I'm still far from pinning down the exact details on my engine rebuild, but I do have some general, broader questions.
1. Would there be any argument at all for keeping the stock hp exhaust manifolds on a 500ci stroked 440, .30 over, runnng EZs or EZ-1s -- or ditch 'em?
2. Is there an intake/carb combo that will fit under the stock hood on a '69 with EZ-1 (max wedge) heads?
3. What would you do to tranny (it's an auto) with this motor? Beefier clutch?
4. Rear end is totally stock, any concerns here in terms of strength standing up to all the torque?
5. Do you think we're looking at 8mpg or 10mpg (I know we're missing tons of details still)? I am happy with 10mpg, but 8mpg (lawful driving behavior) starts to get a bit much.
Thanks guys -- and yes I've read, and re-read most posts on the board I could find related to this stuff!
Quote from: joflaig on November 14, 2007, 07:50:54 PM
I'm still far from pinning down the exact details on my engine rebuild, but I do have some general, broader questions.
1. Would there be any argument at all for keeping the stock hp exhaust manifolds on a 500ci stroked 440, .30 over, runnng EZs or EZ-1s -- or ditch 'em?
2. Is there an intake/carb combo that will fit under the stock hood on a '69 with EZ-1 (max wedge) heads?
3. What would you do to tranny (it's an auto) with this motor? Beefier clutch?
4. Rear end is totally stock, any concerns here in terms of strength standing up to all the torque?
5. Do you think we're looking at 8mpg or 10mpg (I know we're missing tons of details still)? I am happy with 10mpg, but 8mpg (lawful driving behavior) starts to get a bit much.
Thanks guys -- and yes I've read, and re-read most posts on the board I could find related to this stuff!
Good questions....here's my :Twocents: fwiw
(1) on a stroker build you want it to be able to exhale properly. That means at the very least a 1 7/8in header and in most cases 2in is better.
(2) The ICH dual plane can be opened up to a max wedge intake port....that will clear the stock hood with a drop base air cleaner. I only run Holley style carbs ;)
(3) trans should be done up with a heavy duty rebuild and some type of performance valvebody. Deep pan and tranny cooler along with the appropriate stall for the engine combo.
(4) If it's an 8 3/4 it will last forever as long as the car doesn't hook. Once you throw slicks into the mix all bets are off. You will eventually break it if you're racing. :yesnod:
(5) milage ? :lol: that'll depend on how much you keep your foot out of it, how much gear the car has and tire diameter as well. How well the engine is tuned will make a big difference also.
Ron
Thanks, just the man I was hoping to hear from!
So assume I go with 2" TTIs and EZ-1s, and a ported Indy dual plan intake (how much height would a girdle add?), then two big questions I'm left with are cam and carb. There are just too many options with those for a novice to follow intelligently and make a choice on. I guess, it's the same old story: it will mainly be a cruiser and only see the track a few times a year (and not with slicks). I don't want to have to continuely tune it either. Given all that, I'm trying to find the combo that will make it the most fun to drive on the street and highway, but still see something in the 11s (and a bit lower if had I the right suspension, tires and gearing) at the strip.
Thoughts?
Quote from: joflaig on November 14, 2007, 09:56:02 PM
Thanks, just the man I was hoping to hear from!
So assume I go with 2" TTIs and EZ-1s, and a ported Indy dual plan intake (how much height would a girdle add?), then two big questions I'm left with are cam and carb. There are just too many options with those for a novice to follow intelligently and make a choice on. I guess, it's the same old story: it will mainly be a cruiser and only see the track a few times a year (and not with slicks). I don't want to have to continuely tune it either. Given all that, I'm trying to find the combo that will make it the most fun to drive on the street and highway, but still see something in the 11s (and a bit lower if had I the right suspension, tires and gearing) at the strip.
Thoughts?
Yep, the 2in tti's and ICH dual plane opened up to MW would be fine. The girdle will not add any height to the deck but it will push the oilpan a bit lower. We installed the girdle on my buddy's 440 last winter and it cleared the centerlink just fine. I would use the Hemi 6qt reproduction pan with an MP stroker windage tray for this type of build.
This type of build won't have any problems running in the 11's. :icon_smile_cool:
I guess you need to figure out how much hwy driving you want to do then pick a gear/tire diameter that you can live with. The cam will have to be matched to the stall speed/gearing for best performance.
I use Dwayne at Porter Racing Heads....he is an Indy dealer and a head porter. He can port the dual plane and fix you up with a set of heads. If you need contact info just ask.
On the cam ; are you wanting to run hydraulic or solid ?
Ron
I've seen Porter mentioned before here, so I would probably go through them.
What would the result be leaving the stock gears? It's primarily a street, not strip car. I'm running 275/60/15 tires on the rear.
Quote from: joflaig on November 15, 2007, 07:18:16 AM
I've seen Porter mentioned before here, so I would probably go through them.
What would the result be leaving the stock gears? It's primarily a street, not strip car. I'm running 275/60/15 tires on the rear.
What are your stock gears ? With a 275/60/15 i would want to run at least a 3.55 gear. Very manageable on the hwy and with a big stroker it will have plenty of grunt off the line. The key will be selecting the proper cam/converter to match it up.
A "tight" 3000 stall from Turbo Action for the converter would be my choice. :yesnod:
Solid or hydraulic cam ?
Ron
I've never cracked it open to check the gear, but judging by the drive and the history of the car when I got it, I'd guess they are factory stock size. I don't recal on a '69 RT if that makes them 3.55 or not.
Once we get into the world of cams I get less and less knowledgable. What are the primary postive/negatives between hydraulic and solid?
Quote from: joflaig on November 15, 2007, 09:16:37 AM
What are the primary postive/negatives between hydraulic and solid?
Solid cams are more stable at higher rpm's. Generally speaking they make more torque/horsepower given the same specs. They do require an adjustable valvetrain and periodic maintenance. (lash adjustment)
Hydraulic cams are less maintenance but in some cases require an adjustable valvetrain as well. Once the preload is set though... the adjustments are done. The downside is lifter collapse, lifter pump up and reduced high speed stability. For most mild applicaions these are non issues....but when you step it up then there can be problems.
Personally, i prefer a solid lifter cam in a performance build....a little more maintenance but less chance for problems. :Twocents:
Ron
What is lash adjustment? Is this something accessed without pulling the moror?
What do factory motors come with these days and do people with race motors almost always go with solid cams as a rule (I'm sure this could invoke endless debate)?
Since this is primarily a street car, I'm trying for build that requires less maintainence and results in excellent reliablity. My tinkering skills are limited.
...actually reading up on this topic, I can see a hydraulic cam will be the right choice for me.
firefighter3931 - just wanted to say I always get a little bit of an education when reading your posts.
thanks man!
Quote from: NYCMille on November 15, 2007, 03:49:16 PM
firefighter3931 - just wanted to say I always get a little bit of an education when reading your posts.
thanks man!
Agreed! :cheers:
Quote from: terrible one on November 15, 2007, 04:22:58 PM
Quote from: NYCMille on November 15, 2007, 03:49:16 PM
firefighter3931 - just wanted to say I always get a little bit of an education when reading your posts.
thanks man!
Agreed! :cheers:
Thanks fellas ! :2thumbs:
Ron
Quote from: joflaig on November 15, 2007, 12:37:18 PM
What is lash adjustment? Is this something accessed without pulling the moror?
What do factory motors come with these days and do people with race motors almost always go with solid cams as a rule (I'm sure this could invoke endless debate)?
Since this is primarily a street car, I'm trying for build that requires less maintainence and results in excellent reliablity. My tinkering skills are limited.
Quote from: joflaig on November 15, 2007, 01:41:37 PM
...actually reading up on this topic, I can see a hydraulic cam will be the right choice for me.
Ok.... back on topic ; As you've discovered lash is a periodic valve adjustment that verifies the clearance between the rocker arm and valve tip. It needs to be checked every so often....on most street builds that means once a season. The whole operation takes 30-40 minutes and is easy to do.
If you don't want to pull the valve covers once a season then the hydraulic cam is what you will want. ;)
Based on your driving style and intended use for this engine a hydraulic cam will work fine. :yesnod:
The MW Indy EZ's are probably overkill as well.....you could easily get by with a set of mildly worked Edelbrock RPM cylinder heads and be several hundred dollars ahead. On a street build the "standard" port window on a stroker makes for one mean torquey bad azz motor. Just ask Brian ( 1hot68) how he likes his. :icon_smile_big:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,35989.0.html
Ron
I well aware it's over kill, that's the whole idea! :naughty:
That being said, though, I'm still trying to balance things in such a way as I don't get killed at the pump. For some reason I don't mind spending thousands on the engine, but having to fill up ever 80 miles would just kill me.
Why, what do you think the torque and hp rating would be given the basline "feature set" I've decided on up to this point?
Quote from: joflaig on November 16, 2007, 01:35:08 PM
I well aware it's over kill, that's the whole idea! :naughty:
Well if you're gonna overkill it you need to match the rest of the components or it will be a poor performer. ;) That means stepping up the cam so that it works with the rest of the overkill parts. :yesnod:
With a big MW port the engine's powerband will be moved up several hundred rpm and if you run a small cam it's defeating the purpose, inmo. :Twocents:
Big ports make big power...no debating that. But, at what cost ? Low end power ? Based on how you intend to drive this car (3.55 gears/mild stall) you would be better served with a small high velocity intake port vs a slower high flowing port that is better suited to high rpm operation.
I'm not saying that a mw port won't work on your build but it wouldn't make much more power over a standard port given the parameters of the build. Put it this way ; using a mild hydraulic cam won't allow the bigger flowing MW ports to really shine and will cause a loss of bottom end power (torque) which is where this engine will be spending most of it's time.
A 512 with a set of e-heads will blow the tires off at will. It'll make in the 550hp/600tq range pretty easy with a nice flat torque curve....there will be power everywhere.....idle > redline. :2thumbs:
Hey, i like the Indy EZ's....they are a fantastic head but i'm not convinced that they would best serve your needs. :scratchchin: Ultimately it's your money and your choice though. ;)
It would be nice if you could go for a ride in Brian's car....the power of a well sorted out stroker is quite shocking your first time dropping the hammer. :devil:
Ron
Thanks for your all your thoughtful insights!
Your notion of 'power everywhere' is exactly what I'm after.
I can defintely see your point. Perhaps I should stick with the standard EZs. It's very difficult to balance all of these competing things! But it does seem antithetical to me to throw new heads on an engine that aren't ported! I imagine if I went with EZs I'd also be able to get more juice out of them in the future, if I chose to, as opposed to the bandwidth you might have with say RPMs.
Quote from: joflaig on November 16, 2007, 02:35:51 PM
Perhaps I should stick with the standard EZs. It's very difficult to balance all of these competing things! But it does seem antithetical to me to throw new heads on an engine that aren't ported! I imagine if I went with EZs I'd also be able to get more juice out of them in the future, if I chose to, as opposed to the bandwidth you might have with say RPMs.
Joflaig, if you're thinking about stepping up in the future then the std port EZ is the way to go. Along with the ICH dual plane which is also std port it will make a pretty torquey combo. When you step it up.... then the heads & intake could be opened up....for the Big upper HP power number. :icon_smile_big: Of course the cam, stall and rear end gears will need to be upsized when that time comes.
Fwiw, lots of guys race very effictively with the RPM heads and they can support 700hp fully ported in a max-effort build. However it would be easier to get there with a better flowing head. :Twocents:
Ron
Ps. I would still use PRH for the Indy EZ's....he can do a basic prep job on them and look for any potential issues. The guide clearance and valve job allways needs some work....this applies to any aftermarket head. Dwayne won't send something out unless it's 100% ready to go. :2thumbs:
Ron, you have put alot of great info into this build. :2thumbs:
but i have to be concerned with the commit that was made about him worring about gas milage. that makes me think that the whole combo as a package will not be matched right and will end in it not living up to it's full potential and may even end up as a disappointment.
grainted the stroker will have gobs of bottom end torque but as you mentioned it will need a good bit of cam which sounds like it will need to be a custom if he is wanting a hyd and the convertor will need to match that cam plus the gears need to be atleast 3.55 if not a tad bit lower if he runs a tall tire.
all of this togeather is not a recipe for gas milage.
I have no illusions about the worsened mileage. I know you can't avoid that, I'm just trying to keep things somewhat balanced so it's tolerable. You can't always have your cake and eat it too. With prices like they are, though, you can't help but think about it!
From everything I've learned, though, it does seem like the cam, torque converter and gear choices will play a very big role in the end.
At any rate, my list is certainly getting a lot more refined thanks to all your input! :2thumbs: :notworthy: :2thumbs:
Block:
sonic check
.030 overbore
decked (what is "zero" decked)
New parts:
500ci stroker kit from 440 Source, all the premium parts, balanced (not clear on piston choice)
ICH dual plane intake manifold
indy ez heads (standard and fully assembled from indy)
holley 950dp HP series or a proform 950hp
3.55 gears (275/60/15 tires)
TTI 2" headers
Hemi 6qt reproduction pan
MP stroker windage tray
Tranny:
external tranny cooler
beefier clutch
Turbo Action torque converter (not sure on the stall yet)
Open Questions:
comp cams hydraulic cam ??? (enough vacum for power breaks?)
compression ratio?
thermostat setting?
new timing chain?
aluminium main caps (main studs)?
msd ignition?
distribtor?
rev limiter?
fuel pump?
AND I know I am still missing a lot!
unfortunatly we have to be somewhat concerned over gas not only in the mpg but how poor it is getting as far as the amount of compression we can run in these older engines.
joflaig, the parts list looks good and i stand corrected on the gear ratio. a 3.55 gear will work well with 275/60/15 tires, i ran the same gear and tire combo with my challenger until i tore the gear up and it did very well, coarse my engine isn't 500 cid which is a plus in your favor.
the cam is going to be a major player since you not only have a large displacement engine but also power brakes.
Ron will give you a better idea on one, but more then likely the cam will need alot of lift and very little duration and a wide centerline. something around a 114 degrees.
i can't remember off the top of my head but if those EZ heads are aluminum then i would shoot for 10.1 compression, that will give you a good ratio with those heads and it will still be pump gas friendly.
one piece of advice on the timing set and cam, be sure to have the cam degreed in according to the cam manufactors specs. i have seen more then one way off in the past
and it will really hurt the performace of an engine.
thanks for the input Max.
Quote from: joflaig on November 16, 2007, 08:34:47 PM
Open Questions:
comp cams hydraulic cam ??? (enough vacum for power breaks?)
compression ratio?
thermostat setting?
new timing chain?
aluminium main caps (main studs)?
msd ignition?
distribtor?
rev limiter?
fuel pump?
AND I know I am still missing a lot!
The list looks good....you've done your homework. I would order the heads and intake from PRH as he is a INDY dealer and is quite familiar with them. They should be inspected and corrected if needed. No, they will not be perfect out of the box....none of them are ; Edelbrock included. :yesnod:
The Cam will be custom for sure. Like Max said a wide LSA grind will widen out the powerband, make lots of vacuum (power brakes) and be easy to tune. The Engle hydraulic profiles are awesome. I can look and come up with a custom stick if you wish. ;)
Compression in the 10-10.5:1 ratio with a dished piston will be required. Tight quench builds (.040-.060 piston to head clearance) make more power and are less prone to pre-detonation with pump gas. It pays to science out the shortblock in this area....the last thing you want is to have to mix in race fuel. There's no need for that if you do you homework and plan it out well. :scratchchin:
A 160-180 thermostat works fine.
A 3 bolt timing chain is my preference. The cam can be ordered with a 3 bold flank and i like Comp for the timing chain/gear set.
The stock caps are fine for this type of build but the mains need to be studded and align bored. Arp for the studs. If you're really planning to step it up in the future an aluminum cap should be considered so you don't have to tear it down later to add them.
I use the MP distributor with a MSD box and blaster coil. The MSD 6al has a rev limiter and comes with a 6000 rpm chip which is all you will need.
The Carter 120gph "street" pump is plenty for this combo. It's a mechanical pump. I would be looking at 3/8 in fuel line and a 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank.
