1970 Plymouth Superbird RM23U0A174621 (Ransom (Randy) ****** original owner)
In mid-July 2017 Bob Jennings was contacted by Charlie **** regarding a 1970 Superbird his wife's uncle owned in Elkhart, IN. Charlie worked with Dave ****, whose son Matt worked with Bob Jennings.
Bob & Charlie spoke on the phone and Charlie told Bob that the Bird had been bought brand new by his wife's uncle whose name was ****
The car had been parked since the mid-1970's (?) in a garage at this address and was a limelight green, 440cubic inch 4 barrel, 4 speed with bench seats. Not much else was known about the car. Charlie sent Bob 5 poor quality pictures showing a lot of dirt, quarter panel rust and a flat tire. Charlie thought the car was worth around $30,000 but Bob told him between $50-60,000 was more accurate. Bob told Charlie he would buy the car at that price unless it was a rust heap, and Charlie told Bob that the uncle was quite eccentric and that he was waffling about really wanting to sell it.
For the next 6 weeks Bob gently pestered Charlie, and on September 5, Charlie contacted Bob and agreed on the price of $60,000. Bob, Dave & Matt Johnson, and Mike Arms all drove to Elkhart on the morning of September 16, 2017 to buy the car, put it on a trailer and haul it home, leaving around 4:45am, arriving at the location around 9:45 am.
Bob & Matt Johnson verified the VIN to agreement with the title, dash pad, radiator support, trunk lip, door tag, engine block and transmission.
Randy verified he bought the car brand new on 3/12/70 from Vernon M. Ball Plymouth, Inc in Elkhart, Indiana. He bought it because it was "different" and drove it to cruises and as a daily driver for 4 years.
Car was stored at Elkhart, IN in this building
In late 1974 Randy parked the car because of a bad voltage regulator. In late 1975 he got it running and inspected on 10/1/75 with 65,346 miles. It was last licensed on February 2, 1975 for 1975, expiring in May of 1976.
The odometer on the day that Bob pulled it out of the garage (9/16/2017) reads 65,548.9 miles.
When we first walked up to the car we all immediately noticed the trailer hitch and the 2 original jacking instruction stickers in the trunk deck. The car was quite evidently originally parked without a washing because the salt residue had destroyed the chrome on the rear bumper. All 4 tires were flat, but we had brought 4 wheels & tires from home and proceeded to remove the old wheels. The old wheels were difficult to remove, but after some penetrating oil, our electric impact wrench and judicious use of a sledge hammer to persuade the wheels off of the hubs, we replaced all 4 wheels and easily rolled the car into the sunlight for the first time in 43 years!
Randy told us he had moved the car once when he sold his house and a tow truck hauled it to this building during the night so no one would see it or know it was there. The tow truck ripped off and bent the front spoiler, which was laying in the back seat. Also laying in the seat/trunk was the radio and alternator.
When we got the car into the sunlight, the 43 years of dirt showed, as did the parking of the car without removing the accumulated road salt. The interior had some damage from mice and the trunk was full of trash, but all-in-all the car was in excellent shape except for the external body panels.
We determined before we winched the car on the trailer that both quarter panels will need to be replaced, the top portion of both fenders behind the scoops will need repair, and the nose has a dent in it, needing repair as does the passenger headlight bucket. The vinyl top is perfect, the interior does not leak, but will need the bench seat repaired and new carpet. The floor boards all appear fine (surface rust only), as does the trunk floor and frame rails!
We (Bob Jennings, Mike Arms, Matt & Dave Johnson) winched the car on the trailer, taking many pictures and a video, said our last goodbyes, and started the 5 hour drive home. During the drive we had people waving and yelling at us, honking and when we stopped to eat the car was engulfed by onlookers, picture takers and curious crowds.
Upon arrival at our shop in Southern Indiana, we snapped a few more pictures and proceeded to wash the driver's ½ side of the car, while also vacuuming and cleaning out the interior. We found several dollars worth of change, and deep cleaned a portion of the vinyl top and dash pad. There was absolutely zero rust around the windshield or dash pad, inside or out or around the back window or moulding, and the car had no leaks when we washed it. We attribute this to 43 years of darkness leaving all the rubber in excellent condition.
We then very, very carefully hooked up a 12 volt battery just to see what was going on electrically, and to our surprise everything with a fuse still worked. A number of fuses were missing so we could not check everything, but the lights, wipers and brake lights worked. The fuses were missing for the tic-toc-tach, horn, turn signals and interior lights, and the radio was out of the car, but there was absolutely zero indication of mouse damage to the wiring.
We then pushed the car into the garage and put it on the lift for examination. We found surface rust underneath the car, but no where was it serious. The bell housing was missing the inspection plate and the starter was gone. The brakes did not show any leakage, but the emergency brake cable was badly corroded and we kind of felt like there was no fluid in the master cylinder. The transmission showed no leaks, but the front seal of the dana read end yoke was leaking. The engine was pretty grimy, and for some reason the driver's side valve cover had been unscrewed but we could see no issues. Overall, this was very, very minor stuff.
The plans are now:
First, Pull the spark plugs, fill the cylinders with marvel oil, and let it sit for a few days. Then we will do a complete engine degreasing and pressure wash and let it dry outside in the sun. Then we will put in all new spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, rotor, points and condenser.
Second, we will pull the carb and send it out to Harm's Automotive for rebuild, while replacing all the rubber fuel line pieces and the fuel filter. We will pull the gas tank and see if it can just be cleaned (it looks good), blow out the gas lines and tank with compressed air, bolt on a temporary carb and get a new air filter. We will then change the oil and filter, and gently see if we can turn the crank by hand several rotations.
Third, we will replace the alternator, voltage regulator, starter, all hoses and belts and put in a temporary radiator and probably replace the water pump while the radiator is out. At the same time we will put in new temperature and oil pressure sending units and a new dipstick since the old one is missing. I have many of these parts as extras in my shop.
Next, we will feed it the gas and see if it starts, keeping our fingers crossed! If it does we will then pull the bench seat for repairing it ourselves with a little black duct tape, pull the back seat and hope for a build sheet, give the interior and exterior a real good cleaning, put in new carpet and put it all back together. I could probably clean and keep the old carpet, but the mouse poop issue is a concern-awaiting comments.
Finally, we will do a complete brake job, turning the drums & rotors, rebuilding the wheel cylinders and calipers, and replacing the emergency brake lines. At this point the car should be very (safely) drivable.
You will notice that I am not repairing the body as of right now. I feel that I can do all the repairs and minor replacements for a bit less than $2,000 by myself (and friends), yet still quite correctly call the car a survivor if that is important to you, since the only things replaced are normal wear and tear items. Since this is a well-documented 1-owner, un-molested and un-modified car I think I want to keep it that way. The trunk stickers are as mounted from the factory, all of the driveline marks are the ones the factory put on, all the stickers are in the right places, I still have the warranty card and original title and all of the paperwork to keep this car as a reference for future owners. Heck the trunk still has the original dealer sticker from Vernon R. Ball, Inc, Elkhart, Indiana and what's a little rust between friends?
With the assistance of Tan Top (Steve) I will post as many pictures as I can from yesterday's purchase date, and as we go through the process. One of the neatest pictures is of the hood after we washed just the driver's side.
Bob J
So cool! What a find. Congratulations!
What else can I say but wow! Amazing that these cars are still out there waiting to be found. I know I will be in a minority.....but I would want to drive it ....but sympathetically restored. Not to show standard...but without the rust and faded Chrome. A survivor holds no great value to me ....but as I said I can see the other point of view. MORE PHOTOS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE PLEASE!
