After all of the "fuel injection is the only way" posts, and a few budlights.... ive decided to poke the bear. 1 saturday. Thats it, 1 day is all it takes to set a carb up. I will put my shit old setup up against any of your throttle body injections for cold starts, performance, and throttle response. I dont even have a big stroker. Its just a stupid old thrown together 440 with a bunch of washed up race car parts slapped together. After measuring, its more of an 11:1 motor, with a solid roller 750 lift 325 advertised cam, ridiculous max wedge port heads and a ported indy intake topped with a 950 holley. Shouldnt run worth a crap according to most, but here she is. Hasnt run since my wedding in april due to all the rain. Its in the 60s here right now. Videos are back to back before the temp gauge even starts to move. Who wants to go for a low 10 second ride and tell me tbi is the way to go?
J
https://youtu.be/8_iBJxN8tBo
https://youtu.be/uzYu3XcD4Ys
https://youtu.be/WPaNalU_-uA
Some folks still swear by these too.
Im' a carb guy, old school rides need old school fuel delivery - well at least that's my take. However, for a lot of guys, Fi can be great, fit and forget, no messin with adjustments, self learning - no tuning skill required and for what I have seen, reliable. It certainly has it's place IMO. Not that I would use a TBi system, or bother with a MPi on these old engines. I would doubt the average guy would see any power gains, but I don't think that's there main benefit.
Can't argue with Joe with his set up, sounds crisp and I'm sure runs really well - something to be proud of, but carbs and tuning aren't where it's at for everyone.
Different strokes for different folks.
I've got two old cars, one with fuel injection and one with a carb and I like working on both. They each have their own benefits when properly set up. Right now I turn the key on both and they start up with no issues.
Before I switched to TBI on the charger I had the carb set up for reliability and it ran great. Had to adjust it for winter and then in summer but it always was reliable and starting it was easy. But the throttle response on the EFI is hands down better in my case. I'm sure a better carb could have gotten similar results but I like the tuning capabilities of the EFI unit on the handheld unit. And it is nice to have the a/f ratio constantly spot on no matter where I'm driving it.
I'm just glad there are options out there for mopars for whatever you decide to run. The EFI units are getting better and there are plenty of carb options as well if that's what you want to run. Whatever gets these old cars out on the roads works for me.
And no fair comparing your 600+ hp engine built for racing to the rest of our maybe 400 hp engines on throttle response. Of course your throttle response is going to be better with that kind of power and a 950cfm carb. :icon_smile_big:
John, horse and buggy vs car is a far cry from carb vs tbi... you missed the point. People always blame the carb when something isnt right. 99.9% of the time its not a faulty carb. And i dont know of too often that a carb causes a breakdown. And if it does. A screwdriver can usually fix it.
Quote from: WHITE AND RED 69 on June 15, 2018, 03:16:09 PM
And no fair comparing your 600+ hp engine built for racing to the rest of our maybe 400 hp engines on throttle response. Of course your throttle response is going to be better with that kind of power and a 950cfm carb. :icon_smile_big:
Its actually swayed towards your favor. Mine is still a 440. No stroker cranks here. My cylinder heads are bigger then most of you who have 500+ engines and my cam is twice the size and by general rule, a 440 should only run a 750, . If anyone should be at a disadvantage its me. And mine is 90% street driven for the record. We could use the wife's origonal 72 nova as an example if you like? It is just as crisp as mine, just not quite as fast.
Agreed different strokes for different folks. I love fuel injection. I tune them all the time. My gripe is as i said before, its not the carbs fault you cant tune. And its really not rocket science. Theres 1 bushing and 2 springs inside a distributor, depending on the carb youve either got squirters, cams or rods and springs and jets. And even moreso, you dont even have to go in blind. Just about every possible combination has been built by someone and the jetting amd springs and advance curve you would need to get extremely close are a google search away.
It is what it is. If you cant or dont want to get your hands dirty, sure go fuel injection. But to think a carb is junk or wont work is absurd.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on June 15, 2018, 03:44:48 PM
But to think a carb is junk or wont work is absurd.
100% agree with that. They work great, are reliable, and easily worked on. So sure, some guys who switched maybe didn't know how to tune it or possibly just got sick of tuning it. So I get your point with guys saying the carbs are junk (which I don't think I ever said and don't see very many people on this site say) but not all of us who switched are afraid to pop the hood and get our hands dirty.
I wasnt referring to anyone specific. Its just an in general as there are more and more "fuel injection fixed my problem" topics. If you want fuel injection- great, two thumbs up. Have at it. But to the poor sould who are dumping tons of cash into a system because they think they need it or are persuaded by shops just grinds my gears.
I also never understood those who are constantly tuning and adjusting. Set it and forget it. I dont change jets and cams once a car is set up. And i live in maryland where we have all 4 seasons in a 7 day period. That goes for the mild street cars to the dedicated drag cars within the fleet. No carb changes, no rocker adjustments. Set it once and go drive the car. Only exception is the 2 dedicated drag cars as the rockers get removed ever winter for storage so there is technically a once a year adjustment made. Other then that, its oil changes amd tire replacements.
I guess you have seen my post of doing things ass backwards, I went to the Fitech throttle body since it seemed to be the new it thing and the idea of it starting cold and running like my early 2000 grand cherokee's was appealing. Bought it, ran it, fooled with it and fooled with it some more and it ran ok but didn't start all that great in cold weather and even in warmer weather it seemed even worse. Decided after driving it from town bucking and jumping every so often that I was going back to my holley double pumper. One of the best decisions I made on the engine was the stealth head upgrade, that was money well spent IMO. The Fitech not so much, yes sometime's tuning a carb is tidious but once you get it tuned in it's usually good from there. After driving my car with the holley on it for a few weeks I knew I had a little lean spot off idle so I went up 3 jet sizes on the front and I think later on I went up on my accelerator pump squirters to the next size up and haven't messed with it since. Same goes for the holley on my old ford truck, put it on new and drove it for a few weeks and could tell it had a little lean spot off idle so jetted it up 2 sizes and the lean spot is gone now. I usually go up 3 sizes but I didn't have that size jet handy so I went up 2 sizes and it got rid of the lean spot pretty much and haven't looked at it since late last year. I have always been a carb guy, like the old quadrajets and I know it's a GM carb but when they are right they are very hard to beat on a mildly built engine. The holley's are kind of a love hate since some I have been able to make work great and some not so much but the eddy carbs are the same way. I have always liked doing rebuilds on carbs and making them do good again, the mid 80's GM computer command Q-jets were a real challenge but I got pretty good at them. The old ford 2 barrel carbs are easy to rebuild too. You are right Joe, just because it has a carburetor on it doesn't mean it's junk or that it doesn't run good at all.....
I dont remember your specific dilemma. Hell, cant keep track of them all. Lol. Toys are a labor of love, no matter what is under the hood. At least youve got it sorted out. :2thumbs:
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on June 15, 2018, 03:35:31 PM
John, horse and buggy vs car is a far cry from carb vs tbi... you missed the point.
No I didn't and no it isn't. And, oh, BTW, I do my TBI "tuning" from the drivers seat with the hood closed.
I just reread your post. So all we have to do is to say TBI is the way to go and we can get to ride in that car... :rofl:...I'm sure that TBI has some advantages, but I have had many cars with carbs and they do basically the same thing. Catch and Start. I have to pump the gas before cranking. They have also been responsive once the carburetor has been dialed in. So carburetors seem to work pretty well in a lot of situation. :2thumbs:
Quote from: XH29N0G on June 16, 2018, 03:20:22 PM
I just reread your post. So all we have to do is to say TBI is the way to go and we can get to ride in that car... :rofl:...I'm sure that TBI has some advantages, but I have had many cars with carbs and they do basically the same thing. Catch and Start. I have to pump the gas before cranking. They have also been responsive once the carburetor has been dialed in. So carburetors seem to work pretty well in a lot of situation. :2thumbs:
You dont even have to throw out the new catch phrase. Just come on over for a ride. Lol
Ok, I think it's time we sit down, and finally address this issue like sensible adults.