Fuel economy won't be too bad with this combo as long as you keep your foot out of it. Having the engine set up for strong vacuum at cruising speeds will help bigtime. A big part of that is choosing the right cam so that the engine isn't lugging at lower throttle positions (hwy cruise rpm) and the converter is efficient enough to be locked up reducing slippage.
Ron
Wow Ron, I am in your debt!
Yes, any more specifics you can provide about what you might envision in terms of cam would be appreciated. It's always good to go in armed when you visit the speed shop.
So given my overall goals of more power across the band, low-mid 11s with street tires and suspension (and better with slicks, etc), reliablity, low maintenance, and lastly *decent* fuel economy do you think everythng we've come up with so far foots the bill?
Thanks.
I'm going to chime in on the fuel "economy" with my $0.02.
You'll never see double digits around town with that combo, even if you tuned it to the edge and drove like you had an egg under your right foot.
That said, invest in a wideband O2, a drill index, a jet box and do a whole lot of homework and you might get 14 mpg on the highway assuming 3.55 gearing or taller.
No out-of-the-box carb is going to give you decent performance AND fuel economy. Budget for some dyno-tuning at a reputable shop that knows carbs.
Or invest in a 40 gallon fuel cell.
I could live with 8mpg (lawful driving conditions).
Quote from: max on November 16, 2007, 07:58:04 PM
Ron, you have put alot of great info into this build. :2thumbs:
but i have to be concerned with the commit that was made about him worring about gas milage. that makes me think that the whole combo as a package will not be matched right and will end in it not living up to it's full potential and may even end up as a disappointment.
Max, i understand your concerns. :yesnod: This engine combo can be made to run descent as long as it's not lugging along. Keeping the lsa wide with a niceflat torque curve is the key. To achieve this end the engine will be pretty mild compared tp most stroker builds but the increased stroke will make it a torque monster allthough it likely will fall off before 6k. That's just the nature of the beast when compromises have to be made.
Ron
Quote from: joflaig on November 17, 2007, 09:15:28 AM
Wow Ron, I am in your debt!
Yes, any more specifics you can provide about what you might envision in terms of cam would be appreciated. It's always good to go in armed when you visit the speed shop.
So given my overall goals of more power across the band, low-mid 11s with street tires and suspension (and better with slicks, etc), reliablity, low maintenance, and lastly *decent* fuel economy do you think everythng we've come up with so far foots the bill?
Thanks.
The Cam will have to be ordered directly from Engle. I would order it with a 3 bolt flank....it' a better/stronger attachmant point for the upper gear. The cam i would use is a k60 intake lobe/ k62 exhaust lobe (split pattern grind) on a 112* lsa.
On paper it would look like :
288/291 advetised duration
238/244 duration @ .050 valve lift
.534/.539 lift
112* lobe seperation
As for running mid 11's on street tires...it won't happen. This monster will blow off any street tire at will. The engine will make enough power to run in the 11's but getting it to the ground is another story. ;) A set of slicks or MT drag radials will be needed for dragstrip duty. :yesnod:
Power brakes will be no problemo and it will be easy to tune. As for a torque converter ; the turbo action 11in "hemi" converter would be a good match with this cam and your 3.55/28in tire combo. :2thumbs:
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on November 17, 2007, 07:21:49 PM
Quote from: max on November 16, 2007, 07:58:04 PM
Ron, you have put alot of great info into this build. :2thumbs:
but i have to be concerned with the commit that was made about him worring about gas milage. that makes me think that the whole combo as a package will not be matched right and will end in it not living up to it's full potential and may even end up as a disappointment.
Max, i understand your concerns. :yesnod: This engine combo can be made to run descent as long as it's not lugging along. Keeping the lsa wide with a niceflat torque curve is the key. To achieve this end the engine will be pretty mild compared tp most stroker builds but the increased stroke will make it a torque monster allthough it likely will fall off before 6k. That's just the nature of the beast when compromises have to be made.
Ron
Ron thanks for clearing that up.
i figured a wide lsa on the cam would be great for the torque curve not too mention it would work well with the power brakes.
I see phrases like "monster" and "pretty mild" and I'm not sure where that puts me. I wish someone in the neighborhood had a stroker, but no so luck!
In the post entitled "What torque Converter??? Fresh Rebuild 440" he's got a build sort of similar, I think, minus the stroker. Is the drop in torque and hp at about 5200 rpm on his dyno sheet sort of what you were referring to?
I'm so used to my stock 440, I'm trying to imagine percisely what this thing will drive like. When you say "blow off any street tire at will", what do you mean by that?
What stall on the turbo action 11 inch Street Hemi converter?
Thanks!
Quote from: joflaig on November 18, 2007, 09:15:29 AM
I see phrases like "monster" and "pretty mild" and I'm not sure where that puts me. I wish someone in the neighborhood had a stroker, but no so luck!
In the post entitled "What torque Converter??? Fresh Rebuild 440" he's got a build sort of similar, I think, minus the stroker. Is the drop in torque and hp at about 5200 rpm on his dyno sheet sort of what you were referring to?
I'm so used to my stock 440, I'm trying to imagine percisely what this thing will drive like. When you say "blow off any street tire at will", what do you mean by that?
What stall on the turbo action 11 inch Street Hemi converter?
Thanks!
Strokers make monster torque as compared to a 440. By mild i am referring to the idle charachteristics and street manners of your proposed build. The cam profile largely determines how the engine will behave and with the cam that has been specced out it will sound mellow at idle compared to a smaller displacement engine (440) with a larger cam. :yesnod:
By stroking the engine you are moving the powerband lower and with the right parts...substantially increasing that power. ;)
Blowing the tires off at will means exactly that....stab the pedal and the tires will fry. It's hard to describe unless you've actually driven in one....but the low end power is unreal. :icon_smile_big:
The TA hemi converter should flash stall at 3000 or so behind your motor. This will get the engine into the meat of it's powerband and launch the car like a missile. You need to match the stall speed to the rest of the combo or it will be a dog off the line. This often happens when guys overcam their engines and wonder why it won't spin the tires. I've seen it at least a hundred times on this board ! :brickwall:
The reason for the 2800 stall is because you want to drive this car on the hwy. Ideally you want to have the stall speed close to the cruise rpm to reduce heat. All converters will slip but the closer you are to the stall speed the tighter they are. TA builds a very nice converter and they are reliable and efficient (low slippage = reduced heat). The 11in converter is a good compromise for this build....enough stall to launch the car and efficient enough to keep you and the trans happy on the hwy. The less slippage you have the better the fuel economy will be....simple as that ! :Twocents:
Ron
QuoteThe reason for the 2800 stall is because you want to drive this car on the hwy. Ideally you want to have the stall speed close to the cruise rpm to reduce heat. All converters will slip but the closer you are to the stall speed the tighter they are. TA builds a very nice converter and they are reliable and efficient (low slippage = reduced heat). The 11in converter is a good compromise for this build....enough stall to launch the car and efficient enough to keep you and the trans happy on the hwy. The less slippage you have the better the fuel economy will be....simple as that !
Ron, i'm glad you posted that about keeping the convertor tight enough and not causing excess heat on the trans from a convertor that is too large or loose. :2thumbs:
this needed to be mentioned on alot of the builds i have been seeing on here.
several years ago there was a local fellow around here running a 1971 dart with a mildly built 340 along with a 4500 stall convertor and 4.56 gears which was a 50/50 car and he would take it to the track every weekend and drove the car to work during the week.
he had that trans rebuilt atleast twice every year and i could not get it across to him that the 4500 stall convertor was the reason for trans problem not too mention his track time was 8.40's in the 1/8 which should have been alittle better as well.
long story short he had more convertor then he had engine and it was hurting him all the way around.
Quote from: max on November 18, 2007, 10:19:04 AM
Ron, i'm glad you posted that about keeping the convertor tight enough and not causing excess heat on the trans from a convertor that is too large or loose. :2thumbs:
Max, a good quality converter will be tight for around town driving and loose when you want to race. The brand of converter has a lot to do with it's street manners. Having tried several different brands over the years i've concluded that this is one area where "you get what you pay for". It pays to buy quality in this area. :icon_smile_big:
Further to that thought...i see no problem with running a high stall on the street as long as it's properly matched to the engine combo and the car has enough gear. I know several who run 8in (5000 stall) converters on the street w/o issue. Granted, these are not el cheapo $200.00 converters either. :lol:
Quote from: max on November 18, 2007, 10:19:04 AM
several years ago there was a local fellow around here running a 1971 dart with a mildly built 340 along with a 4500 stall convertor and 4.56 gears which was a 50/50 car and he would take it to the track every weekend and drove the car to work during the week.
he had that trans rebuilt atleast twice every year and i could not get it across to him that the 4500 stall convertor was the reason for trans problem not too mention his track time was 8.40's in the 1/8 which should have been alittle better as well.
long story short he had more convertor then he had engine and it was hurting him all the way around.
Based on that description i would have to agree....the converter was waaaaay loose for that combo. More than likely it was slipping like crazy creating heat and fragging his transmissions. Converter technology has progressed substantially over the years and stall speeds that would have been considered "race only" are now commonplace on todays street cars. :yesnod:
I've got a Dynamic 9.5in 4500 stall going in mine with the 4.10 Dana and i'm not the least bit concerned. :icon_smile_big: At normal off idle operation (light throttle) it will behave much like a stocker...maybe slightly looser but it will be lots of fun when the pedal gets mashed. Having driven in a few cars with the Dynamic 9.5 i have to say i'm impressed....it is a quality piece. :2thumbs:
Turbo Action & PTC are other brands i'm impressed with. They work very well if specced properly for the application. :icon_smile_cool:
Ron
Ps. Allthough this post is slightly off topic it is worth discussing in reference to the subject at hand. Hopefully it helps Joflaig understand converter selection a little better.
So just to recap, here's the goal for this "mild" 500ci stroker build:
Use:
Primarily street/highway, couple times a year at the strip
Desire:
Better pickup off the line, more power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy (yeah, I know), fits stock hood, and lastly room for future growth (porting heads, etc)
Note: car has power breaks, 275/60/15 rear tires
Block:
Sonic check
cleaned, .030 overbored, honed, decked, align honed
Engine:
500ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source, premium parts, balanced, dished pistons
Indy Dual Plane 440 Intake
Indy EZ Heads (standard and fully assembled from indy)
Holley 950 dp HP series or a Proform 950hp carb (drop base air cleaner)
2" TTI Headers
MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan
MP stroker Windage Tray
Engle Cam (k60 intake lobe/ k62 exhaust lobe --split pattern grind-- on a 112* lsa)
-3 bolt flank
-288/291 advetised duration
-238/244 duration @ .050 valve lift
-.534/.539 lift
-112* lobe seperation
Compression Ratio: 10-10.5:1
160-180 Thermostat
3 Bolt Timing Chain
ARP Studs
Aluminum Main caps
Tranny:
External Tranny Cooler
New Clutch
Turbo Action Hemi 11" Torque Converter (2800 stall)
Other:
3.55 Gears
MSD 6al Ignition (6000 rpm rev limiter)
MSD Blaster Coil
MP Distributor
Carter 120gph mechanical Fuel Pump (3/8 in fuel line, 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank)
What am I missing?
Ron, I've seen you mention both 3000 and 2800 stall, what would be the practcal difference?
I'm familier with the makers of aftermarket clutches and gears used with off-roading, what's popular for Mopar's?
What happens when you hit 6000 rpm with the rev limiter?
What would the practical difference be between 10:1 and 10.5:1 compression?
Thanks!
Quote from: joflaig on November 18, 2007, 05:46:12 PM
What am I missing?
You will need to sort out the rocker arms and pushrods. I would use a set of the Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod. This will allow you to dial in the proper preload and with cam lifts exceeding .510 lift this is the better way to go. If you decide to go with a mechanical cam in the future....you will allready have the rocker gear to support it. ;)
Quote from: joflaig on November 18, 2007, 05:46:12 PM
Ron, I've seen you mention both 3000 and 2800 stall, what would be the practcal difference?
I'm familier with the makers of aftermarket clutches and gears used with off-roading, what's popular for Mopar's?
What happens when you hit 6000 rpm with the rev limiter?
What would the practical difference be between 10:1 and 10.5:1 compression?
Thanks!
Converters are advertised for a range of operation. The 2800 stall would be behind say a mild 440 but behind a stroker it will flash up higher. The more torque you throw at it the higher it will stall.
Richmond or Strange will both carry a ring and pinion for your differential. There are probably a few other companies as well....
The MSD unit will start to drop cylinders when it reaches the rev limit. It's commonly referred to as a "soft touch" rpm limiter and is very safe.
The difference between 10 & 10.5 won't be that much. I looked on the 440 source website and they have a kit that is ideal for your proposed build. That kit uses a 27cc dished piston which yields a 10.1 compression ratio with the 75cc chamber EZ heads and a .040 Felpro head gasket. I would only bore the block to .030 if at all possible to keep the cylinder walls thicker and to maintain the structural integrity of the block. :yesnod:
It's also worthwhile to have the block sonic checked while it's in the machine shop. This procedure measures cylinder wall thickness. There's no point in spending hundreds of dollars machining a block that has thin cylinder walls. This will only cause heartache down the road.
Ron
You don't advice I buy the fully assembled ez heads or does Porter Racing do a bang up job putting in a custom valve train?
Quote from: joflaig on November 18, 2007, 07:34:54 PM
You don't advice I buy the fully assembled ez heads or does Porter Racing do a bang up job putting in a custom valve train?
Dwayne at PRH sells the fully assembled heads and is an Indy dealer. Indy is known for it's poor customer service but they do make a great product. The advantage of using a distributor is that if there are any issues you can deal directly with them and not Indy. :yesnod: There have been some quality issues with Indy over the years and sometimes defective parts make it out the door. :P
Cylinder heads are his specialty so if he sends them out they will be right. :2thumbs:
Ron
Hey, Ron I posted the build as it stand so far on moparts and the first thing I got back was, go for the ez-1s! :lol:
Anyway, there seems to be agreement that it's good build, but some opinions differ on the cam. They think a little bigger would work.
"go up at least 10 degrees on both lobes of your cam, something around 248/252"
If you care to bother here's the thread:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3963293&an=0&page=0#Post3963293
Quote from: joflaig on November 19, 2007, 12:59:33 PM
Hey, Ron I posted the build as it stand so far on moparts and the first thing I got back was, go for the ez-1s! :lol:
Anyway, there seems to be agreement that it's good build, but some opinions differ on the cam. They think a little bigger would work.
"go up at least 10 degrees on both lobes of your cam, something around 248/252"
If you care to bother here's the thread:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3963293&an=0&page=0#Post3963293
That's not surprising....most of the guys that posted on that thread are racers. I told you that this would be a mild build....very mild. ;)
AndyF has built a few of these and his remarks were similar to what i originally proposed. The std port RPM head for strong throttle response and a lower powerband. :yesnod:
They cams those guys are recommending are solid lifter profiles and you were wanting a hydraulic cam for zero maintenance. Like anything it just depends on what you can tolerate i suppose.
Andy's comments on the EZ heads are somewhat correct but the ICH DP will pick up some intake charge velocity due to the dual plane design. It's important to keep in mind the proposed powerband of this build....and how you are expecting it to behave. :scratchchin:
There are lots of ways to make power and many different opinions on how to get there. :icon_smile_big:
Ron
So many options! :think:
I guess it's my understanding that to get stock RPMs to what the standard EZs are does require porting. Would there be an RPM combo that would be comparable to the all Indy combo? I like the fact that with standard EZs I have so much room to grow if I want to down the road. If however there is some advataged to custom RPM setup over the standard EZ+dp intake for what I intend to do....
you can ask 10 different engine builders about building an engine and you will get 10 different engine combinations, not saying any of them will be wrong but that is what you will get.
go with the one you trust the most and who has answered all of your questions right here with great detail and experiance to back his claims.
how's that for a plug Ron? :)
:icon_smile_big:
I agree...too many cooks in the kitchen can be a bad thing, but it doesn't hurt to have someone taste the soup before serving it!
