daytona Build Sheet so I spaced the letters to a default that was used on Tran Am cars.
I did another quick google search... for aar and t/a buildsheets and found 3...all of them had the wide spaced lettering, not the close lettering like the sheets you made for Tony :shruggy:
... you also posted the letter from Tony requesting 2 build sheets, and you had posted before about how you had made him 2 build sheets... and then he posts a picture of the 4 sheets he has, with 2 new-looking sheets and 2 "aged" sheets, and you say the aged sheet on the left is also one of your...how many did you make, more than the 2 he asked for?
..and what is the actual story on the honeycomb grille? Where these dealer replacement parts or a production variation?
Quote from: richRTSE on October 17, 2012, 07:59:29 AM
I did another quick google search... for aar and t/a buildsheets and found 3...all of them had the wide spaced lettering, not the close lettering like the sheets you made for Tony :shruggy:
... you also posted the letter from Tony requesting 2 build sheets, and you had posted before about how you had made him 2 build sheets... and then he posts a picture of the 4 sheets he has, with 2 new-looking sheets and 2 "aged" sheets, and you say the aged sheet on the left is also one of your...how many did you make, more than the 2 he asked for?
..and what is the actual story on the honeycomb grille? Where these dealer replacement parts or a production variation?
I have hundreds of original build sheets and used the spacing for the bottom lettering from a few of the examples I have. I did not have any Daytona's (at the time) so I used other versions to format off of with regards to the letter spacing at the bottom. It seems that ANY vehicle that had something unique or special about their build, have comments written at the bottom.
I made at lead six or seven copies when I first printed them. I do this to try and get a similar feed or positioning of the print when multiple copies are requested. Jon (my graphics guy) usually runs these after I set up all of the type work. He runs many copies and then I will pick the ones that are closest in "matching". If there ends up being more than two that are a "match" I will go ahead and send those as well. I just recently made a Daytona window sticker for a member here and did a similar thing. He asked for one but I said I would make him two. We ended up running 5 copies just in case there was a problem with the print or perforation cuts. I ended up sending him 3 because thats how many of the 5 turned out to be a repeatable match. I almost always send more than what is requested for "one off" items that are vehicle specific. The first copy is the hardest one to make. After that, it is just a matter of feeding in the blank copies and hoping they print in a similar fashion. We don't run these through a "tracking" type printer so there is the possibility that they might print a bit different concerning positioning. Jon will run as many as ten in order to get just a few of them to be a close match.
I have been told a few of the Daytona experts that the "honeycomb" grill wasn't even available in 1969. That variation (supposedly) came out as a service replacement sometime around 1972.
I haven't posted much lately and I wont again due to the fact that even though I'm not the smartest man alive, I am smart enough to never argue and debate with someone who is never wrong.
But I would like to lay this out for all of you.
Just say you want to believe the story that ECS is promoting here.
You would have to believe the scenario painted below.
The car was delivered in September 1969 to St Ann Dodge. that's as per the Daytona shipping list.
That sometime prior to 1972 when Ernie Bingham bought the car, (which was 100% complete with all of the Daytona nose, scoops, wings, decals etc in place), the car was stripped of its aero parts then replacement parts were bought and installed.
I have first person confirmation from Ernie that he bought the car complete and Ernie is alive and well and was very helpful talking about the cars history and enjoyed discussing his old car.
Ernie was first reunited with the car in 2005 when Jack Rawlings bought the car from the man who had just bought it from the 2 brothers that Ernie sold it to in 1974. Ernie was reunited with the car again at this years Mopar Nationals where he got to see and sit in the car after it was restored, it was a cool moment for sure.
Back to the story that would have to be believed.
That a dealership that was located in the highly populated area of St Louis MO. wasn't able to sell a Daytona. Member held1823 stated that the dealership that sold them their Daytona new, only 300 miles away, had others wanting to buy a new Daytona, but somehow the one at ST Ann Dodge in a populated St Louis area wasn't able to be sold.
A question that you would have to ask is, how long would be a reasonable amount of time for the dealer to hold on to the car before he would determine it to be not saleable, one year? Two years? Who knows?
The dealer then went through the expense of removing the nose cone assembly, fenders, fender scoops, rear wing and supports, and removing the large butt stripe decal on the quarter panels and trunk of the car (ill be lenient and guess that the A-pillar air deflectors were left on).
Then ordered:
charger bumper
(remember you couldn't order assemblies, each item had to be ordered individually),
Bumper guards,
all of the bumper brackets and reinforcements of which there were many,
hood latch tray,
hood latch and release assembly (multiple pieces),
the grill center,
Grill ends: right and left,
7 pieces of chrome grill trim and all of the attaching clips,
Grill support (cage) and all bracketry,
headlight doors,
Headlamp mounting brackets,
all of the many parts used for the vacum headlight door mechanisms,
front lower valence,
right and left park lamp assemblies,
2 fenders,
2 front wheel opening moldings as they were modified also,
Most every nut, bolt and bit of hardware, because not much if any are able to be used from the Daytona parts.
And I'm sure a bunch more that I've overlooked.
Then, the dealer had to pay the body shop to:
Weld and finish the holes on the quarter panels from where the rear wing was,
Replace the entire front nose of the car,
Paint the entire nose of the car and the rear quarter panels where the rear wing holes were repaired, and possibly paint the trunk and sides of the quarter panels if the paint was damaged while removing the stripe.
And all of the above work had to be done to a high standard as this was still a new car to be sold.
If you still want to be a believer, then you also have to believe that by 1972 when Ernie bought the car, that somebody had gone through all of the time and expense to buy and locate every specific Daytona item that was removed, including the special wheel opening moldings, a red stripe, every bit of original hardware, and paint it like Creative did with the nose installed therefore getting overspray on the nose to fender seal, park lamp assemblies, etc. all prior to Ernie buying the car in 1972.
To recap,
sept 69 car delivered to st Ann dodge,
The biggest variable is how long would the dealer have had to sit on the car before he determined that it was time to do the conversion. Even Ralph W said it was "a looong time" in the video.
I don't think anyone would argue that a year would be the bare minimum,
That means some time towards the end of 1970 would be the earliest the conversion was done,
Then by 1972 (if not earlier because I have only spoken to Ernie who bought it in 1972, not the owner prior to him that also owned it with all of the Daytona parts on it) everything was put back on the car just like creative would have done it.
In the words of Seinfeld "that was one magic lougee"
Cont'd
Look at of all of the lengths and time ECS has devoted to promote and defend his point.
He interviewed and video taped Ralph, an old sales rep. Who while a nice guy, his memory is obviously skewed as proven by his inaccurate statements in reference to AARs + T/As having to be driven 500 miles prior to sale as per SCCA and being sold as used cars, Ralph said that was in reference to all of those T/As + AARs nationwide, he also wasn't able to remember the name of his own drag car that was a record holder. Ralph claimed the source was from "some of the guys at the dealership", he wasn't a first hand eye witness. Another point, ST. Ann dealership (now a walmart sits on the grounds) wasn't directly across the street from the zone office that was located in Northwest Plaza as Ralph stated, but over ¼ mile away, it was close but hardly across the street, this was told to me by the current owner of the dealership (who has owned the dealership since the late 1970s) and has been nice enough to give me an original dealer sticker, license plate, dealer postcard, etc,.
ECS constantly responds with attacks and ludicrous analogies to those that doubt or don't believe him. He changes his story as needed, ie: originally claimed to have made 2 build sheet copies for me, and has now upped it to 4 to suit his needs. Now is trying to set up another interview with a supposed worker that did the conversion work. How old are all of these former employees and how accurate of a recollection are they going to have from just a regular job they had 40+ years ago?? And how credible will it be coming from someone with such a biased agenda. He has tried to spin the AAR T/A story to not mean what Ralph said in the video. ECS has also contacted magazine staff about my car with his negative biased input, something he has accused others of and stated that he would never do. Isn't also funny how ECS has suddenly become a wing car enthusiast and expert, it wasn't long ago he was stating that a car with a XS title couldn't have been a real Daytona?
Does anyone find it coincidental that member DarrylG has the same contact, Ralph Weidner, as ECS does, and they both make same claims. That member only joined to make 2 posts then ECS continued the crusade. Another item DarrylG mentioned was that the floors were rotted out and when the car was 3 years old and that the engine was trashed with the damaged block being located in Illinois. I find it amazing that posts by members like that are even allowed to be kept on this board since its obvious that DarrylG only joined to spew some lies start trouble then leave.
Some try to say that the posts about the car being stripped of its aero parts aren't anything negative, but add some mystic to the car, I think not, but that's an arguable point. But for sure I think all agree that claims that the engine and trans parted from the car can only be considered a negative.
I have pictures of the engine and trans vin stampings and I have posted them here before. Paul Jacobs looked at them at the nationals and confirmed that the engine and trans stampings were consistent with what he has seen.
If you'll check out the prior posts of ECS, you'll see the vast majority of them are either to bash me, my car and Mike Mancini whether its direct or through an innuendo, to knock the Mopar nationals judging, or to defend the ridiculous claim about the T/A and AAR mileage requirement. He initially registered here to promote his postings about his cars on another website. It looks like everything has an agenda. The time and effort devoted to this by ECS is dumbfounding. Member djcarguy wonders why he hasn't been banned from here. Others are wondering that too, he has been banned from moparts for the same sort of confrontations and attacks on members, if it doesn't stop on this board then dodgecharger.com may become the Jerry Springer of mopar sites.
Someone brought up the paint match on my car prior to resto. The car did have many areas that had prime or spray bomb white on it. But you can see by a pic posted by richrtse that the original nose cone paint does match the original paint on the fender, but not the door. The door doesn't match the ¼ panel. Well, when Daytonas were repainted at creative weren't the nose, roof, trunk and at least the top of the quarter panels painted to hide the body work, and also possibly the quarter panels too if the painters didn't want to have a paint line at the top of the quarters? So going by that the doors would be original paint and the rest of the car would have been resprayed. Look at those pictures of the cars on the car haulers leaving creative, it doesn't look like they were done very neatly.
ECS has also brought up that my car had the incorrect REPRODUCTION window sticker. He is 100% correct. The other Daytonas at the nationals had correct REPRODUCTION window stickers while my car didn't. The reason for that is that when I was going to order one from him he replied "Please do not take this as personal. I hope you understand what I am about to say. As long as mike mancini is doing the work for ANY vehicle, I will NEVER supply things for his projects." as Dave wrote to me in an email 3-15-2012 .
In reference to the honeycomb grill that's in my car. I too was skeptical about that and researched. The grill was installed when it was painted just like the originals were as we learned during disassembly. It had all of the correct cutouts for the attaching screws. Ernie also confirmed that was the grill type in the car when he bought it in 1972. I also corresponded with noted wing car expert Dave Patik who said (and wrote a letter confirming such) he has positively seen original owner untouched cars with the honeycomb grill, Frank Badalson has also stated that he agrees that it was original to my car, and very recently Dave B aka member nascarxx29 posted the following:
Re: Superbird grille material?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 05:48:20 PM »
"I've seen Daytona's with the superbird honeycomb material on some original cars "
I believe all 3 of the above are accepted experts.
My research has shown that the honeycomb grill was the less common of the 2 types of original grilles. These cars were all hand converted and there will be some variables just how Genes claims his spoiler was black. There are some things like those that are out of the norm, but acceptable. Believe me, it would have been much easier for me to use the rectangular grill in the car, but I researched and went with what I feel was correct for my car. I wasn't trying to restore it as a later build restoration of its condition in the early 1970s, but in "as delivered to the dealer" condition.
Like I said, I wont come back and forth and participate in what for sure will turn into a childish debate, I just wanted to state my story.
Glad you pitched in TONY. Every point you made is exact, but as far as what response you are going to get from ECS, I think you already know. Grab some popcorn and sit back and relax :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: There's going to be some fireworks. :2thumbs: Feel free to post more often.
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 11:26:20 AM
3. buildsheet font spacing has sidetracked the thread. this discourse was offered to "prove" that the current owner of the car is misrepresenting it. it should be noted that buildsheets for other daytonas have been presented, which show the same "incorrect" spacing as seen on 390018. regardless of the outcome here, this has absolutely nothing to do with the car when it was sold over forty years ago.
Nothing has been side tracked. It is information related and tied into the misrepresentation of the vehicle. Once again, NONE of you have questioned your "forum fraternity member/friend" for trying to pass off my reproduction build sheet as being "real". You guys have called it "fraud" but want to make it MY fraud. Your forum member/friend and his restoration crony incorrectly aged it, screw up the manner in the way it was marked, lied to the judges and everyone here about it being original and not ONE of you question THEIR involvement or motives. For the record, this is the second reproduction build sheet that this restoration shop has tried to pass off as "original."
I can assure everyone here that I am not "Ralph" or "Darryl." I invited ANYONE to join us for the Luncheon with all of these "phony" people but none of you accepted the offer. I believe "Ralph" was also suppose to me (at one time) and then I was later accused of just finding a guy that I would "rehearse" the interview with. And you guys think MY story keeps changing?!? Also included is a picture of the floor pans I was forwarded which "Darryl" or "Ralph" or "whoever", supposedly lied about. Go back and read Tony's inference regarding his floor pans. Were those comments just another misconstrued fact that was lied about? Everyone can tell that they were
most definitely in good condition and in no need of major repair.....right? If he is truthful I'd hate to hear him lie!
And yes Tony, I ABSOLUTELY said I want nothing to do with your resto buddy for the backstabbing lies that he told about me after all the help I provided to him. I choose not to deal with pathological liars that will stab you in the back to facilitate their agenda. Maybe you should tell your Friends here how you spent the better part of the last seven years going behind my back lying about all 3 of my restorations, secretly contacting the magazine Editors and trying to get them to print incorrect gossip about my cars, going on the Moparts forum under the alias "BEAST" (which has been recently changed to Captain Flapjack after a two year hiatus) to stir up trouble. I especially like the response to Tony's "recollections" made by another member:
.......Every point you made is exact...... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Back to answering HELD1823's question....I do not have any personal knowledge about the grill on Daytona's. I was just passing along some "hear say" information. I do however have YEARS of experience with reproducing and the study of fonts and original versus reproduction characteristics of Factory documents, decals, labels, etc...... Below are a few of the small nuances that most people never notice. You mentioned "spacing" as it relates to other cars having the "same" characteristics. WRONG! What you failed to notice is the vertical kerning which exposes the "real" one for what it is.......MY reproduction. ALL Build Sheets were printed on a Dot Matrix, Continuous-Line Form Printer. Once the Computer Network was programed to print the vehicle's information, that data was constant throughout the print run. (
17 Special Order wording for example) Since those words never changed in context, they were "locked" in and would basically remain consistent in positioning unless someone typed an extra space between characters on a different day. The other characters (option codes) would constantly "move" in their positing because those numbers that were changed to represent the different options of the vehicle. If the code was not changed, the positioning of the character would basically remain in the same location. You might have some minor shifting in characters but no drastic change from one form to the next.
Notice the two styles of print in the photo below. I have more than 10 that can be use to illustrate the point. Every example that used the "wide"
17 Special Order verbiage basically fall in the same positions with respect to the primary print (boxes) above it. The primary print is the actual "static" print that never changes while the secondary print is the characters that are entered by the Computer Programmer and printed by the Continuous Feed Dot Matrix printer. Notice the versions that illustrates the narrower spaced version of the wording "17 Special Order". They fall in almost the same proximity,
to the right, of the primary print lines above. EXCEPT for MY bottom two REPRODUCTION copies of the Build Sheet. Notice how the letters "S" & "O" fall
to the left side of the vertical box line. In the full size pictures also notice how even the "movable" option numbers in the "real" one are exactly in the same positions as my reproduction example. Since I did not have an original to format from, I "guessed" where the
17 Special Order line & numbers were placed with regards to the primary print boxes. I missed a complete "space" between the "7" and the "S"! IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR TONY'S "ORIGINAL" (THAT I HAD NEVER SEEN) TO EXHIBIT THE SAME ERROR AS MY REPRODUCTION. THE "NARROW" FONTS WERE ALL BASICALLY IN THE SAME PLACE WITH RESPECT TO THE BOXES BUT DO NOT MATCH MY MISSED SPACE BETWEEN THE "7" & THE "S"! Why didn't Tony send me that "real" one as a format to use instead of a hand written sample? I have marked lines to show what I am talking about and those examples that are "original" and reproduction. The one on the left in Tony's quad picture is actually a "real" version but all of the identifying vehicle information is missing. I guess that makes it "hear say" as to whether it really came from that car. Give it a few days and they will probably come up with some "original Photoshop" versions to counter my research. For those who have their originals you will positively see the same positioning if you have the "narrow" or "wide" font versions. The examples I used were from the ones posted here so you KNOW they were not altered in their appearance!
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/10-17/01.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/10-17/02.jpg)
I think my kite almost got off the ground. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
Quote from: stroker400 wedge on October 17, 2012, 04:57:10 PM
I think my kite almost got off the ground. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
Indeed.....nothing like pictorial proof to expel the wind from a Hot Air Balloon!
this car is sitting flat on the ground. is that how it was found? dont know much about the story i guess. :shruggy:
i will let this photo speak for itself, as to whether or not it is the same floor pan that dave just posted.
and once again, this sidebar doesnt have one damn thing to do with how the car was sold forty-plus years ago. can we get back to that?
Quote from: ECS on October 17, 2012, 04:50:07 PM
You guys have called it "fraud" but want to make it MY fraud. Your forum member/friend and his restoration crony incorrectly aged it, screw up the manner in the way it was marked, lied to the judges and everyone here about it being original and not ONE of you question THEIR involvement or motives.
Dave, if what you allege is true, you are most certainly partially responsible. You are the person that opened Pandora's Box on "perfect" build sheets. You would not listen to anyone, as far as making them clearly a novelty item and detectable.
You claim no responsibility once it leaves your hands. That is total BS, and you know it. You might not be the person working over a build sheet that you created. But you made it possible. You didn't create the problem of people altering paperwork. You just made it easier. For this, you do bear some responsibility. This is not a VIN label for a '98 Taurus. It WAS one of the gold standards for evaluating a vintage Mopar before you decided to muck it up.
For all the good things you have done for the hobby, the decision to make build sheets for customers, friends, etc. was equally bad. And for what?
Quote from: Aero426 on October 17, 2012, 05:40:22 PM
Quote from: ECS on October 17, 2012, 04:50:07 PM
You guys have called it "fraud" but want to make it MY fraud. Your forum member/friend and his restoration crony incorrectly aged it, screw up the manner in the way it was marked, lied to the judges and everyone here about it being original and not ONE of you question THEIR involvement or motives.
Dave, if what you allege is true, you are most certainly partially responsible. You are the person that opened Pandora's Box on "perfect" build sheets. You would not listen to anyone, as far as making them clearly a novelty item and detectable.
You claim no responsibility once it leaves your hands. That is total BS, and you know it. You might not be the person working over a build sheet that you created. But you made it possible. You didn't create the problem of people altering paperwork. You just made it easier. For this, you do bear some responsibility. This is not a VIN label for a '98 Taurus. It WAS one of the gold standards for evaluating a vintage Mopar before you decided to muck it up.
For all the good things you have done for the hobby, the decision to make build sheets for customers, friends, etc. was equally bad. And for what?
To be truly accurate, it is my Parents fault for bringing me into this World. Had they not done that, this would have never happened. So I am going to blame them. :smilielol:
You are completely correct however in your initial statement. I had no responsibility in doctoring, aging and trying to pass that build sheet off as being an original. I have ALWAYS admitted and openly told of the sheets that I make. I actually had them approval from Chrysler but Dave Stuart talked me out of actually marketing them. Its also not my fault that many of you have decided to mandate a point of view that is not substantiated by any formal or legitimate Governing Body!
I will certainly be looking forward to reading your chastising remarks to the other side who were the ones that actually lied to all of their good Friends here and tried to pass my reproduction off as being real. I'm sure you probably just wanted to do that in a separate post......right? :2thumbs:
one can only assume that you were totally unaware of the "repeat violation" that you tossed out there with this jewel...
Quote from: ECS on October 17, 2012, 04:50:07 PM
For the record, this is the second reproduction build sheet that this restoration shop has tried to pass off as "original."
because if you were aware of it, you certainly would not have aided in the repeat violation, would you....
again, can we discuss the car, as it was sold new? don't leave poor ralph twisting in the wind while you bemoan unrelated topics.
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 06:40:06 PM
one can only assume that you were totally unaware of the "repeat violation" that you tossed out there with this jewel...
Quote from: ECS on October 17, 2012, 04:50:07 PM
For the record, this is the second reproduction build sheet that this restoration shop has tried to pass off as "original."
because if you were aware of it, you certainly would not have aided in the repeat violation, would you....
again, can we discuss the car, as it was sold new? don't leave poor ralph twisting in the wind while you bemoan unrelated topics.
I have already been contacted by a member here ( I do not know their real name) and has asked to be part of the meeting we are trying to coordinate. Apparently this person said that there are other "members" in the area that might also attend. My offices are in Chesterfield, MO. 63005. For ANYONE who is around the proximity of the area, I am inviting you to join the meeting and we will go out to Lunch just like we did the last time. You guys can witness and hear things for yourself.
Again, where is the chastising for the one responsible for doctoring and trying to falsify the identity of the build sheets? Is there not even ONE of you upstanding guys who think that taking my (admitted) reproduction build sheets and trying to pass them off as original holds no culpability? I guess if you do THAT, it opens up the entire box of worms concerning the stories and character of those involved and just which lies you are willing to accept! Sorry, but your hypocrisy and partiality is not even CLOSE to being concealed regarding this situation. Here is the proof in case you just happened to miss it when I posted it before.
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/10-17/01.jpg)
Quotei will let this photo speak for itself, as to whether or not it is the same floor pan that dave just posted.
:scratchchin: looks like it could be.....similar hole in rear trans tunnel, rusty rear console bracket, clean edge of seat with dirty insert area...
Quote from: ECS on October 17, 2012, 07:11:28 PM
Again, where is the chastising for the one responsible for doctoring and trying to falsify the identity of the build sheets?
as you stated yourself, that is fodder for a different thread. if you seek my personal opinion, i agree that deception of any sort is unacceptable. i also believe it is unacceptable for you to offer the reproduction sheets in the first place. the case you are now trying to build is reason enough why there is no place for these valuable documents to be accessible other than from within the car they came with. at best, you are rewriting (or more exactly, reprinting) history. at worst, you did open the pandor's box that doug alluded to. there are deceptive people out there, and had you stopped to consider what may come from your precise documents, none of what you alledge should have come as a surprise.
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles. this thread is certainly not the place to discuss that topic, but my sentiment expressed in the second sentence of this very post should show you how i stand in on the minority on that issue. like you, i am not afraid to press forward with my beliefs. unlike you, however, i generally post my dissension in the appropriate thread. your feud with tony and mike is forty years beyond anything related to this thread.
Quote from: ECS on Today at 03:50:07 PM
For the record, this is the second reproduction build sheet that this restoration shop has tried to pass off as "original."
This statement is totally untrue. Period. I've already debated this.
Save yourself the trouble. All he is going to do is go on and on and on and on and on about this and that. There's no sense in trying to turn on the light with a burnt out bulb. If you want to make yourself helpful, vote for me or Fred http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95907.msg1101406.html#msg1101406
Quote from: 706pkvert on October 17, 2012, 08:17:59 PM
Quote from: ECS on Today at 03:50:07 PM
For the record, this is the second reproduction build sheet that this restoration shop has tried to pass off as "original."
This statement is totally untrue. Period. I've already debated this.