Quotepull the back seat and hope for a build sheet
Do not ignore the front seat. The last Superbird sheet I found was under the front seat in the springs, the owner had previously found one in the rear seat.
If it has bucket seats look inside the removable backs also, as well as under the carpet & taped to the back of the glove box liner.
Some owners find 3-5 sheets if the car has never been searched before.
You may even find one or two for other cars.
Happy hunting!
Thanks soo much for sharing so much information and details. I was picturing being there.
I am looking forward to the pics!
Dave
Nice find. :2thumbs: I can only hope I can find a Daytona one day like that.
Quote from: taxspeaker on September 17, 2017, 10:18:28 AM
the uncle was quite eccentric
Isn't that all of us? ::)
Great find, keep the pics and documentation coming.
Thank you for sharing. :cheers:
I just sent Tan Top a bunch of pictures if he gets a chance-I am not good at the picture posting thing. Worked on the car for hours yesterday. I am keeping a log each day, but getting ready for several weeks of work travel so not much will happen for a bit.
09/17/17 65,548 Removed spark plugs, filled cylinders with oil to sit for 2 weeks to try and free up
Pistons for the future, replaced spark plugs to 3-4 turns. Plugs were really difficult to get out but not as bad as expected. They are originals as are all of the plug wires, radiator hoses and clamps. Sprayed penetrating oil/lubricant on shock bolts-lower & upper rear, lower front. Also sprayed on transmission linkage. Vacuumed engine compartment and undercarriage removing lots of mouse stuffing and seeds. Noted radiator full of seeds and mouse stuffing so cap must have been off. Removed non-original overflow bottle and noted that fuel line was unhooked from carb line, plus vapor canister not present. I hope this means the fuel lines were blown out when parked.
Cleaned vinyl top for first time. Will need several cleaning and scrubbings but appears that it will clean up close to new. Engine compartment should clean up quite well with soap/water/pressure washer to inner fenders and front end, plus degreaser on engine. Cleaned dash pad and door panels. Dash panel, door panels and back seat will all clean up well-it is a black interior with the silver trim and nothing will be replaced. Some wear on driver door arm area where steel is worn and paint scratched but I am leaving it alone. Found a 1969 paycheck stub for plant worker in trunk back where jack hold down plate was. Not sure what to do on surface rust on the frame and rear end-I would like to clean it up but don't want to damage any of the original stuff or markings and would love some ideas.
WD-40'd trunk lock cylinder to see if we can free up stuck key. Also going to test radio that had been removed from car.
Determined some order of work:
1. Degrease engine and pressure wash-tighten valve cover first and make sure all engine areas are sealed.
2. Remove bench seat and order replacement covers and padding
3. Deep clean interior, duct tape headliner, remove rear seat and look for build sheet behind glove box and under seats.
4. Remove and deep clean carpet if cleanable, order new otherwise
5. Replace fuses and clean under dash while carpet is out.
6. Replace radio speaker, lube heater cables, check dash wiring, check clock functionality
7. Pull radiator, replace hoses, radiator send off to restore, water pump, install temporary aluminum radiator
8. Replace shocks, clean and lube front end
9. Pull gas tank. Blow out gas lines and replace all rubber pieces and fuel filter & vapor canister, replace fuel pump, air filter and install temporary Holley carb.
10. Pull carb and send for rebuilding
11. Send alternator for rebuilding
12. Replace voltage regulator, ballast resistor, starter relay, coil with NOS stuff I have here
13. Replace plugs, wires, dist cap, rotor, condenser & points with NOS stuff I have here
14. Rebuild rear wheel cylinders, turn drums and replace brakes & rubber hoses
15. Rebuild calipers, turn rotors, replace pads and rubber hoses, repack wheel bearings, check master cylinder and rebuild if necessary
16. Bleed brakes, replace valve cover gaskets
17. Replace emergency brake cables, transmission fluid
18. Replace yoke seal and rear differential fluid
Quote from: Beep Beep Dave on September 17, 2017, 10:10:03 PM
Thanks soo much for sharing so much information and details. I was picturing being there.
I am looking forward to the pics!
Dave
:iagree: yes I agree , what BBD said :coolgleamA: :2thumbs:
watch this space ! for pictures :yesnod: :popcrn:
at 60K probably the best "buy" on a wing car in a long time. :cheers:
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on September 18, 2017, 10:34:42 AM
at 60K probably the best "buy" on a wing car in a long time. :cheers:
Yeah, I think it is better than my recent Superbird deal.......
Quote from: tan top on September 18, 2017, 10:13:40 AM
Quote from: Beep Beep Dave on September 17, 2017, 10:10:03 PM
Thanks soo much for sharing so much information and details. I was picturing being there.
I am looking forward to the pics!
Dave
:iagree: yes I agree , what BBD said :coolgleamA: :2thumbs:
watch this space ! for pictures :yesnod: :popcrn:
:yesnod: :2thumbs:
:popcrn: :coolgleamA: :yesnod:
:coolgleamA: :drool5: :yesnod:
:2thumbs: :popcrn:
picture 1 , just out in the light , first time in 43 years
picture 2 , on way home
picture 3 , original dealer trunk sticker
picture 7 , windshield washer hose placement
picture 8 , date coded voltage regulator 479
:popcrn:
picture 1 , original vacuum line routing
picture 2 , vinyl top after first clean
Great story and awesome pictures. Thanks for sharing.
Awesome configuration !!! The newest AB !! :2thumbs:
Awesome find! Congratulations!
Absolutely STUNNING car! :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Top of the Plymouth tree for me...
Limey Green with a four speed!!! :drool5: :drool5: :drool5:
Well done for finding her and well done to the guys who looked after her too... :cheers:
I'm with alfa, wash her and drive her lol... :drive: :drive: :drive:
Four on da FLOOR! does it get any betta? :D
IMO, keep as original as possible.
Only original once. After that, "just another restored wing car"...
:cheers:
Cool find. :2thumbs:
Awesome story & very cool find. It always just amazes me that some people have a spare 60K to find & buy something like this. LOL.
Quote from: odcics2 on September 19, 2017, 02:04:23 PM
IMO, keep as original as possible.
Only original once. After that, "just another restored wing car"...
I am shocked at me saying it, but I have got to agree with odcics on this. Keep it as original as possible. :2thumbs:
Great find, I also would leave the car untouched, 1/4 rust & all. Especially if its original paint still.
Cleaned and detailed, tuned up but otherwise all original would make for a really interesting car at shows.
You need to take it to MCACN in Chicago in November. They have a barn find display there. This car will get alot of attention.
Yeah we are still planning on no body work. The vinyl top today after the 4th careful scrub looks brand new. The glove box open door for 40 years responded well to 12 hours of penetrating oil and now closes! My boys removed the front seat today after work and says it shows no mouse homes, but the rips will need repair. The back seat however has some bad stuff-they tell me the front lip along the bottom of the back seat has rusted away-probably from mouse pee and they are having trouble getting it out-will wait for me to get home in 10 days. Found 1 little remnant of a build sheet on the floor in front of the seat so it is not looking good for whenever we can get that seat out, and will probably need to buy a new back seat frame unless we can somehow get it out without breaking it in two.
Does anyone rebuild voltage regulators or alternators? I really want to keep these originals and not replace them. Have decided to pull the original radiator hoses and clean them and see if they are acceptable for use. Voltage regulator is date coded 479-47th week of 1969 so I think it is clearly original for a late build date like this
The boys detailed a small section of the hood and it buffed out very well-see attached.
The carpet reeks of mouse pee, but we are still going to try and clean it and reuse it because it is in good shape. Other than the rear seat frame and the ripped fornt seat everything in the interior will be cleaned and used as is-the door panels are excellent, the armrests are excellent the chrome base plates are dull but acceptable and the chrome door handles and window cranks just need some gentle steel wool. The dash is excellent as are the gauges, shifter, heater, etc and even the glovebox cardboard is excellent, so the interior will be cleaned and left alone.