Joe, show me on the doll where the TBI touched you. :icon_smile_big:
(http://1.images.southparkstudios.com/images/shows/south-park/clip-thumbnails/season-10/1001/south-park-s10e01c03-molestation-demonstration-16x9.jpg?quality=0.8)
Lmfao
LOL, that's pretty good right there. The TBI works just like a good carburetor works. For the money spent on a fuel injection system I just didn't get the WOW effect I was looking for. At least I did trade the Fitech stuff for a good paint job on my old ford truck and it didn't cost me anything to put my holley back on and hook it back up.....
Quote from: XH29N0G on June 16, 2018, 03:20:22 PMI have to pump the gas before cranking.
I don't.
QuoteThey have also been responsive once the carburetor has been dialed in.
So, lean over fender, remove bowls/lid, change jets, reassemble, test drive, tweak mixture screws, if not good try again ad infinitum. Weather/altitude changes, do it again.
Versus let electronics do it for you.
QuoteSo carburetors seem to work pretty well in a lot of situation.
The operative term being "in a lot of"....but not all.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on June 17, 2018, 03:26:26 PM
Quote from: XH29N0G on June 16, 2018, 03:20:22 PMI have to pump the gas before cranking.
I don't.
QuoteThey have also been responsive once the carburetor has been dialed in.
So, lean over fender, remove bowls/lid, change jets, reassemble, test drive, tweak mixture screws, if not good try again ad infinitum. Weather/altitude changes, do it again.
Versus let electronics do it for you.
QuoteSo carburetors seem to work pretty well in a lot of situation.
The operative term being "in a lot of"....but not all.
If pumping the gas pedal twice to start the car is your justification for dropping 1500 bucks on injection, go for it. And i dont know of many people aside from die hard drag racers, that do constant jet changes with weather and density altitude changes. And many of those guys dont even bother unless you are heads up racing looking for every last .001 of et. A bit of a stretch there again.
I agree Joe, if your carburetor works really well then going to EFI isn't going to make that much of a difference. The Fitech had a few things I liked about it but my 850 Holley DP ran great so after all was said and done the carb out weighed the good and bad difference between the Fitech and the carb. The fitech was a little bit more responsive accelerating from cruise to part throttle but that was it. It didn't start as good as it should have cold or hot and it still had heat soak issues that should not have been there which was one of the main reasons to go with EFI. If you are going to dump 2 grand on something you want to see a big difference with go with some good prepped stealth heads or a good set of the other aluminium heads that flow really well. If you want to see a real difference in performance that is one of the steps to take. Going to EFI isn't going to be a daylight and dark difference.....
I'm a Holley carb guy but I've had MAJOR issues with a brand new Holley 670 Ultra Street Avenger.
Long story short I had an engine built and the engine builder broke in the cam (non mopar) They had troubles with the carb so sent it to the dyno guys. A couple of days on the dyno and $800 later it's still not right. The dyno guys were back and forth with Holley and were about ready give up. I think they just got it running and gave it back to me. For a carb that is $800-$1000 here I have been extremely disappointed.
Needless to say it still needs work and the engine has less than 1000 miles on it. The car basically just sits in a shed now untill I can be bothered with it.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on June 17, 2018, 08:42:38 PM
If pumping the gas pedal twice to start the car is your justification for dropping 1500 bucks on injection, go for it. And i dont know of many people aside from die hard drag racers, that do constant jet changes with weather and density altitude changes. And many of those guys dont even bother unless you are heads up racing looking for every last .001 of et. A bit of a stretch there again.
Not the only justification, just one of many.
If you don't do constant changes to compensate for conditions, then your carb isn't functioning as great as you think it is. Amazing what some people will tolerate to justify bullheadedness.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on June 18, 2018, 11:26:00 AM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on June 17, 2018, 08:42:38 PM
If pumping the gas pedal twice to start the car is your justification for dropping 1500 bucks on injection, go for it. And i dont know of many people aside from die hard drag racers, that do constant jet changes with weather and density altitude changes. And many of those guys dont even bother unless you are heads up racing looking for every last .001 of et. A bit of a stretch there again.
Not the only justification, just one of many.
If you don't do constant changes to compensate for conditions, then your carb isn't functioning as great as you think it is. Amazing what some people will tolerate to justify bullheadedness.
Are you suggesting that everyone drive around with a portable weather station and pull over everytime there is an atmospheric change? That would be about every 10 minutes. Unless you are racing in the colorado rockies and then head to florida glades for the followup race, you are splitting hairs as far as how much recalibrating is needed on the average weekend cruiser and what effect it will have on the said car.
This is the point I got out of this thread, not sure why some folks are having trouble grasping it.
"Agreed different strokes for different folks. I love fuel injection. I tune them all the time. My gripe is as i said before, its not the carbs fault you cant tune. And its really not rocket science"
Quote from: timmycharger on June 18, 2018, 12:26:02 PM
My gripe is as i said before, its not the carbs fault you cant tune. And its really not rocket science"
My case could be just the opposite.... :shruggy:
The 850 Proform on my 505ci ran great, until you shut it off on a hot day and then tried to restart within 30 min. Crappy fuel, hot temp and 5300' elevation causes vapor lock and I was tired of being stranded. Changed everything on the carb, tuned, tuned and tuned again. Same result. Slapped the Sniper on, first full day out was 97 degrees. Ran perfect, stopped for a quick bite and started again flawlessly. Knowing that plus instant throttle response is well worth the money to me.
Quote from: 303 Mopar on June 18, 2018, 01:33:45 PM
The 850 Proform on my 505ci ran great, until you shut it off on a hot day and then tried to restart within 30 min. Crappy fuel, hot temp and 5300' elevation causes vapor lock and I was tired of being stranded. Changed everything on the carb, tuned, tuned and tuned again. Same result. Slapped the Sniper on, first full day out was 97 degrees. Ran perfect, stopped for a quick bite and started again flawlessly. Knowing that plus instant throttle response is well worth the money to me.
Was the proform fed by a mechanical or electric pump?
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on June 18, 2018, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: 303 Mopar on June 18, 2018, 01:33:45 PM
The 850 Proform on my 505ci ran great, until you shut it off on a hot day and then tried to restart within 30 min. Crappy fuel, hot temp and 5300' elevation causes vapor lock and I was tired of being stranded. Changed everything on the carb, tuned, tuned and tuned again. Same result. Slapped the Sniper on, first full day out was 97 degrees. Ran perfect, stopped for a quick bite and started again flawlessly. Knowing that plus instant throttle response is well worth the money to me.
Was the proform fed by a mechanical or electric pump?
Electric - Mallory 110
Interesting that a 110 couldnt refill the bowls after a hot soak.
Quote from: 440 on June 18, 2018, 01:33:38 PM
Quote from: timmycharger on June 18, 2018, 12:26:02 PM
My gripe is as i said before, its not the carbs fault you cant tune. And its really not rocket science"
My case could be just the opposite.... :shruggy:
I tried a 670 street avenger on my 383 years back and I wasn't that impressed with the street avenger carbs. The double pumper carbs are way more responsive and easier to tune IMO. I did get my 670 running pretty good with some jetting but after going to a 750 double pumper carb I tossed the street avenger and never looked back. My 850 DP holley runs fine any time I get ready to go anywhere with my charger. It can sit for a few weeks at a time and I can pat the gas pedal two or three times and hit the switch and it will fire off. By the time I pull it out of the garage it will idle on it's own (no choke on the carb) It will idle a little low for a few mins but it will idle and once it warms up it idles the same at every stop light and stop sign. Very minimal hot start issues now and it actually starts up good in hot weather after sitting 20 or 30 mins. If the Fi tech worked as good as my carb or better than my carb it would still be on there so i'm just not sold that EFI is 100% better than a good running carburetor.....
I've owned some pretty dam fine runn'in carbs..... and I have one right now.
2 pumps cold.... vroooom.... runs on high idle, kick it down and go.
NO pumps hot.... just turn the key and 1 rotation... vrooom.
I have a buddy going NUTZ trying to get his Sniper tbi on his 454 anywhere even close ? I think he "tunes" from his driver's seat as well ?