Okay Mike.......would you like for me to post your material as it relates to this subject matter? I guarantee you are poking a topic you don't want to rustle. I clearly remember YOUR story. The original owner had it but then lost it during the time you wanted me to make one, so you couldn't provide me with the original to format from. After you restored the car the original owner re-found the build sheet and then sold it with the car. The car was later offered for sale on eBay with MY reproduction build sheet pictured and described as the "original". I can't figure out how you guys always have the originals but are never able to provide them as the format for what you want me to make. The NEXT time you try to cover your garbage trail and tell me that my comments are "untrue", I will post your email request and the hand written, whited out box copy you sent, that was just like Tony's! :2thumbs:
maybe your repo build sheet should have a water mark or some other way to ensure no fraud :Twocents:
Quote from: moparstuart on October 17, 2012, 08:51:14 PM
maybe your repo build sheet should have a water mark or some other way to ensure no fraud :Twocents:
Your way of thinking & comment is the most intellectual remark made here thus far. Actually, I should have never made them but I really thought I was working amongst honest "Friends". I now realize some people simply wanted to use me or my services for their own agendas. They were never "true" Friends or sincere acquaintances. I had no idea that their quest for "gold" would cause such betrayal, lies and backbiting down the road.
Most of these reproductions were done prior to 2010 and they are now stored away in a remote room somewhere in our new facility. I don't know which room Charlie moved them to and I have no intention on EVER making one for anyone that is not either my BEST-EST Friend or a Family member. :2thumbs:
Quote from: ECS on October 17, 2012, 09:35:32 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on October 17, 2012, 08:51:14 PM
maybe your repo build sheet should have a water mark or some other way to ensure no fraud :Twocents:
Your way of thinking & comment is the most intellectual remark made here thus far. Actually, I should have never made them but I really thought I was working amongst honest "Friends". I now realize some people simply wanted to use me or my services for their own agendas. They were never "true" Friends or sincere acquaintances. I had no idea that their quest for "gold" would cause such betrayal, lies and backbiting down the road.
Most of these reproductions were done prior to 2010 and they are now stored away in a remote room somewhere in our new facility. I don't know which room Charlie moved them to and I have no intention on EVER making one for anyone that is not either my BEST-EST Friend or a Family member. :2thumbs:
sounds like a lesson learned , except maybe never make them or for sure ghost/watermark reproduction into them
I think we need to invite Dr Phil to settle this
Bryan
Quote from: ECS on October 17, 2012, 09:35:32 PM
I have no intention on EVER making one for anyone that is not either my BEST-EST Friend or a Family member. :2thumbs:
The problem is not your best friend or family member. It is what can happen two or three owners down the road. As you said, you have no control once it leaves your hands.
OK, I've tried to sort through the other thread and extract the replies which did not primarily relate to the re-conversion of wing cars at a dealership. My apologies in advance, as I'm sure I have not done so to the satisfaction of everyone involved. It ain't an easy task. This thread was intended to contain discussion related specifically to 390018, except for the discussion related to anything that happened at St. Ann Dodge.
Oh, and to head off receiving another nastygram/threatening email from Tony, I am NOT to blame for posting the floorpan photos despite your best efforts to accuse me of such. ::)
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/troll-roadrunner.jpg)
I bring nothing to the table.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8191/8100293120_385669bcf1.jpg)
My buildsheet seat spring over it where it says special order
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/101_1058.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/101_1057.jpg)
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
indeed he has, and that was the first statement out of his mouth.
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
indeed he has, and that was the first statement out of his mouth.
yeah i've met you both :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :nana: :nana: :nana:
Quote from: moparstuart on October 18, 2012, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
indeed he has, and that was the first statement out of his mouth.
yeah i've met you both :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :nana: :nana: :nana:
true, but you didn't greet me with a "so you're the asshole"...
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:58:52 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on October 18, 2012, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
indeed he has, and that was the first statement out of his mouth.
yeah i've met you both :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :nana: :nana: :nana:
true, but you didn't greet me with a "so you're the asshole"...
no i'm not as blunt and forward as him :icon_smile_big: you were very pleasant in person
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:58:52 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on October 18, 2012, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
indeed he has, and that was the first statement out of his mouth.
yeah i've met you both :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :nana: :nana: :nana:
true, but you didn't greet me with a "so you're the asshole"...
no, I said the 'other' asshole...
how many assholes we got on this ship, anyhow?
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 02:24:49 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:58:52 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on October 18, 2012, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
indeed he has, and that was the first statement out of his mouth.
yeah i've met you both :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :nana: :nana: :nana:
true, but you didn't greet me with a "so you're the asshole"...
no, I said the 'other' asshole...
how many assholes we got on this ship, anyhow?
i left the word "other" out, to avoid throwing you under the bus.
now, thanks to this exchange of pleasantries, gene will have to clean out this thread, too. i hope you two are happy.
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 02:31:50 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 02:24:49 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:58:52 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on October 18, 2012, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
indeed he has, and that was the first statement out of his mouth.
yeah i've met you both :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :nana: :nana: :nana:
true, but you didn't greet me with a "so you're the asshole"...
no, I said the 'other' asshole...
how many assholes we got on this ship, anyhow?
i left the word "other" out, to avoid throwing you under the bus.
now, thanks to this exchange of pleasantries, gene will have to clean out this thread, too. i hope you two are happy.
:yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: :nana:
Self censorship? Works for me and Fred.
:cheers: : wow hot daisy,,,,,,,then after a few seconds,, ya remember,,now she is big enough to make 4-6 old daisy 'es :D :smilielol: :smilielol: :eek2: :slap: :slap: :icon_smile_tongue:
She's on tv hawking some diet plan though so she must be thin again. Of course they are only showing her from the shoulders up...
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 02:31:50 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 02:24:49 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:58:52 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on October 18, 2012, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on October 18, 2012, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: held1823 on October 17, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
you continually claim we "protect our own". search my old posts, and grasp the scorn, both dished out and received back, involving me and my "narrow minded" views regarding cloned vehicles.
Truth. I've met him, and he's an asshole.
indeed he has, and that was the first statement out of his mouth.
yeah i've met you both :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big: :nana: :nana: :nana:
true, but you didn't greet me with a "so you're the asshole"...
no, I said the 'other' asshole...
how many assholes we got on this ship, anyhow?
i left the word "other" out, to avoid throwing you under the bus.
now, thanks to this exchange of pleasantries, gene will have to clean out this thread, too. i hope you two are happy.
Train wrecks are my specialty.
Quote from: richRTSE on October 17, 2012, 07:42:44 PM
:scratchchin: looks like it could be.....
So what's the verdict? Is it or isn't it? The MCG article said: "Tony drove over to Jack's home and inspected the car. As he looked around, he saw minor damage on the driver's side from the accident, but overall, the car was in good shape. As he poked around, he found no rust whatsoever."
yes, those are pics of my rear floor pan, there was rot in those rear floor pan areas that were repaired with original floor pan pieces, id much rather patch those areas then replace outer body panels
i had told mcg there wasnt any body rot
when i looked at the car, parts of the carpet was there, and those areas werent through holes yet
after i got the car home and removed the carpet, cleaned the floor then poked and pushed through on any thin areas and got rid of any of the soft metal, thats what it looked like
i took those pics that are posted
gene, im not accusing you of those pics, and i was just expressing the same concerns as to untruthful claims being made about my car as you were concerned about negativity against your car. im sorry you took them so negatively, they werent meant that way
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 03:33:52 PM
Train wrecks are my specialty.
No kidding.. :smilielol:
Basic principles in life......... Be honest and don't pass anything off as original if it isn't. If it's a reproduction, just say so and move on. ( I know, easier said than done ).
Of course, this wasn't directed at any one person or group......
from the below book on page 89
also stated on page 95 by special vehicle group's George Wallace "Plymouth found out there were about 500 people willing to buy these things and they had all already bought the Dodges!"
The original owner of Jim B's custom painted Daytona told me that he had to travel about 30 miles to buy the car. No color choice; he just took what was available. He knew it was a one shot deal. He lives in a well populated area of Washington state. One story does not apply to all. But in general, Daytonas did not hang around for very long.
Quote from: TONY on October 18, 2012, 07:11:25 PM
yes, those are pics of my rear floor pan, there was rot in those rear floor pan areas that were repaired with original floor pan pieces, id much rather patch those areas then replace outer body panels i had told mcg there wasnt any body rot
According to the quote above, the floors are classified as something different than the "body" of a car. What about the Doors? Are they considered part of the "Body" of a vehicle? Below are some magazine quotes to help refresh everyone's memory about what was said about the vehicle:
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/01.jpg)
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 02:24:49 PM
how many assholes we got on this ship, anyhow?
Please refer to me as Your Assholiness.
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 12, 2013, 06:52:47 AM
Quote from: pettybird on October 18, 2012, 02:24:49 PM
how many assholes we got on this ship, anyhow?
Please refer to me as Your Assholiness.
:smilielol: That's what I need to have either my wife refer to me as or some of the residents in the subdivision I've sent letters too that don't like me ( I'm that dang Board President of the Community HOA - hey !!! They need to clean their shite up, mow and edge on occasion )..... I don't care what they think, the majority got my back......... :icon_smile_big:
I just read this thread and boy am I out of the loop.... IM LOST!!! EV
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:17:37 AM
I just read this thread and boy am I out of the loop.... IM LOST!!! EV
Just go into your garage and sit in your Winged Car........ Take a deep breath, look at the fender scoops and the wing in the rearview mirror. Life is good......
On a side note; I think it has something to do on the condition of a particular Daytona...
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 12, 2013, 08:31:35 AM
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:17:37 AM
I just read this thread and boy am I out of the loop.... IM LOST!!! EV
Just go into your garage and sit in your Winged Car........ Take a deep breath, look at the fender scoops and the wing in the rearview mirror. Life is good......
On a side note; I think it has something to do on the condition of a particular Daytona...
I love doing that sometimes. I hope im not the only weird one... ;)
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:40:32 AM
I love doing that sometimes. I hope im not the only weird one... ;)
Ah, heck no..... I have a nice flat screen TV in my garage and on occasion, sitting in the 500 or Daytona I'll watch the Sunday's NASCAR race... :icon_smile_big:
I sit in mine and turn the 8 track on it takes me back to 1970 :cheers: :drool5: :2thumbs:
well since this thread has nothing to do with its origins anymore Ill add that I havent sat in my Superbird in 5 years and havent driven it in like ten. It has begun to turn back into a lovely shade of Limelight Green though! The shop has the cabin,trunk, deck lid, fenders, and hood smeared with a nice beautiful Green sheen and the belly has been gray dipped to approved results.
As soon as she green for keeps Ill update my resto thread.
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 12, 2013, 08:49:09 AM
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:40:32 AM
I love doing that sometimes. I hope im not the only weird one... ;)
Ah, heck no..... I have a nice flat screen TV in my garage and on occasion, sitting in the 500 or Daytona I'll watch the Sunday's NASCAR race... :icon_smile_big:
:2thumbs:
I wouldn't even need a flat screen or race......to spend a large part of a Sunday afternoon sitting in a Daytona.....[or a 500.....or a Challenger.....or a......]
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 12, 2013, 08:49:09 AM
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:40:32 AM
I love doing that sometimes. I hope im not the only weird one... ;)
Ah, heck no..... I have a nice flat screen TV in my garage and on occasion, sitting in the 500 or Daytona I'll watch the Sunday's NASCAR race... :icon_smile_big:
Does that put a little extra ware on the front tires. :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: thehemikid on March 12, 2013, 11:39:03 AM
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 12, 2013, 08:49:09 AM
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:40:32 AM
I love doing that sometimes. I hope im not the only weird one... ;)
Ah, heck no..... I have a nice flat screen TV in my garage and on occasion, sitting in the 500 or Daytona I'll watch the Sunday's NASCAR race... :icon_smile_big:
Does that put a little extra ware on the front tires. :icon_smile_big:
only when he turns the wheel back and forth and make VROOM VROOM noises .
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:17:37 AM
I just read this thread and boy am I out of the loop.... IM LOST!!! EV
There's a half hour of your life you'll never get back!
::)
Quote from: moparstuart on March 12, 2013, 11:47:09 AM
Quote from: thehemikid on March 12, 2013, 11:39:03 AM
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 12, 2013, 08:49:09 AM
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:40:32 AM
I love doing that sometimes. I hope im not the only weird one... ;)
Ah, heck no..... I have a nice flat screen TV in my garage and on occasion, sitting in the 500 or Daytona I'll watch the Sunday's NASCAR race... :icon_smile_big:
Does that put a little extra ware on the front tires. :icon_smile_big:
only when he turns the wheel back and forth and make VROOM VROOM noises .
you begged me... :smilielol:
In addition to ECS, I too was curious to ask about the doors. The first thing that jumped out to me in this thread was to ask about the doors. So, with that being said, would you consider the doors part of the body?
Thank you for your time,
Aaron
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 12, 2013, 08:49:09 AM
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:40:32 AM
I love doing that sometimes. I hope im not the only weird one... ;)
Ah, heck no..... I have a nice flat screen TV in my garage and on occasion, sitting in the 500 or Daytona I'll watch the Sunday's NASCAR race... :icon_smile_big:
Do you have a radio transmitter for the TV to get the sound on your car radio? LOL
Dane
Quote from: Captain D on March 12, 2013, 03:47:00 PM
In addition to ECS, I too was curious to ask about the doors. The first thing that jumped out to me in this thread was to ask about the doors. So, with that being said, would you consider the doors part of the body?
Thank you for your time,
Aaron
When you're referring to the shape of a vehicle in general terms, I would say yes, regardless if it is bolt-on or not, you still have to deal with replacement albeit it is easily replaced....
Quote from: Captain D on March 12, 2013, 03:47:00 PM
In addition to ECS, I too was curious to ask about the doors. The first thing that jumped out to me in this thread was to ask about the doors. So, with that being said, would you consider the doors part of the body?
Thank you for your time,
Aaron
It is a sad, sad situation concerning the fallout that many here do not realize has taken place. Ironically, this thread was started as a "congratulations" thread but the person who started it has complete knowledge of the backstabbing that has taken place by his crony and sidekick. Since Gene and John's Daytona has been targeted by this dishonest "click" concerning the facts, I have no problem disclosing the truth. I think everyone that witnessed the fake Broadcast Sheet ordeal, the Fake Fender Tag scenario and the claims of a "rust free" vehicle, know exactly what I am referring to. If they continue to spread lies about GREAT Guys like Gene Lewis, John, Paul, etc..... I have no problem exposing their shenanigans.
Mr. Honesty claimed that he didn't consider the floor pans to be part of the body of his vehicle AFTER the truth was exposed. Prior to those facts coming out, he and his restoration buddy claimed that the vehicle was completely "rust free". I think everyone knows that claim was nothing but an absolute falsehood. After reading his crooked editors attempt to provide additional damage control in a recent article, I thought that those lies should be exposed. The doors were ALSO rusted out with holes in the metal. I'm shocked that the restoration shop who did the work on the car continues to deny it having rust because admitting to the repairs would actually be an admirable testimonial to their abilities.
Gene Lewis won the
Best of Show which automatically made his Daytona the standout vehicle at the 2012 Mopar Nationals. It also earned the second highest OE score in the history of the event. These shysters are not going to re-write history because they didn't achieve their manipulated goals. If anyone doubts the holes in the doors, I will be happy to post the pictures of them!
Quote from: ECS on March 12, 2013, 11:21:49 PM
...Gene Lewis won the Best of Show which automatically made his Daytona the standout vehicle at the 2012 Mopar Nationals. It also earned the second highest OE score in the history of the event. ...
Wow !!!! Didn't know Geno did that !!! He's such a humble gent..................
Dave, you're still a stand-up guy to me............ :2thumbs: My daughter likes you too... She's into stickers bigtime...... Oh wait,,,, you make "decals"........ :)
Just bustin' your chops............ :icon_smile_big:
I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 13, 2013, 06:34:29 AM
I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.
For some, it's the challenge of doing it, it's a major goal... I love doing the OEM-correct route on occasion. But, like you Mark, the trophy is nothing.. Over the last 35 years I've probably lost more trophies to the attic gremlins than some who live for "the trophy". Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be recognized by your peers, but one shouldn't head to the show with the anticipation of getting something. I have this conversation many times with the newbies into the hobby, some get discouraged rather quickly... I like the :o I get on occassion... :2thumbs: <<< something you'll be getting a lot of once that '68 hits the road.....
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 13, 2013, 07:01:59 AM
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 13, 2013, 06:34:29 AM
I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.
For some, it's the challenge of doing it, it's a major goal... I love doing the OEM-correct route on occasion. But, like you Mark, the trophy is nothing.. Over the last 35 years I've probably lost more trophies to the attic gremlins than some who live for "the trophy". Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be recognized by your peers, but one shouldn't head to the show with the anticipation of getting something. I have this conversation many times with the newbies into the hobby, some get discouraged rather quickly... I like the :o I get on occassion... :2thumbs: <<< something you'll be getting a lot of once that '68 hits the road.....
I totally agree Troy.. The hard work and the compliments from people are enough for me. The trophies do nothing for me at all. For that matter, having to make stuff up about my cars to make a magazine article or story sound better is nuts!! Just not my cup of tea, but to each his own i guess. On a positive note Dave, Im excited to get my glass this week for my A12 thats almost done. Charlie said it turned out awesome!!! Its one of the last steps after I fire the motor next week. Thanks a lot... Eric
Quote from: Dr V on March 13, 2013, 07:31:05 AM
I totally agree Troy.. The hard work and the compliments from people are enough for me. The trophies do nothing for me at all. For that matter, having to make stuff up about my cars to make a magazine article or story sound better is nuts!! Just not my cup of tea, but to each his own i guess. On a positive note Dave, Im excited to get my glass this week for my A12 thats almost done. Charlie said it turned out awesome!!! Its one of the last steps after I fire the motor next week. Thanks a lot... Eric
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, A12 !!!??? you dog........ :icon_smile_big:
I was looking for one before I bought my wingcar 2 years ago. It became a reality last Thanksgiving. You might even be fond of the color Troy. EV2 4 speed with black tail stripe. EV
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 13, 2013, 06:34:29 AM
I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.
I didn't set out with that goal in mind anyway, and had zero intentions at the start of competing in OE. Even as my restoration became more and more focused on original-style details, I still didn't plan on competing, in part because of the tales of political gamesmanship relayed by Dave Walden and others. As the resto neared completion -- and after receiving some great feedback which improved the car over where it was before -- I decided to play along anyway since in our opinion the car was about as good as it can be.
Having gone through the process, it's not easy for
anyone to get a car into a condition worthy of consideration for an OE competition. All the competitors are to be commended for that effort. I'm more dismayed by what's happened after the 'Nats much more than what happened before or during the show, but Dave doesn't need any help in spelling out those details. I'm happy with the finished product - not because of an award, a trophy, article in the magazine, etc. - but because after doing years of research and parts scrounging, Vance and I restored the car in the best possible fashion using the best parts. THAT is the payoff, being satisfied with the finished product; and that same payoff can happen for
anyone in this hobby and at any level of restoration, not just the competitors in an OE competition. Don't get me wrong... it's still gratifying when recognition is given and others appreciate our hard work, but my goal was met before the show & judging ever started last August.
:Twocents:
I see another TV show in the works: Velocity Channel's Mopar OEM-Wars........
In all seriousness...... Tackling a quest of perfection is an admirable endeavour. But, based on the mentorship of one Geno, I'll heed his advise and REALLY comtemplate ever doing this. My former '68 Hemi Charger R/T was challenging enough. Try finding an original high-pressure power steering pump hose for a '68 B-body !!! It's a 1-year application... :brickwall: (found one though, good used) <<< a case of "never give up"........
Don't get me wrong Geno; what I previously posted wasn't meant to be a slam although I admit that it may sound that way. I poured over your pictures to help me in my restoration & that was helpful beyond belief. A 90+ point car as far as I'm concerned is as perfect as it gets. However, as we all know, judging can be very subjective & those who do not win may sometimes have a case of sour grapes and I may be mistaken, but it seems as though that this thread has turned in that direction.
Quote from: Dr V on March 13, 2013, 07:31:05 AM
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 13, 2013, 07:01:59 AM
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 13, 2013, 06:34:29 AM
I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.
For some, it's the challenge of doing it, it's a major goal... I love doing the OEM-correct route on occasion. But, like you Mark, the trophy is nothing.. Over the last 35 years I've probably lost more trophies to the attic gremlins than some who live for "the trophy". Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be recognized by your peers, but one shouldn't head to the show with the anticipation of getting something. I have this conversation many times with the newbies into the hobby, some get discouraged rather quickly... I like the :o I get on occassion... :2thumbs: <<< something you'll be getting a lot of once that '68 hits the road.....
I totally agree Troy.. The hard work and the compliments from people are enough for me. The trophies do nothing for me at all. For that matter, having to make stuff up about my cars to make a magazine article or story sound better is nuts!! Just not my cup of tea, but to each his own i guess. On a positive note Dave, Im excited to get my glass this week for my A12 thats almost done. Charlie said it turned out awesome!!! Its one of the last steps after I fire the motor next week. Thanks a lot... Eric
I couldn't agree with Eric and Troy more, however, there are some awards that I would like to win and would be really pissed if I lost to a heap of crap that was mis-represented or underserving of such award!
Quote from: hemigeno on March 13, 2013, 09:36:13 AM
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 13, 2013, 06:34:29 AM
I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.
I didn't set out with that goal in mind anyway, and had zero intentions at the start of competing in OE. Even as my restoration became more and more focused on original-style details, I still didn't plan on competing, in part because of the tales of political gamesmanship relayed by Dave Walden and others. As the resto neared completion -- and after receiving some great feedback which improved the car over where it was before -- I decided to play along anyway since in our opinion the car was about as good as it can be.
Having gone through the process, it's not easy for anyone to get a car into a condition worthy of consideration for an OE competition. All the competitors are to be commended for that effort. I'm more dismayed by what's happened after the 'Nats much more than what happened before or during the show, but Dave doesn't need any help in spelling out those details. I'm happy with the finished product - not because of an award, a trophy, article in the magazine, etc. - but because after doing years of research and parts scrounging, Vance and I restored the car in the best possible fashion using the best parts. THAT is the payoff, being satisfied with the finished product; and that same payoff can happen for anyone in this hobby and at any level of restoration, not just the competitors in an OE competition. Don't get me wrong... it's still gratifying when recognition is given and others appreciate our hard work, but my goal was met before the show & judging ever started last August.
:Twocents:
Excellent attitude towards everything that happened after the fact. In the end, that is all that you need to be happy with, the job you did and the end result of how you want the car to look! :2thumbs:
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 13, 2013, 10:38:35 AM
Try finding an original high-pressure power steering pump hose for a '68 B-body !!! It's a 1-year application... :brickwall: (found one though, good used) <<< a case of "never give up"........
I actually saw a NOS one on Ebay a while back Troy. 2k was starting bid or buy it now I don't remember which. Dosen't matter much as the first bidder would have probably been the only bidder at that price. Thought of you when I saw it as I remember you were looking for one at one time. You had the Daytona by that time though. I'm still looking for a NOS 69 Hemi hose too. Stuff can be hard to find on the other hand sometimes it amazes you what pops out of the wood work.
Quote from: Davtona on March 13, 2013, 05:21:28 PM
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 13, 2013, 10:38:35 AM
Try finding an original high-pressure power steering pump hose for a '68 B-body !!! It's a 1-year application... :brickwall: (found one though, good used) <<< a case of "never give up"........
I actually saw a NOS one on Ebay a while back Troy. 2k was starting bid or buy it now I don't remember which. Dosen't matter much as the first bidder would have probably been the only bidder at that price. Thought of you when I saw it as I remember you were looking for one at one time. You had the Daytona by that time though. I'm still looking for a NOS 69 Hemi hose too. Stuff can be hard to find on the other hand sometimes it amazes you what pops out of the wood work.
Yikes(!!!), at that price, I'm cleaning up my original one.
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 13, 2013, 06:07:46 PM
Yikes(!!!), at that price, I'm cleaning up my original one.
Ahhh, yes, I would..... Be willing to either spend a LOT of money OR, as Mr. Eastwood would say, "... feel lucky?"
Quote from: 70Sbird on March 12, 2013, 11:54:51 AM
Quote from: Dr V on March 12, 2013, 08:17:37 AM
I just read this thread and boy am I out of the loop.... IM LOST!!! EV
There's a half hour of your life you'll never get back!
::)
...fast reader?
i don't know what has gone on before, during, or after the show, but i would like some insight on why this particular car is being called a heap of crap. is it not a real daytona, with a really nice restoration? who here would not love to own it?