My original plans were to get it all running with everything merely cleaned and reusing or rebuilding the original parts and then selling it. At some point the rust will need to be dealt with, but it inside a heated shop, so I am unsure where we will go on it. My wife says keep it and fix the body in a year or two, but I don't think I want to do that again now-in the meantime we will have a load of fun just cleaning and rebuilding without replacing.
On the plug wires I am not sure they are original. They say "silicone core suppressor cable pat no. ...."-I thought these were date coded-anyone know?
Forgot to mention-the windows all crank up and down flawlessly-unheard of in an old car like this! The radio tested out ok today, just a cut wire that we fixed so it will go back in as is. We will soak the PCV valve and reuse it and clean the carb and try to reuse it without rebuilding. The "key-in" buzzer worked when we hooked up the wiring the other day.
The engine compartment is nasty-lots of scrubbing and degreasing to occur there. The pie pan cleaned up somewhat acceptably maybe a 6 on a scale of 10.
The trunk mat has been removed and we are slowly degreasing it to reuse-it is also a mess after 43 years. It does have the rear bumper jack and arm, as well as the front jack tie down plate and jack arm, but is missing the front jack. I am still hoping they will find the starter, bellhousing cover and this jack up in Elkhart on the next trip up there. No other parts appear missing or visibly broken.
Really nice story and writing.
Awesome story! Make sure to look under the carpet BEFORE cleaning....you may find even more documentation.
I didn't look under mine until owning it for close to 30-years. And sure enough, a second build sheet.
Are those rust spots on topsides of fender where the brace is ?
So was only driven for 4 years. Was it always stored inside after that ? Did all that quarter rust happen in first 4 years ?
Id think buying AMD 1/4's and cutting out what is needed for patching the quarters and blend it up to first line with some urethane base paint would do wonders clean the rest and drive it as is. :drool5:
is your white bird 4 speed and #s match ?
:drool5: i want the trailor hitch off it :drool5: if you decide to take it off LOL great find ENJOY it :2thumbs:
Exactly right Charger fan!
Only fix the rust holes with bare minimum patching and leave her in all her beautiful Limeyness!!! :2thumbs:
Original vinyl's are made of strong stuff and always look good with age.
She is worth as much as a restored birdie, without the resto costs in my booky wook... :icon_smile_big:
Its only original once and patina can't be faked. :scratchchin:
Aerolite.
My Dad always said, '' don't fix what ain't broke''.
Never a truer word said when it comes to old Mopes.
Nothing like a good scrubbing with dish soap and a toothbrush.
Simple, but works wonders. Very gentle on old materials like vinyl.
Found the original #88 Engineering Daytona's headrest at Don White's shop, sitting in a box since 1973,
along with a bunch of other stuff. At first, looked trashed!
But, after some elbow grease and then sitting in the sun to get rid of creases, its ok to use, as is.
Actually thinking about leaving the trailer hitch and pulling the white bird behind it on an open trailer to some car show somewhere for kicks!
Cool idea. :popcrn:
This is great! Exciting to see the preservation efforts.
:coolgleamA: :2thumbs: :drool5: :popcrn:
Very cool, congrats!!
Pat
Thank you for sharing the informative & detailed story of this car, along with the cool pics! What an awesome find, I'm looking forward to your continued updates & photos.
In your to-do list, I didn't see you talk about changing the trans fluid. Make sure you do that too, since it's probably pretty ripe after all those years.
Oh, and great looking garage! :2thumbs: :)
Here is the latest good and bad news on the limegreen 43 year old:
In the last two weeks we have dis-assembled the entire interior. The floor pans (pictures attached) all have very minor surface rust and will be left untouched. The frontbench seat will need to be recovered as the hole is too bad to fix. The rear seat frame bottom rusted away from mouse droppings and we found a huge nest there. I wore a respirator and gloves to clean all of that out. Sadly there were tiny bits and pieces of the build sheet in the nest, but they were not recoverable. Once cleaned out we have it airing out and have put in a bunch of odor neutralizer and baking soda to remove the mouse smell. Strangely the floor there is also undamaged.
We removed the carpet undamaged in the front and back pieces. It reeks but we will try to clean it and air it out over the next few weeks-it is in excellent condition and if we can vacuum it many times and take it outside to clean and get rid of the smell it is clearly usable. I am trying to figure out a way to shampoo it to also clean out the smell.
The interior wiring is all undamaged or chewed and will not be modified in any way, except to replace all of the old missing fuses, put the radio back in and vacuum it. The passenger air vent is full of mouse nest and there is some rust damage at the bottom of the heater box leading me to believe that either mice lived in there too or the core leaked. It will need to be pulled, cleaned and repaired. The interior kick panels, window cranks, armrest and door pads are all in incredible condition and we cleaned them and have them ready for reinstallation at some point when we decide what to do on the carpet.
In the trunk we have found the complete original bumper jack, base, tie down wing nut and jack arm that we cleaned. We cleaned the original trunk mat for 5 days, but have now reused it-when but original and acceptable. For the nose jack we have found the tie down plate and wing nut and the jack arm, but not the jack. The wiring in the trunk was modified for the trailer hitch and we are leaving it alone-I still want to put the white bird on an open trailer and pull it with the green bird someday just to see people's reactions!
We determined from casting codes and date numbers that the alternator in the trunk was original so we sent it off to Dixie Resto for repair. We have not found a starter. I have an old, date correct starter that was rebuilt at some time 40 years ago but it has a different date code on part of it, so we are still looking. The voltage regulator is badly rusted and I have been unable to find one with the same date code (479) so I am going to put a 469 code on it for now in order to complete the ignition circuit. The plugs, points, wires, condenser and cap are all bad and new old stock is in hand and ready to install. We will also replace the radiator hoses with new old stock I have in my shop.
It looks like the engine bay will clean up very well with some hard work, scrubbing and cleaner. The underside of the hood is a surface rust mess, but we will at least clean it up.
The gas tank is empty!. I think we will pressure test it, blow it out, replace the short rubber hoses, filter and vapor separator and maybe the fuel pump, rebuild the carb and go with it!
So the summary of the good news-other than cleaning and finding the missing nose jack, the interior is fantastic and will be reinstalled once the carpet and seat issues are addressed. The wiring seems to be fine too, and we already have most of the parts to fix the ignition circuit and missing electrical stuff.
The bad news: we are unable to get the engine to turn-it is frozen. We stopped trying yesterday after an hour and will now fill the cylinders with a mixture of 1/3 each kerosene, ATF and marvel mystery or PB blaster and let it sit for a week. Rather than risk breaking the crankshaft bolt, we are then going to put the car in gear (it is a stick) and try to rock it back and forth to see if we can free up the pistons that way. We have not degreased the engine are or done anything else there until we see where we are on this. I don't want to pull the engine and we are not in a hurry, so we will keep trying.
Will post again in a few weeks.
Nice Find :2thumbs: If it were up to me, I'd get a cheap Harbor Freight inspection camera and stick it down the spark plug holes to see what the cylinder walls look like, But seeing that it's the matching #'s engine, I would probably pull it anyway and rebuild it which is what most of us would do, why risk catastrophic damage to the original block and devalue your investment. If that's not in your budget then pull it, put it off to the side and put a running 440 in it for now. :Twocents:
If its seized then the very least you will have is marked cylinder walls where the rings are stuck, rusted to it....so even if you free it off, damage to the rings/piston/bores is almost inevitable when you fire her up..imo. At the very least I would be taking the heads off to have a good look after (or if) you get the pistons moving. You might get away with taking the pistons out, freeing the rings in their grooves and honing the bore.....or not!