Thanks Max :2thumbs:
Ok, here's a suggestion for you Joflaig....lets call it a field trip. :icon_smile_big:
Member 1hot68 (Brian) has a freshly built stroker along the lines of what you are looking for. He also lives fairly close to you....a little over 200 miles....i checked both of your locations and mapquested it. :icon_smile_cool: My suggestion is that you get together with Brian and take him out for wings and a few pops and get a ride in his Charger. ;D
That should pretty much answer your question as to whether an Edelbrock headed 505 will satisfy your needs. ;)
Brian is a great guy and i'm sure he'd welcome the opportunity to meet a fellow member and show off his beautiful 68 R/T :2thumbs:
Ron
That's not a bad idea, thanks for the suggestion!
I guess the more I float this around the more I am hearing go with eddies. I guess the only question I have then would be given your knowledge so far of where this is coming from and going to, should the RPMs be ported and if so to what size? Would it make sense to go with an Eddy intake at the same time and are we talking about modfying the cam or stall at all?
So when is the road trip. :icon_smile_big: Honestly, it would be worth your while seeing as you are going to spend thousands building this engine. :yesnod:
As for the E-heads ; i would have them drop shiiped to Dwayne for a Stage 1 port and prep. There is no need for a full on port job at the level you will be at. Full porting helps when valve lift exceeds .600 lift. What you need is a little help with the low/mid lift flow numbers to fatten up the midrange power. As for the manifold ; my first choice would be the Holley Street Dominator which is a low rise single plane. It will fit nicely under the stock hood with a 3in drop base filter and the 950 Proform/Holley double pumper. The SD manifold will give you a little extra breathing up top without hurting the bottom end torque output.
The original cam is fine with a 2800 stall....if you want more cam then the stall should be increased but that will reduce efficiency which is one of your major concerns. For a car that will be primarily cruised with the odd track day this is the way i would go. With your 3.55's and a 2800-3000 stall the car will be fun to drive and the engine will be as efficient as it possibly can be. This will be a low maintenance motor...tune ups and oil changes and that's it. :icon_smile_big:
Your car on the other hand will be a different story....too much throttle stabbing and you'll be scraping rubber off your rear quarters. :lol:
Ron
I'm hearing a 512 is preferable to 500 and there would be no downside. Does this ring true? I know it fits in just the same and you would get a little more torque, but it seems to me nothing ever comes free?!
I think everything you have outlined is pretty finely balanced and tuned towards the goal. I am curious though what a slightly bigger cam might mean? Practically speaking what positive and negative effects would increasing it slightly have?
Quote from: joflaig on November 19, 2007, 07:26:01 PM
I'm hearing a 512 is preferable to 500 and there would be no downside. Does this ring true?
Yes, the 4.25 stroke with a 7.1in rod is a better choice. The internal clearance is better (no grinding) and the long rod improves the rod ratio which helps in several ways ; less cylinder wall side loading (better longevity) and increased dwell time at the top of the bore which helps with torque curve and is important with a "smallish" for the displacement cylinder head. This type of build keeps the torque curve flat...power everywhere as opposed to a racier build where the powerband is comparatively narrower. Guys that race don't care what's happening at 2500 rpm if they're launching their cars at 4500. They don't care about fuel ecomomy, idle quality or have power brakes either. :lol:
Quote from: joflaig on November 19, 2007, 07:26:01 PM
I am curious though what a slightly bigger cam might mean? Practically speaking what positive and negative effects would increasing it slightly have?
As cam duration increases the powerband will move up. Widening the lsa will flatten out the powerband and extend it in both directions given the same duration. The effect is that the power is linear instead of acute....meaning it comes on sooner and holds on longer but the sweet spot isn't as strong. That's really not much of an issue with a stroker because they make so much power to begin with. The other positive effect with widening out the lsa is that your idle quality will be quite good and it will be easy to tune and have plenty of vacuum for power brakes.
If you're curious about cam profiles go to the Comp Cams website and look for their tutorial on Valve timing....all the basics are covered. :2thumbs:
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on November 16, 2007, 08:18:07 AM
Quote from: joflaig on November 15, 2007, 12:37:18 PM
What is lash adjustment? Is this something accessed without pulling the moror?
What do factory motors come with these days and do people with race motors almost always go with solid cams as a rule (I'm sure this could invoke endless debate)?
Since this is primarily a street car, I'm trying for build that requires less maintainence and results in excellent reliablity. My tinkering skills are limited.
Quote from: joflaig on November 15, 2007, 01:41:37 PM
...actually reading up on this topic, I can see a hydraulic cam will be the right choice for me.
Ok.... back on topic ; As you've discovered lash is a periodic valve adjustment that verifies the clearance between the rocker arm and valve tip. It needs to be checked every so often....on most street builds that means once a season. The whole operation takes 30-40 minutes and is easy to do.
If you don't want to pull the valve covers once a season then the hydraulic cam is what you will want. ;)
Based on your driving style and intended use for this engine a hydraulic cam will work fine. :yesnod:
The MW Indy EZ's are probably overkill as well.....you could easily get by with a set of mildly worked Edelbrock RPM cylinder heads and be several hundred dollars ahead. On a street build the "standard" port window on a stroker makes for one mean torquey bad azz motor. Just ask Brian ( 1hot68) how he likes his. :icon_smile_big:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,35989.0.html
Ron
Hey Man, if you want to go for a ride sometime in my 505 stroker 5 speed dana 60 3.54 sometime let me know , if the weather holds up id be glad to take ya for a spin!! :D and if you have any questions i can help you with feel free to PM me anytime!! later Brian
Okay, guess I'm going with the 512 -- though I have seem comments that a 7.1 rod won't be as reliable over the long haul.
I'm going with the 6.8 rod combo 505 build. Slightly taller piston should be more reliable for street use over the long haul. I'll be using custom diamond pistons to get to the 10.5 that I want with my Eddys.
Quote from: joflaig on November 19, 2007, 10:35:34 PM
Okay, guess I'm going with the 512 -- though I have seem comments that a 7.1 rod won't be as reliable over the long haul.
I don't see it as an issue....heck there are thousands of lowdeck strokers running around on the streets with no issues. The 451 build uses a piston that has a compression height around 1.30 or so. The 4.25/7.1 rod uses a 1.48 piston which has a longer skirt. :scratchchin:
Ron
I think we're getting really close! :2thumbs:
Now, you had advised on Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod. What would you use for springs? And lastly, how would roller lifters fit into this picture (excluding cost)?
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 09:08:03 AM
Now, you had advised on Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod. What would you use for springs?
The stock E-head springs are fine with the Engle grind we picked out. :2thumbs:
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 09:08:03 AM
And lastly, how would roller lifters fit into this picture (excluding cost)?
Roller lifters complicate the build. The roller cam requires a bronze distributor gear which is a 'wear" item and requires periodic replacement. The Roller cam will last forever so no worries there. The roller lifters require attention as well...the needle bearings are also a "wear" item and the lifters will require annual inspections. Once the needle bearings start to go the lifter will need to be rebuilt or replaced. The valvesprings will also have increased seat/open pressures and will wear out faster requiring more frequent replacement. The more agressive valve action will also accelerate wear on your valve seats/valves. A descent full roller rocker should be used with this type of cam (Harland Sharp/T&D/Jesel) and will run in the $700 range at the entry level. If you're looking for a zero maintenance build this is not it. ;)
Granted, roller cams make excellent power....in most cases +25-30hp all things being equal. You have to ask yourself if that increased cost and maintenance is really worth the extra $$ and wrench time. :scratchchin:
This (roller cam) is not a simple oil change & tuneup type build....you need to stay on top of it and pay attention. :yesnod:
Ron
That's excellent info!
It sounds pretty nifty, but you are right it would not be for me.
Re-compiled list:
Use:
Primarily street/highway, couple times a year at the strip
Desire:
Better pickup off the line, more power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy (yeah, I know), fits stock hood, and lastly room for future growth (porting heads, etc)
Note: car has power breaks, 275/60/15 rear tires
Block:
Sonic check
cleaned, .030 overbored, honed, decked, align honed
Engine:
-512ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source (4.250" stroke/7.100" rod), premium parts, balanced, dished pistons
-Holley Street Dominator carb (low rise single plane)
-Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, Stage 1 cnc porting, Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod, stock springs
-Holley 950 dp HP series or a Proform 950hp carb (3" drop base air cleaner)
-Richmond or Strange 3.55 Gears (ring and pinion)
-2" TTI Headers
-MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan
-MP stroker Windage Tray
-Engle Cam (k60 intake lobe/ k62 exhaust lobe --split pattern grind-- on a 112* lsa)
--3 bolt flank
--288/291 advertised duration
--238/244 duration @ .050 valve lift
--.534/.539 lift
--112* lobe seperation
-compression ratio: 10.5:1
-160-180 Thermostat
-3 Bolt Timing Chain
-ARP Studs
-New Main caps (new ductile Iron or Billet steel?)
Tranny:
-External Tranny Cooler
-New Clutch
-Turbo Action Hemi 11" Torque Converter (2800 stall)
Misc:
-MSD 6al Ignition (6000 rmp rev limiter)
-MSD Blaster Coil
-MP Distribtor
-Carter 120gph mechanical Fuel Pump (3/8 in fuel line, 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank)
-High volume oil pump
That looks like quite the list....Christmas will be coming early. :icon_smile_big:
A couple of other small things ;
(1) fuel pump pushrod
(2) Hardened oil pump drive
(3) Heavy duty flexplate for the converter and arp hardware.
Of course you will need a full gasket set and probably some other miscelaneous stuff....but that should get you going.
Ron
Yup, that's for sure! :laugh:
I'm still getting a lot of feedback from folks saying with what is now a 512 engine that the cam is too small. FWIW, I ran it by Comp Cams and they can back with this:
21-228-4 high lif (3 bolt)
285 297 ADV.
241 247 @50
.545 .545 LIFT 1.5
110 LSA
106 CENTERLINE
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 05:16:08 PM
Yup, that's for sure! :laugh:
I'm still getting a lot of feedback from folks saying with what is now a 512 engine that the cam is too small. FWIW, I ran it by Comp Cams and they can back with this:
21-228-4 high lif (3 bolt)
285 297 ADV.
241 247 @50
.545 .545 LIFT 1.5
110 LSA
106 CENTERLINE
Yep, that one will work too...it's a little bigger on the .050 duration but is cut on a narrow(er) 110* lsa. Overall it would equal out and the performance would be pretty close....the idle might be a little more noticable but nothing radical. The Comp XE high lift cams are descent and make excellent power. :2thumbs:
I would have no problem running that one either.....but definately nothing bigger ! :nono:
You're still good to go with the stock e-head springs. ;)
Ron
Engle seems to have this really good rep, are the Comp numbers applicable to something Engle can put out?
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 06:28:05 PM
Engle seems to have this really good rep, are the Comp numbers applicable to something Engle can put out?
Yes, but it would have to be a custom grind which is no big deal. All of the shelf Engle cams are single pattern and that Comp is a split pattern like the custom Engle i originally posted.
Ok, if you want to a little bigger.... then a K62/k64 on a 110* lsa is as big as i would go.
291/298 advertised
244/249@.050
.539/.557 lift
110* lsa
This would be very close to the Comp xe285hl that you linked to earlier....and would behave in much the same way.
Ron
Great, I will take that under advisement.
I have to say, this board just wouldn't be the same without your presence!
:notworthy:
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 07:00:53 PM
Great, I will take that under advisement.
Cool....either one will get the job done. :2thumbs:
That's as big as you will get me to commit to....any bigger and you're on your own. :slap: :lol:
The guys on Moparts don't have to drive this car or put gas in the tank...you do, so remember that. ;)
Ron
But it sounds like your preference would be with the Engle brand, right? I mean, if you had to choose...
Thanks.
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 07:16:18 PM
But it sounds like your preference would be with the Engle brand, right? I mean, if you had to choose...
Thanks.
Yep, i like the Engle hydraulics and the Comp XE solids....just my preference. Ask any member here if they're happy with their Engle cam....there are several who have made the jump and never looked back. ;)
I've also recommended the Comp XE solids to a few members with excellent results....but those are more agressive builds than you will have...more stall speed and steeper gearing. :yesnod:
Ron
Well at least someone over at moparts finally said the latest combo would work, though they prefered a 248/252 @.050 and at least 540 lift, they also said it was "close enough". :lol:
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 07:46:37 PM
Well at least someone over at moparts finally said the latest combo would work, though they prefered a 248/252 @.050 and at least 540 lift, they also said it was "close enough". :lol:
Yep, i read the thread....i know most of those guys. Zippy and I have met several times and Streetwize posts here as well. Both are smart dudes...but like anything in engine building you will get lots of opinions. :icon_smile_big:
One guy posted on that thread is running a hydraulic roller with a little less duration than your "revised :icon_smile_big: cam" and seems very happy with it. Interestingly enough his is built for the
same purpose that yours will be. ;)
Ron
Well I guess the next step is talking to the machine shop, giving Porter Racing a call and to start ordering parts!
I can't wait :icon_smile_big:!
Ya, the fun begins :lol: Make sure you have the block sonic checked as i mentioned earlier. You don't need to bore it more than .030....less is better. Once the block checks out then you can pick a bore diameter to go with the rest of your rotating assembly.
When you talk to Dwayne tell him i said Hello. ;)
Keep us up to speed as things progress....this will be lots of fun. :cheers:
Ron
Will do. This will be my winter project.
------------------------------------
So just to re-iterate, this is the "final" list:
Use:
Primarily street/highway, couple times a year at the strip
Desire:
Better pickup off the line, more power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy (yeah, I know), fits stock hood, and lastly room for future growth (porting heads, etc)
Note: car has power breaks, 275/60/15 tires
Block:
Sonic check, pressure test
cleaned, .030 overbored, honed, decked, align honed, squared
Engine:
512ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source (4.250" stroke/7.100" rod), premium parts, balanced, dished pistons
Holley Street Dominator Carb (low rise single plane)
Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, Stage 1 cnc porting, Crane adjustable ductile iron rockers with a heavy duty chrome moly pushrod, stock springs
Holley 950 dp HP series or a Proform 950hp carb (3" drop base air cleaner)
Richmond or Strange 3.55 Gears (ring and pinion)
2" TTI Headers
MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan
MP stroker Windage Tray
Engle Cam (k62 intake lobe/ k64 exhaust lobe --split pattern grind-- on a 110* lsa) -- custom grind
-3 bolt flank
-291/298 advertised
-244/249@.050
-.539/.557 lift
-110* lsa
compression ratio: 10.5:1
160-180 Thermostat
3 Bolt Timing Chain
ARP Studs
New Main caps (aluminum, new ductile Iron or Billet steel?)
Tranny:
External Tranny Cooler
New Clutch
Turbo Action Hemi 11" Torque Converter (2800 stall)
Heavy duty flexplate and ARP hardware.
Misc:
MSD 6al Ignition (6000 rmp rev limiter)
MSD Blaster Coil
MP Distribtor
Carter 120gph mechanical Fuel Pump (3/8 in fuel line, 3/8 in pickup for the gas tank)
Fuel pump pushrod
High volume Oil Pump
Hardened Oil Pump Drive
:2thumbs: :musik010: :ricky: :punkrocka: :drive: :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 07:00:53 PM
Great, I will take that under advisement.
I have to say, this board just wouldn't be the same without your presence!
:notworthy:
Man that for sure !! ( the comment about Ron) :musik010:
on a side note my stroker has a comp cams 501 lift stick and i love it , true it could have been bigger maybe but it is truely an animal the way it is :drive:
what's your cam profile? hydraulic?
Quote from: joflaig on November 20, 2007, 10:04:52 PM
what's your cam profile? hydraulic?
its a comp hyd. 292h cam i dont have the rest of the specs in front of me right now (they are in a file at the shop) Ill try to post them tommarow its 292 dur 501 lift intake and exhaust ols school grind :coolgleamA:
just to let you know id go with the stuff that Ron reccomended as thats who id ask for the same info he knows hes stuff WAY better than most people who think they do!!