IF you are referencing my quote from above, I was saying in general (not specifically pointing to anyone on here) about how I felt if I lost to a "heap of crap" as I have at a judged event such as a certain Concours event in VT.
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 13, 2013, 06:31:44 AM
Wow !!!! Didn't know Geno did that !!! .....
Hi Troy! Thanks for the comments. Your quote above is a prime example of the problem that occurred regarding this ordeal. The Facts have been hidden! The point stressed by Cliff Gromer in his article on this topic had surmised that the "standout car" at this years Nationals was the White Daytona. That was NOT the case and just an attempt to provide damage control about a vehicle that he had already determined had won the event. Nowhere did he mention that the White car didn't win the Top Award! To the contrary, he made it appear as if that car was the winner!
(Gene Lewis' Red Daytona - Restored by Vance Cummins - won BEST of SHOW.) He also wrote how the White Daytona had more authentic original parts that any other Daytona on the planet. Both Gene and John's Daytona's had MORE original parts than the White car. Cliff also had the pictures and knowledge of the horrific rust that the White car had prior to restoration but did everything he could to hide that fact in the article. He did however indirectly attribute false information about the OTHER cars.
Take John's Redline tires on his Yellow Daytona for instance. Cliff wrote that his tires were incorrect for a 69 Hamtramck Daytona vehicle. I provided those tires to John. Prior to John receiving them from me, Tony tried numerous times to purchase them for his car. He even tried to have Steven Juliano talk me into selling them to him when Steven came up to visit me. I told Steven I would burn them before I sold them to Tony. I can't figure out why Tony wanted them if they were wrong? I guess they became the "wrong" tires for a Daytona AFTER I told him that I would never sell them to him. For the record, John and Paul Jacobs went to the Survivor tent to PROVE that those redlines were used on a 1969 Charger. A Survivor Hamtramck 69 Charger still had the EXACT same type of original redline spare in its trunk. Do you think the FACTS mattered to that upstanding and unbiased magazine editor? Of course not! He still wrote how the tires were "wrong" when they were proven to be correct! What a fiasco.
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 13, 2013, 06:34:29 AM
I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.
I agree 100%. For some people it goes way beyond what seems to be seen on the surface. A person's reputation and ethics are usually associated with the actions they express. Consider the link(s) I have posted below involving the person who started this thread. I know it is unrelated to this subject matter but since it relates to similar underhanded practices being discussed, I thought Mike could come here to shed some light on both scenarios! :2thumbs:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.0
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=86271.msg861351#msg861351
dave, i have to ask a couple of things.
1. this discussion you are part of goes far beyond the three daytonas at the nationals, but this question focuses directly on the cars and the awards. all three of them received gold. are you saying that perhaps not all of them deserved that status? no matter the starting point, it was the finished product that was judged. i don't know the cut-off point between the levels (gold/silver, etc), but did any of the three cars score low enough that it barely earned gold? are you saying the judging scores were manipulated to the advantage of just one, two, or all three of the cars?
2. since i don't have a score card, can we establish all of the players in what often seems to be a personal vendetta? i'm going from memory, but i think the short list includes one of the three daytona owners, the restoration shop of that daytona, at least one magazine editor, and every oe gold judge at the nationals within the last five years.
with three of these oe gold cars to your credit, i cannot imagine a better source of knowledge in this particular area of restoration. your last post states
Quote from: ECS on March 14, 2013, 12:58:50 AM
... a prime example of the problem that occurred regarding this ordeal. The Facts have been hidden!
i believe that comment is specific to the 2012 nationals event. other than the information shared on this forum, a large number of people know nothing more about the three cars, nor the information/misinformation in regard to them. you are certainly respected and qualified in this area, and claim to want the masses educated. i'd like to hear, from you, what the ordeal is, and what facts are missing. all three owners are members here, so what better place to set the matter straight.
Quote from: ECS on March 14, 2013, 12:58:50 AM
... Both Gene and John's Daytona's had MORE original parts than the White car...
I don't know the extent of Tony's process, but I DO KNOW Geno's. We had long chats about this and about that regarding the extent of him finding original parts, material, etc for the car.... Sometimes I felt like saying, as Cher said in
Moonstruck, " Snap out of it !!! " :slap: :lol:
The man was on a Mission !!!!! Our military needs leaders like this... :coolgleamA:
Your questions should be directed at the "click" who continues to lie about the other two Daytona's. I can't answer why they went behind Gene & John's back and contacted magazine editors to print false things about their cars. I have my thoughts as to why they did it and believe I have made those points perfectly clear. Like I stated in my last post, maybe Mike can come here to explain the controversies that are starting to surface as they relate to his projects.
Quote from: held1823 on March 14, 2013, 09:52:55 AM
...
1. this discussion you are part of goes far beyond the three daytonas at the nationals, but this question focuses directly on the cars and the awards. all three of them received gold. are you saying that perhaps not all of them deserved that status? no matter the starting point, it was the finished product that was judged. i don't know the cut-off point between the levels (gold/silver, etc), but did any of the three cars score low enough that it barely earned gold? are you saying the judging scores were manipulated to the advantage of just one, two, or all three of the cars?
...
I don't make the rules/criteria on these top-level judging events, so I'm in NO position to be a judge. But, from a novices point of view I have this observation. If there is so much emphasis placed on original parts being used and/or NOS parts, wouldn't it hold true for the sheetmetal. It is one thing to replace a rusted/damaged panel with a NOS piece ( something we all strive to even find let alone actually have the luxury of using ), but it's another to be able to keep the original panel. In my eye, an original panel even trumps a NOS piece...
Just my :Twocents:
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 14, 2013, 10:14:46 AM
Quote from: held1823 on March 14, 2013, 09:52:55 AM
...
1. this discussion you are part of goes far beyond the three daytonas at the nationals, but this question focuses directly on the cars and the awards. all three of them received gold. are you saying that perhaps not all of them deserved that status? no matter the starting point, it was the finished product that was judged. i don't know the cut-off point between the levels (gold/silver, etc), but did any of the three cars score low enough that it barely earned gold? are you saying the judging scores were manipulated to the advantage of just one, two, or all three of the cars?
...
I don't make the rules/criteria on these top-level judging events, so I'm in NO position to be a judge. But, from a novices point of view I have this observation. If there is so much emphasis placed on original parts being used and/or NOS parts, wouldn't it hold true for the sheetmetal. It is one thing to replace a rusted/damaged panel with a NOS piece ( something we all strive to even find let alone actually have the luxury of using ), but it's another to be able to keep the original panel. In my eye, an original panel even trumps a NOS piece...
Just my :Twocents:
You would think that would be the case!
Quote from: ECS on March 14, 2013, 10:02:28 AM
Your questions should be directed at the "click" who continues to lie about the other two Daytona's. I can't answer why they went behind Gene & John's back and contacted magazine editors to print false things about their cars. I have my thoughts as to why they did it and believe I have made those points perfectly clear. Like I stated in my last post, maybe Mike can come here to explain the controversies that are starting to surface as they relate to his projects.
regarding the magazines; not all of us have read them. what false things are being said about gene's and/or john's cars? i addressed my question to YOU, as you are certainly the foremost expert on oe-gold restorations; three of them sitting in your garage attests to that. gene and john have not shared their thoughts on the matter, so it could be considered impolite to ask them to explain things.
since you defer to answer, help me out here. who is part of the "click" behind this? i certainly don't mind asking them, once i know who to ask. i would, however, like to know your thoughts, as apparently i am not grasping what is already "perfectly clear". am i focusing too much on the daytonas, and not enough on the unrelated stuff?
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 14, 2013, 10:14:46 AM
I don't make the rules/criteria on these top-level judging events, so I'm in NO position to be a judge. But, from a novices point of view I have this observation. If there is so much emphasis placed on original parts being used and/or NOS parts, wouldn't it hold true for the sheetmetal. It is one thing to replace a rusted/damaged panel with a NOS piece ( something we all strive to even find let alone actually have the luxury of using ), but it's another to be able to keep the original panel. In my eye, an original panel even trumps a NOS piece... Just my :Twocents:
so what is the contention, among these three cars? does the white car have aftermarket panels, rather than factory ones? i understand the emphasis on a factory part over a reproduction, although the hobby can get downright silly when it comes to defining original versus nos parts. by definition, both are "original" parts. chrysler made them; it doesn't get any more original than that.
the line becomes blurred when redefining an original part as being the one unique piece that came attached to a certain car. regarding the re-use of an original panel, i fail to see the distinction between welding on a nos panel, versus filling in a large rust hole with what, exactly? a piece from another factory panel? is that still considered the unique original, because the repaired area no longer is.
the more i read about this, the more i start to see mike g's point about them just being machines...
I think the issue is comparing vehicle A with having all original sheet metal to vehicle B that either has aftermarket repro or pieces used off of a donor car. I would imagine that since it is "original equipment (OE) " that full credit should be given to vehicle A that has all of its original metal that it was born with. One thing to consider is that assembly line parts were not necessarily the same as over the counter NOS parts. Perfect example is the green assembly line oil filter. Over the counter NOS ones could have been obtained in the red, white, and blue. NOS? Absolutely, however, not assembly line correct! Now if someone were to repro that green assembly line oil filter, should such person get full credit of points vs. someone who has a pristine original assembly line one?
Quote from: resq302 on March 14, 2013, 11:36:40 AM
I think the issue is comparing vehicle A with having all original sheet metal to vehicle B that either has aftermarket repro or pieces used off of a donor car. I would imagine that since it is "original equipment (OE) " that full credit should be given to vehicle A that has all of its original metal that it was born with. One thing to consider is that assembly line parts were not necessarily the same as over the counter NOS parts. Perfect example is the green assembly line oil filter. Over the counter NOS ones could have been obtained in the red, white, and blue. NOS? Absolutely, however, not assembly line correct! Now if someone were to repro that green assembly line oil filter, should such person get full credit of points vs. someone who has a pristine original assembly line one?
I think repops of the green filters should be banned altogether :icon_smile_big: :nana:
If they made green filters, you'd stockplie them. Don't pretend. I've seen your socks :lol:
Quote from: resq302 on March 14, 2013, 11:36:40 AM
I think the issue is comparing vehicle A with having all original sheet metal to vehicle B that either has aftermarket repro or pieces used off of a donor car. I would imagine that since it is "original equipment (OE) " that full credit should be given to vehicle A that has all of its original metal that it was born with. One thing to consider is that assembly line parts were not necessarily the same as over the counter NOS parts. Perfect example is the green assembly line oil filter. Over the counter NOS ones could have been obtained in the red, white, and blue. NOS? Absolutely, however, not assembly line correct! Now if someone were to repro that green assembly line oil filter, should such person get full credit of points vs. someone who has a pristine original assembly line one?
valid explanation about the sheet metal, but if i am not mistaken, aren't the cars being scored against a judging sheet, and not each other? if so, what is the underlying issue in this instance? why is the white car so controversial?
you mention the oil filters. is the part number the same for the green and r/w/b items? does any assembly line installed oil filter from 1969 still exist? i've seen a few replacement ones in boxes discussed, but those would not be assembly line parts.
The oil filter I had on the car dealer replacement
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/DCP_0023.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/daytonaorig2.jpg)
Quote from: pettybird on March 14, 2013, 11:56:52 AM
If they made green filters, you'd stockplie them. Don't pretend. I've seen your socks :lol:
they are not the correct shade for my liking :icon_smile_approve: :icon_smile_approve: :icon_smile_approve:
Yes, there are still the green "assembly line correct" NOS filters out there but they are probably close to about $900 or more if not by now. The part number is still the same regardless of it being a green assembly line one or the later red, white, and blue.
Again, I have never participated in this kind of judged event so I do not know first hand, but from what I have been led to believe, they are judged against Chrysler standards so they must have some kind of a requirement sheet. So, in a way, yes, you are competing against the standards of the corporation but at the same time, competing against each other too for best in show. For example, in the AACA where I am a judge, in order to get your first place junior award, you have to score AT LEAST a 365 out of 400 points AND be within 10 points of the highest scoring car. Why would someone say, try and strive for a score of 366 just to get a first place when they should be trying for a perfect score. I have lost with our el camino at the AACA Grand National judged event and gotten a second place because of some small overlooked things. Improperly bolted in seat belts. (we had a male under the female on the hump side of the seat) With the Grand National, you need to score a 385 or better and be within 5 points of the highest scoring car to get your Grand National First Place. We were over the 385 points but missed the mark due to not being in that 5 point spread. So, essentially, you should try to strive for a perfect score and hope that you get no deductions.
I think the whole reason that the white car is so controversial is that it is being misrepresented for what it was. To be quoted in multiple magazine articles as saying that were was "no rust what so ever!" and "body rot was not an issue. As a matter of fact it was virtually non-existent." is an outright blatant lie due to the floor boards being holier than swiss cheese in some areas. And then to go and back track and try to cover it up by saying that floor boards are not part of the body? Sorry, but that is an integral part of the uni-BODY construction! Then (and this is only here-say on my part) go and try to complain to the judges about deficiencies about the other cars because they scored better than the car they did to try and knock the competition down so they look better is just down right low in my book. But again, that is what I heard from people who were at the show and another show where all three daytonas were at.
I don't mind telling people the truth about my car. Yes, it has had both quarters and the trunk floor replaced. The car is 40+ years old! They were prone to doing that. Shoot, I hope to be in as good a shape as my charger is in when I hit that age! But like what has been shown here, the truth will come out and the lies that have been told will only tarnish ones character for the future.
Quote from: resq302 on March 14, 2013, 12:36:01 PM
I think the whole reason that the white car is so controversial is that it is being misrepresented for what it was. To be quoted in multiple magazine articles as saying that were was "no rust what so ever!" and "body rot was not an issue. As a matter of fact it was virtually non-existent." is an outright blatant lie due to the floor boards being holier than swiss cheese in some areas. And then to go and back track and try to cover it up by saying that floor boards are not part of the body? Sorry, but that is an integral part of the uni-BODY construction! Then (and this is only here-say on my part) go and try to complain to the judges about deficiencies about the other cars because they scored better than the car they did to try and knock the competition down so they look better is just down right low in my book. But again, that is what I heard from people who were at the show and another show where all three daytonas were at.
From what I have gleaned from this thread there everything you said above is part of the "misrepresentation." There is also a lot of talk about repro build sheets. Not sure where that falls into the back-and-forth debate. I don't see misrepresenting the condition of the floors as big of a deal as the BS.
Quote from: duanesterrr on March 14, 2013, 12:50:50 PM
Quote from: resq302 on March 14, 2013, 12:36:01 PM
I think the whole reason that the white car is so controversial is that it is being misrepresented for what it was. To be quoted in multiple magazine articles as saying that were was "no rust what so ever!" and "body rot was not an issue. As a matter of fact it was virtually non-existent." is an outright blatant lie due to the floor boards being holier than swiss cheese in some areas. And then to go and back track and try to cover it up by saying that floor boards are not part of the body? Sorry, but that is an integral part of the uni-BODY construction! Then (and this is only here-say on my part) go and try to complain to the judges about deficiencies about the other cars because they scored better than the car they did to try and knock the competition down so they look better is just down right low in my book. But again, that is what I heard from people who were at the show and another show where all three daytonas were at.
From what I have gleaned from this thread there everything you said above is part of the "misrepresentation." There is also a lot of talk about repro build sheets. Not sure where that falls into the back-and-forth debate. I don't see misrepresenting the condition of the floors as big of a deal as the BS.
question also is was it just missing a build sheet or was it getting one to cover up other options being added :shruggy:
Those are all very good points. When one gets caught in a lie, it starts to cloud the actual truth. Like Stuart said, if the build sheet is fake, (we all have our feelings about that) what is to say that other options might have been added or removed to make such a car more desireable? In my line of work, if you lose credibility, you pretty much just lost your case! IF this indeed did happen to this vehicle, how many other vehicles like this has it been done to? Its like a bird landing on a branch that has snow on it up on top of a mountain. Once that little bit of snow falls, and the avalanche starts, there is no stopping it! All you can do is try to hopefully out run it. Sometimes, you get swallowed up by it and its game over! :RedXShoot:
now we are getting somewhere, with the focus on the cars and not the extracurrical nonsense. digital photography is both cheap and easy, so one might expect a photo to be taken about every thirty seconds during the restoration process. this would be a chance to showcase one's skills, rather than cause for hiding the condition of the starting point. kudos for gene, for doing exactly that with the thread on his restoration found on here. regardless, the final product is what is being scored. isn't that what happened at the show?
if the build sheet was faked, that is indeed an issue, especially given that half of these cars had the wrong build sheet in them to begin with. wouldn't an oe-restoration require keeping the wrong build sheet with a particular car, if that was how it was constructed? how do you deduct for a missing build sheet, if it was missing from day one?
to expound on stuart's comment, adding options would require a fake fender tag, as well. is that a concern with the white car?
never mind, while i was typing the reply above, the focus wandered from the car and back to owner/restorer credibility.
what options could be added to a daytona build sheet to make it more valuable? the colors and drive train of this car were already known. restamping any parts with the vin is the only thing that i can think of, and that has nothing to do with the build sheet
It would seem many of the "judging issues" come from irregularities in the production line. There is no way for us 40+ years later to know what happened on the car was born. Like mentioned above, if a car did not have a BS the day it rollled off the line how can a judge dock points for not having one? That doesn't make sense.
My limited and otherwise worthless opinion is that a OE Gold level restoration is reached when a restorer goes above and beyond to take a car back to its original state. This is not a level that is easily reached. When the level is reached, cars will be deducted points for this and that. Some are valid deductions while others are subjective. There is no way to get around the subjective deductions... it will be part of every judging contest. Because of this fact, I will look at all gold level cars with the same admiration. Kudos to those who take the time/effort/cash to preserve a piece of history.
You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here. Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II. I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect..... It's all starting to unfold now. I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15
Quote from: ECS on March 14, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here. Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II. I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect..... It's all starting to unfold now. I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15
Mr. Walden. In regards to the promo challengers, these are two seperate cars...You would realize that if you had any intelligence whatsoever. Please continue your fabricated accusations, slander and defamation of character... they are building my case nicely. In regards to the other BS items, this has already been hashed out over and over again, nothing but spun stories and lies. I refuse to battle wits with un-armed people.
Mike
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 14, 2013, 04:18:23 PM
Quote from: ECS on March 14, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here. Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II. I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect..... It's all starting to unfold now. I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15
Mr. Walden. In regards to the promo challengers, these are two seperate cars...You would realize that if you had any intelligence whatsoever. Please continue your fabricated accusations, slander and defamation of character... they are building my case nicely. In regards to the other BS items, this has already been hashed out over and over again, nothing but spun stories and lies. I refuse to battle wits with un-armed people.
Mike
Well here's what you need to do big mike. Since you have already lied and claimed to have sent me legal papers concerning the things you state I have "lied" about, do me a HUGE favor! REALLY contact your Attorney, come after me for whatever "slander" you just referenced and lets open this can of worms up for the entire Automotive World to see. I am ready when you are big shot! :yesnod:
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 14, 2013, 10:14:46 AM
I don't make the rules/criteria on these top-level judging events, so I'm in NO position to be a judge. But, from a novices point of view I have this observation. If there is so much emphasis placed on original parts being used and/or NOS parts, wouldn't it hold true for the sheetmetal. It is one thing to replace a rusted/damaged panel with a NOS piece ( something we all strive to even find let alone actually have the luxury of using ), but it's another to be able to keep the original panel. In my eye, an original panel even trumps a NOS piece...
Just my :Twocents:
Not sure I agree completely on that. Depends on the condition of the original panel. If we are talking about an original pristine probably low mileage car. With quarter panels that have never been patched or repaired in any way and do not need any. Then I agree the original panel trumps replacing it with a NOS piece. Sad to say those cars are very far and few between unfortunately. However if that original quarter panel for example has been patched or repaired, welded or body puttied up then I would prefer the NOS panel any day. What is the advantage of having repaired/patched panel over a NOS one other than cost. A good professional job can be done on NOS quarter installation and you won't be able to tell it isn't the original quarter panel. In fact that is why so many NOS parts are required for a high level restoration. Because the assembly line correct NOS part is superior to the used original worn/refurbished part. I have never noticed any differences between assembly line sheet metal and NOS sheet metal. Now reproduction I guess I don't know about. :Twocents:
Quote from: Davtona on March 14, 2013, 09:21:22 PM
...
Not sure I agree completely on that. Depends on the condition of the original panel...
In my head, it was an implied thing... I agree, some panels are meant to be saved, some aren't...... Classic example was the humorous attempt of Mark to save the '71 'Cuda fender......... ( if you saw the show and that episode ).......
Sometimes all the thoughts in one's head doesn't transfer to the "reply" box... Now I know why my good buddy here locally in H-town hates texting. :lol:
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 14, 2013, 04:18:23 PM
Quote from: ECS on March 14, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here. Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II. I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect..... It's all starting to unfold now. I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15
Mr. Walden. In regards to the promo challengers, these are two seperate cars...You would realize that if you had any intelligence whatsoever. Please continue your fabricated accusations, slander and defamation of character... they are building my case nicely. In regards to the other BS items, this has already been hashed out over and over again, nothing but spun stories and lies. I refuse to battle wits with un-armed people.
Mike
Yeah Dave, its apparent that everything you do ends up being a screwed up mess! I mean, look at all those incorrect restorations you've done. Surely you would have gotten it right the third time around! :lol:
Mike,
I would imagine that Mr. Walden is indeed intelligent and is a master of fabrication! Look at the 4 door cuda he and his crew are making! But I guess that could be done by just any average "Joe". So when are you planning on fabricating something new?
"Take John's Redline tires on his Yellow Daytona for instance. Cliff wrote that his tires were incorrect for a 69 Hamtramck Daytona vehicle. I provided those tires to John. Prior to John receiving them from me, Tony tried numerous times to purchase them for his car. He even tried to have Steven Juliano talk me into selling them to him when Steven came up to visit me. I told Steven I would burn them before I sold them to Tony. I can't figure out why Tony wanted them if they were wrong? I guess they became the "wrong" tires for a Daytona AFTER I told him that I would never sell them to him. For the record, John and Paul Jacobs went to the Survivor tent to PROVE that those redlines were used on a 1969 Charger. A Survivor Hamtramck 69 Charger still had the EXACT same type of original redline spare in its trunk. Do you think the FACTS mattered to that upstanding and unbiased magazine editor? Of course not! He still wrote how the tires were "wrong" when they were proven to be correct! What a fiasco. "
Dave you mean this spare Goodyear Speedway? Maybe some hot shot magazine can convince the original 70 year old owner that didn't come in his trunk! Just to be 100% accurate this was a 69 Bee with May production date...
Speedway
Date code-
funny I didn't think Speedways were issued in 69 but this sure looks like April 1969 to me!
Paul,
You are obviously mistaken! :pity: Don't you know that the 70 yr old man had that fabricated just to fool you! After all, what we read in the magazines HAS to be the truth, right? Otherwise, they wouldn't publish lies. Who would want to read a bunch of lies? :smilielol: That reminds me.... I gotta renew a subsciption so I have some more toilet paper. :lol:
Quote from: paul jacobs on March 14, 2013, 10:13:14 PM
Date code-
funny I didn't think Speedways were issued in 69 but this sure looks like April 1969 to me!
Paul, Paul, Paul............PLEASE stop screwing up a perfectly good article, written by a clueless editor, who is diligently trying to re-write history for a couple of whiners, cry babies and sore losers. You should know better than to use pictorial facts on this forum. It does nothing but stop the typical, opinionated arguing dead in its tracks! :rofl:
Oh yeah....I almost forgot to answer your question.....YES.......that was the exact spare tire I was referring to!
C'mon guys..... we all know that FACTS stands for:
Fictitious
Acts
Carefully
Tricked
Subjects
remember...... just the facts! :smilielol:
Quote from: resq302 on March 14, 2013, 10:06:12 PM
Yeah Dave, its apparent that everything you do ends up being a screwed up mess! I mean, look at all those incorrect restorations you've done. Surely you would have gotten it right the third time around! :lol:
Mike,
I would imagine that Mr. Walden is indeed intelligent and is a master of fabrication! Look at the 4 door cuda he and his crew are making! But I guess that could be done by just any average "Joe". So when are you planning on fabricating something new?