IMO opinion it needs a total restoration, to look good again. :Twocents:
Original rust is not my idea of cool. :Twocents:
Great find either way. :cheers:
I have to agree....a "survivor" is only cool if its actually survived! ...and that means being drivable, fully functioning and rust free. I think you could get away without a FULL resto.....but the rust has got to go....just do the minimum you need to make it look like a true survivor. The my mind a survivor looks like it did the day it left the showroom....just with age related marks from wear and tear (faded paint, upholstery showing wear and tear from normal use, an engine that's original but actually runs!!). This one has not really survived....its got some rust and does not run. That rust will only get worse so it needs dealing with now....even the floor pan corrosion,...as slight as it is, it wont heal itself. Still a very cool find though. :2thumbs:
Good point on the exterior rust-it must be addressed.
I am torn between making that decision or selling it and letting the new owner decide. My wife surprisingly says keep and restore but I've sunk so much money in these cars the thought of the cost of body work and paint leads me the other way. I can do all the mechanical things, but have no body work or paint skills and my age is catching up now on the mechanical side. The nice thing is there is no hurry to work on it, and I am entering 6 weeks of heavy work related travel so little will be done.
In reading the comments it is fun to see the different opinions-Charger Fan had me leaning towards nothing but getting it running, but Alfa makes common sense. Thanks for all of the suggestions guys, that's why I post the info as we go through it. Look for the Daytona to Alaska trip July, 2018!
Bob
This site could stand to have another bird resto :popcrn: as long as the means are there to do so.
But, is there any more joy in having another wing car in the stable, being that you have one of each already restored? If so, I'd say keep it and restore it. If not, let someone else have the joy of the resto.
Quote from: taxspeaker on October 01, 2017, 06:57:42 PM
Good point on the exterior rust-it must be addressed.
I am torn between making that decision or selling it and letting the new owner decide. My wife surprisingly says keep and restore but I've sunk so much money in these cars the thought of the cost of body work and paint leads me the other way. I can do all the mechanical things, but have no body work or paint skills and my age is catching up now on the mechanical side. The nice thing is there is no hurry to work on it, and I am entering 6 weeks of heavy work related travel so little will be done.
In reading the comments it is fun to see the different opinions-Charger Fan had me leaning towards nothing but getting it running, but Alfa makes common sense. Thanks for all of the suggestions guys, that's why I post the info as we go through it. Look for the Daytona to Alaska trip July, 2018!
Bob
you have two nice pretty wing cars , I say leave it as is , its so cool as is and i bet if you took it to a show and parked it next to your pretty white bird Most of the people will ignore your pretty car and come look at the Green one . :Twocents: :Twocents:
Quote from: moparstuart on October 02, 2017, 10:59:21 AM
Quote from: taxspeaker on October 01, 2017, 06:57:42 PM
Good point on the exterior rust-it must be addressed.
I am torn between making that decision or selling it and letting the new owner decide. My wife surprisingly says keep and restore but I've sunk so much money in these cars the thought of the cost of body work and paint leads me the other way. I can do all the mechanical things, but have no body work or paint skills and my age is catching up now on the mechanical side. The nice thing is there is no hurry to work on it, and I am entering 6 weeks of heavy work related travel so little will be done.
In reading the comments it is fun to see the different opinions-Charger Fan had me leaning towards nothing but getting it running, but Alfa makes common sense. Thanks for all of the suggestions guys, that's why I post the info as we go through it. Look for the Daytona to Alaska trip July, 2018!
Bob
you have two nice pretty wing cars , I say leave it as is , its so cool as is and i bet if you took it to a show and parked it next to your pretty white bird Most of the people will ignore your pretty car and come look at the Green one . :Twocents: :Twocents:
And I bet you will not be as worried if someone touched the green car vs the white car
I think there is a lot less stress and as much or more enjoyment in driving a less than perfect car
agreed quarter panel rust needs to go. Weld in some new metal and blend the paint in. Fixing the rust at worse isnt going to take any value away from it. As mentioned it didnt survive well in that area, so why not fix it? Id probably address that floor rust too, a wire wheel and some por15 and paint overtop at a minimum. Not like the floor will get wet again so should be fine.
Don't listen to the people that are saying fix the the rust/restore it etc...
They are still stuck in the past, the car hobby has grown to appreciate originality in all forms now!
You will get more looks, attention & appreciation leaving the car original(rust & all), and thus telling the story in first tense.
Once you restore it, spot the paint in, you are not only erasing what you can't replace but you are also making a decision on originality (for the cars sake) that will reverberate into the cars future and future owners, thus changing its history.
Anybody with money can restore a car, and any average spectator can appreciate a shiny "as new" example of a rare car, but the un-tampared originality and history of your car is what makes it special, and to polish & buff that away is not something I would agree with.
Quote from: F8-4life on October 05, 2017, 07:57:59 PM
the un-tampared originality and history of your car is what makes it special
Well said. :2thumbs:
Dare to be different!
My vote,... leave it alone as much as possible.
I would fix only the things that hinder it from being drive-able, reliable or doesn't work.
I would enjoy driving it as is, as a cleaned up, or even a dirty barn find.
The mouse smell would definitely have to be fixed. :eek2: :icon_smile_big:
Really!??? On a non rusty car I would agree 100% - originality is everything....but this car has rust....there is nothing attractive or value enhancing about rust, whether its old rust or new. Not to mention leaving it there will mean the car depreciating rather than growing in value as the rust gets worse (as we all know that when the rust gets in there it ONLY gets worse....and that's just the rust you CAN see!). Are you suggesting leave the rust until the holes get bigger or the floor pan perforates. At the very least the rust needs a chemical treatment to stop it getting worse (....and I've never found a substance that really works for more than a few months)....removing rust is the only real solution to that type of corrosion. It would be a shame to see the car slowly rusting away just to meet someone's requirements for originality. If everyone did that a lot of the high value fully restored cars on this forum would have rusted to the point of a one way trip to the crusher by now....is that what you really would want for it? ....especially on a car getting as rare as a real 'bird.
Quote from: F8-4life on October 05, 2017, 07:57:59 PM
Don't listen to the people that are saying fix the the rust/restore it etc...
They are still stuck in the past, the car hobby has grown to appreciate originality in all forms now!
You will get more looks, attention & appreciation leaving the car original(rust & all), and thus telling the story in first tense.
Once you restore it, spot the paint in, you are not only erasing what you can't replace but you are also making a decision on originality (for the cars sake) that will reverberate into the cars future and future owners, thus changing its history.
Anybody with money can restore a car, and any average spectator can appreciate a shiny "as new" example of a rare car, but the un-tampared originality and history of your car is what makes it special, and to polish & buff that away is not something I would agree with.
:cheers: :cheers: Here here spot on :2thumbs:
Quote from: alfaitalia on October 06, 2017, 01:46:59 AM
Really!??? On a non rusty car I would agree 100% - originality is everything....but this car has rust....there is nothing attractive or value enhancing about rust, whether its old rust or new. Not to mention leaving it there will mean the car depreciating rather than growing in value as the rust gets worse (as we all know that when the rust gets in there it ONLY gets worse....and that's just the rust you CAN see!). Are you suggesting leave the rust until the holes get bigger or the floor pan perforates. At the very least the rust needs a chemical treatment to stop it getting worse (....and I've never found a substance that really works for more than a few months)....removing rust is the only real solution to that type of corrosion. It would be a shame to see the car slowly rusting away just to meet someone's requirements for originality. If everyone did that a lot of the high value fully restored cars on this forum would have rusted to the point of a one way trip to the crusher by now....is that what you really would want for it? ....especially on a car getting as rare as a real 'bird.