The comp 292/501 is a descent cam...single pattern grind ;
292 advertised
244@.050
.501 lift
110* lsa
This is similar to the old MP 509 grind which was an SSH44 Racer brown cam. The new MP cam is bigger....more duration, basicly a drag race cam for a stock headed 440.
Joflaig....yours will have similar characteristics (as Brian's) in terms of idle qulity/street manners but it will make more power due to the faster valve action. The Engle cams are designed for a mopar .904 lifter diameter while that Comp is a generic GM grind.
Ron
Everything looks good man, good luck with the build!
If your motor turns out like Brian's, you better save a little extra money this spring for some new tires :icon_smile_big:.
Question for Ron and everyone else, would 1.6 ratio rockers help in this situation? I suppose it might help some in the upper Rpm's, but if your not going to spin it past 6k then maybe its not worth it?
by the way the reason i went with the 501 cam was because i wanted to stick with stock rockers, which were changed to ductile rollers soon after it was built anyway!
Quote from: supserdave on November 20, 2007, 11:55:40 PM
Question for Ron and everyone else, would 1.6 ratio rockers help in this situation? I suppose it might help some in the upper Rpm's, but if your not going to spin it past 6k then maybe its not worth it?
Dave, the 1.6 rockers would probably help a little but the downside is you need to run stiffer valvesprings to keep the valvetrain stable with the increased valve action. With hydraulic cams you are somewhat limited due to the lifter design...too much spring pressure and the lifters will collapse. On a fast rate hydraulic (Engle/ Comp XE hl series) my preference is for a 1.5 rocker for those reasons.
Ron
I went down to the only mopar specialists in town this morning and talked to the owner for over
a half hour. I presented him with the list that you all helped me formulate here. He said I had
done my homework and that it looked like a really good, well thought-out build. At any rate, if someone like me can go into a engine shop and sound like I know what I'm talking about then it's definitely because I've been well educated! Thanks! :cheers:
The place I went to is called Kilpatrick Engine (http://www.kilpatrickengine.com). They were recommended by the resto shop and basically specialize in mopar. The owner runs several drag cars too. In fact on the shop floor he had a 528 hemi that had blown up after a couple hundred runs. There was also a #s matching hemi out of 67 GTX they were rebuilding and many 727s getting rebuilt as well. He walked me through their process and showed me all their equipment. I probably don't know all the tell tale things to watch for when checking out an engine shop, but I was impressed none the less.
One of the main things he suggested I change was the cam. He said to go to a Comp Cam, said something about the lobes being for chryslers. The profile he suggested was pretty close to the Engle.
He nixed the idea of a girdle and didn't think I should bother replacing the main caps, but that it wouldn't hurt if I did (I think I will).
He said that the heads should only need minimal work and no cnc. He also suggested a Comp rocker arm set and showed my how the oiling worked to an advantage with a set he had in the shop.
For the tranny he advised I go with a B&M flex plat, Red clutch and band, 5:1 lever and ANA ultimate sprag gear (I have no idea what that is!)
He had nothing negative to say about 440 source though he did have some kit in stock for a 520 that he said would work as well as the 512 kit. He said the Chinese made cranks used to be terrible, but are fine now. He said I should go with the Clevite 77's, H series rod bearings and I beam rods and ARP2000 rod bolts.
One other big thing was adding positraction. I have a '69 R/T automatic, which should have a 3.23 8 3/4 that does not have sure grip. He said the 8 3/4 should handle this whole setup without a problem. He said to stay away from Auburn for the sure grip. Anyone have any advice on rebuilding the rear end? I will go with 3.55s.
They don't have a dyno, but he said they have so much experience with combos like this they can pretty much dial it in and when the motor is broken in I can get it tweaked on a dyno later on. He was pretty much against dyno-ing a freshly built motor.
In terms of warranty, they will only warranty their own work, but If I come in with rod hanging out forget it. I guess this is probably always a very, very gray area.
Cost wise, he thought he could rebuild the tranny for about 900 bucks. This would include all the parts (probably not the converter, I would think?). On the labor for the motor he said I was looking at 35-40 hours at $86 an hour for about 3k. Does this sound right?
You'll love that cam.... I ran the K60/K64 110* in an Indy headed 440 (very similar to your planned build) recently and it made gobs of torque and HP... you'll love the Engle stick :2thumbs:
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 11:33:45 AM
One of the main things he suggested I change was the cam. He said to go to a Comp Cam, said something about the lobes being for chryslers. The profile he suggested was pretty close to the Engle.
The Engle cams are also ground for Chrysler engines....same as the Comp XE hl grinds that he is recommending. The xe285hl is pretty close to the Engle cam we picked out. I still like the Engle but it's your call....
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 11:33:45 AM
He nixed the idea of a girdle and didn't think I should bother replacing the main caps, but that it wouldn't hurt if I did (I think I will).
I would still use billet steel caps and main studs along with a line bore....at 500+hp this is a good idea ;)
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 11:33:45 AM
He said that the heads should only need minimal work and no cnc. He also suggested a Comp rocker arm set and showed my how the oiling worked to an advantage with a set he had in the shop.
A basic cleanup of the heads and guide clearance check/valvejob should be done. The Comp rockers are overkill with a hydraulic cam....you can spend the money if you want to but there won't be any performance improvement vs the ductile iron rockers. :Twocents:
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 11:33:45 AM
For the tranny he advised I go with a B&M flex plat, Red clutch and band, 5:1 lever and ANA ultimate sprag gear (I have no idea what that is!)
Those are all good trans upgrades. I would opt for the 4.2 lever as opposed to the 5.1 as it releases the bands earlier...basicly more street friendly. The bolt in sprag is a safety feature in case you break an axle/u-joint/driveshaft....it keeps the trans from exploding. :o PTC or Turbo action can fix you up with a nice 2500-2800 stall.
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 11:33:45 AM
One other big thing was adding positraction. I have a '69 R/T automatic, which should have a 3.23 8 3/4 that does not have sure grip. He said the 8 3/4 should handle this whole setup without a problem. He said to stay away from Auburn for the sure grip. Anyone have any advice on rebuilding the rear end? I will go with 3.55s.
The older clutch style suregrips are stronger and rebuildable...they are the better choice. Dr Diff can rebuild it for you and install new bearings, a ring and pinion and sure grip. I would send it out to him. :2thumbs:
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 11:33:45 AM
They don't have a dyno, but he said they have so much experience with combos like this they can pretty much dial it in and when the motor is broken in I can get it tweaked on a dyno later on. He was pretty much against dyno-ing a freshly built motor.
In terms of warranty, they will only warranty their own work, but If I come in with rod hanging out forget it. I guess this is probably always a very, very gray area.
I would insist that the engine be dynoed. Most good engine builders won't have a problem with that and it's a good way to make sure the engine is properly broken in with a controlled environment. The engine can also be tuned for optimum performance and your fuel delivery/ignition curve will be spot on before you drop it in the car. If there's a problem with the engine it will show up while it's on the dyno and corrections can be made
before you take delivery. The onus is on him to back up his macjhine work/assembly should something happen. The shop will be extra careful looking parts over and assembling the engine if they know that it will be going on the pump. If they won't dyno and break in the motor...find another shop that will. :yesnod: There is a dyno in your area and these guys have used it....they can make it happen if they want to.
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 11:33:45 AM
Cost wise, he thought he could rebuild the tranny for about 900 bucks. This would include all the parts (probably not the converter, I would think?). On the labor for the motor he said I was looking at 35-40 hours at $86 an hour for about 3k. Does this sound right?
Those prices seem in line allthough the $86/hr shop rate seems a little high. If they do good work then it's worth it. :Twocents:
Ron
Thanks Ron that is all really excellent advice. :2thumbs:
There are a couple of dynos in town and this shop even brings one in for a contest in the summer I think. He talked about some zinc thing so that the cam would essentially be "pre-broken" in. Is there any valid argument against letting a newly built engine open up on the dyno?
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 07:23:27 PM
He talked about some zinc thing so that the cam would essentially be "pre-broken" in.
The builder is referring to exteme pressure additives, namely Zinc & Phosphorus which are needed during the breakin and afterwards. This has been discussed numerous times here on the board. Bottom line ; the latest batch of passenger car oil formulations Suck and you need an additive to keep your cam/lifters happy.
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 07:23:27 PM
Is there any valid argument against letting a newly built engine open up on the dyno?
Actually, there's no valid reason why it shouldn't be done. The first 20 minutes of the engine's life are the most critical. The cam forms a wear pattern with the lifters and the bearings and rings are worn in during this important time. The newer style Moly piston rings seat up very fast and the dyno operator can monitor all the critical engine functions while it's on the machine. Stuff like oil pressure, water temperature, air/fuel ratios and exhaust gas temperature will indicate that there might be something wrong if any of these values are out of whack. :scratchchin:
The engine can also be fine tuned while it's on the dyno ; timing curve and air/fuel ratios can be dialed in for best performance so there won't be any guesswork when you drop it in the car. With a build of this magnitude (and expense) the dyno break in (and tune) is a no brainer. You'll sleep much better at night knowing that all is right before dropping the engine into the car. You will also know how much power it makes and where that power comes in and where it peaks. :yesnod:
Ron
Yeah, he did mention the fast break-in moly rings.
So how does that work, they complete the build put it in a truck and go over to the dyno shop and test and tune themselves or with the folks who have the dyno? I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't want to see that first hand. This would be where they first fire it up, right?
Quote from: joflaig on December 04, 2007, 08:57:20 PM
Yeah, he did mention the fast break-in moly rings.
So how does that work, they complete the build put it in a truck and go over to the dyno shop and test and tune themselves or with the folks who have the dyno? I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't want to see that first hand. This would be where they first fire it up, right?
Thats basically what we do at our shop.
We send ALL ENGINES, when completed, just down the road to an Independant Dyno testing facility.
We will NOT even put a crank in a Block for ANYBODY, unless we're doing the engine complete, finished, and Dyno tested/Tuned !
We insist upon it !
And YES, we run the engine to MAXIMUM Horsepower/RPM as many times as possible AFTER BREAK-IN, in an 8 hr. day while tuning.
It's the only way we can PROVE a patent product, prior to the customer paying for his engine.
If ANYTHING is gonna go wrong, WE WANT TO KNOW FIRST ! Then it's our problem, NOT the customers.
Thats just "good business", and we're in the engine business !
We always try to attend the actual Dyno'ing of the engine, in our customers best interest, but time doesn't always permit, we're just too damn busy !
Customers are ALWAYS invited to attend the session ! It's their engine.
Anyways, we always attach an instruction program, specific to our criterion on the particular engine, for the Professional Dyno operator to follow & adhere to.
And believe me the guy is VERY Professional and good at what he does. Thats all he does is test engines, from all over, for various Race Teams.
Your shop should have no problems with the dyno session as stated above.
It's in EVERONE's best interest, theirs and yours, and most importantly, your Engines/Investment BEST INTEREST !
Bob out.
Well said Bob....i like the way your shop does business. :2thumbs:
Joeflaig, talk with the builder and tell him you want to attend the dyno session and observe. :scope:
It'll be a great learning experience for you. :icon_smile_big:
Ron
I think I have a plan then, thanks!
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 05, 2007, 11:38:07 AM
It'll be a great learning experience for you. :icon_smile_big:
Ron
And one you will never forget.. ;)
This is definitely one for the books. When this one is done and dyno'd we will have to make sure it goes into Proven combo's..
Ron, you should write a book. (Not that you haven't written more than a few on here allready).. ;)
Quote from: joflaig on November 14, 2007, 07:50:54 PM
I'm still far from pinning down the exact details on my engine rebuild, but I do have some general, broader questions.
1. Would there be any argument at all for keeping the stock hp exhaust manifolds on a 500ci stroked 440, .30 over, runnng EZs or EZ-1s -- or ditch 'em?
2. Is there an intake/carb combo that will fit under the stock hood on a '69 with EZ-1 (max wedge) heads?
3. What would you do to tranny (it's an auto) with this motor? Beefier clutch?
4. Rear end is totally stock, any concerns here in terms of strength standing up to all the torque?
5. Do you think we're looking at 8mpg or 10mpg (I know we're missing tons of details still)? I am happy with 10mpg, but 8mpg (lawful driving behavior) starts to get a bit much.
Thanks guys -- and yes I've read, and re-read most posts on the board I could find related to this stuff!
I had a 500 stroker in my 69 RR with a mild cam, singleplane intake ( TM-7 ) and a DP 850 with original magnum exhaustmanifolds and original 906 heads; it wasn't a perfect combo; it had a little bog between 1000 and 1500 rpm, i think due to the intake. Midrange power was awesome and good but after approx. 4500-5000 rpm the engine would "stall" i don't know how to say it perfect in English, but it was just like all the power broke down above that rpm-range.
The big volume needs to breathe in my opinion. Good heads, good cam, good intake.
if you keep things on the moderate side you will get a fast engine that is good to drive in idle, midrange and will get a decent gasmileage.
good luck,
Marcel
the netherlands
Quote from: Steve P. on December 05, 2007, 01:06:51 PM
This is definitely one for the books. When this one is done and dyno'd we will have to make sure it goes into Proven combo's..
I agree, and I will try and get as much detail in this thread as I can so others can get some value out of it. I wish I could speed up the whole process, but it's unlikely the engine will see the dyno until late Feb.
Speaking of dynos I called both places that have them in town. One shop will only dyno what they build. The other will do three pulls for $350 bucks. They said I could sit in, no problem. I'm not so sure this includes any tuning.
When the engine shop is done and has it ready for the dyno should it be started up for the first time and broken in strictly on the dyno?
Sounds like an adventure. Enjoy the ride! Not that I can or should add anything but wtf :Twocents:
What were the specifics of the 520 kit that this builder had? Would he cut you a break to use it?
Also for what it's worth... I posted a link with Barton's labor rates recently... it was $70 / hour for sake of comparison. I'd imagine it's still valid. They also posted a rate of $440 to install billet caps & studs and align bore/hone. I paid more local but I felt better that it wasn't too far off.
As for the rear... if you saw any the last couple MA mags you might have seen my friend Rick building the 8.75 in the Runner. He's using an MP aluminum chunk housing, NOS 3.55 gears, a tru-track diff, 1350 yoke, and 33 spline axles. So far so good - but we still haven't gotten it back on the track again either. But that same investment will get you a Dana 60 from Dr. Diff. :drool5:
Oh well... good luck :cheers:
Great info Ron , always a joy to read your posts , very informative.
What was the reason you opted for a single plane intake , only ask as i've fitted a single plane on the 440 , but heard you loose low end torque , won't know till i give her a blast.
Quote from: BrianShaughnessy on December 05, 2007, 07:42:49 PM
What were the specifics of the 520 kit that this builder had? Would he cut you a break to use it?
I don't recall the specs, I think he had it and just wanted to off load it.
Quote from: BrianShaughnessy on December 05, 2007, 07:42:49 PM
As for the rear... if you saw any the last couple MA mags you might have seen my friend Rick building the 8.75 in the Runner. He's using an MP aluminum chunk housing, NOS 3.55 gears, a tru-track diff, 1350 yoke, and 33 spline axles. So far so good - but we still haven't gotten it back on the track again either. But that same investment will get you a Dana 60 from Dr. Diff. :drool5:
Yeah, the goal here is more or less just replace the ring and pinion and swap in a sure-grip unit (clutch-type). Beyond that I don't want to go over board too much on the rear end. You could just keep going and going and yes in the end you have a Dana 60 or a new complete Moser something or other.
Quote from: Animal on December 05, 2007, 07:48:22 PM
Great info Ron , always a joy to read your posts , very informative.
What was the reason you opted for a single plane intake , only ask as i've fitted a single plane on the 440 , but heard you loose low end torque , won't know till i give her a blast.
Thanks Adam :wave:
The reason for the single plane is because the stroker makes so much bottom end power that in most cases the slight reduction in torque won't even be missed. Of course, the single plane also breathes better up top and a stroker needs all the air and fuel it can get.