It's sad when you have to explain that I obviously knew it was a different car. That was the point! ANOTHER vehicle with a shady story behind it. Even better though, lets review a few "intelligent" OE facts:
*A HUGE Buildsheet hanging from a Show car that was used to signify an incomplete vehicle on the assembly line!?! :scratchchin:
*A 1970 Window Sticker that was doctored and incorrectly displayed on a 1969 OE vehicle!?! :scratchchin:
*Two wheel weights on an OE car which would have been a DMV violation for an Assembly Line Vehicle!?! :scratchchin:
I could go on but just those simple things alone would have caused me to walk right past the car without a second look. If those OBVIOUS things were screwed up, no telling what else was wrong! Lets just put it this way Master B......I would have to have 7/8th of my brain surgically removed just to sit down and have a conversation with him at his level of intelligence. (No smiley face inserted because I am being completely serious.)
Quote from: ECS on March 14, 2013, 11:05:57 PM
Quote from: resq302 on March 14, 2013, 10:06:12 PM
Yeah Dave, its apparent that everything you do ends up being a screwed up mess! I mean, look at all those incorrect restorations you've done. Surely you would have gotten it right the third time around! :lol:
Mike,
I would imagine that Mr. Walden is indeed intelligent and is a master of fabrication! Look at the 4 door cuda he and his crew are making! But I guess that could be done by just any average "Joe". So when are you planning on fabricating something new?
It's sad when you have to explain that I obviously knew it was a different car. That was the point! ANOTHER vehicle with a shady story behind it. Even better though, lets review a few "intelligent" OE facts:
*A HUGE Buildsheet hanging from a Show car that was used to signify an incomplete vehicle on the assembly line!?! :scratchchin:
*A 1970 Window Sticker that was doctored and incorrectly displayed on a 1969 OE vehicle!?! :scratchchin:
*Two wheel weights on an OE car which would have been a DMV violation for an Assembly Line Vehicle!?! :scratchchin:
I could go on but just those simple things alone would have caused me to walk right past the car without a second look. If those OBVIOUS things were screwed up, no telling what else was wrong! Lets just put it this way Master B......I would have to have 7/8th of my brain surgically removed just to sit down and have a conversation with him at his level of intelligence. (No smiley face inserted because I am being completely serious.)
With those big things, you have to wonder how it still achieved a gold? :scratchchin: :rotz:
Quote from: resq302 on March 14, 2013, 11:10:53 PM
With those big things, you have to wonder how it still achieved a gold? :scratchchin: :rotz:
Did It?
Why? has something changed? I thought all 3 daytonas won gold at the nats?
I would just like to say....
THIS IS WHY I BUILD RESTOMODS
Quote from: ECS on March 14, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here. Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II. I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect..... It's all starting to unfold now. I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15
"you guys", or at least this guy, is concentrating on the white daytona. not its owner, nor its restorer. since the white daytona isn't the focus of a thread about the white daytona, help me understand your point with the post that i quoted here. you recreated a build sheet for js27v0b100430, and then make reference to a post about js27v0b100421? (i am assuming a typo on the sixth digit, in that post). i assume your nemesis restored the first car, but you'll have to explain the significance of the second one.
I have no "nemesis" with anyone! If it appears that way, it is they who have established that type of relationship. Every story/link is out there explaining the situation. There is really nothing more to explain. :2thumbs:
Master B.... Are you on the payroll?
Damn! My rapper alias is out of the bag! Now I'll have to worry about those drive by shootings that the rappers do. ::)
Chris, if I am on the pay roll, I haven't seen a dime of it yet. :smilielol: Must be all those new taxes imposed by the government. :shruggy:
I will say this though, IF I was working for Dave, (which I am not), I sure would enjoy my job a lot more than dealing with all the scum and low lifes that we bring in at my job now. Yes, I do like helping people at my job as it is a way of giving back to the community, however, you get to a point where all the negativity starts effecting you and it starts to come home with you. Many a time, you have the realization that the human race is doomed to its own demise. (again, working where I do, there really isn't any positive reinforcement or vibes unless you safe someones life, or catch the bad guy, which the majority of the time is just the most idiotic, insane calls that you can possibly think of that you wonder why people make complaints about stuff like that.)
Quote from: ECS on March 15, 2013, 07:22:48 AM
I have no "nemesis" with anyone! If it appears that way, it is they who have established that type of relationship. Every story/link is out there explaining the situation. There is really nothing more to explain. :2thumbs:
point me to the story/link that explains how two different challengers are entwined with a engine block alledgedly restamped by a restoration shop whose owner you are at odds with for whatever reason(s). the link that you shared above does not seem to support the allegation.
I'm honestly not seeing the correlation between AACA judging and OE-judging. Other than being points-based, it is completely apples to oranges.
I've seen cars score highly & achieve Junior/Senior/Grand National AACA status the wrong color, added or incorrect options, incorrect finishes, etc etc. Not saying it's a joke, but OE-Certification it is NOT. There is simply no comparison.
I commend all three Daytona owners on a job well done, despite the flying rumors that are out there. (I honestly don't know of all the "factual information" that's out there so I can only take some of this as flying rumors.)
Let's face it, as the NOS/mint original parts supply dries up, it's going to be harder & harder to restore these cars using 100% (or close to it) original parts.
Bill,
You are quite right about AACA. It is similar, but not as strict as OE judging goes. A lot of the problem has to do with AACA having judges who might not necessarily know Mopars but know Chevelles judging an open year class for say the 60s. The last couple of years they have started breaking down classes a little better, such as Factory Hi Perf Mopar however, that span at least 8 years or so in the category. AACA also allows optional stuff that the dealer could have added on too which ( I am not sure) OE judging might or might not allow. So yes, they are similar but like you said, are apples to oranges regarding how strict the stuff is and what the judges supposedly know. One huge advantage for the Nats is that the OE judges specialize in Mopar where as AACA you could get a guy judging a Mopar who knows Mustangs inside and out.
I absolutely agree that it will be harder and harder to use original and NOS stuff the longer these cars survive. There is no debating that. However, if a judging program is OE then it should not give full credit for repro parts no matter how exact to originals they are.
Quote from: held1823 on March 15, 2013, 02:13:45 PM
point me to the story/link that explains how two different challengers are entwined with a engine block alledgedly restamped by a restoration shop whose owner you are at odds with for whatever reason(s). the link that you shared above does not seem to support the allegation.
I will be happy to do so if you will please point out ONE post where I have accused any particular shop or person (specifically by their formal name) with what you are referencing. I will state or express ANYTHING as it pertains to the facts. That is why I have WELCOMED the threats from those individuals if they want to come after me legally! They better be ready to open themselves up to a World of scrutiny however! I will counter and involve EVERY individual and/or group associated with the garbage that has been occurring behind the scenes. If they want this stopped, they need to shut their mouths, go about their business and stop lying about the efforts of myself and others. Otherwise....lets get it on!
edit-
i've found all the information i need, to form an opinion regarding the e bodies. thanks for allowing me to play along.
Brian, not hijack this thread any more than it has been, but re-read my reply. The ONLY similarity I mention between AACA & OE Certification judging is that the judge sheet is points based. The buck stops there.
I'm not down-playing the AACA in any way (I'm a member too), but let's face it. ANYTHING goes. Wrong colors, incorrect finishes on parts or incorrect parts themselves, added options, anything. It is more about PRESENTATION than it is about ACCURACY. I can say that with confidence having participated in BOTH.
BOTH sides have their place. It DOES take some skill to achieve AACA awards, no doubt. But cars being shown in AACA events are not scrutinized in the way they are in OE Certification, Bloomington Gold, etc etc.
Enough with the AACA stuff already, it has no place here.
Carry on with the debate.
:popcrn:
to return the topic to the daytona, i have a question for you concerning the build sheet that you created from hand written information supplied to you. you did not "age" the sheet and pass it off as an original as you insist has happened, but you did print it knowing that it might be incorrect. did you inadvertently help this very car achieve its oe-gold status with a questionable piece of documentation?
to put this question into perspective, you made at least one prior build sheet for mancini (the challenger convertible). according to your own statements, that sheet was also reprinted from hand written information. you are a bright man, and surely had some reservation about the correctness of what you were recreating in both instances, though obviously not enough to turn either job down. given that you already had reservations about the correctness of the challenger's build sheet, why would you do the exact same thing for the daytona?
Quote from: held1823 on March 15, 2013, 08:21:45 PM
to return the topic to the daytona, i have a question for you concerning the build sheet that you created from hand written information supplied to you. you did not "age" the sheet and pass it off as an original as you insist has happened, but you did print it knowing that it might be incorrect. did you inadvertently help this very car achieve its oe-gold status with a questionable piece of documentation?
When I made it for Tony, it was NEVER conveyed to me that he was entering the vehicle in the OE competition. To the contrary, he had told me that he would never subject himself to the scrutiny that he saw my cars receive following the event(s). Ironically, it was HE that was criticizing my cars under his forum aliases. For the record, a Broadcast Sheet is not a mandatory requirement to enter the OE competition. It is considered "extra credit" along with any other paperwork like the Window Sticker, Invoice, Traveler Sheet, etc.....
From here forward, you should direct your questions to Tony concerning what he turned over to the OE Judges as "original paperwork". He was responsible for the reproduction build sheet after I sent it to him. A small handful of you have continuously tried to hold me responsible for his actions. I've commented as much as I can regarding my part of the scenario. You need ask him why he tried to pass it off as an "original" to the OE judges, the Magazine Editors and to the forum Members here at DC.com.
my question isn't for tony. it is for you. i will ask it again...
given that you already had reservations about the correctness of the challenger's build sheet, why would you do the exact same thing for the daytona?
Quote from: held1823 on March 15, 2013, 09:28:04 PM
my question isn't for tony. it is for you. i will ask it again...
given that you already had reservations about the correctness of the challenger's build sheet, why would you do the exact same thing for the daytona?
I never questioned the "correctness" of the Challenger at the time I made the sheet! I thought Mike & I were Friends, I trusted him and never suspected what eventually would occur between us. I've never claimed to be a fortune teller! None of this "garbage" came to the surface until AFTER both build sheets had already been made and in their possession. If you had read previous posts, you would recall that I refused to make Tony a Window Sticker for his car after finding out what had been taking place behind the scenes.
thank you. that is the answer i hoped to hear in regard to the timeline.
He was responsible for the reproduction build sheet after I sent it to him.... A small handful of you have continuously tried to hold me responsible for his actions.
The sheet you made for my customers challenger was for display purposes only, it was never a secret that it was a reproduction. Regardless of the intention of the reproduction sheet. No quantity of debate is going to change your assertions that it was construction for some sort of deceptive purposes.
I think it is the duty of the fake build sheet fabricator to come forth with a list of ALL the many fake, reproduction, display build sheets he has ever made so that their is no more secrecy. ECS owes it to the hobby and it is only right that the public be aware of the buildsheets you have fabricated to prevent ANY deception in the future
A separate thread should be started for the list, I'll leave it in ECS's hands to do the right thing by the hobbiests, being such a righteous and scrupulous man, I am sure he will have no problem providing the list of fakes he has made!
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 15, 2013, 10:10:57 PM
He was responsible for the reproduction build sheet after I sent it to him.... A small handful of you have continuously tried to hold me responsible for his actions.
The sheet you made for my customers challenger was for display purposes only, it was never a secret that it was a reproduction. Regardless of the intention of the reproduction sheet. No quantity of debate is going to change your assertions that it was construction for some sort of deceptive purposes.
I think it is the duty of the fake build sheet fabricator to come forth with a list of ALL the many fake, reproduction, display build sheets he has ever made so that their is no more secrecy. ECS owes it to the hobby and it is only right that the public be aware of the buildsheets you have fabricated to prevent ANY deception in the future
A separate thread should be started for the list, I'll leave it in ECS's hands to do the right thing by the hobbiests, being such a righteous and scrupulous man, I am sure he will have no problem providing the list of fakes he has made!
I certainly understand your sentiments Mike but at this point, you and Tony are the only one's I am aware of who have taken my reproductions and made them "Fake". Should anyone else attempt what you guys have, I can assure you that I will disclose and make those deceptive practices public. Until that happens, your assumptions of "others" is nothing more than than speculation based on your guilt!
Dave, regarding build sheets that you have printed for friends / trusted customers / future ex-friends, in the past you have hidden behind the explanation of "I have no control over how people use our products." I find that explanation very weak. You cannot be so naive to not realize that any build sheet you create has the potential to become "real" over time. I really do not see how ANY customer could be trusted with a reproduction build sheet without a water mark. This is not a window sticker. It's THE document most often used to document a Mopar. I do not understand why you feel the need to undermine that by printing copies that could go undetected by the masses.
Guilt? Amazing you know so little about so much.
You should make the list public. I am sure everyone will agree, the fakes should not be hidden....future fraud could happen Dave!! Maybe not by your paying customers but perhaps 5, 10, 20 years down the road, they could be passed off as real!! You should abide by your own MOTTO you feature at the base of each of your worldy posts.
Quote from: Aero426 on March 15, 2013, 10:20:48 PM
Dave, regarding build sheets that you have printed for friends / trusted customers / future ex-friends, in the past you have hidden behind the explanation of "I have no control over how people use our products." I find that explanation very weak. You cannot be so naive to not realize that any build sheet you create has the potential to become "real" over time. I really do not see how ANY customer could be trusted with a reproduction build sheet without a water mark. This is not a window sticker. It's THE document most often used to document a Mopar. I do not understand why you feel the need to undermine that by printing copies that could go undetected by the masses.
Which is why we don't make them anymore and haven't for a long time! Your logic is humorous at best. We are licensed to make MANY products that people could attempt to falsify. Our VIN Stickers, Window Stickers, Traveler Sheets, Exhaust Systems, etc..... Using you logic, the U.S Treasury should quit making currency because there are crooks who will counterfeit their legal currency. We are LICENSED by the manufacturers to do what we do! You guys act as if we are some fly by night Company that is boot legging the products we manufacture. Again, why don't you direct your sentiments to those have been PROVEN to do the very deceptive antics that you continue to critique?
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 15, 2013, 10:25:57 PM
Guilt? Amazing you know so little about so much.
You should make the list public. I am sure everyone will agree, the fakes should not be hidden....future fraud could happen Dave!! Maybe not by your paying customers but perhaps 5, 10, 20 years down the road, they could be passed off as real!! You should abide by your own MOTTO you feature at the base of each of your worldy posts.
It's amazing how all the "honest" people who get caught, suddenly becomes so resolute about morality & ethics. Why don't you start the process by explaining why you guys tried to pass them off as being original when they were not. The truth shall set you free......
The truth seems to elude you....in fact my previous reponses must not be sinking in either. I never claimed the challengers buildsheet to be real. it was displayed with the car as a reproduction. I have been very honest about some of the info even being guessed at. Wake up!!
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 15, 2013, 10:42:59 PM
The truth seems to elude you....in fact my previous reponses must not be sinking in either. I never claimed the challengers buildsheet to be real. it was displayed with the car as a reproduction. I have been very honest about some of the info even being guessed at. Wake up!!
Of course Mike! That is why my reproduction sheet (that was requested by you) ended up being pictured and listed as the "original" when the car was listed for sale on eBay. I think I'll just continue to stay in my sleep mode and leave the "smart" stuff to guys like you. Best of luck & take care young man!
Goes back to the sporting good stores selling bats concept Dave. I got it for a display for my customers car...... The car popped up on ebay 2 years after I delivered the car by a totally different owner than my customer. I'm to blame??
This is exactly why I feel a list should be divulged, to prevent possible frauds. You should do it. It's the best thing for the hobby! The good of the hobby is your prime goal right?
I think any reproduction broadcast sheet is a fake broadcast sheet. Period. End of story.
Something this significant to our hobby should never be available to anyone. Not even as a "Novelty Item".
A successfully reproduced broadcast can be passed off as original to unsuspecting enthusiants as noted in this thread. This is why ECS should be held ultimately responsible for creating illegitimate copies of blue-chip automotive documentation.
Both of you guys are at fault for different reasons. If these were never produced, Tony wouldn't have it in the first place. Just like counterfit money only a thief will try to pass it off as real. But the counterfitter is always culpable
Well - well - well
What an interesting thread. A pissing contest mixed in with a debate over who has the prettiest baby.
Might as well jump in, since i'm the newbie to all this and restoring my Superbird along the way (plus I been in the car business for 30 years so my perspective might be a bit different). Here goes...
A) The guy with the money gets the right to decide what he's buying. He's also got the responsibility to be educated about fakes and forgeries and all that stuff (or am I the only one who has cable TV and watches the auction/picker/restoration/storage/treasure stuff?) Caveat Emptor applies.
B) The seller has a moral obligation (but not legal) to disclose what he knows about the history. Generally, the only legal things required are the title and the mileage, and after that "IF it ain't in writing - it don't count" . See Point A and "Caveat Emptor" It's also why we have attorney's to sort these things out, instead of doing it on a message board.
C) Money and morality don't mix. Where money is involved you're naive to be a moralist, and arrogant to think being a moralist makes you superior to the guy who isn't. On the other hand, if you are a moralist - you've probably got more friends and less money, which might be the better of the deal.
D) Everyone else is entitled to an opinion, but its worth absolutely nothing - however, it makes for entertaining reading and probably can be used to start a few fist fights.
F) Everyone thinks their opinion is right. See point "D"
G) Some think ONLY an original car should be viewed by OTHERS as most valuable i.e. "I still have the original air in the tires and I captured the first exhaust into a sealed jar when it was first started. NYAH NYAH NYAH my dog's better than yours"
H) Some think that ONLY a restoration using ORIGINAL parts (but NOT original parts from a donor car) is OK. And ONLY certain parts can be replaced, and "ONLY on a Sunday when there is a full moon at noon."
I) Anyone that makes reproduction parts is mildly a crook, anyone who makes reporduction paper is definitely a crook. Unless you lost the paper for your car or someone stole it from you or maybe when you restored it 30 years ago no one really cared about that paper and its only the hobby industry that has now made it something of value, and if you would just like to have a reproduction made because it would be cool - then they ARE NOT a crook, but a valuable resource - unless you didn't need it on your car, so that makes the reproducer a crook and the guy who wants it reproduced a crook also. (There. Did I get it straight?)
J) It's OK to restore a painting that has been crusted with dirt and grim, and its more valuable restored, but if the person can't afford the restoration they think the painting is more valuable un-restored. These points have nothing to do with anything unless someone owns a painting AND a wing car. Then the ONLY restoration that is considered OK is one based on the same money YOU have to spend on YOUR restoration. See point "D" on opinoins and fist fights.
K) Girls with fake boobs, dyed hair, false eyelashes, and capped teeth usually get more attention than those who don't. That being said, the guy who is married to the supermodel's "ugly" sister thinks he married the "pretty one". Beauty is in the eye of the owner.
L) Even if you have original paperwork, its meaningless unless you have an independent third party qualified appraiser provide insurable provenance. OR its why you buy title insurance on your house. Unfortunately, no one sells title insurance or provides provenance on hobby cars, so at best you can get an expert opinion that might be valued by the buyer - but I can guarantee you NO ONE is sueing Galen Govier for ever being "wrong", because all he's providing is his expert OPINION and not a GUARANTEE.
M) If you disagree with anything I said, see Point "F" and "D" above.
N) Have a nice day! ;)
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 15, 2013, 11:37:38 PM
I think any reproduction broadcast sheet is a fake broadcast sheet. Period. End of story.
Something this significant to our hobby should never be available to anyone. Not even as a "Novelty Item".
A successfully reproduced broadcast can be passed off as "original" to unsuspecting enthusiants as noted in this thread. This is why ECS should be held ultimately responsible for creatingeating "illegitimate" copies of blue-chip automotive documentation.
Both of you guys are at fault for different reasons. If these were never produced, Tony wouldn't have it in the first place. Just like counterfit money only a thief will try to pass it off as real. But the counterfitter is always culpable.
Can you not understand plain english? I am licensed by Chrysler to make items that people like you are not allowed to make. A "counterfeiter" is not authorized to legally manufacture whatever they are counterfeiting. Why do you think they are called a "counterfeiter"?! Do you blame a Car Manufacturer because they manufacture cars that are cloned or re-vin stamped by the crooks? Please use that same logic to explain how it is Chevrolets fault when a chop shop takes an AVALANCHE and converts it (illegally) into an ESCALADE. Please tell me you are not so ignorant to fault the people who do things legitimately and blame THEM when the shysters find a way to screw someone over!?
I make new VIN labels for the Collision Industry. I am exclusively licensed by the major manufactures to provide this service to more than 55,000 Collision Shops across the Country. At least 10 times a year we are faced with firms who find ways around the system and fraud the items we manufacture. Would you like me to close our doors because a few crooks will AWAYS find ways to scam the Industry? The Industry who Governs against these illegitimate practices doesn't hold us responsible! You have to either be a Friend or relative of the real "crook" here. There is no way you can be naive enough to really believe your twisted rationale.
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 12:07:42 AM
Can you not understand plain english? I am licensed by Chrysler to make items that people like you are not allowed to make. A "counterfeiter" is not authorized to legally manufacture whatever they are counterfeiting. Why do you think they are called a "counterfeiter"?! Do you blame a Car Manufacturer because they manufacture cars that are cloned or re-vin stamped by the crooks? Please use that same logic to explain how it is Chevrolets fault when a chop shop takes an AVALANCHE and converts it (illegally) into an ESCALADE. Plead tell me you are not so ignorant to fault the people who do things legitimately and blame THEM when the shysters find a way to screw someone over!?
I make new VIN labels for the Collision Industry. I am exclusively licensed by the major manufactures to provide this service to more than 55,000 Collision Shops across the Country. At least 10 times a year we are faced with firms who find ways around the system and fraud the items we manufacture. Would you like me to close our doors because a few crooks will AWAYS find ways to scam the Industry? The Industry who Governs against these illegitimate practices doesn't hold us responsible! You have to either be a Friend or relative of the real "crook" here. There is no way you can be naive enough to really believe your twisted rationale.
Something this significant to our hobby should never be available to anyone. Not even as licensed product
Door Vin decals are something completely different. When it comes to paper documents , you already admit to creating a "dream example" of the paper document that you alledge to be fake!
You recreated an "original looking" the broadcast sheet that looks like it was made during the assembly process of Tony's Daytona.
Tony say's its real....
Dave Walden say's its a "real fake"... created from using other broadcast sheets.
So don't hand me you "holier than thou bullshit". Please. I'm also not
so naive to believe your twisted rationale about the insurance industry on and on. You knew EXACTLY what you were doing for Tony. You created the fake sheet for him which he later claimed to be original. You became a pissed off girl scout, called him out, and now the fun and games begin.
Please don't weave me into your web. You and Tony should be laying in bed together.
I do NOT support banning something for what someone might do with it. It's a false argument currently used to push banning guns. As long as it is NOT violating any DMV title type law......it is within anyone's rights to print them.
Personally, I would prefer that they were never reproduced. But I do not think lack of availability alone would solve the problem of a car presented as something it is not.
Maybe the opposite is the best way......if a BS was easy to get......people would not trust one so much.
Dave - chill!
It's pretty juvenile to be in a pissing contest on a message board.
We get it. Chrysler says its OK! No one has to agree with you! Even though I am sure plenty do - but it ain't a popularity contest!
If your business has been damaged, libeled or slandered - get an attorney! If you want to spend every hour defending yourself on a message board - get a life!
Anyone that starts out by saying "I think" - pretty much looses all credibility thereafter. All it means is IF their broadcast sheet gets eaten by the dog - THEY AIN'T CALLING YOU FOR A NEW ONE! It's just an OPINION! Get over it! It's a freakin' hobby - it ain't counterfeit currency!
(I sound like I am talking to my 13 year old daughter, here)
If someone is that caught up in whether the car is real, rebuilt, restored, recreated, reimagined, reheated, reconstituted, or rehydrated - they'll either spend the money or NOT to their own satisfaction when they want to buy one.
There's many a time a fool and his money were parted - but it didn't stop the fool from grinning like an idiot and being happier than a pig in slop! Far be it for me to rain on his parade.