RUST IS NOT A CRIME , and yes some of us like it that way .
Surface rust on a survivor ok, but rot holes the size of your fists ?
Quote from: thehemikid on October 06, 2017, 01:21:32 AM
My vote,... leave it alone as much as possible.
I would fix only the things that hinder it from being drive-able, reliable or doesn't work.
I would enjoy driving it as is, as a cleaned up, or even a dirty barn find.
The mouse smell would definitely have to be fixed. :eek2: :icon_smile_big:
I think I would detail the car the way your doing it. Hopefully you can get the motor loosened up Then drive it the way it is. The rust may advance but when the car does get restored you'll still be putting on full Quarters/Wheelhouses ect.
My first car was a 69 charger that had a rot hole in the passenger side rear quarter about the size of a football. The only time it bothered me was when I was burning all the rubber off the rear tires and the car would fill up with smoke. :icon_smile_big:
If you do decide to restore it then maybe offer it up the way it is I'm sure someone would like it the way it is plus do you really want to go thru another ground up resto again?
In the last month we have not done a ton of work because I am on overtime until Christmas. Here is what we have done:
We removed the radiator and determined it was rotten. We recored it while saving the top and bottom for originality-it looks original
We cleaned the carpet several times and found that although it is physically reusable the mouse pee smell is actually worse and we will order new carpet soon.
We examined the master cylinder and found it dry, and rather than fool around with safety we have ordered all the original OEM Mopar parts and have them in hand to rebuild the master and wheel cylinders, hoses, calipers shoes, pads and emergency brake lines
We examined the gas tank and found it did not have gas in it (A good thing!) but we were unable to remove it for cleaning because of the trailer hitch, becoming a future job.
After a month of trying everything known to man we have been unable to get the pistons to free up, so the engine will need pulling in the future. We took the hood off to get to things but just no luck and we do not want to damage the original engine and all the original parts.
We examined all the wiring and found no issues whatsoever other than a bad horn relay and the clock in the tic toc tach not working, which is normal.
We are getting ready to clean the surface rust on the interior floors and then seal them before putting in new carpet-the smell from the old carpet is just unbearable. We also replaced the back seat base frame and will need to recover it and the front seat because the holes are just too bad. Hoping for a sale at Legendary this week! Although we have a new headliner, I decided to live with the old one for a while just patching the holes.
In working under the dash we found the home of all the mice-it was the heater box, and the thing was an absolute EPA clean up site. Anyway, it is now out and has been sent off to TheHeaterBox guy for restoration. You don't want to get the interior back in working order with a bad heater core, motor and mice, so it makes sense.
I found a repro nose jack and have reinstalled the original spare wheel with a new tire, and both jacks , handles and bases. We also removed the 40+ year old aftermarket tires and junked them, saving the old wheels for future restoration. I also found an old clutch dust cover so the only thing I am now missing is a starter. We went back up yesterday to get a bill of sale I forgot to have signed and went through the garage and are unable to find the starter, but I do have one from 1970 that needs rebuilding so it is not a disaster.
Between now and Thanksgiving we are going to sand down the surface rust on the floor and seal it (there are no holes and it appears to all be surface rust), reinstall the interior and check everything there while cleaning it real good. Over Christmas we will do a complete brake rebuild and then decide whether to go forward. At that point I will probably be selling the car, the engine rebuild and body work is just more than I want to do and more than my boys have time to do-I will put it on here first before EBay.
Quote from: charger_fan_4ever on September 18, 2017, 10:34:42 AM
at 60K probably the best "buy" on a wing car in a long time. :cheers:
At first glance, that may sound reasonable, but it sure sounds like that it now needs a full restoration. What's a realistic price that a restored 440 Bird 4-speed going for these days?
Hey all-
Here's an article I did on Bob's Superbird :cheers:
http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/finders-keepers-bob-jennings-1970-plymouth-superbird-barn-find/
Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on November 16, 2017, 01:14:58 AM
Hey all-
Here's an article I did on Bob's Superbird :cheers:
http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/finders-keepers-bob-jennings-1970-plymouth-superbird-barn-find/
cool nice article
This an incredible article, please don't stop posting on this anytime soon. :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn:
Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on November 16, 2017, 01:14:58 AM
Hey all-
Here's an article I did on Bob's Superbird :cheers:
http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/finders-keepers-bob-jennings-1970-plymouth-superbird-barn-find/
good write up Cody , nice work :2thumbs: :coolgleamA: :cheers:
Thank you for the kind words everyone! :cheers:
I have decided not to sell this one, and am slowly working towards some acceptable solution. My goal is to not change anything right now, and to not replace parts. We are trying to rebuild bad parts so that it is still original and since so many replacement parts are Chinese junk. I also want to leave open options for the future on this car, while rebuilding or repairing anything that is safety related like brakes and fuel lines. We have laid out 4 different courses of action, listed in order of preference:
1st: Fix, rebuild or repair anything broken or safety related, rebuild the engine and drive it as the rusted hulk it is; or
2nd: Do all of the first goal and have a local body shop that we trust fix and repair the body and paint to an acceptable good quality driver; or
3rd: keep all the original stuff we can and make it an excellent driver with Alter-k-tion suspension, 4-wheel discs, tremec tranny and modern hi-po hemi drivetrain with better horsepower, dependability & mileage, adding a/c and modern seats and radio, while fixing the rust and painting it, so that we have a true Superbird resto-mod (But no 20" wheels!). If you were to ever resto-mod a Bird, this rusted out pile would be the one to do it, while keeping all the original parts if a purist wants to restore it after I am gone.
4th: Last choice-do a full restoration on the car. But then it would be another Bird nobody wants to drive, and that doesn't seem to be acceptable to me.
An update on repairs-most of which need to be done no matter what.
We have the interior stripped and now have put new Legendary covers on-the rear seat frame had to be replaced because it had rusted through from mouse pee, and the smell was stripping paint off of nearby cars and getting little kids to run away crying. We found a replacement frame in Florida. The driver side of the front bench had a hole in the seat cover that was not repairable, so we decided to just recover the front and the back.
While the seats are out over the holiday we are sanding off the rust on the floor inside, then will seal and repaint the floor. Sadly, again we have had to replace the carpet-not because of wear and tear, but because the smell was causing old ladies to faint and was attracting raccoons.
The door panels are all solid, as are the doors and rubber seals.
The heater box had completely rusted apart-it was the central world offices of Mickey Mouse and family. We had The Heater Box Guy in Pennsylvania fix and restore all that and now have it back. We also sent the radio to Ward's radio and had him replace some bad transistors in the radio and now have it back.
The glove box steel had all rusted away from the mouse pee (!) so I found a used 1 in a junkyard and have replaced the steel backing while cleaning up the front. It looks fine now, but the cardboard glove box was the source of many EPA violations for hazardous waste and noxious fumes from, again, the mouse pee. What do mice drink-acid?
All of the interior wiring is perfect and has been tested fine as well. The Tic-Toc tach was not repairable, so we are sending the instrument cluster to Dave Patek at Instrument Specialties next week to fix it and check everything else out. The mice peed everywhere, but did not seem to have chewed anything. We now have all interior lights working, turn signals and key-in buzzer working and any other interior item working by just cleaning connectors, replacing fuses and plugging things back in correctly. Since we are rebuilding the alternator and starter I am pulling the windshield wiper motor over the weekend to also rebuild it, so that pretty much all of the electrical stuff will be not only functional but also in safe shape.