Some people can't open a box of crackers without help; no wonder the folks on the tech lines have little patience.
Wait, i thought they were plug and go, self learning.... :scratchchin:
So did I.....
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on June 19, 2018, 12:23:13 PM
Wait, i thought they were plug and go, self learning.... :scratchchin:
In a perfect world they are supposed to be. Myself
and many, many others have gone over Buddy's Sniper installation and can't find anything wrong there, even as far as Voltage drops.
The system runs fine for a couple weeks, learns, good response, etc., etc., then just when a guy is getting fairly impressed with it, and thinking "it's all good now"..... then
NO START ! You have to crank & crank & crank with the pedal partially depressed until fires and revs to the moon, then slowly try to back off down to an Idle during multiple restarts, as it dies again each time, until a guy can get it to come down to Idle.
Then it seems to start it's 150 km "re-learn" process again.
No amount of re-plumbing, re-wiring adding grounds, new hand held controllers, and $400 donaro's twice now at the local FI guru's shop have been able to cure it, a couple weeks in it will die again. Fuel logs were uploaded to Holley by the guru.... no help.... "software" problem.... update after update.... another 2-3 weeks and
NO START with mr ugly to get going again.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on June 19, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
Some people can't open a box of crackers without help; no wonder the folks on the tech lines have little patience.
And I believe some the people on the Tech Lines ? actually
ARE the same people who can't open that box of crackers without help ! that found "jobs"
Quote from: Challenger340 on June 20, 2018, 08:41:53 AM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on June 19, 2018, 12:23:13 PM
Wait, i thought they were plug and go, self learning.... :scratchchin:
In a perfect world they are supposed to be. Myself and many, many others have gone over Buddy's Sniper installation and can't find anything wrong there, even as far as Voltage drops.
The system runs fine for a couple weeks, learns, good response, etc., etc., then just when a guy is getting fairly impressed with it, and thinking "it's all good now"..... then NO START !
You have to crank & crank & crank with the pedal partially depressed until fires and revs to the moon, then slowly try to back off down to an Idle during multiple restarts, as it dies again each time, until a guy can get it to come down to Idle.
Then it seems to start it's 150 km "re-learn" process again.
No amount of re-plumbing, re-wiring adding grounds, new hand held controllers, and $400 donaro's twice now at the local FI guru's shop have been able to cure it, a couple weeks in it will die again. Fuel logs were uploaded to Holley by the guru.... no help.... "software" problem.... update after update.... another 2-3 weeks and NO START with mr ugly to get going again.
I was kidding. Lol.
Quote from: Challenger340 on June 20, 2018, 08:41:53 AM
update after update.... another 2-3 weeks and NO START with mr ugly to get going again.
Stand by for the shock of your life...............some products come out of the box bad and the makers are often reluctant to admit it and replace them. Don't condemn the concept because of that.
And, BTW, the self-learning feature is in addition to the need for initial programming.
Another 3 weeks seemed GREAT this time, now Mr. Ugly reared it's head again.
I'm having a BLAST !
it is afterall a 454 Chevy, so as you can imagine I am having a field day with common car-guy reliability commentary ?
"more miles on it vertically up & down on the hoist for repairs, than it has horizontally going down the road under it's own power"
Does "GMC" stand for Gotta Mechanic Coming ?
Not mine....but here ya go.
TBI Fuel Injection Advantages
•It is less expensive than using other types of fuel injection systems.
•It is easier to clean, maintain and service because there are fewer parts.
•It is cheaper to manufacture than a port injection system and simpler to diagnose. It also does not have the same level of injector balance problems that a port injection system might have when the injectors are clogged.
•It greatly improves the fuel metering compared to a carburetor.
•You do not have to make any changes to the TBI intake manifold. You also do not have to change the throttle linkage. Instead, use the existing linkage, air cleaners and carbs to install the system.
•It is also capable of logging data and can be programmed for ignition and fuel. The TBI system is that it learns and understands your habits when driving so it can easily map out your actions and the performance of the engine.
TBI Fuel Injection Disadvantages
•It is almost the same as a TBI carburetor wherein the fuel is not equally distributed to all the cylinders. This means that the air/fuel mixture injected differs for each cylinder.
•It can cool the manifold much faster causing the fuel to puddle and condense in the manifold. The possibility of condensation is much higher since the fuel travels longer from the throttle body to the combustion chamber.
•It is a wet system and the mixture of fuel is still based per cylinder.
There is nothing wrong with a well set up carb....ive owned many carbs cars and bikes (many with multiple cards to balance) myself and yes I was not always playing with the setting to make it run. The problem to me is that its very old tech. It does the job (like that horse and cart).... but TBI is a better more accurate way of getting the fuel in......in a more metered and demand matching way. And lets face it....you would not take the horse over the Charger....why? Because its very old fashioned and there are better ways of getting places now. You pays your money....you takes your choice.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on June 19, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
.....no wonder the folks on the tech lines have little patience.
I've been enjoying this thread. I have nothing meaningful to add, but I couldn't let this one go.
This has been my experience, 100% of the time. I call the tech folks only to figure out that I know more than they do. I'm sure it is simply a reflection of their experience and compensation.
Quote from: alfaitalia on July 01, 2018, 06:25:36 AM
Not mine....but here ya go.
TBI Fuel Injection Advantages
•It is less expensive than using other types of fuel injection systems.
•It is easier to clean, maintain and service because there are fewer parts.
•It is cheaper to manufacture than a port injection system and simpler to diagnose. It also does not have the same level of injector balance problems that a port injection system might have when the injectors are clogged.
•It greatly improves the fuel metering compared to a carburetor.
•You do not have to make any changes to the TBI intake manifold. You also do not have to change the throttle linkage. Instead, use the existing linkage, air cleaners and carbs to install the system.
•It is also capable of logging data and can be programmed for ignition and fuel. The TBI system is that it learns and understands your habits when driving so it can easily map out your actions and the performance of the engine.
TBI Fuel Injection Disadvantages
•It is almost the same as a TBI carburetor wherein the fuel is not equally distributed to all the cylinders. This means that the air/fuel mixture injected differs for each cylinder.
•It can cool the manifold much faster causing the fuel to puddle and condense in the manifold. The possibility of condensation is much higher since the fuel travels longer from the throttle body to the combustion chamber.
•It is a wet system and the mixture of fuel is still based per cylinder.
There is nothing wrong with a well set up carb....ive owned many carbs cars and bikes (many with multiple cards to balance) myself and yes I was not always playing with the setting to make it run. The problem to me is that its very old tech. It does the job (like that horse and cart).... but TBI is a better more accurate way of getting the fuel in......in a more metered and demand matching way. And lets face it....you would not take the horse over the Charger....why? Because its very old fashioned and there are better ways of getting places now. You pays your money....you takes your choice.
You forgot one TBI Fuel Injection disadvantage in the list ?
You LOSE HP & Trq when you remove the Carburetor and install the TBI SystemNot alot,
but on the Engine Dyno we typically see a 15-20 HP and 20-25 Ft/Lbs Trq
LOSS on a 500" Stroker using 230-240 @ .050 Cams, versus whatever Carburetor we remove.
Yep, Bob is right about the HP and torque loss. I don't have a dyno or know anyone around here that does but when you know your car really well you know when it doesn't feel the same. I could tell I had lost some HP when I had the Fitech on there. I knew immediately when I put the carb back on it that it got some of it's grunt back. 20 to 30 HP is alot to lose when you are spending upwards of 2000 bucks for something. I would rather spend that much on a good set of heads and gain 30+ HP and torque myself......
[quote author=alfaitalia link=topic=132783.msg1651866#msg1651866
There is nothing wrong with a well set up carb....ive owned many carbs cars and bikes (many with multiple cards to balance) myself and yes I was not always playing with the setting to make it run. The problem to me is that its very old tech. It does the job (like that horse and cart).... but TBI is a better more accurate way of getting the fuel in......in a more metered and demand matching way. And lets face it....you would not take the horse over the Charger....why? Because its very old fashioned and there are better ways of getting places now. You pays your money....you takes your choice.
[/quote]
What transmission is in your car? I hope its not an old fashioned 727 or rh-od cause there are better ways of getting places now.