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 16, 2013, 12:20:34 AM
Something this significant to our hobby should never be available to anyone. Not even as licensed product
Door Vin decals are something completely different. When it come sto paper documents , you even admit to creating a "dream example" of the paper document that you alledge to be fake!
You recreated an "original looking" the broadcast sheet that looks like it was made during the assembly process of Tony's Daytona.
Tont say's its real.
You say its a "real fake"... created from using other broadcast sheets.
So don't hand me you "holier than thou bullshit". Please. I'm also not naive to believe your twisted rationale about the insurance industry on and on. You knew EXACTLY what you were doing for Tony. You created the fake sheet for him, and then he clamed it as original. You got pissed, called him out, and now the fun and game started.
Please don't weave me into your web. You and Tony should be laying in bed together.
Tufcat - I bet that picture of you is a fake. You probably aren't really that fat and hairy.
Quote from: rainbow4jd on March 16, 2013, 12:43:59 AM
Tufcat - I bet that picture of you is a fake. You probably aren't really that fat and hairy.
Thanks but you're blowing my cover. I'm a very handsome tabby with poised refexes and athletic figure, but have been known to cuddle on occasion :icon_smile_wink:
By the way...I agree! :nixon:
Quote from: rainbow4jd on March 16, 2013, 12:40:37 AM
Dave - chill!
It's pretty juvenile to be in a pissing contest on a message board.
We get it. Chrysler says its OK! No one has to agree with you! Even though I am sure plenty do - but it ain't a popularity contest!
If your business has been damaged, libeled or slandered - get an attorney! If you want to spend every hour defending yourself on a message board - get a life!
Anyone that starts out by saying "I think" - pretty much looses all credibility thereafter. All it means is IF their broadcast sheet gets eaten by the dog - THEY AIN'T CALLING YOU FOR A NEW ONE! It's just an OPINION! Get over it! It's a freakin' hobby - it ain't counterfeit currency!
(I sound like I am talking to my 13 year old daughter, here)
If someone is that caught up in whether the car is real, rebuilt, restored, recreated, reimagined, reheated, reconstituted, or rehydrated - they'll either spend the money or NOT to their own satisfaction when they want to buy one.
There's many a time a fool and his money were parted - but it didn't stop the fool from grinning like an idiot and being happier than a pig in slop! Far be it for me to rain on his parade.
Quote from: dyslexic teddybear on March 16, 2013, 12:28:56 AM
I do NOT support banning something for what someone might do with it. It's a false argument currently used to push banning guns. As long as it is NOT violating any DMV title type law......it is within anyone's rights to print them.
Personally, I would prefer that they were never reproduced. But I do not think lack of availability alone would solve the problem of a car presented as something it is not.
Maybe the opposite is the best way......if a BS was easy to get......people would not trust one so much.
The hobby has made them "important" - which in and of itself makes it a matter of personal opinion and not one based on any semblance of facts or even truth. The only time a document has any importance is when it takes on a legal connotation as a matter of a contract or regulatory requirement.
If I rely on the documentation (besides the legal title) in deciding how much to pay you for a car - I better spell it out in a contract that we both sign. Even then, I don't have any damages until I attempt to resell the car. Then, I have to show HOW I was actually damaged - not speculatively damaged.
Fortunately, opinions that are not backed up by cash (on either side of this issue) aren't worth the paper or pixels they are written on. There just good excuses to be contrary.
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 16, 2013, 12:20:34 AM
When it come sto paper documents
A build sheet is not a document. Is was a piece of paper that was nothing but trash once it served its purpose. We don't make these for ANYONE any more. You are all beating a dead horse. I can't explain why these guys chose to lie to the Hobby, lie to the Industry, lie to the Magazines and lie to the Judges. Our company is in compliance with the contractual obligations for the products we offer and have no culpability for what people choose to do with our products once they leave our premises. If you don't approve of our products, don't contact us. You don't want to be part of this "web" then don't be!
People Like Mike and Tony will continue to buy & use our products (through a third party) while criticizing and slamming ECS. They can't stand me but they will use my products any chance they get. I handle things completely different than those who possess characteristics similar to that of a prostitute. If I was dying of thirst in the dessert and one of them walked up and offered me water, I would die before I accepted (or used) anything from them. For those who think I'm bothered about any of this, I find it an absolute riot. Don't worry about how I spend my time. Those who say "get a life" certainly find the time to read this garbage and even respond to it. Hypocrisy seems to manifest itself that way. Like I said, if you don't like what ECS does, don't call us or use anything we manufacture. One thing is for sure, you ALL know the real story about the white car! :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 01:03:55 AM
A build sheet is not a document. Is was a piece of paper that was nothing but trash once it served its purpose. We don't make these for ANYONE any more.
Seriously?? Then why the hell did you spend the time and money to reproduce it for extremely rare vehicles?
Since its no longer considered a document, rare vehicles no longer need this to prove authenticity. :D
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 16, 2013, 01:07:17 AM
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 01:03:55 AM
A build sheet is not a document.
Seriously?? Then why the hell did you spend the time and money to reproduce it for extremely rare vehicles?
You know Tuffy, you make it fun to respond to your posts when you go back and change them :lol: ;)
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 16, 2013, 01:07:17 AM
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 01:03:55 AM
A build sheet is not a document. Is was a piece of paper that was nothing but trash once it served its purpose. We don't make these for ANYONE any more. You are all beating a dead horse. I can't explain why these guys chose to lie to the Hobby, lie to the Industry, lie to the Magazines and lie to the Judges.
Seriously?? Then why the hell did you spend the time and money to reproduce it for extremely rare vehicles?
Because I can......
the only way to document a 1968 is THE BUILD SHEET......
Dave I agree and understand what you say - the title is a "document" and the ONLY document that has any legal bearing. Everything else is just a matter of a hobbyist's opinion. They have applied perceived value to an otherwise innocuous document; so in your mind the issue is "theirs" not yours. And I agree. To each his own.
That being said, I have never done business with you - this is my first exposure to the fact that you might have stuff I eventually could need for my bird. But you scare me. I don't really expect a business owner to be in a message board war - its rather juvenile and I'm trying to say that in the most inoffensive way and as a professional business consultant to the automotive industry (its what I do for a living).
I think you do your business a disservice by getting in the pissing contest over this. If someone takes something you did and mis-represents it - its on them, not on you. Unless their action is financially hurting your business, let it lay. If it does hurt your business - sue them.
If you had hired me to handle this... here is what I would have instructed you to say (and then told you to be quiet about it)....
"Based on the information provided by the owner of a vehicle, we provide reproduction documents of a specialty nature to the automotive hobbyist . As with all matters relating to buying and selling of restored or collectable automobiles, a prospective buyer should rely on their own due diligence in determining which vehicle characteristics, features, and documents, are meaningful to them in determining a transactional value on the vehicle in question."
And if ever challenged on the reasons for operating such business by someone with a different opinion.
"We recognize the wide diversity of the automotive enthusiast community and strive to provide a valuable service for those seeking quality reproduction documents. As with all matters relating to buying and selling of restored or collectable automobiles, a prospective buyer should rely on their own due diligence in determining which vehicle characteristics, features, and documents, are meaningful to them in determining a transactional value on the vehicle in question."
Don't bite the hand that feeds you - I just gave you some really good advice. Be a professional, let others play around in the gutter.
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 01:11:32 AM
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 16, 2013, 01:07:17 AM
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 01:03:55 AM
A build sheet is not a document. Is was a piece of paper that was nothing but trash once it served its purpose. We don't make these for ANYONE any more. You are all beating a dead horse. I can't explain why these guys chose to lie to the Hobby, lie to the Industry, lie to the Magazines and lie to the Judges.
Seriously?? Then why the hell did you spend the time and money to reproduce it for extremely rare vehicles?
Because I can......
:bow:
We all should know what opinions are worth...... :Twocents:
As for a BS......a real one is not an opinion, but is of a "blueprint" of how the car was built.
A fake one.....would be the opinion. What someone wants others to believe how the car was built.
Some of us, only want to use a BS as a historical tool to restore our cars.
Without the legal jargon.
Quote from: dyslexic teddybear on March 16, 2013, 01:46:47 AM
We all should know what opinions are worth...... :Twocents:
As for a BS......a real one is not an opinion, but is of a "blueprint" of how the car was built.
A fake one.....would be the opinion. What someone wants others to believe how the car was built.
Some of us, only want to use a BS as a historical tool to restore our cars.
Without the legal jargon.
I used blueprints to build my house. I've also had architect look at a house and build plans from what he looked at. In both cases, the plans show the floorplan of the house. So for me its not an issue either way. I just generally resent those who try to tell me HOW I should go about enjoying my hobby. It's like the toy collectors who keep their toys in the original packages versus those who pitch the packages and actually play or display them. It just depends on which side of the hobby you are on.
We agree totally on this part......I absolutely resent anyone telling me how to enjoy my hobby too. Or for that matter, how to build my house.
I enjoy the historical aspect of how these cars were designed and built. Their racing heritage, etc.
Some.....want drivers.
Some....want trailer queens.
Some.....do restorations for the love of the cars.
Some.....do it as an investment.
There's no right or wrong reason.....the more doing it for whatever reason....benefits all of us.
As for toys.....I like to play with mine. Even if it is a PIA to clean the melted rubber out of the wheel wells.
Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips! :2thumbs: Although, it is a bitch to get off of the red paint, not so much with our black el camino!
What I am suggesting would allow people to have the best of both worlds. ECS would be able to freely make reproduction buildsheets for display/novelty use only but a public list of the repros should be available to keep the unscrupulous folks in check and prevent possible fraud down the line.
This all came about because fraud may have already happened with one of his sheets! He made a display sheet for one of my customers car who had misplaced his original. 2 new owners later, the car is on ebay with a picture of the repro sheet!
A list disclosing the repro sheets he's already made would most certainly help negate any thoughts of trying to "fake" anything!!
This is a positive thing, we just need to get ECS on board. This would be for the good of the hobby and help defend the value a true original sheet adds to a vehicle.
Quote from: resq302 on March 16, 2013, 08:00:56 AM
Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips! :2thumbs: Although, it is a bitch to get off of the red paint, not so much with our black el camino!
Additional undercoating....... :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
Quote from: resq302 on March 16, 2013, 08:00:56 AM
Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips!
Master B......is your "undercoating" comment a subliminal criticism about the work we did on the Valiant? JUST KIDDING! Can you believe the twists and turns this thread has taken? One thing is for sure! I've been schooled about proper etiquette on the internet Forums. :lol: For instance, if anyone agrees with you they MUST be on your payroll. (Brian.....you're Fired!) :rofl: If you are a "business owner" it's juvenile to post in a discussion but if you are a "professional business consultant to the automotive industry" providing similar commentary is considered a virtue! Those who doctor and falsify "DOCUMENTS" are the ones qualified to suggest a deterrence for the actions that they themselves practice. WOW! I guess Business should remain Business and the Forums an alternative to reality TV. All in good fun of course....... :icon_smile_wink:
Dave, (or should I say Mr. Trump!)
IF in fact I am fired, how come I never received a W-2 statement? Am I entitled to severance pay? If so, when should I expect that? My guess is it would be the same as every other pay check..... never. :smilielol:
And yes, it was a subliminal comment because, lets face it, that undercoating you put on there was totally wrong. It wasn't on the back side of the frame rails or in the area where the trans / driveshaft hump was. For all the knowledge you have, you'd think you'd have at least gotten THAT right! I mean, look at all the cars you do professionally!
Oops, maybe I should remain quiet as I am in the beginning stages of starting a business. :o I don't want any "bad press" to come back and bite me in the arse! :rofl:
Quote from: resq302 on March 16, 2013, 01:04:46 PM
Dave, (or should I say Mr. Trump!)
IF in fact I am fired, how come I never received a W-2 statement? Am I entitled to severance pay? If so, when should I expect that? My guess is it would be the same as every other pay check..... never. :smilielol:
...
Man, I'm putting all the dots together now.......... :smilielol:
Date coded mufflers, date coded glass, ultra correct stickers, even Vin labels are completely different than the "holy grail broadcast sheet".
The broadcast sheet is "paper documentation" that has been unilaterally considered a premier part of a vehicles original history and value . In my view "fixing paper" is just like restamping a block.
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 16, 2013, 01:50:09 PM
Date coded mufflers, date coded glass, ultra correct stickers, even Vin labels are completely different than the "holy grail broadcast sheet".
The broadcast sheet is "paper documentation" that has been unilaterally considered a premier part of a vehicles original history and value . In my view "fixing paper" is just like restamping a block.
That may be your opinion but in the real World,
VIN Labels ARE Federally Mandated items that we're established in 1966 by the SAE under Sub-chapter 49; section 567. A Broadcast Sheet might be the "holy grail" in the Hobby World but is not a legal document that possess ANY Federal Registration qualities whatsoever. They are left over paper "trash", hidden in the vehicle by Employees that were too lazy to properly discard them in their work station trash bin. If their part of the assembly process allowed them to hide them in the vehicle, they simply stashed them away. Their trash bin didn't have to be emptied as frequently.
Broadcast Sheets mean absolutely NOTHING with respect to a registered/Federal/legal "Document". Please reference ANY Governing Body such as the DMV, DOT, NHTSA or SAE, that consider a Broadcast Sheet as a registered document. You may not appreciate these Facts but there are even entities that are allowed to legally re-stamp Engine Blocks under the proper circumstances. Don't refer to those APPROVED venues as "crooks" simply because you don't agree with their their legal jurisdiction! :2thumbs:
Legally correct, yes.
Ethically correct?
....would be the question. :scratchchin:
I say Tufcats right. JMO.....
Curious.....can you explain how restamping a block is "approved" and under what circumstances?
Quote from: dyslexic teddybear on March 16, 2013, 02:49:18 PM
Legally correct, yes.
Ethically correct?
....would be the question. :scratchchin:
I say Tufcats right. JMO.....
Then we are all in agreement! Anyone who takes a perfectly legal situation and knowingly turns it into an un-ethical ordeal is devious. :2thumbs:
Quote from: dyslexic teddybear on March 16, 2013, 02:49:18 PM
Curious.....can you explain how restamping a block is "approved" and under what circumstances?
A vehicle manufacturer can re-stamp their Engine blocks under certain warranty situations and/or conditions. In the early 70's Pontiac required that their service replacement blocks (placed in service) be stamped with the vehicle sequence number.
Interesting.....surprised anyone bothered to.
Thanks.
Quote from: dyslexic teddybear on March 16, 2013, 03:12:59 PM
Interesting.....surprised anyone bothered to.
Thanks.
Here is additional information pertaining to the subject matter. It concerns VIN Registration Law as it pertains to those who can and cannot work within the mandates. (Pay special attention to sub-section #5 regarding who is EXEMPT from the mandates as they pertain to the law. Also notice that a "Broadcast Sheet" is never referenced/considered as a legal document.) I used this jurisdiction link because Michigan is arguable the center of the Automotive World. Most States have codes similar to this one.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hubuuomg32ujcc45pou4qkfe))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-750-415.pdf
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 12:49:28 PM
Quote from: resq302 on March 16, 2013, 08:00:56 AM
Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips!
Master B......is your "undercoating" comment a subliminal criticism about the work we did on the Valiant? JUST KIDDING! Can you believe the twists and turns this thread has taken? One thing is for sure! I've been schooled about proper etiquette on the internet Forums. :lol: For instance, if anyone agrees with you they MUST be on your payroll. (Brian.....you're Fired!) :rofl: If you are a "business owner" it's juvenile to post in a discussion but if you are a "professional business consultant to the automotive industry" providing similar commentary is considered a virtue! Those who doctor and falsify "DOCUMENTS" are the ones qualified to suggest a deterrence for the actions that they themselves practice. WOW! I guess Business should remain Business and the Forums an alternative to reality TV. All in good fun of course....... :icon_smile_wink:
I don't have a dog in this fight, so there's no reason for me to be silent. None of you would hire me, so I'm just pointing out my opinion that this is a "whiney girl" thread of she said, she said.
There's far too much opinion and self-righteousness for it to have any value other than entertainment. (And it is marginally entertaining)
PLOT:
Side A: Holier than thou hobbyists try to define what should be done to retain the purity of the hobby as seen through their eyes.
Side B: Callous businessman says "F U -- it ain't illegal, and this ain't Church, so get off my case."
The two sides call each other names for 9 pages and occasionally a few others chime in.
Doesn't that about cover it?
Nah. :lol:
Quote from: rainbow4jd on March 16, 2013, 10:34:45 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight, so there's no reason for me to be silent. None of you would hire me, so I'm just pointing out my opinion that this is a "whiney girl" thread of she said, she said.
There's far too much opinion and self-righteousness for it to have any value other than entertainment. (And it is marginally entertaining)
PLOT:
Side A: Holier than thou hobbyists try to define what should be done to retain the purity of the hobby as seen through their eyes.
Side B: Callous businessman says "F U -- it ain't illegal, and this ain't Church, so get off my case."
The two sides call each other names for 9 pages and occasionally a few others chime in.
Doesn't that about cover it?
Yes Rainbow. You've covered it completely. Well, maybe we have room for one more quote.... :D
"this was a credible business man in our hobby who is now viewed as a self rightous-cry baby-bully- with no rerspect-to our hobby-and future business-close your shop now-you're peers are wondering if you lost it-probably end up written about in a magazine-had lots of great potential- but ruined it-argumentative business owner-who could go out of business-somebody else takes over- tries to rebuild the business-I hope they're successful- you have great products- end of story"
"this was a credible business man in our hobby who is now viewed as a self rightous-cry baby-bully- with no rerspect-to our hobby-and future business-close your shop now-you're peers are wondering if you lost it-probably end up written about in a magazine-had lots of great potential- but ruined it-argumentative business owner-who could go out of business-somebody else takes over- tries to rebuild the business-I hope they're successful- you have great products- end of story"
Close but not completely accurate. The "hobby" part of the business is a VERY small part of what we do. If it is gone tomorrow......big deal! Like one guy said earlier....it's not a popularity contest. I don't prostitute who I am, what I think or how I feel based on who will buy something from us. You don't like me....don't patron our business. You want the best products available for your cars.....we manufacture them and provide service second to none.
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 11:02:56 PM
"this was a credible business man in our hobby who is now viewed as a self rightous-cry baby-bully- with no rerspect-to our hobby-and future business-close your shop now-you're peers are wondering if you lost it-probably end up written about in a magazine-had lots of great potential- but ruined it-argumentative business owner-who could go out of business-somebody else takes over- tries to rebuild the business-I hope they're successful- you have great products- end of story"
Close but not completely accurate. The "hobby" part of the business is a VERY small part of what we do. If it is gone tomorrow......big deal! Like one guy said earlier....it's not a popularity contest. I don't prostitute who I am, what I think or how I feel based on who will buy something from us. You don't like me....don't patron our business. You want the best products available for your cars.....we manufacture them and provide service second to none.
:popcrn:
no...here's the real synopsis...
jealous baby gets pissed that another car beats his OE scores and comes too close to his record. He's the best so how could this be possible. baby drags car builder through the mud with the judges, other hobbiests etc. baby demands proof and pictures from the car builder so that he can critique them and justify to himself that he's still #1 and the judges have scammed him. Car builder won't play ball. Baby puts him on th s*it list and spends the next year trashing him,the car and the OE judging program on the internet. Car builder happens to be restoring a car for another of the baby's sworn enemys so the madness continues when that car makes its debut. Now he can fight two battles with one keyboard. Car builder who's done nothing wrong comes online from time to time to defend his name, his business and debunk the massive and colossal lies the baby has puked all over the internet. end of story.
Another genius synopsis coming from THE pathological liar of the Industry. Of course I'm "jealous" of you Mike! I have the highest scoring car in the History of the OE Program and I am "jealous" of your LOSING entries that followed. That makes perfect sense! If I recall, I even told you that I would help you any way I could to beat my record. (Sorry you just didn't have the ability. I tried to help you!) Or could the real scenario be that you and your pathological lying crony have no way around trying to justify the lies both of you have perpetually told? Would you care to elaborate on the manner in which you "repaired" the fender tag shown below? According to your magazine commentary, ALL the components on this restoration was original. So this MUST mean that you had to have repaired the fender tag.....right? Please tell us how you did it Mr. Honest restoration professional?
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/01.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/02.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/03.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/04.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/05.jpg)
LOL
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 04:31:56 PM
LOL
Translated: BUSTED AGAIN!
If your "jealousy" theory is true then I guess Gene Lewis should be worried that I will be attacking him....right? You realize that HIS Daytona now holds the second highest score in the history of the OE Nationals. Just like I did with you, I told Gene & Paul that I would do ANYTHING I could to help them beat our OE score. Unlike you however, neither one came out after the event with lies about my products or assistance. I NEVER cared about having the highest OE score. My projects were nothing more than a springboard to engineer & develop new products for the Restoration Industry. You know....the products that you have been buying for years trying to make your restorations better! Which brings me back to the question Mr. Honest Restoration Shop Owner. Why did you say this white car had no rust and how did you repair the Fender Tag?
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/01.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/02.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/03.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/04.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/05.jpg)
Considering you are quoting magazine articles and not my actual words, why is the question being directed towards me?
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only, which were repaired with a clean floor section removed from another charger. This has been stated over and over again.
The fender tag was repaired with a tig welder, JB Weld, Re-inforced fiberglass filler and fill primer. Now you know.
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Considering you are quoting magazine articles and not my actual words, why is the question being directed towards me?
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only, which were repaired with a clean floor section removed from another charger. This has been stated over and over again.
The fender tag was repaired with a tig welder, JB Weld, Re-inforced fiberglass filler and fill primer. Now you know.
I guess that area where the battery tray would have been must be a flash or something since it looks like daylight coming through. Specifically the area just above and to the right of the power steering fluid cap. Also, looks like the trans hump has some nice holes in it too. Is that considered part of the floor pan?
Also, if the fender tag was made to look new, how many hours were put into sanding around the letters and numbers as get all of the pitting hidden? How also did you build back up there letter just to the left of the "11" under the screw hole? Im sure it would have been a lot easier just getting a repro tag made up.
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
The fender tag was repaired with a tig welder, JB Weld, Re-inforced fiberglass filler and fill primer. Now you know.
You pathological liars just keep the garbage going! You expect ANY person in their right mind to believe your lie? You had a fake one made and just like the Build Sheet you continue to lie and deflect. ANYONE who took the time to do a "repair" of that nature would ABSOLUTELY document the ordeal with pictures throughout the entire process. Especially a "professional body shop".....right? Why not post just ONE picture with ANY step you did during your repair process. Better yet, post a side by side of the rusted relic next to what is currently on the car. I can't believe even you are dumb enough to expect anyone to believe your cock & bull story about repairing that rusted tag.
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/05.jpg)
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Considering you are quoting magazine articles and not my actual words, why is the question being directed towards me?
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only, which were repaired with a clean floor section removed from another charger. This has been stated over and over again.
So where did the magazine article get their information about what YOUR shop did to the car? Did the tooth fairy provide the answers to their questions? And where has it been stated "over and over" that the floors were replaced with ones from a "clean floor" section? Could you please point out where that has been conveyed? Now here is the question you might really want to think about before tomorrow rolls around. Are you
absolutely sure that the rear floor pans were the
"ONLY" other place that had been rusted through or would you like to re-evaluate that comment before you are further exposed for the liar you are?
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/01.jpg)
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Considering you are quoting magazine articles and not my actual words, why is the question being directed towards me?
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only, which were repaired with a clean floor section removed from another charger. This has been stated over and over again.
The fender tag was repaired with a tig welder, JB Weld, Re-inforced fiberglass filler and fill primer. Now you know.
What??? :scope:
If someone is saying they "restored" that fender tag - that's OK by me.
I just think they are a NUT!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pdpLAn8mh4
I don't even want someone like that looking at my car in consideration of purchasing it. First, he's living in a dream world and second he's trying to make his dream world MY reality!
It ain't happening! Give me a nice deep pocket buyer at Barrett Jackson who will immediately cut the damn thing in half and turn it into a coffee table! That's the kind of nut I can handle!
Here's the lesson of the day: Don't argue with crazy people, it'll only drive you crazy, too!