There's nothing wrong with a single plane on a 440 as long as the rest of the combo is matched to it. My 446 has a single plane on it and the Street Dominator was a better choice than the Performer RPM for that specific build. If you have enough Cylinder head flow/Cam + gear & stall speed... the single plane will be a better choice. ;)
Ron
Thanks Ron, should be ok then. :icon_smile_big:
Good news and bad news. Just came back from the shop. The have finished my interior! I brought my camera, but there was no memory card, doh! :brickwall: Anyway, it's all black: new headliner, new carpet (lead septum underneath), black leather Corbeau TRS racing seats (seat frames chopped 2 inches), 5-point racing harnesses (black, with black shoulder pads) AND a custom fab-ed 4 point roll cage, with a cross bar from the top of the drivers side to the bottom of the passengers side and a harness bar which on the passenger side is hinged and has a pin in one side for easier access to the back seat. In addition there is a new Billet Specialties steering wheel. I also got a new Wildwood discs on all 4 corners, yehaw!
More good news: I brought the part number (2852838) for a '69 8 3/4 and we got under the car and checked it out. It seems like the whole rear axel was replaced, possibly in the early 80s they thought. The numbers we found were a 3 on one line then 2881488 and under that 82. The REALLY good news was that it looks like I already have a 3.55 sure-grip rear end. When the car was in neutral both wheels spun on the jackstand. Also, we put markers on one tire and turned the drive shaft. It took about 3 and a half turns to get the tire to go around once. Does this all sounds right to you guys? They are going to open it up just to check the condition. Lord knows you can't hear a problem in the rear end when you are driving this thing. At a minimum they thought I should replace the clutch pads.
The bad news was that it seems my steering box is on the way out. I just assumed the steering was a little loose because it was an older car. I have to research a new one. They mentioned something about "fast ratio". I have power steering.
FIRM FEEL. just FIRM FEEL.
Quote from: Steve P. on December 06, 2007, 07:39:28 PM
FIRM FEEL. just FIRM FEEL.
:iagree: Firm feel does a nice job with steering boxes. :2thumbs:
Joflaig, sounds like you have a 3.55 suregrip centersection. There is a number on the driverside near the yoke and that number will tell us what case you have. It will be a 741/742/489....those are the last 3 numbers in the sequence. Which one do you have ?
Ron
I went and ordered from Firm Feel after reading all the other posts on the board. I got the stage II '73 or later box with the large sector steering gear and a new pitman arm. I couldn't go with the fast ratio setup due to header clearance problems.
As for the #s I'll have to check on that next time I am over at the shop.
I sure saved a ton of money on the rear end though!
Very good. You will love it...
Since I now have some cash freed up from not having to muck with a new posi and gears I though I'd use it to replace the shocks and springs. Based on all my reading here, the air shocks I have (a remnant from the 80s no doubt) don't seem to be a good thing for the body or for handling (why were they popular :shruggy:).
Given this build is a "mild" mostly street setup my only goals for the strip with this would be to gain more traction at the line and for the street not to have an extremly hard ride (I can live with something that is somewhat hard). So, I was thinking SS springs (mp, eaton or espo?). If in the future I do get a set of drag radials for trips to the track, would that, in combination with my engine build and SS springs, create any problems for my 8 3/4 3.55 rear end?
I've seen a million recomendations for various brands of shocks. What would be a good combo here?
I am also interested in SS springs because I'd like to gain a couple inches of height in the rear for a raked stance.
Thanks!
I went with the MP SS springs and the Comp Engineering 3 way adjustable shocks. :2thumbs:
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 07, 2007, 04:21:42 PM
I went with the MP SS springs and the Comp Engineering 3 way adjustable shocks. :2thumbs:
Hmm, they sound good, but given my use case this notice worries me:
"NOTE: These shocks are designed for DRAG RACE use only! Not for street use. "
You don't believe everything you read...do ya ? ;)
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 07, 2007, 08:17:30 PM
You don't believe everything you read...do ya ? ;)
Certainly not :icon_smile_wink: but I could see myself getting irrated with adjustable shocks. My goal is for a little flexbility and reach in each direction and with minimal manual intervention -- same reason I'm taking your advice on the hydraulic cam. :)
Quote from: joflaig on December 07, 2007, 10:46:05 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 07, 2007, 08:17:30 PM
You don't believe everything you read...do ya ? ;)
Certainly not :icon_smile_wink: but I could see myself getting irrated with adjustable shocks. My goal is for a little flexbility and reach in each direction and with minimal manual intervention -- same reason I'm taking your advice on the hydraulic cam. :)
A true dual purpose shock needs to be adjustable for best perforomance in all circumstances. You can have your cake and eat it too... but you will have to do a little work on track day. ;)
Ron
I guess like everyone I am a bit lazy!
The guys at the resto shop were talking about the engine build and their only comment on what I might be overlooking was as follows:
"We talked about it and we think that you should go to a larger capacity aluminum radiator. I would also recommend a SPAL electric fan set-up, thermostatically controlled. Then we would also mount an engine oil cooler and a trans cooler, all kind of in the same area up front."
The tranny cooler was already a done deal. What do 'yall think about the other two items?
No need for an oil cooler as longas you use a 6qt pan. You can probably get away with a stock 3 core 26in factory rad and a shroud with the viscious fan package. If not then you can upgrade to an aluminum crossflow rad later...but i would try the stock stuff first. :Twocents:
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on December 12, 2007, 07:56:27 PM
No need for an oil cooler as longas you use a 6qt pan. You can probably get away with a stock 3 core 26in factory rad and a shroud with the viscious fan package. If not then you can upgrade to an aluminum crossflow rad later...but i would try the stock stuff first. :Twocents:
Ron
I run a stock(but recored) 3 core radiator, factory shroud,and viscious fan package with my 505 stroker gine. It runs consistantly at about 175 degrees even when its hot outside. :coolgleamA:
Quote from: 1hot68 on December 13, 2007, 05:46:50 PM
I run a stock(but recored) 3 core radiator, factory shroud,and viscious fan package with my 505 stroker gine. It runs consistantly at about 175 degrees even when its hot outside. :coolgleamA:
Do
you think I should replace the stock radiator & fan?
Quote from: joflaig on December 13, 2007, 07:20:45 PM
Quote from: 1hot68 on December 13, 2007, 05:46:50 PM
I run a stock(but recored) 3 core radiator, factory shroud,and viscious fan package with my 505 stroker gine. It runs consistantly at about 175 degrees even when its hot outside. :coolgleamA:
Do you think I should replace the stock radiator & fan?
um, no I would run the stock stuff myself , just make sure its all in good condition. :2thumbs:
I'm not building this engine myself and some things like gasktets and hoses and clips, etc, the shop may have on hand or be able to pick up quick. So what I'm just trying to do is gather the big, expensive and important pieces before the engine goes to the shop so that once they have it they're not "waiting on parts".
So far I have the Engle Cam, 512 Stroker Kit from 440 Source, and a 10" TA torque converter (I'll let the shop pick a new flex plate and tranny hardware). I've also got the MSD 6al ignition and Blaster II coil.
SO, Before I order what I've outlined below through Summit I just want to make sure I have the right parts picked out. I am going with Edelbrock Performer RPM 84cc Heads (which the shop will build).
1. Holley Street Dominator Intake Manifold (low rise single plane) - Part # HLY-300-14
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=HLY%2D300%2D14&autoview=sku
Extra parts:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=HLY%2D300%2D14&view=64&N=700+115
Should I get all the extra recommend parts Summit lists? Seems I might as well.
2. Proform 950hp carb - Part # PRO-67202
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PRO%2D67202&view=1&N=700+
Do I need anything from here or is this stuff the shop can easily get:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PRO%2D67202&view=64&N=700+
(keep in mind they are starting with a fully built and functional stock engine and not just a block or something)
3. MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan - Part# DCC-4529884
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DCC%2D4529884&N=700+400172+115&autoview=sku
4. MP stroker Windage Tray
There are a number of them on Summit, but not sure which one works with that oil pan and which will work with the stroker kit???
The list looks good !
(1) The SD manifold is perfect....get the 1215 intake gasket and the ARP bolts (optional)
(2) Proform 950hp is perfect.....get a dual feed line and the 20-7 bracket adapter which is a mopar specific piece. I would also suggest a carb insulating gasket which is about 3/8in thick and prevents fuel boiling in the hot summer months.
(3) The perfect oiling system is in the link below. Mancini carries everything you need and their pan & Pickup set is only $159.00. Of course you will need a different windage tray to accomodate the increased stroke.
windage tray :
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopbrb415str1.html
The rest in here :
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,38359.0.html
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 17, 2008, 11:39:17 PM
The list looks good !
Awesome, thanks Ron. I basically ordered everything you suggested. I wonder why Mancini's oil system stuff is so much cheaper than Summit. From what I've seen Summit is usually cheapest.
Well that shopping trip set me back about 1200. If I had to guess I'd say that with rebuilding the tranny included this whole deal, with labor, will probably end up between 8 to 10k. Parts look to be 60-70% and labor the remainder.
I hadn't been planning on it, but after reading HemiDoug's "hook for x-mas" thread and then digging into it some more I now have mp sub-frame connectors, QA1 shocks, and a Slide a link set and new ESPO springs in boxes in my bedroom!
So I guess it just wouldn't be right now If I didn't get a pair of slicks after all this trouble too.
Thank god for credit cards!
Quote from: joflaig on January 18, 2008, 09:37:36 AM
Awesome, thanks Ron. I basically ordered everything you suggested. I wonder why Mancini's oil system stuff is so much cheaper than Summit. From what I've seen Summit is usually cheapest.
Mancini's been doing the mopar thing since ... um... before anybody heard of Summit. Mancini used to and probably still does dropship for Summit.
Yeah, I was just on the phone with them to place an order. I've never ordered anything from them, but have talked to them a few times. They are always a little grouchy sounding on the phone. What the guy just told me was with a 4.250" stroke that their 6 qt Hemi oil pan probably won't work perfectly. He said I'd need to use this windage tray:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopbrb415str1.html
and also I think he said something about using two gaskets? BUT, the first thing out of his mouth when I told him 440 -> 512, 4.250" stroke was to go with a Miloden pan.
As usual, you ask 5 different people and you get five different answers! Not sure what to do with this particular detail now.
I am following you lead and building the same stroker you are right now. Taking the block to the machine shop tommorrow. I have the same question about the windage tray from Mopar. Will it work? It looks like it won"t work for the 512 stroker???
Quote from: joflaig on January 18, 2008, 10:05:49 AM
Yeah, I was just on the phone with them to place an order. I've never ordered anything from them, but have talked to them a few times. They are always a little grouchy sounding on the phone. What the guy just told me was with a 4.250" stroke that their 6 qt Hemi oil pan probably won't work perfectly. He said I'd need to use this windage tray:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopbrb415str1.html
and also I think he said something about using two gaskets? BUT, the first thing out of his mouth when I told him 440 -> 512, 4.250" stroke was to go with a Miloden pan.
As usual, you ask 5 different people and you get five different answers! Not sure what to do with this particular detail now.
If you look at my response above it showed a link to the MP stroker windage tray and i stated that this would need to be substituted for the part i listed in Bulls thread :
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 17, 2008, 11:39:17 PM
windage tray : http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopbrb415str1.html
For a build like yours the MP 6qt hemi pan is fine and yes it will clear a 4.25 stroke crank. The 440 Source 512 stroker kits use a 2.20 rod pin dimension which actually has more internal clearance than the 4.15 stroke that uses the factory 2.375 dimension. :yesnod:
In a nutshell : The bigger stroke doesn't necessarily mean there will be problems....in fact the smaller 2.20 rod journals create
more internal clearance as compared to the 4.15/2.375 (493 ci) rotating assembly. Bare in mind that the MP stroker tray was designed for the 493 rotating assembly. ;)
The Hemi pan is well baffled and oil control is a non issue. It also holds close to 7 qt's with a filter which is plenty, inmo. The huge bonus, especially for a street car is that the pan is protected by the K-frame. The Milidon low profile 7qt pan hangs below the k-frame and if you're not careful it will get dented or worse...ripped clean off. Speed bumps, pot holes...you name it....they all suck ! :lol:
Ron
Quote from: 2harleyriders on January 18, 2008, 09:50:02 PM
I am following you lead and building the same stroker you are right now. Taking the block to the machine shop tommorrow. I have the same question about the windage tray from Mopar. Will it work? It looks like it won"t work for the 512 stroker???
See above ;)
Ron
Milodon after several years and several thousand miles of abuse... I got my PS steering box is out right now.
Ok, sorry if I sound confused, just want to make I have it absolutely right! You are saying go with the MP hemi 6qt:
MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan - Part# DCC-4529884
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DCC%2D4529884&N=700+400172+115&autoview=sku
AND for the windage tray this MOPAR - "B/RB" - PArt #MOP-P4120998:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/moparbrb1.html
Right?
Quote from: joflaig on January 21, 2008, 11:14:00 AM
Ok, sorry if I sound confused, just want to make I have it absolutely right! You are saying go with the MP hemi 6qt:
MP Hemi 6qt Oil Pan - Part# DCC-4529884
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DCC%2D4529884&N=700+400172+115&autoview=sku
AND for the windage tray this MOPAR - "B/RB" - PArt #MOP-P4120998:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/moparbrb1.html
Right?
The oilpan is correct but the windage tray is wrong....the one you linked to is for a stock 440 (3.75in stroke).
This one will work....4.15in stroker crank windage tray :
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopbrb415str1.html
Ron
Ah, thank you so much Ron, I'd be stuck without you! :cheers:
Incdidently, as I pointed out a few posts I ago I have been expecting something to go wrong and sure enough FedEx had delivered my 440 source crank and affiliated parts to a house two blocks a away and on a different street, but with the same street number. Of course this stuff weighs so much the owner of the house didn't bother trying to get it inside and it was sitting on on their front steps for two days. Thank goodness nobody walked off with them. I suspect now when we pull the heads off the block instead of a stock bore it will be 60 over!
Quote from: joflaig on January 21, 2008, 11:35:36 AM
Ah, thank you so much Ron, I'd be stuck without you! :cheers:
Incdidently, as I pointed out a few posts I go I have been expecting something to go wrong and sure enough FedEx had delivered my 440 source crank and affiliated parts to a house two blocks a away and on a different street, but with the same street number. Of course this stuff weighs so much the owner of the house didn't bother trying to get it inside and it was sitting on on their front steps for two days. Thank goodness nobody walked off with them. I suspect now when we pull the heads off the block instead of a stock bore it will be 60 over!
You're welcome Joe.
Hopefully the Fedex glitch is your biggest problem....think positive buddy ! :2thumbs:
Ron
Ps. Dang shame about those Packers....what an awesome season they had. Lets hope Brett comes back next season for another run at it. :icon_smile_cool:
That's a taboo subject! I will not watch TV or read the papers for a least a week. I had to medicate myself this morning.
Just back from the shop. They've got the engine and tranny out and will be taking them to the engine place tomorrow. Now that the bay is mostly empty it's easier to see some of the body issues that were previously hard to judge. The main problem is with the left frame rail. There were dime size holes and pitting in a section about 5 inches long right in the middle of the rail right where the k-member starts. The shop cut out the rot so there is now a rectangular hole on one side about 1" x 5". The outside face of the rail, kind of in the area where shock is also has some smallish holes and is thin in spots. They said they thought there seemed to be the remains of a mouse nest.
What they propose is to clean up the metal as best they can put some crap inside to prevent rusting, weld some pieces into the holes they cut out, and then weld steel plates around the whole area to give it back it's strength.
This would probably not involve taking out the k-member. Also this is the only rot on the entire front end, basically. Not sure why?!
I suspect it would be a lot more expenisve to either replace the whole frame rail or cut out a big section and put in a portion of a new frame rail.
Any opinions? They are going to email some pics later (I hope!).
To me, a 1x5 patch would be no big deal....install the new metal and go with it. :2thumbs:
Ron
That's what I figured I'd do. They suggested I box in the other frame rail even though there is no corrosion. I don't see the need for it, so I'm not sure where the suggest comes from :shruggy: .