Quote from: Challenger340 on July 01, 2018, 01:56:28 PM
You forgot one TBI Fuel Injection disadvantage in the list ?
You LOSE HP & Trq when you remove the Carburetor and install the TBI System
Not alot,
but on the Engine Dyno we typically see a 15-20 HP and 20-25 Ft/Lbs Trq LOSS on a 500" Stroker using 230-240 @ .050 Cams, versus whatever Carburetor we remove.
That is a huge drop that I don't believe is typical. There was only 3 hp and 4 ft/lbs tq difference on my 505 with a Lunati 231/239 @.50 cam switching from an 850 Proform to a sniper.
https://youtu.be/R2F_d9_NoZY
Quote from: Challenger340 on July 01, 2018, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: alfaitalia on July 01, 2018, 06:25:36 AM
Not mine....but here ya go.
TBI Fuel Injection Advantages
•It is less expensive than using other types of fuel injection systems.
•It is easier to clean, maintain and service because there are fewer parts.
•It is cheaper to manufacture than a port injection system and simpler to diagnose. It also does not have the same level of injector balance problems that a port injection system might have when the injectors are clogged.
•It greatly improves the fuel metering compared to a carburetor.
•You do not have to make any changes to the TBI intake manifold. You also do not have to change the throttle linkage. Instead, use the existing linkage, air cleaners and carbs to install the system.
•It is also capable of logging data and can be programmed for ignition and fuel. The TBI system is that it learns and understands your habits when driving so it can easily map out your actions and the performance of the engine.
TBI Fuel Injection Disadvantages
•It is almost the same as a TBI carburetor wherein the fuel is not equally distributed to all the cylinders. This means that the air/fuel mixture injected differs for each cylinder.
•It can cool the manifold much faster causing the fuel to puddle and condense in the manifold. The possibility of condensation is much higher since the fuel travels longer from the throttle body to the combustion chamber.
•It is a wet system and the mixture of fuel is still based per cylinder.
There is nothing wrong with a well set up carb....ive owned many carbs cars and bikes (many with multiple cards to balance) myself and yes I was not always playing with the setting to make it run. The problem to me is that its very old tech. It does the job (like that horse and cart).... but TBI is a better more accurate way of getting the fuel in......in a more metered and demand matching way. And lets face it....you would not take the horse over the Charger....why? Because its very old fashioned and there are better ways of getting places now. You pays your money....you takes your choice.
You forgot one TBI Fuel Injection disadvantage in the list ?
You LOSE HP & Trq when you remove the Carburetor and install the TBI System
Not alot,
but on the Engine Dyno we typically see a 15-20 HP and 20-25 Ft/Lbs Trq LOSS on a 500" Stroker using 230-240 @ .050 Cams, versus whatever Carburetor we remove.
Don't agree with that at all. Our local dyno guy says that a well set up TBI on and large capacity engine such as a 440 typically give between a 8 and 10 horse gain. This is due to more accurate fuel metering and better atomisation of the fuel.
This is from a UK shops website compareing carbs with TBI;
Power and performance. Again,its a win, because fuel injection and modern electronic controls are more accurate, fuel delivery can be tuned to match driver demand. Carburetors are precise, but not accurate, in that they cannot account for changes in air or fuel temperature or atmospheric pressure.
Why should is produce less power. If you choose the right size TBI it will flow at least the same air and will add exactly the right amount of fuel for that amount of air. At the very least it would be no less power.
The O2 sniffer doesn't lie..... usually....
Here are some videos of Dyno testing carbs versus TBI.
Heres a TBI vs 750 Dyno test on a 427 Ford. The TBI made more power, but to be fair, I don't believe the carb was anywhere near peak tune.
https://youtu.be/kzbA5TsXJpY
Here's one tested on a Mopar big block. The carb makes 10 more hp at wide open throttle.
https://youtu.be/3Zj0RMPKquw
Here's a Fitech vs carb on 71 Chevelle. The TBI wins this round, and makes more power at mid-range. (Which is probably more important on a street driven vehicle.)
https://youtu.be/xyX39EX45Rw
Dual carb vs Holley dual TBI, on Hemi. TBI wins this one.
https://youtu.be/Teok9NATPTk
My takeaway from those is that in the real world, (for a street driven car), any difference in power is negligible and completely meaningless. Now if you live your life a quarter mile at a time, then by all means, I understand the hangup on power.
I'm two years into TBI, and I love it. Whenever multiport becomes more affordable, I'll try it out, but for now, im very happy with my setup.
Quote from: JR on July 02, 2018, 08:49:39 AM
The TBI made more power, but to be fair, I don't believe the carb was anywhere near peak tune.
So, the discussion goes full circle. Even if the carb did make a few more horses, what it takes to get it to "peak tune" compared to the TBI is noteworthy.
I agree, John, see my edit on bottom. I'll take efi all day.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on July 02, 2018, 02:29:55 PM
Quote from: JR on July 02, 2018, 08:49:39 AM
The TBI made more power, but to be fair, I don't believe the carb was anywhere near peak tune.
So, the discussion goes full circle. Even if the carb did make a few more horses, what it takes to get it to "peak tune" compared to the TBI is noteworthy.
Still havnt shown me where tbi is "better". My carb fires right up without a choke, it is at optimum tuning and didnt take anymore time to get there then tbi with a laptop. No laptops required. No downloads. Just a screwdriver is all i needed. I have less electronic parts and less to go wrong. And noteworthy is the money i didnt spend on fuel injection. Used carb- 100 bucks. Overhaul kit- 40 bucks. Done. Runs 10s on tire and cruises anywhere i want. No bogs no coughs no hesitation. Crisper throttle then any tbi out there. The cost for tbi isnt worth it to me over a good carb. The "gains" do not outweigh the cost. And its not just my "race" 440. My wifes 72 nova is a stock low compression 350. It runs the same as far as response and starting. Its not rocket science.
What is noteworthy is what "peak tune" on a fuel injection. While they are self learning, it is only to a point. You still need to write your own programs when a modified car is on the table. Been there done that. The can tunes are not going to give you maximum of anything. If you have not purchased the software to write your own programs, then you are not utilizing your fuel injection to its maximum potential either, even throttle body.
The thing that worries me with electronics is the increasing monitoring by 3rd parties.
It's only a matter of time till everyone has something plugged into their OBD port to monitor their driving. Insurance companies already have a "black box" they plug into users cars to monitor their policy holders, and from what I've read following serious crashes they are able to dowload data from your car.
No thanks !!
If something goes wrong with TBI your usually left stranded and getting home on a tow truck. Carbs you can usually limp back home.
I'll sick to my dumb technology
I wonder how come NASCAR must use a carbureted engine?
Quote from: 440 on July 02, 2018, 10:32:49 PM
The thing that worries me with electronics is the increasing monitoring by 3rd parties.
It's only a matter of time till everyone has something plugged into their OBD port to monitor their driving. Insurance companies already have a "black box" they plug into users cars to monitor their policy holders, and from what I've read following serious crashes they are able to dowload data from your car.
No thanks !!
If something goes wrong with TBI your usually left stranded and getting home on a tow truck. Carbs you can usually limp back home.
I'll sick to my dumb technology
Onstar has had that capability for years.
Quote from: dual fours on July 03, 2018, 12:04:56 AM
I wonder how come NASCAR must use a carbureted engine?
And yet Pro Stock converted to EFI 2 years ago.....
Quote from: 303 Mopar on July 03, 2018, 07:23:02 AM
Quote from: dual fours on July 03, 2018, 12:04:56 AM
I wonder how come NASCAR must use a carbureted engine?
And yet Pro Stock converted to EFI 2 years ago.....
Prostock is dying. Nhra in general is dying. The prostock move to injection along with other rule changes was corporate ploy to try and bring back the old days of prostock's fanbase. It did nothing other then piss off the teams. Funny you brought it up as they all want to go back to carbs.... but it really has nothing to do with this conversation
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 02, 2018, 05:53:48 PM
Still havnt shown me where tbi is "better".