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 17, 2013, 10:57:27 PM
What??? :scope:
This fender tag had a tig welder used to repair it Troy! Everyone knows how thin and flimsy the tags are even when new and in pristine shape. Can you imagine what the heat from a tig welder would do to metal that was as rotted as this thing was? It would destroy any remaining area that was exposed to such a severe heat source. (As much as 6,100 degrees fahrenheit - see link below.) But just for arguments sake, lets say that this liar actually did tig weld the tag. What would be used to machine or sand the welded areas perfectly smooth on the front AND back side? What about the rolled raised lip that runs along the top and bottom horizontal edges? How long would it take to sand out every little pit that had almost eaten completely through the metal and not affect the correct shape of surrounding letters? I hope you guys are starting to see the pattern taking place here. One lie after another and NOW a story so far fetched that even Grimm couldn't write a Fairy Tale to rival his newest claim. Is there ANYONE who understands the physics of severely rusted metal that believes this fender tag was restored to (undetectably) look new again?
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/AnthonyHo.shtml
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/05.jpg)
My buddy, who bumps elbows with Galen finished a restoration on a '70 Charger R/T SE that had a warranty block in it. By dropping the drivetrain ala K frame it was kinda neat seeing the block was still bare & what parts were painted orange. The dealership performing the warranty work never repainted anything, just did the bare, minimum work.
Anyhoots, Tom said Galen told him that the dealerships were to stamp the VIN on the new warranty motors. :shruggy:
I wonder how often we've seen this nowadays & hollered foul on the seller?
Quote from: 472 R/T SE on March 18, 2013, 02:30:12 AM
My buddy, who bumps elbows with Galen finished a restoration on a '70 Charger R/T SE that had a warranty block in it. By dropping the drivetrain ala K frame it was kinda neat seeing the block was still bare & what parts were painted orange. The dealership performing the warranty work never repainted anything, just did the bare, minimum work.
Anyhoots, Tom said Galen told him that the dealerships were to stamp the VIN on the new warranty motors. :shruggy:
I wonder how often we've seen this nowadays & hollered foul on the seller?
One of my best friends has a '70 Superbee. The block that's in it isn't stamped and it is a warranty block. Teddy has the original warranty blue tag that was attached to one of the fender tag screws. I can't remember that exact jargon, but paraphrasing it, it states something to the effect of "This tag is for a warranty block" and it has either the VIN or sequence number stamped on it.....
Quote from: ECS on March 17, 2013, 11:57:45 PM
...
This fender tag had a tig welder used to repair it Troy! Everyone knows how thin and flimsy the tags are even when new and in pristine shape. Can you imagine what the heat from a tig welder would do to metal that was as rotted as this thing was?...
I can imagine...
(http://blogs.agu.org/martianchronicles/files/2008/08/dsc00102-closeup-of-edge-of-pahoehoe-flow.jpg?)
Dave,
I wouldn't expect a talentless prick to understand how I was able to restore the tag..there were multiple steps involved and it was very time consuming......Like I said in another thread. The thought of a shop like mine having to justify its restoration efforts to the likes of you in laughable at best.
The rear floor sections were the only panels requiring replacement. Which was done with good used originals. After the car was media blasted, several small isolated areas that were pinholed were repaired.
You try to protest the "truth" but yet you don't post ALL the pics you have that show how solid the car actually was. You only post the pics of the rusted area to suit your skewed agenda.
I am sorry to all the members of this forum that have been put through this nausiating garbage. Anyone that has one ounce of common sense can see what Dave is here to do. Hasn't anyone noticed that he has no interest in wing cars? He is only here to start trouble, pound his chest or promote his products??!!
Feel free to continue with you're charade of bullsh*t. You have taken up too much of my valuable time already this weekend. I'll go back to turning out OE Gold winning restorations one after the next and you can go back to making stickers.....lol..
Holy shit I thought you were being a smart ass about fixing the tag...you were being serious??
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 18, 2013, 07:38:22 AM
... Hasn't anyone noticed that he has no interest in wing cars? He is only here to start trouble, pound his chest or promote his products??!!
Feel free to continue with you're charade of bullsh*t. You have taken up too much of my valuable time already this weekend. I'll go back to turning out OE Gold winning restorations one after the next and you can go back to making stickers.....lol..
Oh man !!! Dave, so you were lying to me when you told me I have a nice Daytona? :icon_smile_big:
Lordy, everyone has their nitch. Stickers? I don't know you 706pkvert, but talk about being demeaning.... Stickers? That is about the most belittling statement I've heard thus far. Dave, and his "stickers", have probably had more of an impact and utility to the Mopar hobby than all the OE Gold Restorations combined......
Quote from: pettybird on March 18, 2013, 07:46:09 AM
Holy shit I thought you were being a smart ass about fixing the tag...you were being serious??
In the spirit of "lists", I'd like to see pictures of the restoration process for that fender tag.. It'll be a learning experience for sure............
Pettybird,
I highly doubt he was being serious with fixing the fender tag. The time taken to restore,reshape,restamp, re.....whatever, would be more in labor rate than what the actual restoration would potentially cost. As I mentioned earlier, where he failed to reply to me, how would one go about restoring a letter that is completely rotted away and missing? One would need to have a reversed stamping die for that letter which is something that is VERY uncommon. There is only two applications (that I am aware of) for stamping reversed letters/numbers and one involves a VIN Tag (which reproducing them is illegal!) and the other would be for the fender tag.
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 18, 2013, 08:08:59 AM
Quote from: pettybird on March 18, 2013, 07:46:09 AM
Holy shit I thought you were being a smart ass about fixing the tag...you were being serious??
In the spirit of "lists", I'd like to see pictures of the restoration process for that fender tag.. It'll be a learning experience for sure............
Troy,
I would too! Especially interested how the fiberglass reinforced stuff held up to the bend where all Hamtramck cars had the fender tag bent upwards so paint could get under / behind it. Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't fiberglass crack and break with that sharp of a bend?
Quote from: resq302 on March 18, 2013, 08:12:09 AM
Pettybird,
I highly doubt he was being serious with fixing the fender tag. The time taken to restore,reshape,restamp, re.....whatever, would be more in labor rate than what the actual restoration would potentially cost. As I mentioned earlier, where he failed to reply to me, how would one go about restoring a letter that is completely rotted away and missing? One would need to have a reversed stamping die for that letter which is something that is VERY uncommon. There is only two applications (that I am aware of) for stamping reversed letters/numbers and one involves a VIN Tag (which reproducing them is illegal!) and the other would be for the fender tag.
:yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: It never happened NO way as you said it would cost more then the whole resto and still look like a POS
Quote from: moparstuart on March 18, 2013, 08:58:05 AM
:yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod: It never happened NO way as you said it would cost more then the whole resto and still look like a POS
Guys.....what do you expect from a pathological lair? He can't even get his facts straight as it relates to the hierarchy of who has won what. I have entered 3 cars in the OE event. Each car received Gold, each car set a new record and each car won Best of Show. The resume for his 3 cars consists of a Silver, a Gold & Best of Show and then he went BACKWARDS the following year in points total and no Best of Show with the white Daytona! Boy....I'm really jealous! Ask him all of the parts/advice he has solicited from me over the years and what I have ever asked of him? Nothing!
The mentally challenged dork claims that I didn't post "all" of the pictures of the Daytona to facilitate MY agenda. It was me that posted the additional pictures that HE & TONY left out which actually DID provide "ALL" of the pictures. They tried to hide "ALL" of the pictures. They were only posting the photos they felt would facilitate their lies about the car being "rust free". I guess that EVERY publication just happened to coincidently print the same "rust free" lie! Whose agenda was actually being manipulated?
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 18, 2013, 07:38:22 AM
I wouldn't expect a talentless prick to understand how I was able to restore the tag..there were multiple steps involved and it was very time consuming......Like I said in another thread.
The first time he mentioned that he restored the tag I laughed, but this makes it sound like he's not kidding. Say it ain't so, Mike!
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 18, 2013, 07:38:22 AM
I wouldn't expect a talentless prick to understand how I was able to restore the tag..there were multiple steps involved and it was very time consuming......Like I said in another thread.
Well lets see some pictures documenting those steps Mr. Talent. A "professional shop" such as yours, DEFINITELY would have documented even a small portion of such a consuming undertaking......right?
(My condolences about your work going backwards with the white Daytona and having to rely on lies from your crooked editor to make up the difference.)
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 18, 2013, 07:38:22 AM
Dave,
I wouldn't expect a talentless prick to understand how I was able to restore the tag..there were multiple steps involved and it was very time consuming......Like I said in another thread. The thought of a shop like mine having to justify its restoration efforts to the likes of you in laughable at best.
I guess a bunch of us fall into the "talentless pricks" then since more than one of us find it difficult to restore something that which is so far gone!
Quote from: resq302 on March 18, 2013, 09:14:54 AM
I guess a bunch of us fall into the "talentless pricks" then since more than one of us find it difficult to restore something that which is so far gone!
Neither did he Brian!
Quote from: resq302 on March 18, 2013, 09:14:54 AM
"talentless prick"
Keep in mind you don't really know who you are replying to Brian. The second word in your quote is a staple phrase used by a good friend of tony's. If these morons were anymore transparent & obvious than who they really are, you could refer to them as
Casper the Ghost.
70 6pkvert, your losing more credability every time you open your mouth
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only.....
So did you show up at the Nationals with the holes still in the doors Mike? Did they not need to be repair as your commentary would suggest? Since you didn't have any rust to "focus your attention on" did the Judges just overlook the hole shown below? Or are the doors ALSO not considered part of the "Body" of a vehicle? Pretty soon Mike, you'll have completely changed the definition for what the Hobby considers a Car!
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/01.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-18/01.jpg)
Cmon Dave. Since you have "no interest in wing cars" :smilielol: you would know that hole is a very specific rust hole designed by Chrysler to reduce air pressure inside the cabin to make the Daytona more aerodynamic. The same goes for the turn signal fluid which was eliminated on Daytonas and Superbirds. :rofl:
Quote from: arrow on March 18, 2013, 11:14:36 AM
70 6pkvert, your losing more credability every time you open your mouth
shame this emoticon smiley didnt post.
http://s752.photobucket.com/user/mqnina/media/emoticons/Emoticon_digging-1.gif.html?sort=3&o=19
Quote from: resq302 on March 18, 2013, 12:03:11 PM
Cmon Dave. Since you have "no interest in wing cars" :smilielol: you would know that hole is a very specific rust hole designed by Chrysler to reduce air pressure inside the cabin to make the Daytona more aerodynamic. The same goes for the turn signal fluid which was eliminated on Daytonas and Superbirds. :rofl:
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only.....
Just to make sure I understood the quote, did he or did he not state that the "ONLY" rust was on the floor pans? Of course their original position was that rust was "virtually non- existent" on the vehicle. Kind of reminds me of his other magazine quote where he used "NADA" to describe the reproduction parts used in his last project. I presume that "NADA" in Spanish translates to "MANY" in English!
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/01.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-18/01.jpg)
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 18, 2013, 07:38:22 AM
The rear floor sections were the only panels requiring replacement. Which was done with good used originals. After the car was media blasted, several small isolated areas that were pinholed were repaired.
Could you repeat that again Ste.....uh.....I mean Mike! I was having some trouble understanding your definition of "pinholed".
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-18/01.jpg)
Quote from: ECS on March 18, 2013, 12:41:40 PM
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 18, 2013, 07:38:22 AM
The rear floor sections were the only panels requiring replacement. Which was done with good used originals. After the car was media blasted, several small isolated areas that were pinholed were repaired.
Could you repeat that again Ste.....uh.....I mean Mike! I was having some trouble understanding your definition of "pinholed".
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-18/01.jpg)
It absolutely baffles me as to why someone would go to these great lengths to lie, deceive, twist, and fabricate stories about a vehicle? :shruggy: :rotz: :pity: Why not just post the truth?
Quote from: resq302 on March 18, 2013, 03:03:21 PM
Quote from: ECS on March 18, 2013, 12:41:40 PM
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 18, 2013, 07:38:22 AM
The rear floor sections were the only panels requiring replacement. Which was done with good used originals. After the car was media blasted, several small isolated areas that were pinholed were repaired.
Could you repeat that again Ste.....uh.....I mean Mike! I was having some trouble understanding your definition of "pinholed".
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-18/01.jpg)
It absolutely baffles me as to why someone would go to these great lengths to lie, deceive, twist, and fabricate stories about a vehicle? :shruggy: :rotz: :pity: Why not just post the truth?
MY thoughts exactly. After reading all of this discussion I cant quite grasp the importance either. I have a couple cars that have had rust repair, and I have an original 6 pack bird thats never even been touched or painted. They are all just as important to me. But I dont need to embelish their importance to have people think more highly of me. Thats what this Daytona story is sounding like to me. To each his own, maybe im just more modest ... :cheers:
It absolutely baffles me as to why someone would go to these great lengths to lie, deceive, twist, and fabricate stories about a vehicle? :shruggy: :rotz: :pity: Why not just post the truth?
[/quote]
MY thoughts exactly. After reading all of this discussion I cant quite grasp the importance either. I have a couple cars that have had rust repair, and I have an original 6 pack bird thats never even been touched or painted. They are all just as important to me. But I dont need to embelish their importance to have people think more highly of me. Thats what this Daytona story is sounding like to me. To each his own, maybe im just more modest ... :cheers:
[/quote]
It falls into the human category of what I have/possess is special, some folks whether consciously, or sub-consciously want to promote themselves and/or their possessions as unique, with themselves being the sole proprietor of such, we're all guilty of it to some extent, however, in this case, IMHO...being that this car was going to be an OEM Gold candidate, the individuals involved probably didn't want areas of repair/replacement scrutinized, had they been made public before the vehicle was judged.... :Twocents:
And on a "comical" note regarding the Tig welded/fiberglassed/JB Weld repro of the fender tag....how many points were deducted for that "non-original" component :D....and lastly, Web/forum etiquette regarding such Biblical claims of fender tag restoration never seen before in the annuals of Moparkind... pics, or it NEVER happened :icon_smile_blackeye:
Mike
Quote from: DAY CLONA on March 18, 2013, 04:06:51 PM
....the individuals involved probably didn't want areas of repair/replacement scrutinized, had they been made public before the vehicle was judged.... :Twocents:
And on a "comical" note regarding the Tig welded/fiberglassed/JB Weld repro of the fender tag....how many points were deducted for that "non-original" component :D....and lastly, Web/forum etiquette regarding such Biblical claims of fender tag restoration never seen before in the annuals of Moparkind... pics, or it NEVER happened :icon_smile_blackeye:
Mike
You are closer to the truth than you could ever imagine Mike. These guys have been kind to my face for years while cutting me down behind my back. They have called the Magazines that covered my cars (for the past nine years) to gossip, lie and do anything possible to tear me down. Tony and his "secret" crony despise me for apparently making their restorations "obsolete". They blamed my "new found" methods and efforts as the reason they ended up wasting so much time & money for having their cars restored "wrong". This is a moronic way of deflecting responsibility but it apparently has made them extremely upset. They either had to accept a second rate restoration or tear it apart to have it restored again. This was admitted to me by one of the characters involved, in front of both Dave Stuart and Tom Barcroft, over dinner during one of their visits.
They DESPERATELY wanted to beat the OE record of the Valiant and the only way they thought they could do it was to offer up a vehicle that was in a similar starting condition of my car. The problem was, they knew there was NO WAY that their rusted out Daytona could trump an all original bodied vehicle in an OE competition. So they lied and tried to make it look as if their vehicle started out just as nice/original as the Valiant, prior to it being restored! They even enlisted their crooked, crony editor to help them with the scam. They never expected that Gene's Daytona would be the standout/Best of Show car at the 2012 Nationals and that must have REALLY threw a wrench in their spokes. Those who claimed to be my Friends ending up nothing more than backbiting, two faced lairs. By the resounding responses that many of you have sent to me via private email (copying their lies) you too know them for what they really are. It's a pitiful situation but ALL true!
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 16, 2013, 08:08:14 AM
What I am suggesting would allow people to have the best of both worlds. ECS would be able to freely make reproduction buildsheets for display/novelty use only but a public list of the repros should be available to keep the unscrupulous folks in check and prevent possible fraud down the line.
This all came about because fraud may have already happened with one of his sheets! He made a display sheet for one of my customers car who had misplaced his original. 2 new owners later, the car is on ebay with a picture of the repro sheet!
A list disclosing the repro sheets he's already made would most certainly help negate any thoughts of trying to "fake" anything!!
This is a positive thing, we just need to get ECS on board. This would be for the good of the hobby and help defend the value a true original sheet adds to a vehicle.
You can't really be serious here can you? :o I usually try to stay out of disputes like this but this particular post caught my eye. Why does someone need a display/reproduction build sheet? You either have your original or you don't. If the mice ate it or it dissolved away it's gone. Deal with it. I personally do not have sheets for all of my cars. That's the way it is and I accept it. If you don't have your original how do you know what to put on your repop sheet for codes. Do we just make em up??? Great we'll have cars everywhere with made up codes on fake sheets. And we'll have a debate like this going on every other week. Oh wait we will have a list somewhere that will tell me if it's a fake or not. If I'm in the click and know about the list and who has it. Is that build sheet the one on the list or no guess what I remembered where I put my original years ago. What did you think was going to happen to the Challenger's display build sheet? Is the current seller of the Challenger on Ebay at fault? Does he even know it's a fake or did the previous owner? Whose story turned the fake sheet into the original? Whose stands to lose money here? Not you I bet. What's the next evolution of your bright idea here? Restamped blocks and rebodied Hemi cars. Where do we stop this madness? ??? Oh don't worry we will have a list of what's real and what's not. Like I eluded to at the start of my post this has got to be one of the dumbest ideas I've heard in a while. Tell me you aren't serious. This is NOT a positive thing.
Quote from: DAY CLONA on March 18, 2013, 04:06:51 PM
And on a "comical" note regarding the Tig welded/fiberglassed/JB Weld repro of the fender tag....how many points were deducted for that "non-original" component :D....and lastly, Web/forum etiquette regarding such Biblical claims of fender tag restoration never seen before in the annuals of Moparkind... pics, or it NEVER happened :icon_smile_blackeye:
Mike
I would venture to say AT LEAST 50% of the tag itself should be deducted........... If indeed it was restored, it is a feat Picasso would be proud of. :cheers:
I digress.............
Without getting in the middle of this debate, if anything just out of sheer curiosity I'd like to see before and after photos of the fender tag. That is, unless of course there are no existing in process repair photos.
Well, I can see the before pictures, any pictures after? :scratchchin:
:popcrn:
for my own scorecard, i'd like to clarify if this pinhole repair comment referred to just the floorpan, as i suspect it did.
The rear floor sections were the only panels requiring replacement. Which was done with good used originals. After the car was media blasted, several small isolated areas that were pinholed were repaired.
i think he was refering to the body panels, he did say the rear floor pan needed replacement
Maybe he is classifying that rust hole in the lower corner of the inside door frame a pin hole. :lol:
Quote from: ventwing (alias of Tony D'Agostino) on March 19, 2013, 07:59:47 AM
i think he was refering to the body panels, he did say the rear floor pan needed replacement
:wave:
Hi Tony (D'Agostino). Why aren't you using your other account? ::)
could be, but i still think he was adressing the floor itself. the first comment i recall was prior to the door photo, and stated
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only, which were repaired with a clean floor section removed from another charger.
then came this reply, that i quoted above
The rear floor sections were the only panels requiring replacement. Which was done with good used originals. After the car was media blasted, several small isolated areas that were pinholed were repaired.
are you guys implying the door was also replaced?
Tony,
Remember what the magazine articles said..... "there was no rust or rot what so ever". So clearly that must be the original door. :lol: Unless there is something else that hasn't been told to us.
I really wish either the owner or someone who actually had a hand on in the resto could come on here and explain EXACTLY what was done so there is no more controversy. That would probably solve everything. (And I would still love to see how they restored that fender tag) With all the hard work that went into this, Im sure that someone would have had taken some kind of progress or restoration pics throughout the restoration.
Quote from: held1823 on March 19, 2013, 08:37:12 AM
could be, but i still think he was adressing the floor itself. the first comment i recall was prior to the door photo, and stated
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only, which were repaired with a clean floor section removed from another charger.
then came this reply, that i quoted above
The rear floor sections were the only panels requiring replacement. Which was done with good used originals. After the car was media blasted, several small isolated areas that were pinholed were repaired.
are you guys implying the door was also replaced?
I would bet there were pin and rust holes in the trunk floor too once they blasted it , you alway see them back by the latch area . I have had that same problem in several cars and been able to just repair those areas and not replace the whole floor pan .
Welcome to Moparts!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 19, 2013, 09:12:58 AM
Welcome to Moparts!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Something like that.
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only
I don't know why
held1823 is confused about where the "rust" was located. It was CLEARLY pointed out that the rust "ONLY" exhibited holes "THROUGH" the metal on the "FLOORS". Anyone can see that door shown below has a "THROUGH" hole the size of a silver dollar, just behind the weatherstrip. Of course that hole was classified by Stev....uh.....I mean Mike as being nothing more than "pinholed". The last time I heard this type of beating around the bush was when Clinton was asking what the meaning of "IS" really "IS"?! I guess maybe we need to start discussing what the words "RUST", "THROUGH", "FLOORS" and "ONLY" really mean.
........and now the alias' start coming out! I hope everyone remembers this hypocrite accusing me of hiding behind an "alias". Is there anyone that doesn't know that ECS is Dave Walden? Just wanted to make sure. I think by now, most of you know that I have no problem saying what's on my mind, especially when it involves the Facts.
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-27/01.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-18/01.jpg)
How did I miss this thread...... :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn:
Pictures are worth a thousand words. No pictures, it didn't happen.
If there are pictures of the fender tag restoration, then it would be the most interesting restoration work I have ever seen....
I'm willing to be that the restoration work (if actually done) to the fender tag would far surpass any kind of work done on the actual restoration on the white daytona! The sheer amount of time, energy, and resources that would be put into a project like this would be the likeness of someone restoring a picasso with the fabric tattered and worn away.
Quote from: ECS on March 19, 2013, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only
I don't know why held1823 is confused about where the "rust" was located.
reread it, dave. my question asking for clarity was not about door rust. the door had not entered the discussion when the quoted comments were first posted. i believe he was addressing the photos of the rusty floor, and stating that only the rear floor pans were replaced, and that the remaining floor areas were repaired. the bandwagon crowd is the one expounding his comment to cover the entire body. perhaps it did; that's why i asked for clarity. much like when allegations were made about the nose being removed from this car when it was new. whatever became of the "smoking gun" proof for that?
i seriously am amused by this thread. the car is what it is, regardless of who has connections to it. anyone claiming to not be impressed by it is either lying, or not a wing car fan. the restoration background does seem to be a lost opportunity for showcasing one's restoration talent, which is bizarre to say the least. and for what cause? a gold award from a show that alledgedly uses "expert" judges who don't even know the correct color for power steering fluid?
i seriously am amused by this thread. the car is what it is, regardless of who has connections to it. anyone claiming to not be impressed by it is either lying, or not a wing car fan.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I'd have to fess up, I am a wingcar fan obviously, but I'm not overly impressed by this Daytona,...it's just another 69 Tona'...it has a nice color combo, that's about it, had it been a TX9, then it would be "impressive" :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: held1823 on March 19, 2013, 10:36:31 AM
Quote from: ECS on March 19, 2013, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: 706pkvert on March 17, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Tony's Daytona had rust through on the rear floor pans only
I don't know why held1823 is confused about where the "rust" was located.
reread it, dave. my question asking for clarity was not about door rust. the door had not entered the discussion when the quoted comments were first posted. i believe he was addressing the photos of the rusty floor, and stating that only the rear floor pans were replaced, and that the remaining floor areas were repaired. the bandwagon crowd is the one expounding his comment to cover the entire body. perhaps it did; that's why i asked for clarity. much like when allegations were made about the nose being removed from this car when it was new. whatever became of the "smoking gun" proof for that?
i seriously am amused by this thread. the car is what it is, regardless of who has connections to it. anyone claiming to not be impressed by it is either lying, or not a wing car fan. the restoration background does seem to be a lost opportunity for showcasing one's restoration talent, which is bizarre to say the least. and for what cause? a gold award from a show that alledgedly uses "expert" judges who don't even know the correct color for power steering fluid?