We started into the brake system, which was totally non-functional. There was zero, and I mean zero brake fluid in any lines, calipers or cylinders and the lines had rusted out, so the next job is to rebuild (not replace) both rear wheel cylinders, calipers and master cylinder and replace all the brake lines. I have all the parts, it is just time I need to get it done. The one thing I have never done is rebuilt a power booster, and since you can't find one and this is original, I guess I will try to do that since the remainder of the brake system will be rebuilt. The emergency brake system is frozen, so I will pull the foot pedal assembly and start from there on cleaning & lubing it, and replacing the corroded lines.
The trailer hitch is going to have to come out. It blocks the gas tank, which is rusted through, and since I am going to replace the gas lines too, it may as well be pulled to see if we can fix it or if it needs to be replaced. I am not a fan of the aftermarket gas tanks-I had one from YearOne split in 1/2 on me on my trip to Alaska 2 years ago and I would rather have American made.
The rear springs look pretty nasty and I am trying to decide where to go with them. I vaguely remember getting springs re-arched when I was a Chrysler mechanic in a different century, but I wonder if they get brittle and can't be re-arched? We are going to put in a new set of shocks and see what it looks and feels like. The front suspension is beat to snot and was ready for a rebuild 43 years ago. I won't do anything there until I decide whether to go with option 3 above.
We have not been able to get the engine to turn over, so we will pull it once the weather warms up in the spring. Same, with the tranny and clutch.
Finally, we were able to get a body man to look at the car today. It needs quarters and a trunk lid, but the rest is repairable, although there is a ton of surface rust that will need media blasting. Awaiting a price on that to determine which of the above options to go for. Option 1 would be cool-driving around a safe but ratty old Joe Dirt Superbird is kind of appealing, but so is option 2. Option 3-Restomod will actually be cheaper than option 4 and more fun I think but will cost some major coin. Chime in with opinions if you've got them.
Hope everyone has a great New Year, thanks for keeping up with the long story.
Bob
I would go with option 2 myself. 1 or 4 are ok, just don't resto-mod it! ::)
4......but perhaps not to show car gold standard..and then just drive it ! :2thumbs: Creating trailer queens should be illegal...it's an affront to all that cars were created for!
1
:iagree:
2/4
I knew lots would say 1......problem with that is the rust will only get worse....to see it slowly disintegrate after all the this time would be the worst option IMO!
This car was neglected for 43 years.
Give it a proper restoration.
You don't have to go all show poodle.
Just nice.
Fix the rust. Nobody seeks fortune looking for a rusted 4k LBS Mopar.
I like option 2 as well. They're nice to look at but much more fun to drive! :Twocents:
Happy New Year & Decisions!:cheers:
1
the rust won't get worse unless you store it wet or drive it in the salt which you probably won't do.
If you choose "2" it will be "just" a driver as many others (which don't get driven on the other hand, too by most)
Carsten
Of course the rust will get worse....only takes the moisture in the air to feed it. Never known a rusty car to stop rusting just because it was moved into somewhere warmer!
Quote from: alfaitalia on January 01, 2018, 11:10:19 AM
Of course the rust will get worse....only takes the moisture in the air to feed it. Never known a rusty car to stop rusting just because it was moved into somewhere warmer!
I agree. They call it Cancer for a reason.
Quote from: alfaitalia on January 01, 2018, 11:10:19 AM
Of course the rust will get worse....only takes the moisture in the air to feed it. Never known a rusty car to stop rusting just because it was moved into somewhere warmer!
It will, but it will progress so slow, we'll be all long gone before you could notice... if the car is kept dry.
The only exception I can think of is when moisture gets trapped in the rust, under the carpet or under paint for example.
just my :Twocents:
very nice! i saw one in my lifetime back in the late 70's in person thats the only time ever! well other than at talladega when they have the winged day deal
Happy New Year Taxspeaker and family!
Its your car, so you do what you want with her, but I'm sure there are other Folks that don't have a Limey Bird that would love to restore her!
(That would be 'my worry' owning a rare Bird and not having the money to restore her).
If you already have a lovely Birdie, I can't see any mileage in 'busting a gut' doing another?
Resto is a ball of string scenario, its all about levels of RESTO!
To me new quarters and an engine rebuild is an acceptable level of resto for me!
To others that would be a BARE minimum and NOT acceptable!!!
The only person that it really matters to, is the 'current owner', others can have their say but ultimately, its not their 'TIME and MONEY' at stake... :Twocents:
Thanks for the comments! A lot of interesting input and varied opinions. We are slowly proceeding on step 1 and hope to get the engine out this weekend to start the rebuilding process. I continue to be unable to get a local bodyman to follow up on fixing the body and repainting it, so we are continuing to slowly work towards our own mechanical restoration, we started on the brakes over new years and will follow up on fuel lines after that, but slowly over the next several months, with a goal of running by summer.
Bob
Hello Bob,
This is beginning to have all the hallmark's of a 'double' resto, mechanical now, bodywork laters.
Once the motor is out then that's the time to do the bodywork, as any 'unibody' car is only as good as its Bodyshell.
If there are holes in the Quarter skins then its time to face-facts and say its got 'lots of rust' issues.
Find someone with a HD rotisserie and get it upside down and have a real 'butchers hook' and the rails etc.
Its lasted nearly 50 years, it ain't gonna last another 50 without proper SURGERY...
If I was in the Great US of A I would help you in a heartbeat, its not about the money, ITS ALL ABOUT THE CAR!!!
Limeys need to be saved, we are a dying breed lol... :slap:
Is this an option? only pullin ya leg BoB
Quote from: aerolith on January 04, 2018, 06:34:08 AM
Hello Bob,
This is beginning to have all the hallmark's of a 'double' resto, mechanical now, bodywork laters.
Once the motor is out then that's the time to do the bodywork, as any 'unibody' car is only as good as its Bodyshell.
If there are holes in the Quarter skins then its time to face-facts and say its got 'lots of rust' issues.
Find someone with a HD rotisserie and get it upside down and have a real 'butchers hook' and the rails etc.
Its lasted nearly 50 years, it ain't gonna last another 50 without proper SURGERY...
If I was in the Great US of A I would help you in a heartbeat, its not about the money, ITS ALL ABOUT THE CAR!!!
Limeys need to be saved, we are a dying breed lol... :slap:
Well said. :yesnod:
Quote from: ACUDANUT on January 05, 2018, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: aerolith on January 04, 2018, 06:34:08 AM
Hello Bob,
This is beginning to have all the hallmark's of a 'double' resto, mechanical now, bodywork laters.
Once the motor is out then that's the time to do the bodywork, as any 'unibody' car is only as good as its Bodyshell.
If there are holes in the Quarter skins then its time to face-facts and say its got 'lots of rust' issues.
Find someone with a HD rotisserie and get it upside down and have a real 'butchers hook' and the rails etc.
Its lasted nearly 50 years, it ain't gonna last another 50 without proper SURGERY...
If I was in the Great US of A I would help you in a heartbeat, its not about the money, ITS ALL ABOUT THE CAR!!!
Limeys need to be saved, we are a dying breed lol... :slap:
Well said. :yesnod:
face some facts: A unibody car with rustholes can still be driven and enjoyed for many years.
If it is stored dry it will not only last for 50 years but even more !
There is no doubt that a total bolt&nut resto is something nice when you look at the finished car.
But looking at Superbirds&Daytonas exspecially more than 70% of the existing cars are restored to a high level already.
So cosmetically untouched cars or cars wearing a 70s custom paint sheme are rarely seen today.
I think it would be great to leave an original paint car "as is". If it is freshened up technically it can be used and enjoyed.
No concours condition 1 is driven.
So every owner should consider HOW he wants to use it in the future, too.
Carsten
I love this story and I would vote for 1. I also found my bird in a garage in Elkhart, in. in 2003.