Of course not, it's call being "bullheaded". ::)
Quote from: John_Kunkel on July 03, 2018, 02:21:57 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 02, 2018, 05:53:48 PM
Still havnt shown me where tbi is "better".
Of course not, it's call being "bullheaded". ::)
Not following. My carb does everything your tbi does, is simpler, and cost less. While your tbi may hold a fractional margin of advantage with efficiency, there are not any i will see in day to day use. Those who claim big mpg gains and big dyno gains had a royaly screwed up setup to start with. Kind of like k&n claiming 20 hp gains by just dropping in an air filter element on a honda civic..... My 92 5.0 mustang picked up 3 mph and almost 4 tenths in the 1/4 going from a tuned multiport injection to a carb setup. I had a big cam, ported trickflow heads, 24lb injectors, mass air, throttle body, ported gt40 intakes. You name it, i had it. Just couldnt get more out of it. Changed chips and tunes, spent a fortune on programs, and yep, it had self learn abilities with several fuel and spark tables to go through..... dropped a victor intake, 750 holley, holley blue pump, and done. Picked up all over the track data. Car was no slouch injected by any means. A 10 second daily driver is impressive back then. But the gains going carb'd with no disadvantages was better. It got faster, i saw no change in economy. With 4.56s and a t5 i still got just over 20mpg on the highway and ran 93 octane. I threw the stock cats on it and it passed tailpipe emissions every year as well.
Well if you don't TBI think offers you any gains.....how about this! https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-35920 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-35920). Looks pretty good value too.....if its any good.
In this thread there seem to just be two types. Those who welcome change and improvements it brings....and like it or not a TBI will offer improvements in drivability, economy, emissions etc etc.....and those who like the tradition of a carb. (I have car engines with both to be clear.....but my Charger cannot run a carb) Those folks arguments don't seem to not stack up so good and seem to be mostly emotive rather than factual. I think that Joe would put up a good reason to have a carb even if a TBI dyno chart showed a 50 horse gain throughout the range and got 40 to the gallon!!! The one unavoidable fact is that a carb CANNOT meter fuel as accurately as FI over the full rev range. I'm not saying your (or whoever's) carb does not run well....but there will be improvements to be had somewhere with TBI. Obviously the average guy....so perhaps someone without CHJ or others carb expertise.....will always get a bigger improvement from TBI than the "experts"....as they would not have had the skill to set up there old carb as well as you guys.....but that's surely the point....most don't have that skill these days.....so a near plug and play TBI system is going to appeal to the masses.....and in all probability they will gain a noticeable improvement.
For me, I live in a place with moderate humidity. It rarely gets over 40% here. It also rarely gets below 30 degrees. My carbureted car runs fine in cold weather once it reaches operating temperature. I've driven in 106 degree weather and it restarts fine. The advantages to me would be fuel economy and it would take me a LONG time to earn that back when I only drive this car about 1000-1500 miles per year.
Quote from: alfaitalia on July 04, 2018, 04:06:13 AM
Well if you don't TBI think offers you any gains.....how about this! https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-35920 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-35920). Looks pretty good value too.....if its any good.
In this thread there seem to just be two types. Those who welcome change and improvements it brings....and like it or not a TBI will offer improvements in drivability, economy, emissions etc etc.....and those who like the tradition of a carb. (I have car engines with both to be clear.....but my Charger cannot run a carb) Those folks arguments don't seem to not stack up so good and seem to be mostly emotive rather than factual. I think that Joe would put up a good reason to have a carb even if a TBI dyno chart showed a 50 horse gain throughout the range and got 40 to the gallon!!! The one unavoidable fact is that a carb CANNOT meter fuel as accurately as FI over the full rev range. I'm not saying your (or whoever's) carb does not run well....but there will be improvements to be had somewhere with TBI. Obviously the average guy....so perhaps someone without CHJ or others carb expertise.....will always get a bigger improvement from TBI than the "experts"....as they would not have had the skill to set up there old carb as well as you guys.....but that's surely the point....most don't have that skill these days.....so a near plug and play TBI system is going to appeal to the masses.....and in all probability they will gain a noticeable improvement.
Im all about improvements. Traditional? Have you seen my car? Lmao. I tune injected cars and have had plenty of my own. The point is cost versus gains on mild street cars. You just said it yourself, those who see noticeable gains, had a screwed up system to start with by butchering it themselves. A 50 hp gain by bolting a throttle body on? Please. Maybe with 2 plug wires unhooked on the carbd dyno. Never said efi wasnt more efficient. Just not worth the money for the gains you may or may not see. The link you just posted is 2,000 dollars and it includes no parts of the fuel system. So 3 grand for what? 1 mpg at best fuel economy? Is 3 grand worth that to you? If so, great. But to say my arguement for a correctly tuned carb is not factual shows your bias.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 03, 2018, 03:09:38 PM
Not following. My carb does everything your tbi does, is simpler, and cost less.
You're the one who started this thread to crow about how great your carb is and now you seem to be upset because not everybody worships at the altar of the carburetor.
You claim "My carb fires right up without a choke, it is at optimum tuning" but those two claims are at odds. It's well known that cold fuel doesn't atomize very well and therefore causes a lean mixture which needs to be enriched with a choke to run properly. If your car fires right up without a choke, then the mixture has to be overly rich which doesn't equate to "optimal tuning" or your car defies the laws of physics.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on July 04, 2018, 02:09:28 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 03, 2018, 03:09:38 PM
Not following. My carb does everything your tbi does, is simpler, and cost less.
You're the one who started this thread to crow about how great your carb is and now you seem to be upset because not everybody worships at the altar of the carburetor.
You claim "My carb fires right up without a choke, it is at optimum tuning" but those two claims are at odds. It's well known that cold fuel doesn't atomize very well and therefore causes a lean mixture which needs to be enriched with a choke to run properly. If your car fires right up without a choke, then the mixture has to be overly rich which doesn't equate to "optimal tuning" or your car defies the laws of physics.
Upset? Not hardly. Yes, it is tuned properly. What do you want, plug readings? It will fire right upl, It will not idle on its own at 1st as i clearly showed in the video in the 1st post. Most street cars have a choke plate so that is irrelevant. But in my case, is 45 seconds of run time before it will idle really worth a 3,000 dollar investment in fuel injection? Not to me considering the cam has more duration at half then most guys at advertised. My carb is no different then anybody elses. They are what you make them, just like your beloved throttle body. Plenty of problems with them as well with owners who dont know what they are doing.
Oranges have lots of vitamin C, and, when I look at the chart of vitamin-rich fruit, apples aren't even on there.
An apple a day keeps the doctor away, oranges won't.
Oranges have to be peeled to eat, apples dont.
Apples have more fiber than oranges.
:smilielol:
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 04, 2018, 04:16:55 PM
It will fire right upl, It will not idle on its own at 1st.
Uh-huh. ::) Mine idles from the gitgo.
QuoteMy carb is no different then anybody elses.
Wrong, it's tuned by you which makes it kinda special. :smilielol:
QuoteThey are what you make them, just like your beloved throttle body.
Except I tune mine from the drivers seat, no laptop, just a controller that fits in a shirt pocket and cost nowhere near $3K.
Mine doesnt idle right away because it has no choke plate. If i had a plate on mine, it would idle. But it does idle in a minutes time. By the time i fire it up, back it out and the garage and up the driveway to the house, its idling on its own. I see no need to convert based on that. I knowingly installed a carb without a choke. It is not an issue for me.
There is nothing special about me or my carb john. Its not hard to set them up and you are well aware of that. If a person cant handle popping a bowel off to change jets or swap an accelerator pump squirter then so be it. But the tbi doesnt install itself so you still have to get dirty under the hood and hook up fuel lines before you fire up your handheld device. Can tunes that come with it will not give you an optimum performance either. The adaptives built in cannot possibly have enough storage to have fuel tables for every combo.
Pardon me for assuming that when you said "starts right up" you meant starts right up and idles without nursing the throttle.
Shucks, you could throw the carb in the trash and pour gas from a Coke bottle down the manifold and it would "start right up" and run 'til the Coke bottle goes dry.