Personally I love the White RED RED color combo , now that everyone knocked the value down on it i can pick it up cheap . :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I would love to own it
Stuart,
I would love to own ANY daytona. Even if it is a clone. I don't care. I just want one of those fantastic looking cars that are a piece of racing history!
Quote from: moparstuart on March 19, 2013, 12:04:31 PM
Personally I love the White RED RED color combo , now that everyone knocked the value down on it i can pick it up cheap . :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I would love to own it
I agree Stuart! as to the value comment I'm not sure that anything said in any of the at least three threads here at DC.com will affect the value of the car.
It is a legit daytona that got OE Gold! Even if people have tried poking at it from the alleged missing nose and wing to amount of rust and parts used.
I'm still just trying to figure out who is pissing on who here for the last few months here and why, it seems like some people have too much time on their hands!
Ill think Ill build one like that someday,minus the red interior. Maybe Ill even throw in a Hemi and a four gear.
yes, but will you say that it never had any rust and other questionable stuff? :lol:
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on March 19, 2013, 01:14:21 PM
Ill think Ill build one like that someday,minus the red interior. Maybe Ill even throw in a Hemi and a four gear.
Put the RED interior in it :nana: :nana: :nana: :nana: :nana:
I'm fonda this one
Quote from: moparstuart on March 19, 2013, 01:19:41 PM
I'm fonda this one
Are you now?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iPxE77caeHY/UG1sKOfK8lI/AAAAAAAAy1s/6VR9yuRLm5g/s1600/PETER%2BFONDA3.jpg)
Quote from: resq302 on March 19, 2013, 01:16:16 PM
yes, but will you say that it never had any rust and other questionable stuff? :lol:
Nope. Im proud of my work. It was a total rust bucket when I got it. lots of non oe parts were used too!
Or more like this?
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_le6tm5THTq1qanwe4o1_400.jpg)
(http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/06/jane-fonda-barbarella-img.jpg)
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on March 19, 2013, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: resq302 on March 19, 2013, 01:16:16 PM
yes, but will you say that it never had any rust and other questionable stuff? :lol:
Nope. Im proud of my work. It was a total rust bucket when I got it. lots of non oe parts were used too!
:eek: :pullinghair: :faint: :leaving:
Quote from: resq302 on March 19, 2013, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: 1HotDaytona on March 19, 2013, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: resq302 on March 19, 2013, 01:16:16 PM
yes, but will you say that it never had any rust and other questionable stuff? :lol:
Nope. Im proud of my work. It was a total rust bucket when I got it. lots of non oe parts were used too!
:eek: :pullinghair: :faint: :leaving:
Funny thing is that I got stuff from Dave(ECS) Tony and Mike Mancini to build the car.
ECS Carpet is the best availible. and Mike and /or his crew did a great job on the gauges and radio.
Quote from: 70Sbird on March 19, 2013, 12:18:52 PM
I'm still just trying to figure out who is pissing on who here for the last few months here and why, it seems like some people have too much time on their hands!
No one is "pissing" on anyone here! I just figured that some people needed to experience first hand what they themselves have done to other people for many YEARS. The only difference is that they lied about the people they targeted while their saga is being exposed with the truth.
You might be right about your "time" observation. I am currently sitting on a balcony over looking the Gulf of Mexico and don't know if I should take a walk on the Beach now or after the Sun sets. :shruggy:
Quote from: ECS on March 19, 2013, 05:57:40 PM
You might be right about your "time" observation. I am currently sitting on a balcony over looking the Gulf of Mexico and don't know if I should take a walk on the Beach now or after the Sun sets. :shruggy:
Perfect! I think it would be an excellent night for a bonfire. :smilielol:
boy is that an old pic! Talk about bringing something up from the dead! :lol:
Quote from: Aero426 on March 19, 2013, 06:20:52 PM
Quote from: ECS on March 19, 2013, 05:57:40 PM
You might be right about your "time" observation. I am currently sitting on a balcony over looking the Gulf of Mexico and don't know if I should take a walk on the Beach now or after the Sun sets. :shruggy:
Perfect! I think it would be an excellent night for a bonfire. :smilielol:
:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: oopps i crapped on my self
Quote from: resq302 on March 19, 2013, 07:02:09 PM
boy is that an old pic! Talk about bringing something up from the dead! :lol:
Heck Brian.....all this over silly ol' Build Sheets. Rather than burn them, I might just give them away to anyone for the asking. How about a round of Build Sheets for everyone! :smilielol:
With those three rolls, there really is enough to everybody's car & still have plenty left over. How many are you anticipating on doing? :shruggy:
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 19, 2013, 07:27:18 PM
With those three rolls, there really is enough to everybody's car & still have plenty left over. How many are you anticipating on doing? :shruggy:
Lets ask Mike?! It appears that he is now the "Governor" of these items. :lol:
I could use one for my '69. What are the codes for a 440 6-pack with A/C and a Keisler/GM trans?? :scratchchin: :rofl: :D
Quote from: bill440rt on March 19, 2013, 07:54:42 PM
I could use one for my '69. What are the codes for a 440 6-pack with A/C and a Keisler/GM trans?? :scratchchin: :rofl: :D
yeah how is a superbird convertible coded :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: resq302 on March 19, 2013, 07:02:09 PM
boy is that an old pic! Talk about bringing something up from the dead! :lol:
Yes, it is a few years old. But since it was tee'd up for me... :rofl:
Just for the sake of discussion, I did heard Dave say (it was just the other day, I swear to God, people) that he doesn't make build sheets for people any more, and it is all "old news". But I did not hear him specifically say that he will never make build sheets again. "Never" can be a hard word to say. How about a You Tube video of the ECS blank build sheet burn party? Or perhaps his inventory of blanks can be donated to help the less fortunate with their toiletry needs.
Quote from: Aero426 on March 19, 2013, 08:33:23 PM
r the sake of discussion, I did heard Dave say (it was just the other day, I swear to God, people) that he doesn't make build sheets for people any more, and it is all "old news". But I did not hear him specifically say that he will never make build sheets again. "Never" can be a hard word to say.
I stand by everything I say to the nth degree. One thing I have learned from the posts of many people on this forum is that you can parse words or find ways around the actual meaning of what's "really" intended. As a matter of fact, some here bought into and even supported the devious play on words when you knew EXACTLY what was taking place. That being said, I have quite a few really good employees who have mastered the manufacturing of our products. They could take over the process and I would vow to "NEVER" make another one again. What do you think? Who is going to come out and support my manipulation of words? :shruggy: :2thumbs: :lol:
Quote from: ECS on March 19, 2013, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on March 19, 2013, 08:33:23 PM
r the sake of discussion, I did heard Dave say (it was just the other day, I swear to God, people) that he doesn't make build sheets for people any more, and it is all "old news". But I did not hear him specifically say that he will never make build sheets again. "Never" can be a hard word to say.
I stand by everything I say to the nth degree. One thing I have learned from the posts of many people on this forum is that you can parse words or find ways around the actual meaning of what's "really" intended. As a matter of fact, some here bought into and even supported the devious play on words when you knew EXACTLY what was taking place. That being said, I have quite a few really good employees who have mastered the manufacturing of our products. They could take over the process and I would vow to "NEVER" make another one again. What do you think? Who is going to come out and support my manipulation of words? :shruggy: :2thumbs: :lol:
This is a serious question. When you say you "stand by everything", does that mean that you and your employees are not going to produce build sheets in the future under any circumstance?
Quote from: Aero426 on March 19, 2013, 09:14:46 PM
This is a serious question. When you say you "stand by everything", does that mean that you and your employees are not going to produce build sheets in the future under any circumstance?
I can't un-ring the bell. They have already been produced. You even posted a picture of them. Is this a trick question? :scratchchin:
Quote from: ECS on March 19, 2013, 09:44:57 PM
I can't un-ring the bell. They have already been produced. You even posted a picture of them. Is this a trick question? :scratchchin:
Not a trick question. I think what you are saying is that since the blanks have been produced, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Correct?
Quote from: Aero426 on March 19, 2013, 09:53:35 PM
Quote from: ECS on March 19, 2013, 09:44:57 PM
I can't un-ring the bell. They have already been produced. You even posted a picture of them. Is this a trick question? :scratchchin:
Not a trick question. I think what you are saying is that since the blanks have been produced, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Correct?
Correct! I'm not even sure which room they are being stored at in our new Facility. I wouldn't guarantee that if a Friend wanted one, I wouldn't give one to them. These were never a product offered to the public. Of the few that received them, I either GAVE them away or just covered the cost of my Employees who helped in making them! I have said before that the "classic" part of my business it is probably the least contributing concerning dollars & cents. My wife even asked me to close that part of the business to re-direct our attention to the other lines that have recently taken off. We invested a small fortune in Chrysler exhaust components so I was a bit shocked that she even suggested that. Personally, the Classic Industry is my PASSION and I am fully committed to provide the best products, at the best price and with the best service. I strive for absolute perfection & authenticity with everything we do! If it isn't correct, it doesn't leave our building. I don't ever see ECS not manufacturing products for the old car markets.
To the contrary, I am moving full steam ahead with Factory correct Trunk Mats, expanding the applications for every decal we offer and Exhaust Systems for the GM Industry. As I have said before, I am just a regular guy that has been fortunate enough to serve the people of this Hobby. You may not like the way I respond sometimes but I guarantee I will NEVER lie to or mislead you and will ALWAYS do the best I can to promote the Hobby....not hurt it. I serve the people in this Industry, not the other way around.
Dave,
At least with your stuff, we know we buy it once and its correct. :2thumbs: I've had to basicly pay twice and learn the hard way that not all repro stuff is correct fitting or appearing. Thank you for being one of the people who take the time to make sure the thing is right the first time!
Brian
Quote from: resq302 on March 20, 2013, 06:32:48 AM
Dave,
At least with your stuff, we know we buy it once and its correct.
That's what our "talentless" group of people have to offer when you receive items from at ECS. :lol: You had also mentioned our 4 door project in an earlier post. Below are some photos that show the flat metal components (shaped on an English Wheel) to form new C Pillars, that transitioned the roof section to the reshaped Quarters. They had to be fabricated from scratch because there never were "original" C Pillars manufactured for what we are doing. Also shown are the converted quarter panels that were cut and shaped for the 4 Door Cuda Project. We may have no talent but we do try to be progressive with our efforts.
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-05/03.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-05/01.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-05/02.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-05/04.jpg)
hey i'm as progressive as the next guy , but a 4dr Cuda :rotz: :rotz: :rotz: :puke: :puke: :puke:
not feeling it ,thats the answer to a question that no one should have asked . :Twocents:
You mean you actually do more than stickers?
Dave - An off-topic question about your upcoming line of repro exhaust components... what is the the current estimated date of availability of the B-Body components? In the post on Moparts a year ago, Tom indicated they were expected fairly soon:
QuoteSeriously, the dates we will initially be offering are 2049 - July 1969 manufacturing date and 1960 - July 1970 manufacturing date. Those will cover all 1970 and 1971 model years. The resonators will be available from ECS in the next week or two. The complete sets and related components should be ready sometime in June or early July. The B Body models are next on the list and hopefully be ready by Summer's end or Fall. Since we own the machinery for manufacturing the pipes, we can probably have just about any style of Head Pipe or H-Pipe correctly reproduced. We also will have either aluminized or natural metal pipes available for the exhaust systems.
My loooong restoration project for my 1969 Charger 500 is nearing completion, and I would like to use ECS exhaust components on it...
Allen
Quote from: Mytur Binsdirti on March 20, 2013, 11:10:04 AM
You mean you actually do more than stickers?
Maybe just a few things! :rofl: Here are some of the new "stickers" we had made along with other "stickers" that we manufacture for some of the larger distributors that many of you purchase your parts from. The shipping for these "stickers" vary due to size and weight but we do not add an up-charge to our shipping cost. The B Body Exhausts Mufflers are ready and we have already sold out of our first run! We will have another 5 pallets delivered within the next two weeks so we won't run out of them so quickly. We are calling people back (in the "first come; first serve" order they called) to let them know when we will have them.
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/02-Feb/02-21/03.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/02-Feb/02-21/04.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-03/02.JPG)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/01-jan/01-08/04.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/01-jan/01-08/02.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/01-jan/01-08/01.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/01-jan/01-08/03.jpg)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-20/13.JPG)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-20/14.JPG)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-20/15.JPG)
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-20/16.JPG)
I have a few E-Body resonators and have seen the B-Body mufflers.....Nice work DW :2thumbs:
Quote from: ECS on March 20, 2013, 11:43:44 AM
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-20/13.JPG)
Man, there's a lot of clutter on that table........ :icon_smile_big:
Probably half, if not more than half of that stuff is already on our cars and I never knew it was made by ECS. :2thumbs: I should have known something was up when it fit right! :lol:
Quote from: maxwellwedge on March 20, 2013, 11:45:09 AM
I have a few E-Body resonators and have seen the B-Body mufflers.....Nice work DW :2thumbs:
Thank you very much!! :2thumbs: Also notice that we manufacture the springs that wrap around Drum Brake wheels. When we were on speaking terms, I tried to tell/teach Mike Mancini not leave a SINGLE rust pit or ANY sign of damage on a vehicle's components during a restoration. It's obvious he didn't listen. If Tony would like to have the rust damaged springs replaced on his Daytona wheels, I will send him a set free of charge. We had them reproduced EXACTLY like the originals during my 70 Challenger project. I would also be willing to tell Mike how to inconspicuously remove rust pits from the edges and surface of the Brake Drums. I wonder if any of the OE Judges from the Nationals even noticed those rust pitted springs or brake drums? :scratchchin:
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-20/01.jpg)
Tony's Daytona Wheel
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2012/12-20/15.JPG)
Wheel Spring pictured on table
I'm glad to see this thread made a reverse 180 at full speed :drive: :drive: :2thumbs: How about some more pix of what's on the agenda? :popcrn:
Ill join in on the derailment....
Dave, I wish you would make this bracket ('69 AC-only suction hose bracket)
I had to make my own.... :rotz:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,67069.0.html
Top one I made in the pic...
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=67069.0;attach=120983;image)
Quote from: Just 6T9 CHGR on March 20, 2013, 03:55:03 PM
Ill join in on the derailment....
Dave, I wish you would make this bracket ('69 AC-only suction hose bracket)
I had to make my own.... :rotz:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,67069.0.html
Top one I made in the pic...
(http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=67069.0;attach=120983;image)
I'll check to see if we have an original unit to format from and we'll get it done! Thanks. :2thumbs:
Somebody (not ECS) is selling a blank broadcast sheet on ebay. :nono: :icon_smile_dissapprove:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-BUILD-SHEET-BROADCAST-BLANK-COPY-CUDA-HEMI-GTX-CHARGER-CHALLENGER-CORONET-/160988059111?pt=Motors_Manuals_Literature&hash=item257ba2d5e7&vxp=mtr
ebay description
IT IS A COPY FROM A BLANK 100% FACTORY OEM BUILD SHEET I HAD. IT IS FOR ALL MOPAR FROM CHRYSLER CORPORATION YEAR F SERIES 1970 REVISION 6/69
YOU WILL NOT SEE THE WORD ( COPY ) ON IT I DID PUT IT JUSTY TO LET YOU KNOW AT FIRST WHEN YOU SEE IT, I DID TAKE THE SHEET AND BROUGHT IT TO A COPY SHOP THE QUALITY OF THE COPY IS REALLY GOOD AND CLOSE TO THE FACTORY SHEET
Of course, that build sheet being offered as a 1970 sheet is not going to fool anyone. People have been offering various blank build sheets for years. Even if the form is right, having the equipment and expertise to finish it off is another matter. That one wouldn't worry me.
New Twitter Hashtag: #ThingsDaveWaldenNeverSaid :yesnod:
Quote from: Aero426 on March 20, 2013, 11:39:56 PM
New Twitter Hashtag: #ThingsDaveWaldenSaid :yesnod:
Tony's Daytona is a Beautiful Car! I Love the color combination and Mike did do a very, very nice restoration on the vehicle. :yesnod:
Where is the group hug emoticon? :cheers:
Dave, I am off to the gym in the morning for my cardiac rehab. I am up to a whole 20 lbs on my triceps.
Quote from: Aero426 on March 20, 2013, 11:49:37 PM
Where is the group hug emoticon? :cheers:
I'm putting it here :grouphug:
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 20, 2013, 11:52:56 PM
I'm putting it here :grouphug:
I am crying so much now that I have to go to bed.
Quote from: Aero426 on March 20, 2013, 11:49:37 PM
Dave, I am off to the gym in the morning for my cardiac rehab. I am up to a whole 20 lbs on my triceps.
It doesn't matter what you use as long as you're still moving forward and staying busy. Keep up the great work! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Quote from: ECS on March 21, 2013, 12:49:57 AM
Quote from: Aero426 on March 20, 2013, 11:49:37 PM
Dave, I am off to the gym in the morning for my cardiac rehab. I am up to a whole 20 lbs on my triceps.
It doesn't matter what you use as long as you're still moving forward and staying busy. Keep up the great work! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Thank you. Exercise is a struggle for me as I can always think of more fun things to do. But I feel guilty when I do not go. As John Pinette, the comedian says, "I can give up this gym stuff any time I want". I pretty much have to do it if I want to stick around for a while.
Quote from: Aero426 on March 21, 2013, 08:32:31 AM
... I pretty much have to do it if I want to stick around for a while.
We want you too to stick around... :2thumbs:
Quote from: Aero426 on March 21, 2013, 08:32:31 AM
Exercise is a struggle for me as I can always think of more fun things to do.
I hear ya. My six pack abs have long turned into a keg.
Quote from: hemi68charger on March 21, 2013, 08:56:03 AM
Quote from: Aero426 on March 21, 2013, 08:32:31 AM
... I pretty much have to do it if I want to stick around for a while.
We want you too to stick around... :2thumbs:
Translation - Until we can figure out how to get all that knowledge out of that noggin' of yours... :D"
Just kidding :icon_smile_big:
Where can I get one of these brackets? I looked on your site & didn't find it.
Mine either wasn't in the fuel line kit,...or I ate it somehow.
Quote from: thehemikid on March 21, 2013, 02:28:49 PM
Where can I get one of these brackets? I looked on your site & didn't find it.
Mine either wasn't in the fuel line kit,...or I ate it somehow.
I apologize that none of the parts pictured have made it to our website yet. If you give us a call, we can give you pricing for any of the components that are pictured. (Just reference the part you have called out in the photo.) We do have everything in stock and should have the information listed on the site shortly. Thanks!
After reading this thread - I want to propose some rules.
1. Everyone who agrees with me is right, all others are wrong.
2. If you don't have a complete original build sheet, then your car doesn't exist. Nope, it doesn't exist - and if it does - it's totally fake.
3. Use of any non-OEM parts in your restoration, including sheetmetal, screws, bolts, tire air, headlight fluid, etc. etc. automatically turns your car into a VW Thing, and a clone Thing at that. (Bet your using that old Cadillac 4-6-8 diesel engine in your clone aren't you? We have ways of knowing!)
4. Cars are not worth what people actually pay for them, they are worth what people want to be paid for them.
5. If you weren't conceived in the back seat of a New Yorker, you are not allowed to buy and own a Mopar now. You are not a "true" MOpar collector, you are an alien.
6. Because somebody might do something in the future, no one is allowed to do anything now. It will screw up the whole time-continuum and Doc Brown will never get back to 1988.
7. My car will always be better than your car - no matter what - because I am right. (See point #1)
8. Since I am right you have to do what I want you to do. That's what being right allows me to do. You are in my power - you must comply!
9. Anybody that violates the sacred laws of Mopar Collecting, laws that Moses brought down from the mountain on the third tablet, that accidentally slipped out of his hand, but not before someone saw them and made a copy, and recreates something that I don't want them to..... must die!
10.Since the nature of man is inherently evil, then the only way to prevent a man from doing evil, is to kill him before he commits evil.
If you follow these ten rules, the world will be a better place and the integrity of the hobby will be protected.
BECAUSE I SAID SO! (See rule #1)
Quote from: rainbow4jd on March 21, 2013, 09:25:12 PM
After reading this thread - I want to propose some rules.
1. Everyone who agrees with me is right, all others are wrong.
2. If you don't have a complete original build sheet, then your car doesn't exist. Nope, it doesn't exist - and if it does - it's totally fake.
3. Use of any non-OEM parts in your restoration, including sheetmetal, screws, bolts, tire air, headlight fluid, etc. etc. automatically turns your car into a VW Thing, and a clone Thing at that. (Bet your using that old Cadillac 4-6-8 diesel engine in your clone aren't you? We have ways of knowing!)
4. Cars are not worth what people actually pay for them, they are worth what people want to be paid for them.
5. If you weren't conceived in the back seat of a New Yorker, you are not allowed to buy and own a Mopar now. You are not a "true" MOpar collector, you are an alien.
6. Because somebody might do something in the future, no one is allowed to do anything now. It will screw up the whole time-continuum and Doc Brown will never get back to 1988.
7. My car will always be better than your car - no matter what - because I am right. (See point #1)
8. Since I am right you have to do what I want you to do. That's what being right allows me to do. You are in my power - you must comply!
9. Anybody that violates the sacred laws of Mopar Collecting, laws that Moses brought down from the mountain on the third tablet, that accidentally slipped out of his hand, but not before someone saw them and made a copy, and recreates something that I don't want them to..... must die!
10.Since the nature of man is inherently evil, then the only way to prevent a man from doing evil, is to kill him before he commits evil.
If you follow these ten rules, the world will be a better place and the integrity of the hobby will be protected.
BECAUSE I SAID SO! (See rule #1)
I think I love you man. :bow: :bow: You're one clever mofo! I especially like the "screw up the whole time-continuum and Doc Brown will never get back to 1988", and "if you weren't conceived in the back seat of a New Yorker you are not allowed to own a Mopar now"!
That's some funny chit! :rofl:
Glad you liked it.
Some folks just take themselves FARRRRR too seriously.
Quote from: rainbow4jd on March 21, 2013, 09:25:12 PM
Doc Brown will never get back to 1988.
Not to be a stickler for details but I believe it was 1985 he was trying to get back to. :lol: He needed to hit 88 mph (using 1.21 gigawatts of power) in the DeLorean to start his time travel. Great Movie! :2thumbs:
Well , ive just spent some time reading all the posts in this subject,, I really didnt know which way to lean untill he said how he fixed the tag ,, yikes ..I dont know ecs nor have ever talked to him, i have to take his side on the tag thing , as for the car itself , somebody told the magazine guy the story on the car and thats what they wrote , differs from the pics posted here for sure ..
Amazing car either way , would be proud to own it . I do however agree that without proper b sheet repro shouldnt be made without original to go by , and yes ecs should disclose on there site of sheets they ve made for diff cars , wouldnt be that hard really ..
You guys all own bad ass cars , ecs keep doin what you do , future finds could use your services for sure .
keep kickin ass guys
Quote from: hemikev on March 21, 2013, 11:49:41 PM
I really didnt know which way to lean untill he said how he fixed the tag ,, yikes ..I dont know ecs nor have ever talked to him, i have to take his side on the tag thing , as for the car itself , somebody told the magazine guy the story on the car and thats what they wrote , differs from the pics posted here for sure ..
Thanks for bringing the topic back on track. I say that sincerely. The owner of the white Daytona (Tony D.) has tried to appeal to others on this site by saying that I only disclosed pictures that facilitated "my agenda". To the contrary, I supplied the REST of the pictures and information that he/they tried to hide. Tony claims that I ignored the magazine coverage that actually did tell about his "rust". Only ONE magazine made a very SMALL reference about it. They were the last publication to write about the car. If it wasn't for Frank Badalson emailing Cliff those rusted pictures of the car which I originally forwarded to Frank (PRIOR TO THE ARTICLE BEING WRITTEN), Cliff probably would have
completely hidden the facts about the rust on the vehicle.
Even Cliff couldn't jeopardize his reputation by writing those lies once he realized that another "heavy hitter" in the Industry knew the facts. Guess what Cliff's mention of the "rust" was in his article after receiving those pictures? He said there was,
"some rust on the floor near the rear seat." THAT'S IT! That MINUSCULE mention of "rust" is what Tony is telling people that I have left out of the story to facilitate "my agenda." All of that BODY damage and that is ALL that Cliff had to write about it! It had to have killed his soul to have included THAT little bit about the rust because he wanted so much to tell how this was the "standout" car at the 2012 Nationals! He even went as far as to say it received a perfect score at the MCACN event when the Management of the show CLEARLY stated that wasn't true. I wonder who told Cliff that lie?! (See below.) Had anyone else's vehicle exhibited the damage that the white Daytona did, that "honest" editor would STILL be writing about the horrific rust damage. If you recall, he also wrote how Gene's Daytona technically shouldn't have even been allowed in the OE competition (by Bloomington Gold Standards) and that John's Yellow Daytona Redline tires were incorrect. He didn't mind "critiquing" those guys but tried to cover up the rust facts about Tony's car.
The bottom line here folks, know who your'e dealing with when you have your cars written about. There is a ton of behind the scenes manipulation going on and you are bound to be disappointed when falsehoods are written. Once it's printed, you can't un-ring the bell. Sad but true!!
(http://ecsautomotive.com/other/2013/03-Mar/03-18/02.jpg)
Wow,....that's definitely a...
I haven't posted in a long time but felt there was too much misinformation out there just to let go.
Ecs hadn't showed interest in wing cars on this board until coming on just to campaign negativity. He even posted that because my car had a title that the vin started with XS, that it wasn't a real Daytona, a rookie mistake. When one of the 2 Daytona threads that he posts on doesn't have responses for a period, he or resq302 would post again just to keep it alive and then respond back and forth to one another even though they do talk daily or at least almost daily from what they recently posted that they do. I know when I was on good terms with ecs that he would occasionally ask me to post on his behalf too.
Just count all of the repetitive and redundant posts of the same pictures that ecs has posted, its easy to lose count and odd that would even be permitted. Look at all of the time and effort that he has spent posting pictures and replying with the same stuff over and over again, it makes it hard to hide your motive.
In regards to all of the "truths" posted by ecs
The "truths" that he posts, are his version, half truths, assumptions, all with an obvious agenda
to harm, harass, devalue, lessen, hound and stalk myself, my car, mike mancini, magazine editors, judges and whoever else he may have issue with at the time, which is anyone that challenges his views.
He had his "truth" about my car having been disassembled and sold as a regular charger, with no proof.
He also had his "truth" about all aar and t/a cars having to been driven 500 miles prior to delivery, and had many of his "truths" to back that up, which of course was proven untrue.
He also had his "truth" that he made 2 new build sheet copies for me,
When I showed pictures of them along with 2 old ones, his new "truth" changed to say he had made 4 or more.
Then he showed another new "truth" of how my original wasn't real because of the spacing of some wording on it. He was proved wrong on that as other examples were shown that were the same. He then came up with a new "truth" that the location of the lettering wasn't correct.
Disputing with him is like a dog chasing his tail.
Do you start to see the pattern that when his "truths" are questioned, he comes up with new "truths" to fit his needs and agenda
Funny, Paul Jacobs didn't want to have anything to do with ecs because he went through the ire of ecs a few years ago, but when ecs heard that paul was restoring johns car for last years oe, ecs felt the need to make amends with paul so he would have more on his side when he started to spew his latest hate campaign. Too bad paul fell for it because in a moment, he could be on the bad side of ecs again.
ecs feels he has his reasons, but the vast majority of them fall into his wrongful assumptions.
He accused me of saying negative things to the oe judges about his car/cars, that's untrue, I never met or spoke to any of the oe judges prior to meeting Keith at the 2012 nats.
In reference to his positive cable on the challenger. I first asked ecs about it, my point was that I felt it was a later service cable, ecs told me that he got it from frank mitchell and it was nos, after ecs and I spoke, I was looking at the engine compartment when Rick Ehrenberg asked what I saw and I told him the same thing I had said to ecs. Rick had also asked me if something else that he pointed out may have been incorrect, and I told him no, that it was correct. The other thing that ecs is referring to is my erroneous answer when I was asked about the vc gasket on his valiant. I wrongfully answered that I didn't believe rubber valve cover gaskets were correct, I was wrong and shouldn't have answered as I had never researched a 225 engine. Ecs's cars are great/excellent top restorations.
I also supplied him with some rare parts he needed (as he supplied some of his products to me), and went to bat for him publicly when he had some judging issues. But you don't hear about any of the good stuff.
In nov of 2011 Ecs and I had a 3+ hour conversation, I apologized to him about what I had said about his vc gasket, and we had what I felt was a good and productive conversation. We had kept in regular contact and despite his issue with mike mancini, who he had said his problem wasn't with mike, but with the oe judging and mike was just "collateral damage", we were on what ecs led me to believe were good and friendly terms. Then in June of 2012 he starting posting all of his fabricated stories and the pictures that I had taken. I can only guess that he was leading me on the whole time and just waiting for the time to get closer to the nats when he felt his wrath would do the most harm.
In regards to the mcacn judging.
I wasn't at my car when it was being judged, so it was impossible for me to have been "following the judge around" as was stated prior. I was called when the judge was almost finished to answer a question. The question the judge had was that he felt daytonas shouldn't have organisol paint on the rear body panel. I told him that it should and I asked what did he see on the other daytonas? He said he hadn't gotten to them yet. He suggested that WE look at the other daytonas there, I said ok, but warned him while looking at restored cars wont always give you the correct answer depending on how correctly the car was restored. So WE looked at other cars there and I told him why don't we look at Malcolm's car as that car is unrestored and wouldn't have been subject to a restoration. After looking at the other cars and Malcolm's he agreed that organisol was correct. I don't think any of the other owners would have acted differently. Although I was painted to look like I was following the judge around while my car was judged, another untruth.
In regards to the mcacn score. My score also changed after it was signed off on. And it too was reduced. A 1000 point total was signed off on when the judges left my car.
Afterwards, bill braun, the head judge called for me to talk with him. He told me that because he took so much flak after a car scored 1000 points a few years ago, that he will no longer allow a car to get a 1000 point score and took a point off of my total and had it signed off on.
I never complained about that or made any issue out of it, I just did mention it to bob ashton only after it was brought up in this thread. I told the same story to the mopar action writer and he felt since the car was signed off on 1000 points then had a phantom point removed, that he would go with the 1000 point reference in the story.
In reference to the tires that ecs OFFERED to me. I DID want them when I thought they were polyglas tread, not speedway tread. Once I found out that they weren't the correct tread for a Daytona I was no longer interested. The 1 owner coronet at the nationals with the speedway tread spare is correct for a coronet as they weren't built at Hamtramck where polyglas and firestone 14" redlines were used.
In reference to the rot hole on the original drivers door to my car. That door hasn't been on the car since about 1975. Remember in all of the magazine stories on my car, it mentioned how the car was hit in the drivers door? The door was replaced with another door by the brothers that owned it, and it doesn't/didn't have any rot. The original door was stored in the garage where the car was, and mice had a mouse house in that corner of the door that caused the rot hole. That door wasn't used, the replacement door is still on the car and I still have the original door.
contd
Ecs also mentioned how we were having a celebration of some sorts at the nats but that we were disappointed after the awards or judging. I have no idea what he's referring to, zero. He wasn't even at the nats this year? Makes you wonder who is fueling the fire. I was very pleased that my car was awarded a gold. I also congratulated john and gene on their accomplishments. I said prior to the event, my only hope was that the car would earn oe gold, it did, I'm very happy it did.
Just to make a point of how little I'm concerned with the judging, I left Sunday morning prior to the award ceremony at the mcacn event.
Before the judging sheets from the nats were released, I had mentioned to paul Jacobs that since the oe judging is so vague and very unspecific that I would consider having my car rejudged when he was running the judging since he plans to be more interactive with the owner. He replied to me that my car wouldn't really get a different point score, I said I wasn't concerned with the score as much as what the shortcomings were so if I deemed them important enough, I would correct them. The point of that is how did paul already know what score my car got and what the deductions were for?? I still don't know what the majority of the deductions were for, I'm still wondering about that.
Paul also had told me that him and gene checked out the tire dates on my car. Of course the tire dates are on the back side of the tires, perhaps that's when the pics of the undercarriage and wheels/tires of my car were taken and forwarded to ecs, since ecs wasn't at the nationals to take the pics himself. At one point I told gene that it was fine with me if he took some pics of my car. I found it odd that he placed his camera at the front of the RH valve cover and pointed towards the RF hood pin pocket area and took some pics of that area amongst other areas. I realized why when ecs posted that he felt my car had improper paint coverage in the hood bumper pocket area. So I guess ecs is being sanctioned by gene, which explains why a member is permitted to post here only for the means to start trouble.
In reference to what was posted here about mopar action writing stuff not to their liking, do you think it may have something to do with the magazine being threatened with legal action and that possibly rubbed somebody the wrong way?? John told me that his mcg story wasn't exactly what it was supposed to have been. Anyone that has had their cars in magazines know the story isn't always exact, as some embellishing and sensationalizing for the sake of a better story takes place.
In regards to the mopar action story with the reference to the rot in the rear interior floor pans, it was told to all 3 publications, but they pick and choose what they want to print, mopar actions story was really the first of the 3 magazine stories that was initiated and the mention of the floor rot was in there from the beginning, due to space limitations in the magazine and being that they are a bimonthly publication the story didn't go to print til after the mcacn show, and that's why there was mention of those results in the story.
Have at it, I wont be part of a back and forth
Thank you
Quote from: TONY on March 22, 2013, 10:59:31 AM
I haven't posted in a long time but felt there was too much misinformation out there just to let go.
Why of course Tony! Paul, Gene, John, Brian, etc.... must all be in a conspiracy against you. All of the magazine articles posted here PROVING the opposite of your statements were all fabrications.....right? And the restoration of your fender tag.....another truth? Yes, that was a dandy! As Shakespeare once said, "thou doth protest too much."
Tony,
I just want to make clear a few things here. You have a very nice car with some killer parts, and Mike did a fantastic restoration on it. I'm not interested in fighting with anyone here for anything-life is wayyy to short & we may all look back someday and regret what we have posted.
BUT, please don't assume you know anything about an issue Dave and I had many years ago. Those were resolved, IN PERSON, a long time ago and we walked away as friends. No one really knows too much about them anyway, so it's a moot point to bring them up in this discussion. Dave did offer me tires, but ONLY after several calls to his shop buying other parts for a Daytona. These are the same tires that somehow got brought up in the feature article on YOUR CAR!! Mysteries abound here and I think it's BS!
Fact is, you and I have had issues also, but this is not the place to discuss them in my opinion-we discussed them last month.
I have never, ever, had a personal issue with Mike Mancini. He has done stellar work for me and has always treated me fair. I know he and Dave have some serious issues and I think that's too bad-nothing worse than friends becoming enemies. Maybe someday all can be forgiven and we can move on?
I'm not at odds with you or anyone else here, but I don't like people going behind my back spreading lies/rumors etc, and if my name gets pulled into a thread I'm here to defend myself!
Bottom line is some people have flat out lied about things to put themselves in a higher place, only to have built there lies on the sand.
Quote from: ECS on March 16, 2013, 12:49:28 PM
Quote from: resq302 on March 16, 2013, 08:00:56 AM
Melted rubber is just additional undercoating that prevents rust and chips!
Master B......
Since some of you have taken a liking to my rap name, here's a lil beat to break up the banter.....
(in rapping voice)
yo, yo, yo, yo!
I'm Grand Master B,
I'm here to make ya see,
that I'm all for the hobby,
here's what Im bout to lobby,
no matter what car,
neither here, nor too far,
ill care 'bout your ride,
as long as its bonafide! (TRUE!)
don't care for manipulation,
im here for verification!
cause of my occupation,
theres no deliberation! (boy!)
you better watch out you scammers,
cause we're 'bout to drop the hammer!
Cause all ya gotta be is TRUE!
and thats why Mopars RULE! (WORD!)
written and (badly) sung by Grand master B
aka - Brian - Resq302
Quote from: resq302 on March 22, 2013, 01:55:42 PM
written and (badly) sung by Grand master B
aka - Brian - Resq302
:boogie:
And I thought that the Blankenship/Jeff Johnson saga was interesting over the last couple of years. This definitely beats that one up. I guess I never really knew how cut throat/competitive this hobby was becoming. My goodness..
Quote from: Dr V on March 22, 2013, 04:31:51 PM
And I thought that the Blankenship/Jeff Johnson saga was interesting over the last couple of years. This definitely beats that one up. I guess I never really knew how cut throat/competitive this hobby was becoming. My goodness..
When I read Paul Jacobs' very candid comments above, and who didn't get along with whom, it sounds like the stuff that goes on between junior high school girls. Just about everyone named didn't get along with someone else at a given moment. (I am sure this scenario is not limited to the high stakes of the Mopar restoration world.)
What could take this thread to the next level, would perhaps be the salacious news that there was a wife swap involved somewhere along the line. :drool5:
Quote from: paul jacobs on March 22, 2013, 01:13:23 PM
These are the same tires that somehow got brought up in the feature article on YOUR CAR!! Mysteries abound here and I think it's BS!
We know all those things just magically showed up in the articles Paul! I had been telling Cliff Gromer for the past two years how the OE Judging had some major flaws but he just coincidently decided to bust the Judges in his Editors Notes (When the Gold Doesn't Glitter) AFTER Tony didn't take the top billing at the 2012 Nationals. For what it's worth, I have an email from Cliff explaining to me that Tony has been one of his "go to guys" for YEARS regarding the Feature articles that he writes. It appears that Tony gets to be his own Judge, Jury and Executioner for his cars as well as everyone else's! It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Cliff was bound to reward Tony for all of years of Friendship and dedicated service. Of course he needed to disparage Gene, John and Your efforts in order to frame Tony's car as the "standout Daytona" at this years Nationals. Class nothing but class....
For the record, Paul & I NEVER had issues with each other. The "ordeal" was nothing more than a conversation we had regarding some hearsay & gossip. I'm sure that comes as no surprise!
Quote from: ECS on March 22, 2013, 05:52:33 PM
I have an email from Cliff explaining to me that Tony has been one of his "go to guys" for YEARS regarding the Feature articles that he writes. It appears that Tony gets to be his own Judge, Jury and Executioner for his cars as well as everyone else's! It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Cliff was bound to reward Tony for all of years of Friendship and dedicated service. Of course he needed to disparage Gene, John and Your efforts in order to frame Tony's car as the "standout Daytona" at this years Nationals.
You're talking about some crap a scribbler wrote in a throw away rag. It ain't Automobile Quarterly, if you know what I mean. Sure, it's nice to get your car in a magazine. But six months from now, the only people who will remember the feature and the opinion piece are the proud car owner who paid for the framed copy hanging on his wall and perhaps half a dozen other people. This is not exactly the first car to get puffed up a bit in a monthly. The other OE Gold award Daytona owners may shake their heads in private about some things. But I don't see them on the board here being concerned enough to make an issue of it either. I think all the OE Gold Daytonas have had their favorable moment in the sun, publication wise.
I am new to this site and have been jumping around trying to feel the air.
Spending quite some time reading posts about Tony's daytona I hope has given me the wrong impression.
I am left with feeling blessed that I don't have a broadcast sheet for my 69 500.
My car came to me because I saw something special at a time when few did. But I have never once in visioned
that it would become a show winner. Apparently for many it could be. And for those same- many great lengths may be taken to make it the envy of all 500s. How far is too far? Do we need lawyers? Hit men? Good grief.
I like my car. It is cool. But it is just a cool car.
Quote from: Aero426 on March 22, 2013, 06:22:33 PM
But I don't see them on the board here being concerned enough to make an issue of it either. I think all the OE Gold Daytonas have had their favorable moment in the sun, publication wise.
Then you haven't been paying attention and/or can't read between the lines. I'd bet my last $ that a couple of those Daytona Guys see things in a completely different light.....guaranteed! But then again, who are they to decide what should or shouldn't be considered their "favorable moment in the sun". :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: ECS on March 22, 2013, 07:00:24 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on March 22, 2013, 06:22:33 PM
But I don't see them on the board here being concerned enough to make an issue of it either. I think all the OE Gold Daytonas have had their favorable moment in the sun, publication wise.
Then you haven't been paying attention and/or can't read between the lines. I'd bet my last $ that a couple of those Daytona Guys see things in a completely different light.....guaranteed!
Dave, maybe they do. But does it really matter? This is car judging, not curing cancer.
All four of the cars have received positive press and deservedly so. They are all beautiful restorations. Speaking for most of us little people on the outside, we are probably less concerned over which car might be considered the "bestest" by the opinion of a publication. I don't think it keeps the car owners up at night either. They are quite happy with what they have achieved.
You're right, I can't read between the lines. I could never figure it out that this thread and the Triple Gold thread are the fruits of your personal witch hunt to discredit Tony and Mancini while outing the car along the way. I am sure there are issues going back in time that only you principals know. These threads are the result of those grievances, whatever they are.
You are the person crying foul the loudest, and I have to say, "Thank You" for posting the restoration injustices that have been foisted on the public. (I know, I know, you are only coming here to defend yourself and are not the aggressor. You are only here to help inform us and have no personal agenda.) You must feel you have good reason not to exchange Christmas cards with Tony and Mike. We don't know ALL the details. But at the end of the day, most of us will shrug and say, ok, fine, whatever. I think all of us know that your work in the hobby speaks for itself and needs no affirmation.
But maybe you're right. You can make discrediting the white car your mission until your next client wrongs you, and then move on to them. You have such good people in place at ECS, that you can now devote even more of your time towards chasing down those BAD men who said MEAN things behind your back, and all those sloppy magazine editors too. This hobby needs a good Sheriff to clean things up now that Joe Higgins is gone.
Either way, while it has been great theater, this deal getting old. But it's hard to look away. So what other dirt do 'ya got on the white car? :icon_smile_big:
:popcrn:
:smilielol:
Quote from: Aero426 on March 22, 2013, 08:45:11 PM
You can make discrediting the white car your mission until your next client wrongs you, and then move on to them.
You have no idea what you are talking about. You think THIS is the only thing I could discuss regarding being wronged by a "client"? It's an everyday occurrence by more "big name" people in this Hobby than you could imagine. Tony should be glad I didn't take Mike up on "listing" all the Build sheets I have ever made. Don't think I couldn't add about 20 other things to the mix of this garbage. Tony made one HUGE mistake with me. While spending HOURS and HUNDREDS of dollars making custom metal tags for his Uncle's Race Heritage, he was giving me advice on how to handle the "naysayers" that were constantly attacking me on the forums. I honestly thought he was a "friend". Then I found out it was HIM that was criticizing me under his forum alias, while giving me advice on how to handle the "idiots". How much more demented can you get than that? Now his other good "friend" who was helped by my Wife in advising him to seek medical help before his Cancer killed him, is back at it using Mike's DC account to call me a "talentless prick". (You should change your "signature" word choice if you want to remain secret SJ. Email-Copy-Paste) These guys are psychotic, pathological liars who will smile to your face and then try to rip your guts out if they get the chance. They have ALL screwed with the wrong guy/people this time! :flame:
well stated, doug. while pathetically entertaining, both threads have blatantly, and repeatedly, ran afoul of this little blurb from page one
There's pretty much one set rule around here... no personal attacks
this thread has been used to vilify sworn enemies, accuse show venues of shady judging practices, promote restoration products, and Lord knows what else. there is no need to read between the lines; google can provide multiple examples of exactly what is going on here. the car is nothing more than a flash point for some theatrical axe grinding. the post directly above this one leaves little doubt this is not the case.
all three of the daytonas are beautiful cars, but they would be just as beautiful had they scored half as many points at the nationals. truth be told, it bums me out to see them whored out as perpetual trailer queens, rather than being a car that can be driven to the cruise-in on saturday night. hundreds of hours spent applying paint dabs and hidden overspray may appeal to a select few, but have zero impact on the majority of people who appreciate these machines. date coded tires? who gives a rat's ass? not many people, i'm guessing.
Quote from: held1823 on March 22, 2013, 11:04:51 PM
well stated, doug. while pathetically entertaining, both threads have blatantly, and repeatedly, ran afoul of this little blurb from page one
Please accept my sincere apology! :angel:
So, to sum up:
FOR FUCK'S SAKE ARE WE DONE HERE?
It was time to put the lock on this stupid thread WEEKS ago, and I brought it up 11 days ago. Time for our fearless moderator to step in and shut this shit down.
Where is the thermonuclear thread killing emoticon?
These threads have been given a berth the size of the Queen Mary in terms of what is being allowed for posted content. The not so transparent MO has been, "lets throw a bunch of poo at the wall, and we will see what sticks." Someone mentioned "Welcome to Moparts" the other day. The reality is that these threads would have been locked and gone months ago.
All I know is this.....
I am probably going to piss a ton of people off in the future, because I am doing the BEST RESTORATION IN THE WORLD.
I still have the original air in the tires.
I still have the original light from the headlights.
I still have the original first exhaust fumes from the first time it started, captured and stored in a peanut butter jar by one of the factory workmen. And I have his time cards as well.
It never had rust, because it was never made of iron.
The brakes were never applied, it only came to gravity stops.
My build sheet is pristine white and shows that I have the rare "Twin Engine Option" - one in the front and one in the trunk. Both are Hemis with a four barrel carburetor for EACH cylnder - yes, it has 16 carburetors.
It is painted the rare color FU2, a rare combination of green and panther pink.
My car will score a 1001 (since they don't give 1000 scores) and be featured in every magazine from Women's Wear Daily to Fly Fishing America.
----
How did I do this, you ask?
I have gone back in time, changed the coding on the build sheet, and thereafter, actually transported my car from its factory release to my present day garage.
Sincerely,
Emmett Brown.
Quote from: ECS on March 22, 2013, 10:47:18 PM
Don't think I couldn't add about 20 other things to the mix of this garbage. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Sticks and stones may break my bones...
Dave, you own among the best cars in the world. You've won the big show. You make great products and totally raised the quality bar. You have earned the respect of the industry. So many positive things. If you are concerned about what people say, just LET YOUR WORK DO THE TALKING FOR YOU, because it stands tall. I may not always agree with you on everything, but I say this with respect.
Quote from: pettybird on March 23, 2013, 12:09:48 AM
So, to sum up:
FOR FUCK'S SAKE ARE WE DONE HERE?
It was time to put the lock on this stupid thread WEEKS ago, and I brought it up 11 days ago. Time for our fearless moderator to step in and shut this shit down.
Easy there buddy..... remember, its a family site! :2thumbs:
Quote from: pettybird on March 23, 2013, 12:09:48 AM
So, to sum up:
It was time to put the lock on this stupid thread WEEKS ago, and I brought it up 11 days ago. Time for our fearless moderator to step in and shut this shit down.
A Bug's Life - Don't Look The Light!
"Don't look at the light, Don't look at the light, I can't help it !!!"........ Does this ring a bell?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coGBgkjGQ9g
The easiest form of thread lock................. Don't open it....... :nana:
There's no reason for using the f-word. Control yourself and put down the beer!
is there a family out there that doesn't have an f-bomb dropping relative among it? the word isn't warm and fuzzy, but it's also not uncommon. it certainly got his point across.
i brought up the blurb from page one about the "no personal attacks" rule here, and know for a fact that it has been addressed in the past. i still have the pm from one of the moderators asking me not to call a certain business owner an arrogant prick. in retrospect, my slur looks like child's play....
regardless of who's family has what relative who drops the F-bomb, N-bomb, or whatever profanity, this is still a family site and there is no need for it. After all, we (at least myself) type in what I am trying to convey. I highly doubt that anyone has a "speech to type" option on their computer. If they do, they should have some consideration for others before dropping what ever letter bomb they want. It could have EASILY been changed to FORK instead of the other word. :Twocents:
Quote from: TUFCAT on March 23, 2013, 10:01:40 AM
There's no reason for using the f-word. Control yourself and put down the beer!
X 2
I guess I have to start paying more attention...
Troy