It's funny I had half joked with them about a line locker a few months ago, and I guess they thought I wasn't kidding and ordered a Hurst unit. I don't "need" it, but I guess I'll keep it anyhow. ;)
I had a nightmare last night that my transmission wasn't really a 727 and when the heads came off the bore was way over stock and I had to deal with sending the balanced crank and pistons kit back to 440 source!
Well, today I feel like a guy who didn't know if his girlfriend was a virgin or not and just found out. :o
The engine builder tore it apart and we're looking at a .060 bore. :rotz:
Well I was assured the block had a standard bore, but I guess I made the big newbie mistake of ordering the stroker kit before knowing for sure. 440 Source will not take returns of course. I can either sell the stroker kit and try and find something that works at this bore or sell my block and get something to work with the kit! :brickwall: :flame: :'(
Right now, I'm just leaning toward a new block. Aside of trying to make a 512 stroker work with it, I mean if I ever rebuilt a .060 block down the road, I'm kind of limited. If I go for it, my builder may be able to set me up since he's the only mopar engine shop around and is surely plugged in.
However, looking around I'm seeing prices all over for the spectrum. I know MP has a bad rep on the hemi, what about their 440 blocks? Is $1500-2000 a reasonable guess on the cost for a re-conditioned "original" 440? Are there certain years I should avoid? My block was from a '71.
Another thing to think about. Maybe talk to your builder about sleeving your motor. Then you can use everything you have now and KNOW you have a serious block with no more core shift issues. :scratchchin:
Quote from: Steve P. on January 28, 2008, 04:01:54 PM
Another thing to think about. Maybe talk to your builder about sleeving your motor. Then you can use everything you have now and KNOW you have a serious block with no more core shift issues. :scratchchin:
Good point, I totally forgot about that. What are the typical pros and cons here?
This wasn't even something 440 Source suggested and the guy there was very helpful (while telling me no returns!), wonder why?
The pro's:
You can go back to stock piston size or to a comfortable size bore.
If your motor has core any shift it can be corrected. (aligning the cylinders).
Much stronger cylinder wall.
Will help keep your water temp down.
Way less chance of a cylinder cracking.
The cons:
Only one I can think of, cost. :scratchchin:
My :Twocents:
Quote from: Steve P. on January 28, 2008, 04:55:21 PM
The cons:
Only one I can think of, cost. :scratchchin:
Gee that sounds like a no brainer. I am already spending a small fortune. How much more could this run?
I'm trying to think what possible issue there could be doing this with the stroker kit, but I can't think of one.
I just asked a buddy what it cost him to do (1) sleeve in his 440. He said it was $130.00 for the one. Set up is the big time issue. I think it's cheaper per hole for multiple or in your case all 8. I would ask your machinist.
I don't remember now if you said it is a matching numbers motor or not. If it is then I think I would just pull the motor and put it under the bench. Find a good 440 that has not been bored and go from there.
:Twocents:
Quote from: Steve P. on January 28, 2008, 06:34:44 PM
I don't remember now if you said it is a matching numbers motor or not. If it is then I think I would just pull the motor and put it under the bench. Find a good 440 that has not been bored and go from there.
No, it's '71 -- not matching.
I think I can stomach the cost. It's less than a new block by a lot and it sounds like there are some real pro's.
I might be mistaken, but I don't recall seeing many builds here using sleeves -- and I mean by default for all the good reasons not as a last resort, sort of like for me. I am reading up on it, but is it more of a racing application?
Maybe not all, but MOST major racers use sleeved motors. ALL aluminum motors are sleeved. Anyone that is BLUEPRINT crazy will normally sleeve a motor.
I bought a 440 last year from an ebay seller for $112.70 . The ad said, (Local pick up only). Since it was in south Florida I knew it would go cheap. ( No one wants to drive down into Florida to pick up parts. Just those of us who live here). I got the block with caps and a forged crank for that price. I then took all to the machine shop and cleaned and checked the motor for cracks and run out. NO cracks and only .003 taper in the cylinders. BUT, that's not a deal you will find every day. Oh yeah, the crank is also perfect. :2thumbs: What a deal...
Sounds like the jackpot. I guess it can be a real crap shoot. I feel better now at least.
I would look for another block. :yesnod:
Here's a good deal from a very reputable shop in the midwest. The block is available in your choice of bore diameters and it comes all machined and ready to go. Square decked, finish honed, align bored, sonic checked, new cam bearings, main studs, as well as having the lifter bores bushed and the geometry corrected (that alone is a $500 maching bill). You would be doing most of this stuff to your block anyway....
https://chenowethspeedandmachine.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=218&osCsid=9474efcff8fbe97a3b79163f2677569e
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 28, 2008, 08:43:59 PM
I would look for another block. :yesnod:
I take it this comment is based on the viewpoint of cost perespective? Sleeving what I have in itself wouldn't seem to have any technical disadvantage. The builder did say the block was "recently rebuilt". I don't know if that could have any bearing on machining costs, but when I go there tomorrow morning I will certainly find out his opinion.
Quote from: joflaig on January 28, 2008, 10:27:00 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 28, 2008, 08:43:59 PM
I would look for another block. :yesnod:
I take it this comment is based on the viewpoint of cost perespective?
Basicly yes. Print off a copy of the link i posted above with all the machining done and hand it to your builder...see what he says it will cost to do this to your block and install the 8 sleeves. You'll have your answer then.
Ron
Well, I spent almost an hour with the builder this morning. They had cleaned the block and were in the middle of doing a magnaflux when I got there. From a few feet away it looked great all in gray like that. However, not only is it bored .060 over, but as it turns out there are long hairline cracks in the valley. The lines certainly didn't require a magnaflux to see. To weld them and put 8 sleeves in the holes to get down to .030, which is what I need, makes absolutely no sense. Forgeting the cracks, even using 8 sleeves was nuts, according to the builder because a new block is cheaper.
So I'm getting a new block.
They have a couple shelves with a half dozen or more 440 & 426 blocks ready for rebuilding. 440-wise, there was a '66, a '68 and a couple of '72s I could pick from. I'm taking one of the '72s. From what I understand it should be a stronger block. He guarantees no cracks. I am having them sonic check it. The cost is $800 bucks -- and of course we still have to clean it up and machine it. This may still be less than buying a machined block from Chenoweth down in Illinois -- especially since I can't do a core exchange.
My old block is basically good for scrap. The shop didn't even want it. The old 452 heads, pistons & rods, and crank are, however, in fine shape and I guess I'll try and sell them. They thought the crank was worth at least a few hundred.
When I bought this car early last year the engine was advertised as being newly rebuilt. My builder observered that it looked like a recent 'NAPA parts rebuild'. I'm certain those cracks in the block were there at the time of sale. It must have been a completely half-assed build. I don't get it. And I wonder if I can make a claim against the seller (I can at least tell you what dealer in St. Louis to avoid if you happen to be buying there). I suppose at 375-400 HP these hairline cracks might not matter (for a time, anyway)?
At any rate, the builder was impressed at the parts that I had brought in, the choices made (thanks Ron, and everyone). I would imagine engine builders like to control everything and get annoyed when people bring in boxes of mismatched parts from swapmeets. Some suggestions he had are:
-Ultimate Sprag gear for the transmission
-replace stock balancer with Fluid Damper
-Use the Comp roller rockers (and Comp chrome moly push rods and lifters)
I guess the fluid damper would be the most controversial.
He said he didn't like the Be Cool radiators because they don't fit perfectly and suggested ordering a custom measured aluminum rad from Mancini. He said not to bother with an external trans cooler since I won't be racing that much and also felt a conventional fan with an aluminum shroud from Mancini would be fine. I got the sense he wasn't to hot on electric fans (of course, my resto shop recommends dual electric Spal fans). Lastly, he recommended what is now Brad Penn motor oil (w/zinc) -- it used to be Kendall.
I always get an education visiting these guys.
Finally, I asked them how much HP this thing as going to make and he said between 600-650 (500 at the tires) which is much more than I expected. I was thinking 550 or at the most 575 at the crank. At any rate, after they break it in the engine will go to the dyno so I will know for sure.
And just to recap, here is my latest build list (it's changed a bit):
---------------------------------------------
Use: Primarily street/highway, few times a year at the strip
Desire: power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy, fits stock hood, room for future growth (porting heads, etc)
Note: Car has power breaks, 275/60/15 rear tires
Block:
• Sonic checked, pressure test, cleaned, .030 overbored, honed, decked, align honed, squared
Engine:
Compression Ratio: 10 - 10.5:1
• 512ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source (4.25" stroke/7.100" rod), balanced crank, -17 CC dished pistons, 1.480" Compression Height
• 440 Source Billet Steel Main Caps & ARP studs
• ATI elastomer style damper
• Holley Street Dominator Intake Manifold (low rise single plane) - Part# HLY-300-14
o Felpro 1215 intake gasket, valley pan
o ARP bolts
• Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads 84cc,
o Comp Pro-Magnum Roller Rockers
o Comp Heavy Duty Chrome Moly Pushrods
o Comp "stock" Springs
o Comp Lifters
• ProForm 950hp Carburetor - Part# PRO-67202
o Dual Feed Line
o 20-7 Bracket Adapter
o Carb insulating Gasket (3/8in)
o 3" drop Base Air Cleaner (K&N)
• MP Hemi Oil Pan - Part# DCC-4529884
o 3/8 pickup
• MP 4.150 in. Stroker / 500ci Windage Tray - Part# DCC-5007345
• Engle Hydraulic Cam (k62 intake lobe/ k64 exhaust)
o 294/298 advertised running duration
o 244/250 duration @ .050
o .540/.557 valve lift
o 110* lsa
o 3 bolt flank
• 160-180 Thermostat
• 3 Bolt Timing Chain
• 2" TTI Headers
Transmission::
• New or rebuilt Clutch plates & bands
• 10" Street "S-800" Series Torque Converter (Tight) Part #17805ST (2800 stall - 3400 stall range)
• B&M Heavy duty Flex Plate (holes must be for 7/16 bolts with flat heads to work with convertor)
• ARP hardware
• Shift Kit
• NEW Speedo Gear (8.75 rear w/3.54 gears, 275/60/15 rear tires)
Misc:
• MP Distribtor
• Clay Smith or Carter 120gph mechanical Fuel Pump (which is better?)
• Fuel pump pushrod
• High volume Oil Pump
• Hardened Oil Pump Drive
• MSD 6al Ignition (6000 rmp rev limiter)
• MSD Blaster Coil 2
Wow,, that's a damn shame about the block. I think 800 sounds rather pricey for a bare block. I recently overheard an engine shop by me say they pay $350.00 for cores from the bone yard.
Why are you going with a 3/8th oil pick up? That monster will need all the oil it can get. I would go to a 1/2 inch pick up like the Hemi's use.
My other question goes to the Fluid damper balancer. I am not the best person on the subject, but I know many here and my machinist don't like them.
What price did they give you for 8 sleeves?? I'm interested in the comparo...
Yeah, it's a shame. It cost me a few bucks in labor just to get to the point where they could tell me for sure the block was no good.
For the $800 the block comes magna fluxed (and a few other things I'm forgetting). They guarantee no cracks. And of course there is no shipping cost. He didn't even quote me for the sleeves. It seemed to be something he couldn't even imagine doing.
I'm only going of others' advice on the 3/8 pickup. The builder made no comment on that. I have to wonder, though, if he did disagree with some of the less pricey details if he would just change them to his preference. Would an expirienced engine builder nessesarily bother telling their far less knowledgable customer that they are switching to a 1/2" pickup? I did make it clear I want to document everything.
As for the Fluid damper balancer I'm simply trusting his opinion. I'm not the expert on that either. Of course it will take a month before I see my new engine and rebuilt tranny so I have some time to change some details if need be.
Pics of the block... what do you guys think? Someone said these are cracks are from leaving water in it and freezing. How could you tell? Woud it be from not using a 50/50 mix and letting it sit for years or something?
Parts I will sell. WIW? I already have an offer on the crank, but don't know how much to let it go for?!
My biggest problem (NOT)! ;D
Sorry to hear about the block.....better to find out now rather than later. :P I agree with the builder/machinist....sleeving 8 cylinders is rediculously expensive. The only way i would ever consider something like that would be if it was a numbers matching block and it was going to be an OE style restoration. It's a moot point anyway because the block is cracked. You should forward those pics to the dealer you bought the car from and see what he says. ::)
As for the oiling system ; the 3/8in pickup is fine, inmo. This is a cruiser type build that will be running a hydraulic cam. If you were planning on drag racing, running a solid cam and spinning it to 6500 every weekend then i could see the point. I know many who race just fine with the stock 3/8in pickup week in and week out and have no issues. With good oil control (baffled pan/windage tray) you'll be fine. I would have him set the rod and main clearances at .0025 to allow for thermal expansion.
On the Dampner ; I'm not a fan of the fluid balancers. The elastomer style dampners work well and have never let me down. A friend of mine has seen a couple of busted cranks due to the fluid dampner and will not use them anymore. I trust his opinion on this. :yesnod:
The price for that block seems reasonable given that it's been magged and looked over closely. The builder seems like a stand up guy so work with him on this. He has a vested interest in seeing this project through to your satisfaction....i doubt he will sell you junk given the magnitude of this build. ;)
The Comp pro-magnum rockers are excellent...you can't go wrong there. :2thumbs:
Looking forward to the progress pics and the dyno tune ! :icon_smile_cool:
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 29, 2008, 09:18:43 PM
On the Dampner ; I'm not a fan of the fluid balancers. The elastomer style dampners work well and have never let me down. A friend of mine has seen a couple of busted cranks due to the fluid dampner and will not use them anymore. I trust his opinion on this. :yesnod:
I don't want to open the debate on this one, and I'm not an expert to have my own opinion, but your view does seems to be in the majority everywhere I've read so far.
Well I got a lot of comments on the $800 price tag on the block so I talked to the machinist again just to double check. This does including the cleaning and magnafluxing. The particular block is at the standard bore. He was really not enthusiastic about doing a sonic check. He doesn't own the tools either and borrows them when he does need them. He was, of course, confident about the block and emphasised that we're only taking it to .030. He said a quarter of the blocks he picks up at swap meets end up in the trash. Sounds like they are pretty careful about what they use. I know opinions would differ on whether I should press on with this or not.
Anyhow for what I'm getting $800 seems pretty fair to me especially with no shipping or pick up cost.
We're switching to an ATI elastomer dampner. They are not cheap!
I emailed the outfit where I picked up this car last April. Keep in mind I did have it professionally inspected first. And to find these cracks in the block one would have had to have removed the intake manifold. And the engine was running fine. This was from their original ad:
"Sporting a fresh drivetrain with only 250 to 300 miles on it".
Based on what my machinist says about the condition of the pistons they may not have lied about it being newly rebuilt, but why on earth would someone have kept that block unless it was for the worst reasons?!
Here's what the dealer said (I was very polite in my coorespondence with them):
"You may proceed how ever you feel is best but there will be no concessions made on the part of XXX. We had no way of knowing the block was in that condition and you have now had the vehicle for quite sometime now. I am sure you are aware that there is no way for you to prove that the damage was a condition that existed on or before the purchase date. Maybe you didn't have the antifreeze mixture right and the block got damaged while in your possession... there are just too many variables here. I have been in this business for quite sometime now and can tell you that this kind of stuff is just part of the old car game. If you cant deal with it then you are in the wrong hobby. In the past year alone, we have had to replace 3 motors and at least half a dozen transmissions due to failure while vehicles were in our possession. Not ONCE did we go back to the sellers and ask for anything. My suggestion would be to buy a well done crate motor with a warranty and get the car back on the road. Chasing after [us] for something will be a waste of time and effort, that I can assure you."
:shruggy:
2 crappy thing here.
1) He's right. It will more than likely be a complete waste of time and money going after them.
2) He handled it like a bully. :rotz:
Quote from: Steve P. on January 30, 2008, 01:48:04 PM
2 crappy thing here.
1) He's right. It will more than likely be a complete waste of time and money going after them.