Bob, as said before its your car do as you wish. I am sad but feel a large relief that I now don't have to sell my soul to buy a rusty Bird haha. My plan was option 1 for a few years and have fun build up some good memories and attachment to it. Then its off to number 2 or what I call a 80's resto. I would fix the rust using new panels and paint the car and make it look great while keeping the original interior and engine compartment, well probably paint the compartment in option 1 since the motor is out. That way its not a show poodle but its a clean driver. If I may speak freely, please O' please don't do another resto mod of a rare and desirable car. I don't have a Superbird and it really pains me to see the trend lately of cutting up these cars to make resto mods out of them by people with deep pockets. If you'd like to do the resto mod thing I have a clone you can start with. Anyways I am glad to see it getting its proper due either way. :2thumbs:
That picture Aerolith-wow!
Update-we now have the engine out and will start rebuilding it in a week. The transmission is out and has been sent (with shifter) to Brewer's transmission. We have the power booster back from Booster Dewey. After 3 weeks soaking in various brake fluid and parts cleaners we were able to free up the master cylinder and have rebuilt it. The carb is partially freed up and soaking in solvent. I have sent the wiper up to Bill Meerholz. We want to rebuild every part rather than replace-they are better than the replacements, original and we know what we have inside and out.
By the way I maintain a list of parts restorers with comments, prices and contact info if anyone wants it, PM me.
We have had to pull the emergency brake arm and are trying to figure it out. We did get it unfrozen, but trying to figure out the cleaning and re-installation, this is a piece I have never worked on before.
Chris, the rust is everywhere on parts and bolts and everything is taking 5 times longer than planned. I want to rebuild, not replace and the surface rust has frozen so many things over 40 years that were unexpected. We have still been unsuccessful getting any local body people to work on it, and are still "on the list" to send it to Mark at Magnum Restoration for paint.
We bought a media blaster and will drape the car in a tent and plastic to blast the underside next week. We have removed the hitch (had to to get to the gas tank) and are finding that every brake and fuel line is rotten too, so we ordered some new ones. The seats have been recovered and are also just awaiting re-installation.
I have sent the gauge cluster to Dave Patik, but his wife is sick so t may be awhile. Rather than buy new dash bezels we are carefully re-doing them ourselves in our own shop since they are originals.
Dissassembly is almost done now, but we can't reassemble until I get the body rust fixed. As you can tell I have decided NOT to do a resto-mod. The rust issue on the car led to the obvious conclusion-it is not safe to drive it without repair, so we are doing the resto as much as we can ourselves. I will post a few pictures when I can but I travel for a living and am on my 30 day Australia/New Zealand rotation until the end of February and have left the car in the care of my boys and a friend. The mice issue has been everywhere with the biggest surprise being inside the carb (!!) and under the intake manifold. The wiring, which seemed fine, has proven to be so brittle that the safest thing here is to also replace it, which I have done on other B Bodies for 40 years, so that's what we are doing. Not sure about the headlight vacuum lines, but that is way down the road.
The only unknown now other than body work is the suspension. The front is obviously shot, and the rear springs and shackle bushings are dryrotted and brittle. Our local spring shop tells me not to re-arch the springs so until I get back we are postponing that decision because the cost of new springs is so high.
That's it for now. The problems are more than we expected, but that's ok if I can just get the bodywork fixed and live long enough to get it back together while I remember how!
Bob
Quote from: taxspeaker on December 29, 2017, 03:47:43 PM
We have laid out 4 different courses of action, listed in order of preference:
1st: Fix, rebuild or repair anything broken or safety related, rebuild the engine and drive it as the rusted hulk it is; or
2nd: Do all of the first goal and have a local body shop that we trust fix and repair the body and paint to an acceptable good quality driver; or
3rd: keep all the original stuff we can and make it an excellent driver ..., while keeping all the original parts if a purist wants to restore it after I am gone.
4th: Last choice-do a full restoration on the car. But then it would be another Bird nobody wants to drive, and that doesn't seem to be acceptable to me.
Bob
I guess #1 is OFF THE LIST!!!
Now I'm wondering if #2 and #3 will be crossed off at some point, as I think taxspeaker likes everything to be perfect. But, paraphrasing a now ex-president, "that depends on what your definition of perfect is."
Some had said, "Leave it as is, rust and all, it shows its age, but that also shows its history." It is a valid point. Others have said, "OEM, if it isn't as it rolled out of Detroit, you've come up short." That is a valid opinion too, as striving for perfection is always a worthy goal.
Looking at the Concourse OEM cars is spectacular, and the investment in them makes them closer to artwork than autos. I'm thinking, as taxspeaker did actually drive his Superbird to Alaska and back, he knows the balance. But if it can be restored to Concourse OEM, and somebody has the resources to do it, does that mean restoring it to merely spectacular isn't good enough?
A great memory was from a car show they have right here in Lakeland, the Lake Mirror Classic. It has really gotten to be a top-tier show, they even had a Tucker there one year! But several years ago, I was walking away from the show with my son, and we're going up the slight uphill on the sidewalk, and coming down right at us was a yellow Superbird!! I was telling my son about how special that car is. I didn't need to open the hood and check if the radiator cap was from an authentic Superbird radiator, or if it was from a, gasp!, '72 Valiant, and it didn't matter if "the numbers match" or not at that point, it was beautiful paint from where we were at, and the car was driving! We saw and heard it!! How often does that happen now? And he had driven it to the show for others to see a true part of automotive history. And I was always thankful to him for doing that.
So I suppose, speaking to taxspeaker, I'll appreciate your efforts no matter what choices you make.
Bob, I have a close friend here in New Castle that would be interested in discussing the paint and body work with you. He is who I will eventually turn loose on the Daytona once I take that plunge.
Quote from: alfaitalia on January 01, 2018, 11:10:19 AM
Of course the rust will get worse....only takes the moisture in the air to feed it. Never known a rusty car to stop rusting just because it was moved into somewhere warmer!
True, but there are tricks one can play to delay the further oxidation of the metal by using redox chemistry:
One trick is to remove the water from the air surrounding the car (good dehumidifier and desiccant around the car) to cut back on the rusting rate. Water is needed to create hydroxide ions from the oxygen molecules in the air (with hydrogen gas as a byproduct). This process helps to strip electrons from the iron atoms in the metal, creating what we refer to as rust.
Another is to electrically attach a sacrificial anode to the body of the car. Rusting will occur in the metal surface that is the easiest to remove electrons from. Magnesium (or zinc) loses electrons easier than iron, so it would be a good choice for an anode material when working with iron objects. Once the sacrificial anode has completely oxidized (time to replace it with a fresh one), watch out though because the iron will then start to rust again since it is no longer being protected.
Still another method is to connect the object to a electrical current in such a way as to create a continuous negative charge on the metal surface. Any electrons that become dislodged from the metal atoms will be constantly replaced with new ones.
Is not science fun?...
Not sure why you would drive/show any car with rust holes?
In the UK that's not gonna happen, as we have stringent MOT laws to prevent that.
Then there is the suspension/steering and brakes to consider.
In theory a car that can do in excess of 140mph needs to be in tiptop condition.
I was driving Charger R/T's in the 80's that were borderline safe?
I think we are forgetting the 'passage of time' with our old Mopars... :cheers:
The danger with IT is IO. 'information overload', too many ideas and there is only really one correct course of action.
They thought it would be alright after 50 years underground?
Your Limey Birdie isn't as bad as this, barns are a much better idea... :2thumbs:
Hi Bob,
I know a Superbird expert and a supersonic Birdie metalwork man too.
Yep they is in San Fernando Valley CA and they is doing birdies, all the time!
Just done this one and another one coming in a week or so.