It's pretty obvious that you'll go to extremes to rationalize the use of a device that's one step above the Coke bottle so enjoy your horse and buggy.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on July 06, 2018, 12:14:22 PM
Pardon me for assuming that when you said "starts right up" you meant starts right up and idles without nursing the throttle.
Shucks, you could throw the carb in the trash and pour gas from a Coke bottle down the manifold and it would "start right up" and run 'til the Coke bottle goes dry.
It's pretty obvious that you'll go to extremes to rationalize the use of a device that's one step above the Coke bottle so enjoy your horse and buggy.
Unless you have cut the body off of your cars and stuck them on a modern chassis, you are no better then I. Priding yourself on 1970s fuel injection technology is also no better seeing as its nothing more then an electric coke bottle.
Now THAT is funny...!
Anytime I restart mine when hot without touching the gas, or within up to about an hour, it starts right away(not even 1/2 a crank), and although can be a little iffy for 20-30 seconds, it will stay running and eventually come up to idle speed.
IMO, Pretty good for a 50 year old Engine(UN-rebuilt) and original Carb(rebuilt).
just say'in....
FI doesn't have a exclusive lock on starting and running without touching the Pedal, lotsa Carb deals will as well when setup properly and the Throttle Shafts aren't buggered, although granted probably not as well idling right away as FI.
If I want a good Idle right away after starting asap from my Carb, all I have to do is just "touch" the pedal for a second = stabilized right away.
It's not the one's who like EFI and the one's sticking to their outdated carburetor's. I tried the EFI on my charger for three months I fought with no start cold issues and high idle issues and other issues that I wasn't having with my old trusty carburetor. After $1500 bucks of nothing I decided to go back to my old trusty carb. I can start my charger after it sits with three pumps of the pedal and it comes to life quickly. I have no choke on mine so after it starts I treat it like it has a fast idle and hold the rpm's up between 1200 and 1500 rpms for maybe 30 to 40 seconds and after that it will idle on it's on just fine. No other surprises and and it runs the same every time I drive it. I just don't see spending upwards of 2 grand for basically something you have to fight with when the carburetor is already there and most of the time it works just fine. It's not a daylight and dark difference to me. I am entitled to my opinion and I am and always will be an old carb guy when it comes to my charger. Now my late model jeeps are all fuel injected but that is how they came and most of the time they work well but for my old car the carburetor is king over EFI.
This has been twisted into a carb vs tbi debate and that was not the intention. I have never said that a carb was better then efi. I have clearly said that it is not worth the money to convert a carb to tbi for limited gains. The whole point was to show those who think carbs wont start easy and are not crisp that if you set them up, they are great. Those who are arguing about it, have plenty of great knowledge and already know that. A properly tuned carb will be crisp and reliable and does not require constant changing. Is a tbi a littler more accurate- of course. But not that you are going to notice in seat o pants meters and the dyno will almost always lean to the carb in max power.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 10, 2018, 11:36:31 AM
The whole point was to show those who think carbs wont start easy and are not crisp that if you set them up, they are great.
Once again your idea of "starts easy" differs from some of us. ::)
Quote from: John_Kunkel on July 10, 2018, 02:38:10 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 10, 2018, 11:36:31 AM
The whole point was to show those who think carbs wont start easy and are not crisp that if you set them up, they are great.
Once again your idea of "starts easy" differs from some of us. ::)
Again john, we all know i have no choke plate on my car. I went for max horsepower. Yet regardless of that it will fire after sitting a month within 2 crank revolutions cold. Once warmed up it doesnt even make a turn and fires off and idles. How much easier does it need to start? I guarantee i would lose hp putting a throttle body on it. And to gain what? 30 seconds sooner that i can take my foot off the throttle? How many of you actually fire your car up cold and take off before letting the oil warm up some? I can start mine up, drop it in gear and drive off if i wanted to but i prefer to let the oil pressure come down some before heading up the road making a pass with the needle buried. Ive also said before as well, i have other more tame street cars with choke plates. They fire right up and will idle on their own immediatly on the stock style chokes. Now are the tailpipe emmisions as clean as with a throttle body? Of course not. So if you want to go all prius on me, have at it with your tbi. But the point is still made that a carb can offer trouble free fun and shows those guys that are having problems with their carbs that they can and do work.
I had more cold start issues with the Fi tech than I ever had with my carburetor. I removed the choke flap on it too so there is no choke at all and it still starts up and runs fine quickly. Not a debate really, I just prefer my trusty old carburetor to an aftermarket EFI system that didn't seem to be reliable to me. I'm sure they are working on improving them as we speak but the carb I have on there make's me smile when the back two barrel's open up and I can feel the secondaries open up and really let the engine come to life. I have always been a carb guy anyway, I have rebuilt Q-jets, carter AFB's and AVS's and the edelbrocks, and holley's of all description and usually can get them running really good. Just something I have always been into and I wasn't scared to try something new like the EFI set up but after it didn't perform like I expected then I was back to what I knew best. I called the tech line about 235467564 times ;) and really didn't get any answers to my questions except for try this setting or try that setting. None of which made any difference when I changed the settings. At least if I turn a screw on the carburetor it will respond to an adjustment.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 10, 2018, 05:14:20 PM
But the point is still made that a carb can offer trouble free fun
And riding a horse can be a lot of fun.
Someday, if I'm feeling really insecure about my choices, I'll start a thread titled "What EFI can do for you".
This is a forum for discussion and I think it's fair to make a case for how well carbs perform compared to EFI. As someone who has been back and forth on this, I appreciate the insights. EFI continues to improve and I'll probably switch to it at some point. Even so, a sorted carb still performs well and is still a reasonable thing to stick with. Especially considering the cost difference and the initial set up requirements of EFI. But mileage may vary and to each his own.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on July 11, 2018, 12:18:32 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on July 10, 2018, 05:14:20 PM
But the point is still made that a carb can offer trouble free fun
And riding a horse can be a lot of fun.
Someday, if I'm feeling really insecure about my choices, I'll start a thread titled "What EFI can do for you".
I am feeling pretty down in the dumps at how crappy my dinosaur runs. In the meantime, im going to go ride my pony into market and get some fixins for supper.
Lol....Ill admit that I had to look "fixins" up!
LOL, i'm not saying that EFI isn't a good thing but it wasn't for my taste. I like carburetors and I know how to operate fine with them. Everything has it's pro's and con's and for me the carb had more pro's than con's compared to the Fi tech. If you are having good luck with EFI then that's awesome and i'm glad it's working for you and if your old school and like your trusty old carb then I can relate to that a little bit better. It all comes down to preference and I prefer my holley carb.......
I must say I am enjoying this thread...
Me too. And for the record, i have no quarrels with john. Nothing but respect for the man. :cheers:
Tuning?
Is getting a carb in good tune easy? Nope. Is getting an FI system in good tune easy? Nope. Is tuning either easy if you are good at it? Yep!
Which is easier to tune on a mostly stock engine?
Which is easier to tune on a cammed up modified street hot rod engine?
Which will give better performance and economy with a basic tune?
Which will give better performance and economy with the right tune?
If you were building a hot rod for a customer who doesn't wrench on cars and wanted a classic with good manners and able to go on trips, trouble free, makes good power, good economy, turn the key and go in any weather, which would you choose to install and tune on his car, FI or carb?
Quote from: Paul G on August 25, 2018, 10:00:50 AM
Tuning?
Is getting a carb in good tune easy? Nope. Is getting an FI system in good tune easy? Nope. Is tuning either easy if you are good at it? Yep!
Which is easier to tune on a mostly stock engine?
Which is easier to tune on a cammed up modified street hot rod engine?
Which will give better performance and economy with a basic tune?
Which will give better performance and economy with the right tune?
If you were building a hot rod for a customer who doesn't wrench on cars and wanted a classic with good manners and able to go on trips, trouble free, makes good power, good economy, turn the key and go in any weather, which would you choose to install and tune on his car, FI or carb?
Before ethanol fuel a carb worked great, the fuel we have down here is not carb friendly , so I would have to say EFI. I know this to be a fact on the fuel issues, Buc ee's was selling Non ethanol 92 fuel, got my Charger dialed in running great, they quit selling it, & now getting the tune to work when it is hot is almost impossible, but I am also VERY picky on my tune up.
I am with you on that CDR. Seems like I have to tweek the Holley at every change of season. I to am picky, too picky in most cases.
Let the car sit for a couple weeks and the float bowls are dry. I can smell fuel around the engine compartment. It is just part of the carb generation.
I helped a friend install a Terminator system on his 71 Challenger. During start up the thing kept running worse. It was a bear till we figured out the TPS died. Holley was quick to send out another TPS. Car runs pretty good. I would not be happy with it as it is right now. But he is because he is not as picky as me and doesnt care to dive in to the system and tweek it to perfection like I would.
Self learn is great, but you have to give it some parameters and a target to achieve. Get those wrong and the system will be crap.
Another friend has a 70 RR 426 Hemi with a new crate engine. Started with a Holley 850 true double pumper. Didnt like how it was running. Felt it should have more power. I suggested he take it to a tuner and get it dialed in. That means carb and ignition. Instead he put an Edelbrock EFI on it. Then removed the EFI because he had nothing but trouble. He eventually put a holley 750 on it. He says it runs pretty good now. He hates the EFI, hated the Holley 850. But he didnt tune either of them. I think the 750 vacuum secondary carb being smaller is why he feels it runs better.
Weird. Even a bone stock 426 hemi should run better with the 850. Elephants are hungry.
"Runs better" is a judgment call depending on driving style; of course, the 850 should run better at WOT but for cruising the 750 will have better throttle response and general drivability.
In my experience the hemis responded better overall with more carb. Theyve got compression, cam and heads from the factory. Hell, they run great with the 2 4 setup in stock form. We are not talking about motorhome slugged 440s in this case.
The crate 426 hemi's are not really built crazy IMO, they are only like 9.0 on compression and the cam seems pretty mild if I remember the spec's correctly. The recommended carb was a 750 vacuum secondary I think. If the engine was a bit more aggressively built the 850 would be a better choice. I know it's a hemi but still it's only 426 cubic inches. I have an 850 holley on my 493 ci and it seems to work really good on there. Some minor jetting and a couple of bigger pump squirters and it seems to be dialed in pretty good. I have seen other 500 inch builds with 950's on them and that's fine if they run good that way. If it works good then it work's for me doesn't matter if it's a good carb or Efi. My experience so far is the carb responds better for me, maybe I didn't give the Fi tech a chance and i'm sure if I wanted to spend another 1000 bucks on an in tank fuel pump then it would have worked out better but that wasn't my original plan so back to the carb it was for me.
What can a carb do for you?
Well , they can get me down the road for tens of thousands of miles or track ,1/4 at a time. I have had a Themoquad, an Eddy 800, a Street Avenger 770 and a Quickfuel 780 They all made good power. They all had some drivability issues. Not enough accelerator pump with the Carters and seasonal retuning with the Holleys. Certainly not issues enough to spend $2000 dollars and lots of time changing things. So why did I switch to EFI? Am I crazy?.... That goes without saying.
I wanted to learn something new. This has forced me to learn the ways of the electron, the ECU and the sensor. Not just my scanner said this, youtube said this, so change this part to make the check engine light go away.
Now I have some idea what a KPA, IAC and a 3x3 matrix is. If I wanted simple I would have gone Chevy (do have a Z28) , but I'm Mopar.
Is EFI the greatest thing I have done to the car? Not even close. That aluminum headed 440 I built and installing an overdrive transmission where number one and two. EFI might be number three. Time will tell. Two hobby car seasons and about 8000 miles so far. A few tuning issues, but it is pretty good and getting better :Twocents:
Well, I'll wade into this one a little bit. With a caveat, I didn't want the EFI for max performance.
Being 39 years old, I grew up with computers, and my first vehicle was fuel injected, so was my first motorcycle. Come to think of it, every vehicle I've ever owned was fuel injected. This put my carb experience at a nice even zero when I bought my Charger. It was a running/driving car, and a decent 10 footer at the time. A couple pumps and a light foot on the accelerator were all it took to start it. Throttle response wasn't that good, WOT was fine-ish, and it would vapor lock on hot starts. And the garage would stink of gas for a couple days after parking it. All pretty much par for the course for an old car in a less than stellar state of tune.
The smell of gas alone was all the reason I needed for ditching the carb(I have more expensive cars, whose interiors share the same airspace as the Charger). I also have basically zero interest in learning how to troubleshoot/tune/rebuild a carb. My Dad could do all those things, but he is no longer here.....
Feel free to take a couple stabs at my man card for not caring to ever pick at a carburetor, won't bother me. But I assume the others' like me are a major customer stream for FI purveyors?
Quote from: darbgnik on October 04, 2018, 10:20:57 PM
Well, I'll wade into this one a little bit. With a caveat, I didn't want the EFI for max performance.
Being 39 years old, I grew up with computers, and my first vehicle was fuel injected, so was my first motorcycle. Come to think of it, every vehicle I've ever owned was fuel injected. This put my carb experience at a nice even zero when I bought my Charger. It was a running/driving car, and a decent 10 footer at the time. A couple pumps and a light foot on the accelerator were all it took to start it. Throttle response wasn't that good, WOT was fine-ish, and it would vapor lock on hot starts. And the garage would stink of gas for a couple days after parking it. All pretty much par for the course for an old car in a less than stellar state of tune.
The smell of gas alone was all the reason I needed for ditching the carb(I have more expensive cars, whose interiors share the same airspace as the Charger). I also have basically zero interest in learning how to troubleshoot/tune/rebuild a carb. My Dad could do all those things, but he is no longer here.....
Feel free to take a couple stabs at my man card for not caring to ever pick at a carburetor, won't bother me. But I assume the others' like me are a major customer stream for FI purveyors?
No need to revoke man cards. That was not the point of the thread. The bantor between myself and john is all in good fun. I have nothing but respect for the man. As to your reason for swapping to fuel injection- of course. It makes sense. You had little knowledge of carbs and did not care to learn them. Why would you keep a carb'd engine then? It fit your bill and there is nothing wrong with that.
I still havnt figured out the gas smell in the garage bit. I have 4 cars in the garage, 2 race cars, 1 street strip, and one all origonal car, and there is 0 odor of fuel in there.
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 05, 2018, 11:28:54 AM
No need to revoke man cards. That was not the point of the thread. The bantor between myself and john is all in good fun. I have nothing but respect for the man. As to your reason for swapping to fuel injection- of course. It makes sense. You had little knowledge of carbs and did not care to learn them. Why would you keep a carb'd engine then? It fit your bill and there is nothing wrong with that.
I still havnt figured out the gas smell in the garage bit. I have 4 cars in the garage, 2 race cars, 1 street strip, and one all origonal car, and there is 0 odor of fuel in there.
Admittedly, I don't know why, but assumed it was whatever amount of fuel left in the carb upon shutdown, evaporating?
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on September 03, 2018, 07:05:22 PM
In my experience the hemis responded better overall with more carb.
Responded at WOT or just driving around? Every time I've changed to a smaller carb I notice improved response in normal driving.
Quote from: John_Kunkel on October 05, 2018, 02:12:40 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on September 03, 2018, 07:05:22 PM
In my experience the hemis responded better overall with more carb.
Responded at WOT or just driving around? Every time I've changed to a smaller carb I notice improved response in normal driving.
Overall. Same goes with my max wedge. The carbs are quick and crisp on it. Took ALOT of fine tuning to get them there with the crossram. And in that case, a big single carb would actually make more hp then the crossram, thats a proven fact on the dyno and track. Now again, apples to oranges in some case comparisons as i have alot more compression then most guys on here do and the overall package is different but it works extremely well and as a factory car, it gets the wow factor and still turns impressive times being stock parts.
Quote from: darbgnik on October 05, 2018, 01:10:14 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on October 05, 2018, 11:28:54 AM
No need to revoke man cards. That was not the point of the thread. The bantor between myself and john is all in good fun. I have nothing but respect for the man. As to your reason for swapping to fuel injection- of course. It makes sense. You had little knowledge of carbs and did not care to learn them. Why would you keep a carb'd engine then? It fit your bill and there is nothing wrong with that.
I still havnt figured out the gas smell in the garage bit. I have 4 cars in the garage, 2 race cars, 1 street strip, and one all origonal car, and there is 0 odor of fuel in there.
Admittedly, I don't know why, but assumed it was whatever amount of fuel left in the carb upon shutdown, evaporating?
Your comparing a bad performing carb with a new FI system, so your going to see a major improvement. If you had a well tuned carb with no driveability issues the difference would not be that great. My 850 double pumper starts runs like a FI system, AFAIC. No gas smell when its parked in the garage, the only smell after a drive is the smell of rubber. I'm not saying FI is not a good system but a carb is not all that bad either.
Nothing against F.I., go for it if you have the time to install/modify fuel lines and can afford it.
For the most part the F.I. systems run great, and the power losses going to F.I. from a Carb are minimal (meaning you won't feel the power loss in seat of pants)
That said,
NOTHING wrong with a well tuned/working Carburator, which I think is the main problem for so many ? who then believe "no such thing" exists ? I've seen LOTS of complaints here on this site about poor starting/running Carbs.
From personal experience,
I think the factory Carburetor setups were really good, ran well, and were basically trouble free.
Our 69 R/T is still such a bone stock setup complete with 4618S AVS 750 cfm Carb, and being original unrestored/un-rebuilt it is best left "as-is".
I can let the Charger sit 3 months, crank it for 10 seconds to get the fuel up again, then pump the gas pedal a few times to set the Choke and prime it, Crank again and away it goes on high idle(1700-1900 rpm)..... run a few minutes and lightly tap the pedal down to a "medium" idle(1,000-1,100 rpm), let it run there until warmed into operating range(5-7 minutes), tap the pedal again and it idles down "ready to go".
Subsequent restarts throughout the day require nothing ! I can reach in through the window(no pedal) and turn the key even 3 hours later, 1/2 a crank and vroom, fires right away.... away it goes all by itself.
I've shown guys this starting characteristic at a few show-n-shines after sitting for hours, met with absolute dis-belief and head scratching, and at the last Mopar "only" show I had a crowd of guys come back about an hour later with their friends in tow calling BS for another "demo".
I could have made money on that bet easy-peasy.... because like I said only 1 hr later I don't think it was even 1/2 a crank.... vroom.
Granted, It takes a couple of seconds for the idle to stabilize itself again, but the fact remains no operator imput req'd except give the key a quick turn, by leaning in the window while standing outside.(but easier now as an old fart to SIT in the Car with my feet left outside)
I have found on the AVS Carb, that moving the accelerator pump arm to the middle hole as best responsiveness devoid of any bog outa the hole(a little extra squirt), except on cooler days below 50* F where some quick stabbing for extra fuel is best if the tires hold from a stop.(no spin)
Quote from: Challenger340 on October 09, 2018, 09:01:43 AM
Nothing against F.I., go for it if you have the time to install/modify fuel lines and can afford it.
I think the people raving about how their engines never ran so great as it did with simply bolting on EFI and letting it self learn did not have their carb and ignition tuned very well before they switched.
The cold start advantage of EFI is only once a day for about 30 seconds. Unfortunately I only drive the Charger about 100 days a year if I am lucky. An electric boost pump can refill you carb after sitting for a few days and does not need to be run the rest of the time. ( OK , turn it on at the drag strip and Nascar track)
My Quickfuel carb required only minor tuning out of the box. Combined with an air/fuel ratio gauge you can keep a pretty good eye on it.
The EFI's dash board mounted inside the car and its ability to data log are great tuning bonuses. I am still learning them , but beats trying to get spark plugs out of a hot engine with headers or having someone ride along to watch the A/F ratio gauge going 100 mph.
My Father yelled at me more than once for fixing something that was not broke. If he was around today I would probably not tell him I put EFI on the Charger.
Buy a good set of headers and plug changes are easy. I can get all of the plugs out hot in a matter of minutes and mine are 2 1/8 primary tubes.
Quote from: Back N Black on October 08, 2018, 06:56:15 PM
Quote from: darbgnik on October 05, 2018, 01:10:14 PM
Admittedly, I don't know why, but assumed it was whatever amount of fuel left in the carb upon shutdown, evaporating?
Your comparing a bad performing carb with a new FI system, so your going to see a major improvement. If you had a well tuned carb with no driveability issues the difference would not be that great. My 850 double pumper starts runs like a FI system, AFAIC. No gas smell when its parked in the garage, the only smell after a drive is the smell of rubber. I'm not saying FI is not a good system but a carb is not all that bad either.
So maybe you guys can educate me on the fuel smell..... where does the fuel in the float bowl go once the car is shut off? :shruggy:
And you telling me FI is a major improvement over a poorly tuned carb is no revelation, as I spelled out as much in my post. Which was kind of my point, I didn't want to learn how to rebuild or tune a carb. Pointing out how well a properly sized/tuned/maintained carb works is irrelevant to someone like me who was going to go to fuel injection anyway. With the thousands I spent on sheetmetal, bodywork, and paint on this car, what's an extra grand for fuel injection? A spit in the ocean really?
The fuel in the float bowls just sits there after shutdown. It will slowly evaporate. It evaporates faster while the carb is hot after shut down. OEM carbs pre 1971 and aftermarket carbs vent to the surrounding air. Later OEM carbs vented to a storage canister and the vapors where burned on the next engine run being drawn back into the base of the carb like a PCV valve. Modern gasoline seams to be blended for F. I. cars. Combined with the alcohol content it evaporates faster then it did back in the 60's. We drove them every day back then, so they did not dry out as often. A carb bowl has to vented to atmospheric pressure for the carb to meter fuel properly.
I have not noticed the fuel draining or evaporating from my float bowls. my carb has the windows and I can see it there for months (in winter) and week or two in summer after shutting down (the shorter time is just because that is the time between drives). I also haven't noticed a fuel smell in my garage and basement. I used to notice a fuel smell when I had the car running rich at idle. This makes me wonder if what I was smelling before was unburnt fuel hanging around (but I suppose it could be my nose) :shruggy: I don't have anything against FI, but I like the carburetors I have used too. It sounds like there are somethings still to be worked out with the FI aftermarket products, but it also sounds like they work very well for many.
Quote from: flyinlow on October 09, 2018, 11:46:52 AM
I think the people raving about how their engines never ran so great as it did with simply bolting on EFI and letting it self learn did not have their carb and ignition tuned very well before they switched.
THis exact same thing exists in regards to guys that buy those aftermarket front suspension kits. They spend $5000 and then brag about how great the car feels compared to what it handled like before.....when the front suspension was all original and worn out.
Quote from: Kern Dog on October 14, 2018, 12:21:56 AM
Quote from: flyinlow on October 09, 2018, 11:46:52 AM
I think the people raving about how their engines never ran so great as it did with simply bolting on EFI and letting it self learn did not have their carb and ignition tuned very well before they switched.
THis exact same thing exists in regards to guys that buy those aftermarket front suspension kits. They spend $5000 and then brag about how great the car feels compared to what it handled like before.....when the front suspension was all original and worn out.
Hahaha, this is obvious, yet doesn't make them incorrect.
I've always thought the investment in trying to make an old marshmallow handle like a modern sports car was a fools errand. Aim for modern economy car solidity and braking repeatability? Sure. Not that difficult or expensive to do, even based on the original design. But a modern sports car was designed to be just that. Strap in a full tubular front end, 4 link rear, frame connectors, torque boxes, disk brakes, and still get eaten alive by a 15 year old Miata on any twisty road........
I've always thought that buying a modern sports car was the easiest way to get modern sports car handling. Sure, if you have a ton of disposable money and want to burn it up trying to make a muscle car handle like a sports car for the challenge of it, you can do that. But spending 5 times the money for 90% of the result isn't exactly cost effective. It is cool though.
Another example of a well tuned carb. This is on a friend's 64 olds 455. Pretty close to bone stock with exception of a holley red pump and an electric choke. It was 38 degrees here yesterday morning when i started it for this video.
https://youtu.be/NnTIuDmCD3M