2) He handled it like a bully. :rotz:
Ultimately they do sell the cars "as is", no warranty. However, there is something called truth in advertisng. If you're going to advertise the engine like that, well...I'm not a lawyer. I could always refer it to the BBB, I suppose.
Quote from: joflaig on January 30, 2008, 11:59:05 AM
Here's what the dealer said (I was very polite in my coorespondence with them):
"You may proceed how ever you feel is best but there will be no concessions made on the part of XXX. We had no way of knowing the block was in that condition and you have now had the vehicle for quite sometime now. I am sure you are aware that there is no way for you to prove that the damage was a condition that existed on or before the purchase date. Maybe you didn't have the antifreeze mixture right and the block got damaged while in your possession... there are just too many variables here. I have been in this business for quite sometime now and can tell you that this kind of stuff is just part of the old car game. If you cant deal with it then you are in the wrong hobby. In the past year alone, we have had to replace 3 motors and at least half a dozen transmissions due to failure while vehicles were in our possession. Not ONCE did we go back to the sellers and ask for anything. My suggestion would be to buy a well done crate motor with a warranty and get the car back on the road. Chasing after [us] for something will be a waste of time and effort, that I can assure you."
:shruggy:
What a bunch of a-holes. No way of knowing the block was in that condition.....WTF, who assembled the motor, a blind man ! Gimme a break !
Those shitheads had to have seen those cracks....they just pressure tested the block and since it didn't leak they said what the hell and assembled it. His tone sucks....he's basicly challenging you to prove it. If you don't like it maybe you need to get another hobby....what kind of bullshit answer is that ! :o I'd be driving down there and launching that block through his front window :D
Typical car flipper attitude....no morals and even less class :brickwall:
I feel for ya man....it's not right !
Mally just found out he got hosed on a set of cylinder heads he had rebuilt....parts he paid for and labor he was told had been done...were NOT. I just don't know what to say when i read this crap.....
Ron
That's what I thought. They saw the cracks and probably said to hell with it and rebuilt it anyway for the worst cynical reasons. Had the cracks been anywhere else they might have been easily spotted.
Like I said, if anyone is buying a car in the St. Louis area, just PM me first.
I'm not even sure I will reply to them. My thoughts go from ignoring it to much, much worse.
OK, totally unrelated now to all this crap...
I don't think I've brought it before, but I'm curious what kind of #s this build will bring. I have a rough idea based on all the similar builds posted here. However, I've been getting opinions that really vary (on the HP anyway). It's been from 500hp to 650hp. I'd be shocked to see anything over 600hp. So any guesses? There will no porting done on the heads or intake, just "clean up".
Quote from: joflaig on January 31, 2008, 01:36:53 PM
I'd be shocked to see anything over 600hp.
So would I ;)
With stock unported E-heads and a cam that mild it's more likely to make in the 540hp range but it will make a butt load of torque ! :icon_smile_big: I would be expecting ~ 600 ftlbs of tire twisting fun out of your build. :icon_smile_cool:
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 01, 2008, 08:08:28 PM
Quote from: joflaig on January 31, 2008, 01:36:53 PM
I'd be shocked to see anything over 600hp.
So would I ;)
With stock unported E-heads and a cam that mild it's more likely to make in the 540hp range but it will make a butt load of torque ! :icon_smile_big: I would be expecting ~ 600 ftlbs of tire twisting fun out of your build. :icon_smile_cool:
Ron
Yup, based on everything I've read that sounds more like it.
It's funny, even when you say it's mostly street, the guys on moparts can't help but tell you what to change so you can get to 600+ hp. :lol:
It's tempting to get to high hp sickness, but you've got to remember your original goals.
Quote from: joflaig on February 01, 2008, 08:17:39 PM
It's tempting to get to high hp sickness, but you've got to remember your original goals.
Absolutely ! Stick with the plan and trust me....you'll be plenty happy. :icon_smile_big:
600 ftlbs is gonna shock you the first time you drop the hammer ! :o Torque rules on the street !!!! :2thumbs:
This engine will idle nice and smooth and be a joy to tune....bigger horsepower comes at the expense of idle quality and street manners. ;)
Ron
PICS coming wednesaday!
They've finished decking the block and doing the align bore. They are doing some mockups and by midweek should have the rotating assembly in. It sounds like it was a bit of job to machine the main caps. I went with the billet steel from 440 -- yes I know, overkill.
Good news is they didn't find anything wrong with the 727 in the process of tear down.
A local buddy just had the 440 Source steel caps done in a motor and his machinist sort of gave him hell for the amount of steel he had to remove too.. Hey, they will work on smaller cranks as well. Why not make just one size? The machine shop is getting paid, RIGHT!! :shruggy: It's not like you brought him a huge block of solid steel and said, MAKE ME A 440... ;)
By the way, I LOVE OVERKILL..... :2thumbs:
Looking forward to seeing some pics :icon_smile_big:
Overkill can be a good thing :cheers:
For what it's worth I had emailed Brandon awhile back asking if he was going to make 383/400 and 440 caps instead of just the one size fits all to save people on the machining costs.
I'm still waiting ::)
I asked them that last month when I got them. It didn't sound promising.
I visited the engine shop this morning. You can see the progress in the pics below. The machinist told me it took half a day just to do the align bore since those billet steel main caps have so much extra flesh on them.
I ordered the stroker kit from 440 Source balanced and it seemed like the shop would have prefered to do this themselves, which I can kind of understand. Anyway, they had the bob weight sheet that 440 Source provided. When they weighed the pistons (I think it was just the pistons, not w/rods) they found 1 gram or less difference between them (1 ounce = 28.35 grams). At any rate, they didn't do any extra machining. Someone told me that over 2 grams of weight difference would matter more, especially at higher RPMs. This thing will have the rev limiter set at 6000. So did 440 Source do a good job here? Sounds like it to me. :shruggy:
I asked them to paint the block hemi orange and to leave the dampener alone. Is the material making up the MP oil pan ok to leave unpainted or not?
Other thing to mention was that they want to go with a Felpro 1009 head gasket. Based on what I've read that should be ok.
I guess next week sometime they will be done and it's off to the Dyno the following week. I will be visiting the engine shop one more time to see the thing run, though, first.
I keep reading that the ProForm 950 doesn't need much tuning out of the box. For a layman like myself are there any knowledgeable sounding points I should know to make so that these guys don't setup the carb as though it were for pure drag racing (the shop owner runs a 200mph '62 Polara)?
If any of you guys and your highly trained eyes sees anything amiss in the pics, please let me know! Thanks.
What does the "-10" in the casting numbers mean?
Some more... How's it look?
Here's some shots of my Granny Grocer Go-Getter column shift interior which I also took today as I happened to be visiting the car at the resto shop as well. It's funny, I took the car in last August to put in the seats and roll cage and now it's February and the only thing in the drivetrain I haven't replaced or rebuilt or restored is the gas tank.
Other than the date on the block, that thing looks just like my gine did at that point. NICE!!!
Quote from: 1hot68 on February 13, 2008, 08:36:01 PM
Other than the date on the block, that thing looks just like my gine did at that point. NICE!!!
I had a choice of a 72 block or a 68 and took the 72. I know you could argue endlessly about which might stronger. Anyway a 68 block is probably more valuable to someone trying to do a matching year engine.
Quote from: joflaig on February 13, 2008, 08:42:55 PM
Quote from: 1hot68 on February 13, 2008, 08:36:01 PM
Other than the date on the block, that thing looks just like my gine did at that point. NICE!!!
I had a choice of a 72 block or a 68 and took the 72. I know you could argue endlessly about which might stronger. Anyway a 68 block is probably more valuable to someone trying to do a matching year engine.
Thats definitely not what I'm arguing .....My block is a 76 model. :2thumbs: I also don't buy into that some years are better thing. :Twocents:
That block is CLEAN.
Did that thing just come out of it's casting? Nice. :D
Quote from: Rack on February 13, 2008, 09:13:30 PM
That block is CLEAN.
Did that thing just come out of it's casting? Nice. :D
I like hearing that after what happened to the last one! I guess the guy at the shop said he scours the big swap meets we have here and actually ends up chucking a quarter of what he buys.
Hot Damn that shortblock looks nice ! :boogie:
As for the balance job....2 grams is nuthin to be concerned about. ;)
I would use the Proform 950 right out of the box for the cam/engine breakin and the first few pulls. The jetting should be dead nuts perfect with your mild build, inmo. Once they've made a few power pulls the A/F ratios can be looked at and adjustments made...if need be. I don't think the carb will need any tweaking but the dyno is the place to do it.
Tell them to start off with 16* initial and 35* total on the timing....the total should be in by 2500-2800 rpm. ;)
I'm happy for ya buddy !!! :2thumbs:
Ron
Thanks Ron, I could not have got this far without your help! :notworthy:
They have not set the timing yet so I will introduce that topic when I next speak with them.
I have to say, this experience must be similar to what it's like when you become a first-time father. :icon_smile_big:
It's looking great... The only trouble I'm having with it is jealousy... ;)
Quote from: Steve P. on February 13, 2008, 09:38:18 PM
It's looking great... The only trouble I'm having with it is jealousy... ;)
IF you knew how much I was spending you might not be so jealous! ;)
If you knew how much I spend keeping my kids afloat you would be happy to pay the piper.... ;)
Quote from: Steve P. on February 13, 2008, 09:45:39 PM
If you knew how much I spend keeping my kids afloat you would be happy to pay the piper.... ;)
touche!
Joflaig, i can't remember if sparkplugs were discussed so here's my suggestion : NGK bcp(r)-6es...work great with the e-heads at 10.5:1 or so compression. No fouling & a nice even spark. ;)
Ron
Ps. You're welcome for the help :2thumbs:
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 14, 2008, 07:15:01 AM
Joflaig, i can't remember if sparkplugs were discussed so here's my suggestion : NGK bcp(r)-6es...work great with the e-heads at 10.5:1 or so compression. No fouling & a nice even spark. ;)
That was on my list, but I wasn't sure what to go with. Thanks I will mention this to the builder.
Engine is complete and going on to the stand for break-in as I speak. They'll call me later for an update and I will be seeing it run for myself tomorrow morning then it's off to the Dyno. I hope to get the numbers next week sometime.
After the standard 20 minute break-in on the engine stand and a change of oil, assuming no problems, a few pulls on the dyno a week later at 6000rpm should be no concern, right?
I'm sure if they have a break in stand at the shop it will have all the gauges to tell them what is going on with the motor. I wouldn't worry at all.. ;)
Breakin on the stand is fine....but have them optimize the tuneup while it's on the dyno. Start with the stock jetting in the Proform carb and the timing we discussed earlier to baseline the motor. The A/F ratios can be verified and corrected on the dyno if need be and they can make some adjustments to the total advance to see what makes the best power. It should be in the 35* total timing range from my experience with similar builds using flattop pistons and closed chamber aluminum heads. Get copies of the dyno sheets as well for future reference. ;)
Make plans to be there when it's dynoed and ask questions & observe. :2thumbs:
Ron
I will surely be there when they do the dyno pulls.
The pistons are -17 CC dished pistons.
The engine builder said he was thinking 18* initial timing at idle, 18* swing, 36* total advance, with the total in by 2800 rpm. He's using Autolite 3924 spark plugs. I did end up with an MSD distributor for a complete MSD ignition.
I look forward to seeing this fricken thing run tomorrow, but it also means I get the bill.
Is there any special mods needed for the throttle linkage with this carb?
I made it to the shop today, but didn't get to see it run, will have to wait until Monday, but below are some pics.
The machinist did some "clean up" on the heads and intake, specifically, push rod hump, bowl blending, cleaning up manifold w/porting to match gaskets. He said he thought I should get 20-30 extra hp with the improved flow. They seemed to think the SD really needed a lot of work in particular.
This stuff ring true?
a few more...
It shooooooooor is purdy... :cheers:
Can't wait to hear the numbers... :scratchchin:
Looks nice ! :2thumbs: It's odd that they routed the fuel line like that....it's installed backwards. Perhaps they did that because it was interfering with the distributor ? One thing i would do is install a 1in open spacer beneath the carb for added plenum volume and insulation from heat. This really helps in the summertime when engine's are prone to vapor lock. It will still clear the stock hood with a 1.25in drop base air cleaner assembly....K&N makes a 14x3 flo-thru top assembly that is ideal. ;)
The street Dominator is one of those manifolds that doesn't look like much compared to the racier M1 & Victor intakes but don't let the subtle appearance fool you.....it ROCKS ! :punkrocka:
Looking forward to the power numbers ! :drool5:
Make sure to get copies of the dyno sheets and once we have the data i will archive this thread in the proven combos forum ! :icon_smile_big:
Ron
The fuel line may just be set up that way for the test stand. Though I have seen a few set up that way on the street.. Too much heat in the fender/firewall corner in my opinion..
I finally got to see and hear that beast run today. Even with the mufflers it sounded fierce. Somehow I don't see myself practicing very good fuel economy with this thing...
My main advice to someone entering this process is to try and buy a lot of the parts yourself beforehand. You will find them cheaper than what the builder will charge. Thanks to the great advice I got here I was able to bring a carload of parts to the builder, but the little things that you don't get do add up.
Sometime in the next week I should be getting the #s from the dyno.
Below is the final list that includes most parts, but maybe not every little nut or bolt.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Use: Primarily street/highway, few times a year at the strip
Desire: power across the band, 11s at the strip, very low maintenance, reliability, *decent* fuel economy, fits stock hood, room for future growth (porting heads, etc)
Note: Car has power breaks, 275/60/15 rear tires
Block:
- 1972 440 block
- pressure tested, cleaned, magnafluxed
- .030 over bored
- squared decks, bore and deck plate honed, file fitted piston rings, honed lifter bores
Engine:
Compression Ratio: 10 - 10.5:1
- 512ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source (4.25" stroke/7.100" rod), balanced crank, -17 CC dished pistons, 1.480" Compression Height
- 440 Source Billet Steel Main Caps
- ARP studs
- ATI Super Damper Harmonic Balancer (elastomer style)
- Holley Street Dominator Intake Manifold (low rise single plane) - Part# HLY-300-14
- Fel-Pro 1215 intake gasket, valley pan
- ARP bolts
- Machining: gasket match intake porting
- Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads 84cc
- Comp Cams Pro Magnum Shaft Mount Roller Rocker Arms - Part# CCA-1321-16
- Comp Cams 3/8 .080 Wall Pushrod set
- Comp Cams "stock" springs
- Comp Cams Pro Magnum Hydraulic Lifters - Part# CCA-867-16
- Fel-Pro 1009 head gaskets
- Fel-Pro valve cover gaskets
- ARP head bolt, washer set
- Machining: push rod hump, bowl blending, intake "cleanup"
- ProForm 950hp Carburetor - Part# PRO-67202
- Dual Feed Line
- 20-7 Bracket Adapter
- Carb insulating Gasket (3/8in)
- Summit Phenolic 1" Carburetor Spacer - Part# SUM-G1405
- K&N X-Stream Air Flow Assembly, 1.25" drop base, 14 in. diameter, 3" filter height - Part# 66-3040
- MOPAR Hemi Oil Pan - Part# DCC-4529884
- 3/8 pickup
- Enlarged oil passage
- Fel-Pro 1834 gasket
- MOPAR 4.150 in. Stroker / 500ci Windage Tray - Part# DCC-5007345
- Engle Hydraulic Cam (k62 intake lobe/ k64 exhaust)
- 294/298 advertised running duration
- 244/250 duration @ .050
- .540/.557 valve lift
- 110* lsa
- 3 bolt flank
- Dura-Bond PDP-17 Cam Bearing set
- ARP Cam bolt kit
- 160 Thermostat
- 3 Bolt Double Roller Timing Chain
- Billet Gears w/ Torrington Bearing
- Edelbrock Victor Series Mechanical Water Pump – Part# EDL-8814
- Carter Hemi Fuel Pump
- Melling High Volume Oil Pump – Part# M63HV
- MOPAR Oil Pump Driveshaft Part # DCC-3571071
- MOPAR Oil Pump Pickup Part # DCC-5249817
- MOPAR Hemi Oil Dipstick (modified)
- Fel-Pro R.A.C.E. Gasket Set 2716
- Indy Billet Rear Seal Retainer
- Brass Block Plugs
Ignition:
- MSD Pro Billet Distributor
- MSD 6al Ignition (6000 RPM rev limiter) Part # MSD-6420
- MSD Blaster Coil 2 Part # MSD-8202
- Autolite 3924 Spark Plugs
- Taylor Spark plug wires
Exhaust:
- 2" TTI ceramic coated, polished headers w/ thermal barrier
- 3" TTI X pipe front and rear exhaust
- DynoMax Ultra Flo straight-though, offset-center mufflers - Part# WLK-17221 (2)
Transmission:
- 727 Torqueflite, 1966 casting
- 10" Street "S-800" Series Turbo Action Torque Converter (Tight) Part #17805ST
(2800 stall - 3400 stall range)
- Heavy duty B&M Flex Plate (holes must be for 7/16 bolts with flat heads to work with convertor) Part #10230
- A&A Ultimate Rear Sprag gear
- A&A Rollerized Rear Governor Support w/ Bearings
- Red lined clutches
- Speedometer Gear (3.54 gears, rear tires = 27.5" diameter)
- ARP hardware
Misc:
- 18* initial timing at idle, 18* swing, 36* total advance, the total in by 2800 rpm
- Brad Penn 20w 50 motor oil (after break-in)
- 26" Be Cool Aluminum Radiator Kit w/duel 11" Spal Fans - Part # BCI-82270
[/list]
That thing is VERY similar to MY 505. :2thumbs:
Now, I just need to decide on the radiator and fan combo. I'm looking for aluminum, bolt-in, possibly with the trans cooler built-in and an electric fan.
It all sounds great. I would make one change to your future purchase though. Add a tranny cooler and do not use the rad. for your tranny at all.. You have built a motor that will be TOO much for a wintry road, so no need to ADD heat to the tranny. You will want to keep the tranny cool as you can.
:Twocents: Steve
Quote from: joflaig on February 25, 2008, 05:46:44 PM
I finally got to see and hear that beast run today. Even with the mufflers it sounded fierce. Somehow I don't see myself practicing very good fuel economy with this thing...
* May add 1" spacer beneath the carb, and change to 1.25" K&N drop base air filter
A big azz stroker is supposed to sound fierce.....wait till you drop the hammer...then you'll have a true appreciation for torque and acceleration. :icon_smile_big:
I would add the 1in open spacer....that large of a motor will want the additional plenum volume for upper rpm breathing. Trust me on this ;)
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 25, 2008, 09:00:57 PM
I would add the 1in open spacer....that large of a motor will want the additional plenum volume for upper rpm breathing. Trust me on this ;)
I asked the builder and he agreed, but he wasn't sure the hood would clear, but maybe he isn't aware of the K&N filter kit you had in mind. Anyway, if it had been his motor the hood would not even be factored into the equation!
Does it mater what material these spacers are made of?
I like the phenolic spacers. They are the best for "NOT" transferring heat and they should never crack.
Looks like ProForm offers exactly what I need then:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PRO-67160C
It comes with a 4-hole insert and a 4-hole tapered insert. What's the difference in air flow between the two?
I'm looking on Summit and K&N's website, but am probably missing what I should seeing.
Quote from: Steve P. on February 25, 2008, 10:33:20 PM
I like the phenolic spacers. They are the best for "NOT" transferring heat and they should never crack.
:iagree: Phenolic is the way to go...no question ! :yesnod:
spacer : http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG1405&N=700+4294925239+4294839063+4294873482+400304+4294873429+4294873480+115&autoview=sku
Air cleaner assembly : http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=KNN%2D66%2D3040&N=700+4294925239+4294839057+4294756384+400171+4294904151+4294756359+4294790850+4294756032+4294791485+115&autoview=sku
Ron
Thanks Ron, I've ordered those parts (and updated the master list above).
The builder thought a custom measured aluminum rad from Mancini and a viscous fan would be fine for this combo. I talked at length to a helpful guy at Mancini and (surprise) he thinks it would be fine too (ok maybe I'm being too cynical). His point was that with this engine a viscous fan would rob almost no power. He also thought it was "old fashinioned" to think there was some disadvantage to a built in trans cooler. I know, you could argue endlessly.
I prefer to run the trans cooler as a stand alone unit because it will not tax the cooling system. ;)
Here's a thread you should look at to "bulletproof" your driver side engine mount. :2thumbs:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,13216.0.html
Ron
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 29, 2008, 07:20:51 AM
Here's a thread you should look at to "bulletproof" your driver side engine mount. :2thumbs:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,13216.0.html
Yup, saw that a while ago. That has been taken care of already!
Quote from: joflaig on February 29, 2008, 09:06:55 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on February 29, 2008, 07:20:51 AM
Here's a thread you should look at to "bulletproof" your driver side engine mount. :2thumbs:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,13216.0.html
Yup, saw that a while ago. That has been taken care of already!
Good....you'll need that reinforced mount with the stroker ! ;)
Ron
Just a quick update, the engine is at a 2nd shop sitting on the stand for dyno. The builder does not have a dyno and it is just as well because the shop where it's at is probably the most respected in the region (though they specialize in Chevy) and I want to get some independent validation.
Anyway, they said the motor sounded great and the timing was right, but after running it for a bit to warm it up the pipes started turning red. They suspect it's running lean. The dyno pull set for today was called off. They are going to mess with the carb tonight and hopefully tomorrow or Friday do the pulls. They also installed the 1" carb spacer.
The guy at the shop who built the motor wanted to come over to this place during the dyno for final dial-in, but this guy is hated by a lot of other builders (among others) and in the end I could not get him "invited". I can only assume this is why the carb might have been running lean. But I am trying to fugre out when he broke in the motor if it's possible that he could have done any damage. The guy at the dyno shop checked the tempature on all the exhaust tubes and they were the same, which he said was a good sign...something with the valves. Of course, in break in you are only running at lower rpms and typically for a short period, 20 minutes. Am I being too paranoid here? While I had a professional experience with the engine builder, in this area some people hate him and some people use him all the time. I'm sure I should not worry, but it's just on one fhose little things that makes me a bit nervous. I'm sure in any small metro area various builders have strong likes and dislikes amongst each other and the same goes for their customers.
Ron, You hit the nail on the head! :2thumbs: You said 540 hp and 600 fpt, and guess what? On the second pull we hit 543 and 612 fpt! First pull was 530/587. Redline was 6000rpm.
It was an awesome experience to be in a small room like that with this power and noise just shaking the walls and air itself especially when the thing hits 6000rpm. It sounded incredible, like a nascar motor screaming. Below are some videos I took. I wish the sound qualitiy were better, but you can get a taste of it.
Warming up (6mb):
http://www.johnflaig.com/GL/dyno1.avi
2nd Pull (12mb):
http://www.johnflaig.com/GL/dyno2.avi
They managed to richen up the mix and cut the exhaust temp down by 250*. He said I should bring the car in and put it on their chasis dyno when it's all put together so it can be more finely tuned.
Anyway, I'm happy! I can't wait to drive this thing, but it won't be for another 6-8 weeks I bet. The track may even be open by then. I guess the 1/4 is the last test.
As for the all the NUMBERS they're putting together a booklet for me which I will get and scan and post next week. They said the engine ran the way you would hope, so I guess I won't be too paranoid now that another builder has been over it thouroughly.
love the waterpump drive! :2thumbs:
i can't wait to make a very similar motor for my car.
Here's the full results on this build!
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page1.pdf
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page2.pdf
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page3.pdf
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page4.pdf
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page5.pdf
As I mentioned the dyno shop is a chevy place. They don't think it's a big deal, but looking at the #s they seemed to think I could have more "snap" from the motor. They thought the cam timing might be off or possibily a retarded cam.
At any rate neither they nor they guy at the resto shop thought I should be to concerned especially if there is a slight problem and it is only robbing a few horses.
But really, I am not the expert here so you guys tell me!
I still don't understand why the motor was running such a hot exhaust when it was delivered to the dyno shop. They had to mess with the jets to fatten it up. I was told the number was 12.5:1 at the top of the pull and the exhaust temp was now running 900* - 1000* after warming up the motor on the stand (What is normal?).
Basically, I think the dyno shop probably made it slightly too fat because they had more concern about getting the exhaust temp down. Their point was we can better tune it on the chassis dyno with everything hooked up. Again, they know chevy, but not so much mopar so I don't know how that factors.
I need to call the engine builder for something unrelated, and I was told to ask them if they checked the cam timing during the build. Can anyone think of anything else intelligent I could ask.
I am now back in paranoid mode.
Ron, where are you, man!
Quote from: joflaig on March 28, 2008, 06:24:39 PM
Ron, You hit the nail on the head! :2thumbs: You said 540 hp and 600 fpt, and guess what? On the second pull we hit 543 and 612 fpt! First pull was 530/587. Redline was 6000rpm.
Very nice :2thumbs: It made right around what it
should be making given the mild cam and slightly worked E-Heads. :2thumbs:
I'd be happy with those power numbers. ;)
Ron
Quote from: joflaig on April 02, 2008, 01:27:44 PM
Ron, where are you, man!
Just got home from Vegas (late last night) from the Mopars at the Strip show. :icon_smile_big:
Quote from: joflaig on April 02, 2008, 01:27:44 PM
Here's the full results on this build!
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page1.pdf
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page2.pdf
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page3.pdf
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page4.pdf
http://johnflaig.com/GL/dyno/Page5.pdf
As I mentioned the dyno shop is a chevy place. They don't think it's a big deal, but looking at the #s they seemed to think I could have more "snap" from the motor. They thought the cam timing might be off or possibily a retarded cam.
At any rate neither they nor they guy at the resto shop thought I should be to concerned especially if there is a slight problem and it is only robbing a few horses.
But really, I am not the expert here so you guys tell me!
John, those numbers look fine. You have to remeber that this is a very mild build for a 512 ci stroker. You wanted a streetable engine with lots of low end power and this is what you got. Look at all the torque at low engine speed ! :icon_smile_big:
Even if the cam was retarded a few degrees it wouldn't make any appreciable difference. It's fine ;)
Quote from: joflaig on April 02, 2008, 01:27:44 PM
I still don't understand why the motor was running such a hot exhaust when it was delivered to the dyno shop. They had to mess with the jets to fatten it up. I was told the number was 12.5:1 at the top of the pull and the exhaust temp was now running 900* - 1000* after warming up the motor on the stand (What is normal?).
Basically, I think the dyno shop probably made it slightly too fat because they had more concern about getting the exhaust temp down. Their point was we can better tune it on the chassis dyno with everything hooked up. Again, they know chevy, but not so much mopar so I don't know how that factors.
I need to call the engine builder for something unrelated, and I was told to ask them if they checked the cam timing during the build. Can anyone think of anything else intelligent I could ask.
The EGT's seem a little high. It's possible that the engine is pulling some air in from the manifold or carb base which could be leaning out the mixture. On the back of the Street Dominator Intake there is an EGR port with two holes that need to be blocked off with freeze plugs...was this done ? How much vacuum was the engine pulling at idle ?
Ron
I figured you were somewhere warm. ;)
No, I ain't complaining at all about the #s it makes. I am very happy with it and it's just what I wanted.
The dyno shop installed the carb spacer, I suppose it's possible they didn't torque it down enough, or there could be a vacum leak. The engine builder thought maybe the were using outside cold air on the dyno instead of the air in the room. I will check it out next time I visit my car at the shop. At any rate, it's going back on the chassis dyno for fine tuning when it's all put together.
I am definetly re-assured now. Thanks for your help on all this Ron!
When I am getting ready to go to the strip I will be asking for more advice! Can't wait to drive this thing in a month or so.
THATS GREAT!!!! :2thumbs:
makes me feel good just completed my build on my engine it's very similar to yours and those # are pretty good hope mine does as well.
mines a 528 with 11.6 comp Its got flat tops with zero deck I had to run a .051 gasket to drop the comp because the block was decked the last build.
same heads Im running 1.6 rockers with a 241/247 @ .050 110 lobe sep
TM7 manifold 2" spacer 1090 king demon
mancini raceing exsternal single pick up oil system
180 gph electric pump and 1/2" fuel lines
Everything else is pretty much the same I have no acssess to a engine dyno so if I even come close Ill be happy.
Bill
I am just about to finish my VERY similar 440>512 stroker motor and hope to have it to Ray Barton to break it in and get me dyno numbers in the next few weeks. All I can say about this thread is HOLY LOAD this is too cool! :yesnod:
Ron, I may name my third born after you-even it's another girl!
:icon_smile_big:\
Thank you both for taking the time to post the specifics, it's a real learning experience.
Mike R in Reading PA
Quote from: Mfr426 on April 03, 2008, 07:47:05 PM
I am just about to finish my motor and hope to have to to Ray Barton to break it in and get me dyno numbers in the next few weeks. All I can say about this thread is HOLY LOAD this is too cool! :yesnod:
Ron, I may name my third born after you-even it's another girl!
:icon_smile_big:
Three cheers for Ron, that's for sure!
Mfr426, I see you are from Reading. I lived for time when I was little outside of Reading in a town called Gouglersville...not far from Maple Grove. In the summer you could here them racing for miles around.
Jofaig, I know PRECISELY where Gouglersville is. The NEW 222 road now really has the town on the map! I'm in Sinking Spring. Talk about small world! ;)
I have a good friend that lives off of Maple Grove road and on some weekends their widows shake!!!! It's too bad that Maple Grove has missed Marketing 101 because that place could be a HUGE success. It's a hidden jewel and with the right owners it could be far more successful. :yesnod:
I'm eager to run my car at "the Grove" this summer. I'm not going to beat it too badly but I'm eager to "try" the new motor. :drool5:
Can anyone tell me if the Rollerized Rear Governor Support is necessary for the tranny rebuild? I am copying most of this build, but this was a fairly pricey part and didn't want to spend the money unless it was going to improve overall performance.
Quote from: gasoline_24 on May 19, 2009, 01:11:14 PM
Can anyone tell me if the Rollerized Rear Governor Support is necessary for the tranny rebuild? I am copying most of this build, but this was a fairly pricey part and didn't want to spend the money unless it was going to improve overall performance.
I'm not a tranny expert, but the builder was. This was their call.
Was this the part your ordered? What speedometer gear did you get? I believe you were running 275 60 15 and 3.55 is that correct?
http://www.aandatrans.com/Products/727--Rear-Kit-Only---LowReverse-Steel-Drum-Support--Park-Gear-(1966-89)__22754K.aspx
Quote from: gasoline_24 on May 19, 2009, 03:56:59 PM
Was this the part your ordered? What speedometer gear did you get? I believe you were running 275 60 15 and 3.55 is that correct?
http://www.aandatrans.com/Products/727--Rear-Kit-Only---LowReverse-Steel-Drum-Support--Park-Gear-(1966-89)__22754K.aspx
The tranny guy ordered the part. If it's not detailed on the list a few pages back, then I don't know. I just took the car into the resto shop today, oddly enough, and one of the things I am having done is to get the right speedo gear installed! Don't know what it will be yet, but yes that is the tire size.
Quote from: Mfr426 on April 04, 2008, 06:32:18 AM
Jofaig, I know PRECISELY where Gouglersville is. The NEW 222 road now really has the town on the map! I'm in Sinking Spring. Talk about small world! ;)
I have a good friend that lives off of Maple Grove road and on some weekends their widows shake!!!! It's too bad that Maple Grove has missed Marketing 101 because that place could be a HUGE success. It's a hidden jewel and with the right owners it could be far more successful. :yesnod:
I'm eager to run my car at "the Grove" this summer. I'm not going to beat it too badly but I'm eager to "try" the new motor. :drool5:
I'm about 30 minutes from there off rt100 near Pottstown. I pass through that part of 222 all the time - Funyy, I actually always read the name Gouglersville on the sign and laugh - funny name.
I've heard of Maple grove, but had no idea it was so close - once my Charger is done, I'd love to take it to the track - nice to know there's one so close.