FInally no snow-moved all 3 outside today and let them run for 45 minutes. lime one has engine and tranny out, but many repairs and rebuilds done to get it driveable-no body work though!
My favorite today
:coolgleamA: :2thumbs: good picture
Awesome! :cheers:
Reading from left to right " y outh Daytona"
Hmmm.... ;D
beautiful. simply beautiful.
Finally-the engine. We had to bore it 30-no choice. The block soaked for 3 days with no movement of the pistons, and the rod bollts were essentially welded together after 43 years of mouse pee in the cylinder walls. Dead mice found inside driver's valve cover, valley pan and inside the intake, but we are now moving forward. Drive train should finish up finally next week. No body action taken-we have car strapped down on an open trailer inside the shop. The pieces to get her safely foing are just about done.
https://youtu.be/nicnmJgqTD0
We have rebuilt(not replaced) the original gauge cluster, master cylinder, power booster, wiper motor, alternator, starter, heater box, 4-speed, and now the engine. In working on the brake pedal we found a broken clutch return spring (that big useless thing), a "frozen from rust" clutch Z-bar and the original owner's manual and delivery invoice. We have the parts to rebuild the front & rear brakes and lines, as well as the gas lines.
Glad you were able to save the engine. :cheers: Those damn mice can get into anything. I had an engine failure in a Cessna once because of a baby mouse getting sucked into the carburetor venturi. Ended up as a glider.
Any Updates :scratchchin: LEON.
crankcase mice house
Engine is now rebuilt. I don't think we would have been able to clean and drive it! Trans is also rebuilt and ready to roll. Car is now at Magnum Restoration for body and paint.
Picking up a new barn find bird tonight! New post tomorrow night.
Quote from: taxspeaker on May 27, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
crankcase mice house
Engine is now rebuilt. I don't think we would have been able to clean and drive it! Trans is also rebuilt and ready to roll. Car is now at Magnum Restoration for body and paint.
Picking up a new barn find bird tonight! New post tomorrow night.
New Barn Find :drool5: :popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn: Pictures Please ;D
More to come
This is the one that Ryan Brutt wrote about in Hot Rod last fall from "Hippie Drag Racer" Terry Sevener estate in Arkansas. No exterior changes will be made-it had the vinyl top removed 45 years ago for marketing purposes as the pace car at Birmingham AL Intl Raceway and was painted dark blue back then. Paint is not very good, but the Day 2 effect will bve left unchanged with the 1975 pinstripes and Richard Petty signature on the nose. The interior will be fixed back to the way it was new but the car will be driven as is. This is the only picture now-I am at work and after 16 hours driving yesterday and Sunday we were too tired to do anything but get it off the trailer last night.
I know the car well was here in missouri for the last Year or so
:o :coolgleamA: :2thumbs: :popcrn:
:popcrn: love some of the pin striping and period look it has
:drool5:
Engine is running & has been dynoed, trans rebuilt Here it is going to media blasting July 23
Exciting! :yesnod:
Congrats on your latest purchase, I love wing cars with neat history like that. :coolgleamA:
Looking forward to your continued progress updates!
Ah so you bought Terry's old car. Did Billy give you the owners info before Terry? I talked to him a while back.
Thanks Ryan. No, I was not provided anything other than oral piecemeal history. Anyone with info, I would appreciate back info.
Thanks
Bob
Quote from: taxspeaker on July 27, 2018, 08:32:31 AM
Thanks Ryan. No, I was not provided anything other than oral piecemeal history. Anyone with info, I would appreciate back info.
Thanks
Bob
Sent ya DM with all the info.
Back in the day, it was quite a looker.
Thanks! Sadly the paint is now quite old & faded, won't buff out.
I stumbled upon the blue Superbird at a show in Missouri in 2017. It was especially interesting to me because the parts store decal in the rear window is from my hometown on the other side of the state. My older brothers and I don't recall ever seeing the car around though. It would be fun to hear the history of the car. :2thumbs:
The side window decals are still there, and will be left. Here is the history provided to me. Nearly ready to drive-wiring is all done and tested, hope to finish re-assembling and installing heater box this week, followed by radio, carpet and front seats and off we go by next weekend. I have been in contact with previous owner's sister (owner now deceased), and with the owner prior to that in Alabama.
Car was originally Lemon Twist yellow and bought new out of Birmingham, AL by a 62 year old couple who immediately removed the vinyl top and had it painted Petty blue. A year later they decided it was too big and they traded it in. It was then sold to the guy I have been in contact with. He stripped the car to bare metal and painted it dark blue and when the wing decals came in they had the colors reversed-which he didn't notice until he put them on. They are still wrong today!
He also had the latch tray made to stainless steel and polished. He also had it pinstriped and got Richard Petty to sign the car. There is a claim, as yet unverified, that he was a friend of the guy that owned the Birmingham International Raceway, and that he was paid to act as the pace car, thus getting Richard Petty's signature. I have asked for pictures or anything. Part of the fun of the cars is the old stories.
While rewiring the car, stuck up under the dash I found a very old carton of "Peacock rubbers" which I guess he had in there for when he got lucky. Must never have got lucky because the pack is full. Still have the pack-you never know.
Funny side note: In 4 wing cars i have found old stuff as follows:
Alaska highway bird: diamond ring in diamond box (fake) and $3.87 in change
Yellow Daytona: 1970 speeding ticket and no change
Green barn find: More old s**t than you can imagine, 700 dead mice and $11.18 in change
Bluebird: box of rubbers and $4.40 in change
Maybe the guy that used to own the white bird took the fake ring to the guy that owned the blue bird with the unused rubbers and that explains the rubbers. Pushing $20 bucks in change-I will send it to Troy since we are revisiting his 8ball dream of a wing car to put in his wing car piggy bank
[quote 8ball dream of a wing car
[/quote]
I'm gonna have to get one of these 8 ball things.....I've never seen one in the uk.....but you never know....I may get lucky
great story. and awesome wing collection you have gathered.
p.s. -save your twenty bucks; look at the date on the 8 ball post.
Quote from: Aero426 on August 02, 2018, 10:49:29 PM
Back in the day, it was quite a looker.
Yes, it certainly was a looker back in the day.
Can't believe in this group of sharp-eyed guys that nobody picked up on the exact amount of change found in the Blue Bird!
I totally missed that, I guess the condoms had me thinking of other things.
Quote from: taxspeaker on August 10, 2018, 11:44:47 AM
Can't believe in this group of sharp-eyed guys that nobody picked up on the exact amount of change found in the Blue Bird!
:icon_smile_big: :icon_smile_big:
This last weekend at MCACN
Thanks to Mark and crew at Magnum Restoration for an incredible job I am sure to mess up soon by driving.
The car looked phenomenal Bob! :drool5:
Quote from: taxspeaker on November 28, 2019, 12:36:28 PM
This last weekend at MCACN
Thanks to Mark and crew at Magnum Restoration for an incredible job I am sure to mess up soon by driving.
Nice , :drool5: :drool5: had no idea
Would love to see some pics of the bottom side of the car and engine compartment. Looks nice. :2thumbs:
No underside pictures yet. Here is engine, and a picture of the coolest car there-a 70 original Hemi convertible roadrunner in "as driven" condition
Absolutely gorgeous Bob!! :2thumbs:
Wow, that really turned out nice :thumbs:
new photo from the mcacn facebook page
it's stunning, bob
Quote from: held1823 on December 12, 2019, 10:03:39 PM
it's stunning, bob
The blonde to the right certainly is. The car aint bad either.
:2thumbs:
Quote from: taxspeaker on November 28, 2019, 12:36:28 PM
Thanks to Mark and crew at Magnum Restoration for an incredible job I am sure to mess up soon by driving.
Great statement! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: