I've seen a variety of numbers claimed for these two models, as well as the number within each model equipped with Hemis. It seems to me that as the numbers are small, the values are high, and the current market is global that all cars no matter where they were sold originally should be included in the count.
(My apologies if this subject has been beaten to death on the Forum previously, but when I entered a search nothing meaningful came up)
Thanks Everyone,
1969 Charger 500 = 580 total
1969 Charger Daytona = 503 total
Quote from: 6bblgt on June 30, 2017, 12:22:07 AM
1969 Charger 500 = 580 total
1969 Charger Daytona = 503 total
or if you subcribe to the original 500 production number of 392 , there are two schools of thought on it
Thanks Moparstuart and 6bblgt. Those are the figures I've usually seen. Three more related queries.........
1) Why do some support 392 and others 580 for the Charger 500 build number?
2) How many Hemis thought to reside (from factory) under hoods of each of Charger 500s and Charger Daytonas?
3) Does anyone have more details (including production number) on something called a 1966 Charger NASCAR Replica model? I understand it helped get a different tail spoiler NASCAR eligible.
Thanks,
McSilver
See my sig for links to spreadsheets on publicly documented cars.
Quote1) Why do some support 392 and others 580 for the Charger 500 build number?
There is a publicly shared letter from Chrysler saying there were 392 cars. It's said there is another official list with more cars, but it's not publicly available. Until it is, the 580 figure is mostly regarded as a footnote to the 392 number.
All in all, I think the documentation in the registry Homer assembled is far more interesting.
I agree, I think the Registry will shed light on the numbers.
From the ratio of surviving Daytona's vs total number produced, if you apply the same ratio to 500's, with 303 documented in the registry, the 580 number has credence.
Daytona = 500 counting the converted "prototype" XS29 D. Reeker Daytona (there are 3 duplicates on the 503 VIN ship list)
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?
500 = 580 cars on the VIN ship list (there could be issues similar to the Daytona list) but until GG shares his list or another surfaces it's 580
the 392 number is based on an invoice or similar from Creative Industries, nothing about it states total or end of 500 production
I can account for more than 400 500s
Quote
I can account for more than 400 500s
yet no desire to aid the registry? i hope at least the aero clubs have record of them all.
galen sitting on his alleged list is almost understandable - he is in it for the money, not the benefit of the hobby. his is also a name that has tarnished itself, for those aware of recent history. his sitting on any list is nothing but ego. galen notwithstanding, what is the point of information/photos/etc, if not to educate and hopefully grow interest?
owner "privacy" is a non starter, as chrysler was the owner of every one of them with regard to simply gathering vin information to determine production totals.
500 cars were required by Nascar. Why build 580?
What about the story of sending cars by the inspectors twice, since they didn't make 500 of the 500! Not true?
More Daytonas survived than 500s because they look "special".
Special Interest Auto had a wing car article in 1979 where the numbers were extrapolated based on known cars, at that time. Later, it was found out to be off on all of the figures.
How many of you remember, "70 hemi Daytonas were built"? (not true, actual number is way lower !!!)
Talk is cheap on 500 production. Until people are ready to share their data with the registry it will stay that way.
I'm also in the camp that there are probably around 500+/- based on what is publicly known and assumed survivorship. There are also the cars that are not publicly known: There are two 500's around here that I'm pretty sure are are not on any public radar. Perhaps someday I'll add them to the public factual data, assuming the owner's allow me. There are certainly more out there.
There is nothing to substantiate the 392 number. If I recall, it is a response letter written by Chrysler customer service. How they arrived at that number is not known.
They HAD to make 500 cars to satisfy ACCUS. They had to prove the cars had been built.
You have a letter from Bill France to Ford referencing a list of 540 cars.
You have the Galen list saying 500+ cars. (I do not need to see the list to believe it.)
Maybe they only counted the XX29 cars and not the XS29 cars. Rick :Twocents: :shruggy: :soapbox:
Quote from: held1823 on July 01, 2017, 06:42:14 AM
Quote
I can account for more than 400 500s
yet no desire to aid the registry?
which one? I have & do "aid" registries - but it needs to be a two-way street
Rick has a good point. :yesnod:
Quote from: odcics2 on July 01, 2017, 07:38:31 AM
What about the story of sending cars by the inspectors twice, since they didn't make 500 of the 500! Not true?
I believe that "story" is Mercury SPOILER II based - a lot full of Cale Yarborough & Dan Gurney Specials both SPOILER & SPOILER II (aero) claimed to be all SPOILER IIs
RE: Mercury Spoiler II Count......
I've read the account from those who were present about some of the 392 Mercury shown more than once to NASCAR inspectors..........though I also understand Kevin Marti supports more than 500 Spoiler IIs, though again is the underlying data "public info for scrutiny"? Could both be correct with more Spoiler IIs completed after the NASCAR inspection? I don't know the answers but they are interesting parallels to the Charger historical debates.
Does anyone know more on this Mercury topic?
McSilver
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 12:30:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on July 01, 2017, 06:42:14 AM
Quote
I can account for more than 400 500s
yet no desire to aid the registry?
which one? I have & do "aid" registries - but it needs to be a two-way street
i agree 100%. it should be a multi-lane expressway. i'm not intending to single you out, and have seen you offer a wealth of information in the past, and not just wing wise. none of us are getting any younger. you would think that people would WANT as accurate and as complete of a history as possible to be out there. documentation and photos kept in a shoe box buried in the closet are worthless, in the end
between two different wing clubs, the fledgling registries here, and the good number of aero experts that frequent this board, you would think that to be a shared goal. time after time, you see members step to the plate to help others out, without expecting anything in return. i have little doubt that if those who truly care about these cars would pool their efforts, we would find a significant number of "lost" cars, are accounted for.
i doubt the little daytona spreadsheet i have would reveal anything new, but you're welcome to a copy of it. it's been a few years since i've added to it, and i believe anything found in it would already have been added to the registry here.
Quote from: mcsilver on July 01, 2017, 02:09:57 PM
RE: Mercury Spoiler II Count......
I've read the account from those who were present about some of the 392 Mercury shown more than once to NASCAR inspectors..........though I also understand Kevin Marti supports more than 500 Spoiler IIs, though again is the underlying data "public info for scrutiny"? Could both be correct with more Spoiler IIs completed after the NASCAR inspection? I don't know the answers but they are interesting parallels to the Charger historical debates.
Does anyone know more on this Mercury topic?
McSilver
The Mercury number quoted in the old days was 353. But with Marti having access to what was the Ford warranty database, that number has been proven false. They built 500+. Spoiler IIs had a specific DSO (7024), so it would not be possible to add in W nose Cyclone Spoilers.
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 12:30:40 PM
Quote from: held1823 on July 01, 2017, 06:42:14 AM
Quote
I can account for more than 400 500s
yet no desire to aid the registry?
which one? I have & do "aid" registries - but it needs to be a two-way street
For the record: many, including many here in this thread, have helped me with the open registry.
Some with their own private lists have been given this info by owners on the condition they don't share it. Some that helped contacted those owners and asked if they would reconsider and then forwarded the info. Keeping that trust is important.
Page 15 240 Charger 500s newspapers clipping
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7862.325.html
Quote
For the record: many, including many here in this thread, have helped me with the open registry.
Some with their own private lists have been given this info by owners on the condition they don't share it. Some that helped contacted those owners and asked if they would reconsider and then forwarded the info. Keeping that trust is important.
you just touched on what i see as being the major hurdle to putting together a definitive database - some of the owners themselves, and keeping the "trust". the ironic thing would be if some of them are no longer even the owner of the cars being shrouded in secrecy. back when i worked on gathering info with the idea of building a searchable database, i was dumbfounded by the lack of those willing to contribute. it seemed more like a competition to see who could collect the most secretive amount of information, than a willingness to compile an accurate history.
the vin and fender tag info that a registry gathers has absolutely nothing to do with personal information. these lists contain info from when a car was first built and Chrysler was still the owner. registries do not record or reveal where a car is, fifty years after the fact, nor who might have owned it during that time. i speak as one of the very few that might be identifiable by information about a specific car when it was new, as i imagine fewer than 5% of them are still with the original owners. My name and vin on every post I make shows my lack of concern for that. These are typically among the owners most willing to share the history. Those of us with facebook see many long time owners sharing their knowledge there, as well.
i get that some people are just reclusive, and many are concerned about security. what i don't get is how them allowing a registry to record that their car came with a console or a tachometer, jeopardizes either of those traits or concerns.
i get that the clubs have spent many years, and many dollars, gathering their info. i don't get why they are not the ones at the forefront of pushing for the correct information to be out there.
i personally believe that a flashy daytona website, one where anyone could see how many f8 cars came with a green interior and fm radio, would drive interest higher, but i get that we all have different ideas of what could benefit the hobby, and perhaps keep it alive for generations to come.
i hate that, in the end, as the true enthusiasts die off, none of this even matters, that these machines will eventually become newer versions of a model T.
I collect archive ads and try to match it to its I
Owner
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,76764.0.htm
And try to find ownership back history s
The 500 lists 79-89
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_3660.jpg)
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/101_3661.jpg)287970 is car #501
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,76676.msg861219/topicseen.html#msg861219
I also located actual ads for daytona and see if they matched ship list :Twocents:
There also a 1979 Car Collector article on wingcar vin sequences :Twocents:
The wingcars & 500 vin numbers dictated from the 1979 archive article as written it says All known true charger 500s identification numbers are XX29*9B10000-XX29*9B260000 Daytonas 280000-480000 superbirds140000-182000
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/October79Wingarticle.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/dta.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Annie75414/Untitled-Scanned-01-1.jpg) 2 210 daytonas 210708 210719 coincedence there both from Ohio
Is this shipping list available publicly? The GG Decode paper work on my car stated that it was sold out of a dealer ship in my state. Using the local Mopar club I was able talk to the Dodge service manager for this area during the 60s. Had become a Dodge Dealer later in life. Turns out the Dealer that GG stated on the document did not exist in 1969. That dealership formed in mid 70s. When I confronted them with this information, I was told that my car was not specifically on the "shipping List", but they had heard information that is where the car came from. Why something like that would be put on the documents and signed as truthful is baffling.
On maxwedge.com they have dealership. Listed and years and location
http://maxwedge.com/dealerships/
http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/scat/scat-pack-dealers.html
If someone wants to make the detailed daytona information public, I own www.69dodgedaytona.com URL (website address) and would contribute it to the cause, but only if it is a public website.
Bob
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 02, 2017, 04:40:34 AM
Page 15 240 Charger 500s newspapers clipping
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7862.325.html
understand what is being stated - the car went officially on sale 9/19/68, by early December: 240 were built at Hamtramck MI, shipped to/and converted by Creative Industries & delivered to a Dodge dealership (tracking a completed build and sale, as far as Chrysler Corp. was concerned).
QuoteDec. 12-14, 1968 - Southern Racing Public Relations meeting ..... A list of 240 Charger 500 models and dealers that got them was provided to Lin Kuchler.
and solving possible duplicates due to typos/poor handwriting proves difficult & time consuming :brickwall:
Charger 500:
XX29J9B164092
or
XX29J9B164192
IMO - both do not exist :Twocents: 9B164192 is a well known former GSD car - what info is out there on the other HEMI 500 VIN?
Why do folks want to keep their VIN numbers secret? :shruggy: They are easily seen by looking through the windshield, and can't be tracked to owners personal details from there. Are they afraid someone will try and copy it, and create a duplicate car with the same VIN? :slap:
:popcrn: :popcrn:
I don't know the reasons that people have for the secrecy
but I've heard of ZERO problem/issues/other from the 1960-1965 Sonoramic Commando, D500, Max Wedge, HEMI VIN list books compiled by Darrell Davis
:scratchchin: unless knowing how many hi-compression Max-Wedge convertibles were built, is a problem for anyone?
here is that letter stating 392...from Chrysler Engineering and Research Office in 1972 replying to a customer letter...
:2thumbs: & there it is
even though it is WRONG!
Quote from: richRTSE on July 04, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
here is that letter stating 392...from Chrysler Engineering and Research Office in 1972 replying to a customer letter...
Nice :drool5:
There was brochure 69 500 only with a hemi
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 04, 2017, 06:13:24 PM
There was brochure 69 500 only with a hemi
correct, early literature listed the '69 Charger 500 as HEMI ONLY. the first ~40 Charger 500 VINs are HEMI (6 weeks into production)
the first 440HP 4bbl Charger 500 wasn't "scheduled" until the middle of September '68
Quote from: nascarxx29 on July 04, 2017, 06:13:24 PM
There was brochure 69 500 only with a hemi
And a follow up brochure saying also available with 440. Not available with vinyl roof and luggage rack though... :2thumbs:
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 04, 2017, 03:32:15 PM
:2thumbs: & there it is
even though it is WRONG!
:iagree:
Just say no to 392.
I am sure this has been asked before but the document that said there was only 392 made how is this wrong, is there more documentation that has surfaced since 1972? Still learning the history of these cars so thank you for any help.
Quote from: white on July 05, 2017, 05:59:44 PM
I am sure this has been asked before but the document that said there was only 392 made how is this wrong, is there more documentation that has surfaced since 1972? Still learning the history of these cars so thank you for any help.
That's the basis behind this whole thread and on-going discussions on others. There are known cars whose VIN # isn't on the list, stories of folks with other lists documenting other 500's in excess of 500 cars, high survival rates of cars in the new database, credible members on this forum with info on other cars not published elsewhere. All adds to the element of mystique and intrigue around 500's, and curiosity levels piquing. The only official info we have is for 392... but IMO that number is not accurate for the reasons above. :2thumbs:
Thank you C500 for the info!
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 01:42:18 AM
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?
The only one of which I'm aware is 355109. It's a known car, and owned by a DC.com member.
There is another missing VIN in the middle of a string of sequential numbers, 410792 - but on the Dealer Invoice List that VIN is shown as being cancelled from production. Who knows if that one exists or not (probably not??). It's not one I have seen or heard about.
In addition to the aforementioned duplicate VINs, the Shipping List is also mucked up with MIA car #s 92 & 115.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=68275.0
Lists job numbers for cars from 926100 to 927499 which notes 400 units.But subtracted 927499-926100 equals 1399.For 500 and Daytona total of builds?
Daytonas not found on regular shiplist like jim fosters Daytona 355109 are seen on this listing
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=49421.60
Quote from: C500 on July 05, 2017, 08:48:10 PM
Quote from: white on July 05, 2017, 05:59:44 PM
I am sure this has been asked before but the document that said there was only 392 made how is this wrong, is there more documentation that has surfaced since 1972? Still learning the history of these cars so thank you for any help.
That's the basis behind this whole thread and on-going discussions on others. There are known cars whose VIN # isn't on the list, stories of folks with other lists documenting other 500's in excess of 500 cars, high survival rates of cars in the new database, credible members on this forum with info on other cars not published elsewhere. All adds to the element of mystique and intrigue around 500's, and curiosity levels piquing. The only official info we have is for 392... but IMO that number is not accurate for the reasons above. :2thumbs:
So someone has a list of these others, that total above 392? The current list is about 305. Not all have data filled in. Since this list includes data of folks who saw a car in the 80s, though it may or may not exist anymore? Do we have any published document with a number close to or above 392?
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=8829.100
Charger 500 (a real disappointment at high speed ovals) 580 built.
Charger Daytona, greatest car ever built in the history of Dodge, 503 built.
Errmm, that don't make sense???
I think its either 383, 392, 400, 413, 426, 440 etc., but never 580...possibly 572 but that is a 4.500, bore and stroke lol...not Nascar legal.
My C500 is Dec 19th and the last 440-C500 made in 1968.
Even on the last day of C500 production, Mother Mopar was making typo errors on them.
Vin tag XX, dash tag XX, block XS, title from Florida XS too...go figure.
If they were making those mistakes at the factory and records office, what chance do we stand nearly FIFTY years laters...
Aerolite
Quote from: aerolith on July 07, 2017, 01:41:40 PM
Charger 500 (a real disappointment at high speed ovals) 580 built.
Charger Daytona, greatest car ever built in the history of Dodge, 503 built.
Errmm, that don't make sense???
I think its either 383, 392, 400, 413, 426, 440 etc., but never 580...possibly 572 but that is a 4.500, bore and stroke lol...not Nascar legal.
My C500 is Dec 19th and the last 440-C500 made in 1968.
Even on the last day of C500 production, Mother Mopar was making typo errors on them.
Vin tag XX, dash tag XX, block XS, title from Florida XS too...go figure.
If they were making those mistakes at the factory and records office, what chance do we stand nearly FIFTY years laters...
Aerolite
:2thumbs: Welcome
Quote from: aerolith on July 07, 2017, 01:41:40 PM
My C500 is Dec 19th and the last 440-C500 made in 1968.
Even on the last day of C500 production, Mother Mopar was making typo errors on them.
Vin tag XX, dash tag XX, block XS, title from Florida XS too...go figure.
If they were making those mistakes at the factory and records office, what chance do we stand nearly FIFTY years laters...
Aerolite
welcome! :2thumbs:
what evidence do you have that your car was the last "made"?
your 500 was "scheduled" 12/19/68, when was it built? did it leave Creative before or after the Christmas holiday?
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 01:42:18 AM
Daytona = 500 counting the converted "prototype" XS29 D. Reeker Daytona (there are 3 duplicates on the 503 VIN ship list)
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?
Quote from: hemigeno on July 06, 2017, 08:49:19 AM
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 01:42:18 AM
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?
The only one of which I'm aware is 355109. It's a known car, and owned by a DC.com member.
There is another missing VIN in the middle of a string of sequential numbers, 410792 - but on the Dealer Invoice List that VIN is shown as being cancelled from production. Who knows if that one exists or not (probably not??). It's not one I have seen or heard about.
In addition to the aforementioned duplicate VINs, the Shipping List is also mucked up with MIA car #s 92 & 115.
So it it then correct that there is a list of 503 Daytona VINs, but actually a total of 500 Daytonas produced? Does #355109 make up for the missing #410792? And, with the prototype, is that legally counted as a Daytona actually produced by Dodge? Or is it 499 Daytonas and one prototype conversion?
And does this count the 50 Daytonas produced for Canada? Or does that bring the total to 550?
Is there any further explanation with "MIA car #s 92 & 115?" Were they not produced, thus reducing it by two, or is it some other theory?
My old friend Galen said back many moons ago that Dec 19 1968 was the last day of production for R/T's destined for the Creative upgrades.
I was told that 248662 was the last one taken from the production line for C500 duties, but that has been changed by modern records.
Still believe my 440ci 4-speed dana car is the last non-hemi C500 built?
First or last or somewhere in between, it don't matter, she is still 'one of 26' built for racing C500's which in my book is kinda RARE!!! :2thumbs:
Aerolite
Quote from: ksquared on July 07, 2017, 09:18:12 PM
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 01:42:18 AM
Daytona = 500 counting the converted "prototype" XS29 D. Reeker Daytona (there are 3 duplicates on the 503 VIN ship list)
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?
Quote from: hemigeno on July 06, 2017, 08:49:19 AM
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 01:42:18 AM
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?
The only one of which I'm aware is 355109. It's a known car, and owned by a DC.com member.
There is another missing VIN in the middle of a string of sequential numbers, 410792 - but on the Dealer Invoice List that VIN is shown as being cancelled from production. Who knows if that one exists or not (probably not??). It's not one I have seen or heard about.
In addition to the aforementioned duplicate VINs, the Shipping List is also mucked up with MIA car #s 92 & 115.
So it it then correct that there is a list of 503 Daytona VINs, but actually a total of 500 Daytonas produced? Does #355109 make up for the missing #410792? And, with the prototype, is that legally counted as a Daytona actually produced by Dodge? Or is it 499 Daytonas and one prototype conversion?
And does this count the 50 Daytonas produced for Canada? Or does that bring the total to 550?
Is there any further explanation with "MIA car #s 92 & 115?" Were they not produced, thus reducing it by two, or is it some other theory?
I have the original list that had 385 cars on it. Yes, it wasn't complete but that was all we had in the early 90s.
That list has the Canadian cars on it. (vins start with 414)
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7862.0.html
Quoteshe is still 'one of 26' built for racing C500's
Would you mind elaborating what you mean by this and source of the info? Never heard of this before....
Hi fellow Aero's.
We all know the hatred Folks have for 'STICK' cars even here in the UK, (in the land of Stick cars), they are never liked, especially in a fifty year old American two-ton Automobile, with manual steering gear!
Yep I have owned several, two 69 Superbee's (one a SIXpac) and a stunning 70 Cuda bigblock stickeroo car!
Drove them all the time in the 80's and 90's in London Town UK, until I went drag racing and had to sell them, boohoo... :slap:
So I am pleasantly surprised to see '26' 440 and '27' 426-hemi STICK C500's were ordered.
How many have survived the rigours of life, as they were obviously bought by RACER FOLKS!
As an avid GTX fan as well as a historic-NASCAR fan, its interesting to see the different build styles of these cars.
My 69-C500 has a spartan interior with a gearstick and a rev-counter.
My 71-GTX is loaded with every conceivable 'creature comfort', with AUTO.
Both are extremely fast but I would sure pick the Charger for doing 200mph in... :D
I've had the pleasure of driving many Mopars over the years, some mine some belonging to others.
The greatest being a 67 GTX four speed HEMI car, in triple black... :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
It don't come any better than that... :notworthy:
Yep deffo built for racing, my 248662 C500, no radio, no aircon, no console/cup holder, no flip up lights, just clear glass and a plastic steering wheel.
No creature comforts here, AT ALL... :drive: :drive: :drive:
Aerolite
Quote from: odcics2 on July 09, 2017, 06:37:53 AM
Quote from: ksquared on July 07, 2017, 09:18:12 PM
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 01:42:18 AM
Daytona = 500 counting the converted "prototype" XS29 D. Reeker Daytona (there are 3 duplicates on the 503 VIN ship list)
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?
Quote from: hemigeno on July 06, 2017, 08:49:19 AM
Quote from: 6bblgt on July 01, 2017, 01:42:18 AM
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?
The only one of which I'm aware is 355109. It's a known car, and owned by a DC.com member.
There is another missing VIN in the middle of a string of sequential numbers, 410792 - but on the Dealer Invoice List that VIN is shown as being cancelled from production. Who knows if that one exists or not (probably not??). It's not one I have seen or heard about.
In addition to the aforementioned duplicate VINs, the Shipping List is also mucked up with MIA car #s 92 & 115.
So it it then correct that there is a list of 503 Daytona VINs, but actually a total of 500 Daytonas produced? Does #355109 make up for the missing #410792? And, with the prototype, is that legally counted as a Daytona actually produced by Dodge? Or is it 499 Daytonas and one prototype conversion?
And does this count the 50 Daytonas produced for Canada? Or does that bring the total to 550?
Is there any further explanation with "MIA car #s 92 & 115?" Were they not produced, thus reducing it by two, or is it some other theory?
I have the original list that had 385 cars on it. Yes, it wasn't complete but that was all we had in the early 90s.
That list has the Canadian cars on it. (vins start with 414)
Can you provide me a copy of this original C500 list?
Who has a copy of the shipping list for C500?
It would be greatly appreciated.
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:
GG Registry only has 114 C500 as of NOV16.
Dodge publicly states 392 in 1972, a clear issue with NASCAR unless it was a factual mistake (mistake to give the real number vice an inflated number for NASCAR purposes).
The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors
No other public knowledge about high numbers published other than clips and pieces.
A Shipping list that is held privately and not released???
Even if Galen list was all non public registry cars, that is only 506, well short of a higher number and GG list is primarily known cars not the opposite.
From Dodge perspective, C500 purpose built car that competes with RT. Cost more to make, and probably has a much lower profit margin.
Advertised as Hemi only, but not many folks could afford that option, so it shifts to 440/hemi. Still an expensive car, and the RT had better appearance If you had to convince a significant other.
Does not turn out to be as good a race car as expected. Certainly not the preferred car for drag racing.
So why keep building them instead of the higher demand and better profit margin of the Charger and RT?
Already designing the Daytona to fix the C500 aero issues.
So doesn't make sense that Corporate Dodge would stop short of the 500 number? Especially when you have confusion with the XX/XS VIN to hide any shortfalls with NASCAR?
Daytona is a winner in NASCAR, so your not going to get caught cheating now, so you make 500 or 50X. Why not make 600 or 680 of a winner, if you made 680 of a loser (NASCAR) in the C500
As far as survival rate, I would expect the C500 and Daytona to have a high survival rate. These were expensive purpose built cars. Folks did not just trash them, if they crashed them or blew a motor. They were not going to cut them up to fix the Coronet or 383 Charger in my opinion.
Anecdotally, I do not know many folks ;D...but I do know the original owner of a Daytona, C500, Hemi RT. Of all the club members in my area, not one has an original RR, Super Bee, Cuda, etc... that they owned originally. From this list there are other original C500 and Daytona owners. Speaks to the survivability of these cars.
So where are these other 90 cars to get to 392, let alone 190 to get to 500 or 370 cars to get to 680?? 370 cars is an awful lot of missing C500 hemi and 440 Trackpac cars by any standard.
So for all you old timers, what cars where you seeking out in late 70s and the 80 and 90's before the market took off, hence which cars would survive?
I would certainly appreciate the folks that have copies of this list (s) sharing them for the new generation of owners.
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 10, 2017, 07:56:20 AM
Who has a copy of the shipping list for C500?
It would be greatly appreciated.
Galen Govier has the only known copy of the Charger 500 VIN list. It has not been made public. Galen said that it does not have as much detailed information as the Daytona shipments list does.
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 10, 2017, 08:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:
The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors
305 known Charger 500 cars today? That sounds artificially high.Quote
From Dodge perspective, C500 purpose built car that competes with RT. Cost more to make, and probably has a much lower profit margin.
Advertised as Hemi only, but not many folks could afford that option, so it shifts to 440/hemi. Still an expensive car, and the RT had better appearance If you had to convince a significant other.
Does not turn out to be as good a race car as expected. Certainly not the preferred car for drag racing.
So why keep building them instead of the higher demand and better profit margin of the Charger and RT?
There was no "keep building them". All cars had to be completed and verified before they ever raced.
Appearance versus an R/T, cost versus an R/T, drag racing all were non-issues. The prime objective was to get 500 cars built to get the body on the race track at Riverside in January. QuoteAlready designing the Daytona to fix the C500 aero issues.
The Daytona was not worked on until they realized the Charger 500 wasn't going to cut it. When the 500 was announced in October '68, the Talladega and Boss 429 had not been seen on the race track. The Talladega was CERTAINLY a reaction to Dodge's announcement. The aerodynamic Ford with the new engine turned out to be a hard combination to beat. Quote
So doesn't make sense that Corporate Dodge would stop short of the 500 number? Especially when you have confusion with the XX/XS VIN to hide any shortfalls with NASCAR?
I do not believe they stopped short.
Also, XX/XS is data entry. Nothing to do with number of cars intended to be built.
QuoteDaytona is a winner in NASCAR, so your not going to get caught cheating now, so you make 500 or 50X. Why not make 600 or 680 of a winner, if you made 680 of a loser (NASCAR) in the C500
Because it is hard enough to make 500 cars, get them trucked to Creative in dribs and drabs, converted and shipped out the door.
Like the C500, Daytonas were all built prior to their first race.
You also have the lead times and high cost of ordering additional small runs of pieces from the various vendors to build more cars to order than needed.
Remember the #1 priority was "get them on the track". The problem of selling 500 cars was secondary.
QuoteAs far as survival rate, I would expect the C500 and Daytona to have a high survival rate. These were expensive purpose built cars. Folks did not just trash them, if they crashed them or blew a motor. They were not going to cut them up to fix the Coronet or 383 Charger in my opinion
C500s seem to have a trending survival rate that mirror the Talladega and Spoiler II. Far less than the Daytona and Superbird which are 60 percent plus. QuoteSo where are these other 90 cars to get to 392, let alone 190 to get to 500 or 370 cars to get to 680?? 370 cars is an awful lot of missing C500 hemi and 440 Trackpac cars by any standard.
Because, muscle cars. Attrition. QuoteSo for all you old timers, what cars where you seeking out in late 70s and the 80 and 90's before the market took off, hence which cars would survive?
In the late 70's, it was not much different than it is today. People were seeking out all the Mopar aerodynamic cars, even back then. The first five years for these cars were the hardest in terms of survival. Daytonas and Superbirds benefited from the weird factor.
Quote from: aerolith on July 09, 2017, 06:18:12 AM
My old friend Galen said back many moons ago that Dec 19 1968 was the last day of production for R/T's destined for the Creative upgrades.
I was told that 248662 was the last one taken from the production line for C500 duties, but that has been changed by modern records.
Still believe my 440ci 4-speed dana car is the last non-hemi C500 built?
First or last or somewhere in between, it don't matter, she is still 'one of 26' built for racing C500's which in my book is kinda RARE!!! :2thumbs:
Aerolite
The old info I have (pre Galen days) is L9B48666 is the last 500 built. 440 car. I don't know the trans. L9B248665 is a green 440 4 speed car. J9B248663 is a Hemi car and I don't have *9B248664. Your car was Scheduled for the last day of production but there is at least 1 more 4 speed car after yours and 2 known 440 cars after yours. Never the less..... You have one of the last ones for sure.
Quote from: C5X DAYTONA on July 10, 2017, 02:58:12 PM
Quote from: aerolith on July 09, 2017, 06:18:12 AM
My old friend Galen said back many moons ago that Dec 19 1968 was the last day of production for R/T's destined for the Creative upgrades.
I was told that 248662 was the last one taken from the production line for C500 duties, but that has been changed by modern records.
Still believe my 440ci 4-speed dana car is the last non-hemi C500 built?
First or last or somewhere in between, it don't matter, she is still 'one of 26' built for racing C500's which in my book is kinda RARE!!! :2thumbs:
Aerolite
The old info I have (pre Galen days) is L9B48666 is the last 500 built. 440 car. I don't know the trans. L9B248665 is a green 440 4 speed car. J9B248663 is a Hemi car and I don't have *9B248664. Your car was Scheduled for the last day of production but there is at least 1 more 4 speed car after yours and 2 known 440 cars after yours. Never the less..... You have one of the last ones for sure.
666 :scared:
The John Pointer sketch of a Charger with a nose and wing is dated 12-10-68.
It is titled: "1970 Charger 500".
Perhaps Chrysler saw the drop nosed Fords and started planning an improvement on the freshly released 1969 500?
Or, at least it was a thought by Pointer...
When did the Ford aerocars start selling?
QuoteQuote from: Dragon Slayer on Today at 04:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:
The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors
305 known Charger 500 cars today? That sounds artificially high.
Looking back at other statements that have been made on this site, GG has said to a member that he has copies of VINs or Build Sheets on 255 cars.
The person I consider to have the most credible, personal, knowledgeable of actual cars (69_500) last said on this site that he has data on 291 cars (as of Jan 2015). This does include a handful of known scrapped cars, so I believe the credible number of cars known, still existing, and could be proven by any one person is around 280+/-.
Quote from: odcics2 on July 10, 2017, 04:54:55 PM
The John Pointer sketch of a Charger with a nose and wing is dated 12-10-68.
It is titled: "1970 Charger 500.
This is true. But exactly when Pointer shared his "cocktail napkin" doodle with the rest of the staff is open to conjecture. He did say years later that it was done with the thought, "What if the 500 doesn't cut it?" Of course, we also know the initial Daytona concept as tested had no wing.
By all accounts, they did not know how much trouble they were in until they got to Daytona, and beyond. The Boss wasn't legal until March, and that became an added problem for the now five year old Hemi.
When I spoke earlier in the day, I deliberately did not mention Pointer's drawing. Simply because the idea existed, does not mean any action was being taken.
Quote from: Aero426 on July 10, 2017, 09:33:57 PM
Quote from: odcics2 on July 10, 2017, 04:54:55 PM
The John Pointer sketch of a Charger with a nose and wing is dated 12-10-68.
It is titled: "1970 Charger 500.
This is true. But exactly when Pointer shared his "cocktail napkin" doodle with the rest of the staff is open to conjecture. He did say years later that it was done with the thought, "What if the 500 doesn't cut it?" Of course, we also know the initial Daytona concept as tested had no wing.
By all accounts, they did not know how much trouble they were in until they got to Daytona, and beyond. The Boss wasn't legal until March, and that became an added problem for the now five year old Hemi.
When I spoke earlier in the day, I deliberately did not mention Pointer's drawing. Simply because the idea existed, does not mean any action was being taken.
Makes sense to me. :cheers:
Quote from: Aero426 on July 10, 2017, 11:08:00 AM
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 10, 2017, 08:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:
The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors
305 known Charger 500 cars today? That sounds artificially high.
Quote
From Dodge perspective, C500 purpose built car that competes with RT. Cost more to make, and probably has a much lower profit margin.
Advertised as Hemi only, but not many folks could afford that option, so it shifts to 440/hemi. Still an expensive car, and the RT had better appearance If you had to convince a significant other.
Does not turn out to be as good a race car as expected. Certainly not the preferred car for drag racing.
So why keep building them instead of the higher demand and better profit margin of the Charger and RT?
There was no "keep building them". All cars had to be completed and verified before they ever raced.
Appearance versus an R/T, cost versus an R/T, drag racing all were non-issues.
The prime objective was to get 500 cars built to get the body on the race track at Riverside in January.
QuoteAlready designing the Daytona to fix the C500 aero issues.
The Daytona was not worked on until they realized the Charger 500 wasn't going to cut it. When the 500 was announced in October '68, the Talladega and Boss 429 had not been seen on the race track. The Talladega was CERTAINLY a reaction to Dodge's announcement. The aerodynamic Ford with the new engine turned out to be a hard combination to beat.
Quote
So doesn't make sense that Corporate Dodge would stop short of the 500 number? Especially when you have confusion with the XX/XS VIN to hide any shortfalls with NASCAR?
I do not believe they stopped short.
Also, XX/XS is data entry. Nothing to do with number of cars intended to be built.
QuoteDaytona is a winner in NASCAR, so your not going to get caught cheating now, so you make 500 or 50X. Why not make 600 or 680 of a winner, if you made 680 of a loser (NASCAR) in the C500
Because it is hard enough to make 500 cars, get them trucked to Creative in dribs and drabs, converted and shipped out the door.
Like the C500, Daytonas were all built prior to their first race.
You also have the lead times and high cost of ordering additional small runs of pieces from the various vendors to build more cars to order than needed.
Remember the #1 priority was "get them on the track". The problem of selling 500 cars was secondary.
QuoteAs far as survival rate, I would expect the C500 and Daytona to have a high survival rate. These were expensive purpose built cars. Folks did not just trash them, if they crashed them or blew a motor. They were not going to cut them up to fix the Coronet or 383 Charger in my opinion
C500s seem to have a trending survival rate that mirror the Talladega and Spoiler II. Far less than the Daytona and Superbird which are 60 percent plus.
QuoteSo where are these other 90 cars to get to 392, let alone 190 to get to 500 or 370 cars to get to 680?? 370 cars is an awful lot of missing C500 hemi and 440 Trackpac cars by any standard.
Because, muscle cars. Attrition.
QuoteSo for all you old timers, what cars where you seeking out in late 70s and the 80 and 90's before the market took off, hence which cars would survive?
In the late 70's, it was not much different than it is today. People were seeking out all the Mopar aerodynamic cars, even back then. The first five years for these cars were the hardest in terms of survival. Daytonas and Superbirds benefited from the weird factor.
The 305 is a guess based on the registry on this forum. Did not say they exist, and the number is a little high, but they are VINs listed on the registry.
Clearly they had issues making the deadline you state for NASCAR. How was this verified, is there a record of when this was done? There are a few KNOWN cars on the list that did not have scheduled build date unit Mid DEC. With the XX Weeks it took to make an RT into a C500 over the Christmas holiday, HOW did they make your 7JAN Deadline? So again seems hard to believe that they made and NASCAR counted 500 C500 before 7Jan.
I have data on at least 2 Sep07 cars that did not make it to a dealer until 19Dec. Maybe because NASCAR was counting them, or maybe because it took that long for Creative to finish them, and they did not start the build 07Sep.
My point on XX/XS data is that NASCAR could have been presented XS RT as C500 and would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.
The early test cars showed deficiencies with aero, seems reasonable you could go short on production, especially if your losing money on it.
What are the weird factors that benefit Wing cars that do not benefit C500 cars?
Not sure were you views on actual count are, based on what we see we are still way short of this higher number on GG has.
Quote from: RallyeMike on July 10, 2017, 09:15:43 PM
QuoteQuote from: Dragon Slayer on Today at 04:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:
The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors
305 known Charger 500 cars today? That sounds artificially high.
Looking back at other statements that have been made on this site, GG has said to a member that he has copies of VINs or Build Sheets on 255 cars.
The person I consider to have the most credible, personal, knowledgeable of actual cars (69_500) last said on this site that he has data on 291 cars (as of Jan 2015). This does include a handful of known scrapped cars, so I believe the credible number of cars known, still existing, and could be proven by any one person is around 280+/-.
Funny that GG only use 114 on his letter to owner as of Nov16.
Shown here is a telegram dated January 23 1969 from NASCAR's Bill France Sr. to Ford Racing Boss Jacque Passino. What this is likely about, is that Passino is questioning whether Dodge has really built at least 500 examples of the Charger 500. Bill France is replying and indicating he has reviewed the list of 540 Charger 500 cars, and called various dealers. He determined that the cars actually were available in the field and went so far as to give a specific dealer and price in nearby Toledo Ohio, along with an offer to purchase the car to prove it.
(http://www.superbirdclub.com/files/c500Passino1.jpg)
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 11, 2017, 07:11:01 AM
Clearly they had issues making the deadline you state for NASCAR. How was this verified, is there a record of when this was done? There are a few KNOWN cars on the list that did not have scheduled build date unit Mid DEC. With the XX Weeks it took to make an RT into a C500 over the Christmas holiday, HOW did they make your 7JAN Deadline? So again seems hard to believe that they made and NASCAR counted 500 C500 before 7Jan.
I agree it was a crash program, but it was going to get done whatever it took. It did not take weeks to convert a car. Looking at the work to be done and the relative low quality final work produced, it took a couple of days to slam out a car. They were not built with love! QuoteI have data on at least 2 Sep07 cars that did not make it to a dealer until 19Dec. Maybe because NASCAR was counting them, or maybe because it took that long for Creative to finish them, and they did not start the build 07Sep.
Early cars could have been kept around for whatever purpose needed. Public relations, a sample reference car. Who knows?
There is no evidence that NASCAR ever physically counted the cars in person. The "list" of cars would have been provided to ACCUS and to NASCAR. NASCAR could have spot checked the list to make sure the cars existed. They probably viewed some cars. QuoteMy point on XX/XS data is that NASCAR could have been presented XS RT as C500 and would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.
Too few XS VIN cars to worry about. The reason for the XX in the VIN would have been explained. Look, these were not ignorant people. QuoteThe early test cars showed deficiencies with aero, seems reasonable you could go short on production, especially if your losing money on it.
What deficiencies are you talking about? The 500 was a LARGE improvement in performance over the '68 Charger in actual on track testing.
Again, the cars had to be completed before they ever raced. There were contracts and agreements with the suppliers and Creative to build the cars. The parts are all run. There is no savings in saying, "Whelp, let's build 100 less." They were all sunk costs. QuoteWhat are the weird factors that benefit Wing cars that do not benefit C500 cars?
Without the nose and wing, the 500, Talladega and Cyclone Spoiler look just like a regular car. Even a non-car person can look at a winged car and see it might be something special. Charger 500 owners can attest to that guy who comes up at a show and says, "I used to have a 69 Charger back in the day. But it didn't have headlights like that".
Quote from: Aero426 on July 11, 2017, 08:59:33 AM
Without the nose and wing, the 500, Talladega and Cyclone Spoiler look just like a regular car. Even a non-car person can look at a winged car and see it might be something special. Charger 500 owners can attest to that guy who comes up at a show and says, "I used to have a 69 Charger back in the day. But it didn't have headlights like that".
Amen to that. 90% of the people who approach me at an all-make car show have no ideal what a Charger 500 is. Observant ones ask why it looks like a '68 from the front and a '69 from the rear.
Generally when someone asks if its real, they are wondering if its a real General Lee because of the orange paint job.
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 11, 2017, 07:13:57 AM
Quote from: RallyeMike on July 10, 2017, 09:15:43 PM
QuoteQuote from: Dragon Slayer on Today at 04:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:
The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors
305 known Charger 500 cars today? That sounds artificially high.
Looking back at other statements that have been made on this site, GG has said to a member that he has copies of VINs or Build Sheets on 255 cars.
The person I consider to have the most credible, personal, knowledgeable of actual cars (69_500) last said on this site that he has data on 291 cars (as of Jan 2015). This does include a handful of known scrapped cars, so I believe the credible number of cars known, still existing, and could be proven by any one person is around 280+/-.
Funny that GG only use 114 on his letter to owner as of Nov16.
I have no knowledge on the subject how many were made but need to clarify this point. When Galen puts a number in a vehicle inspection report it says something like "of 114 known to exist". This means the number he, personally, has seen/inspected. It does NOT mean total known to exist by everyone ever. It's a very important distinction! He may have "knowledge" of over 200 cars through stories or browsing the internet but he's not going to stake his reputation that they are verified. That's why there are discrepancies when someone claims their car is "1 of 3" - and leave off the "known to exist" so it becomes "known to be produced". It certainly muddies things up though because the next 500 he sees will be "of 115 known to exist" and that owner will stick it on a show board and brag about it to anyone who will listen.
Troy
Quote from: 5hunert on July 11, 2017, 09:16:47 AM
Quote from: Aero426 on July 11, 2017, 08:59:33 AM
Without the nose and wing, the 500, Talladega and Cyclone Spoiler look just like a regular car. Even a non-car person can look at a winged car and see it might be something special. Charger 500 owners can attest to that guy who comes up at a show and says, "I used to have a 69 Charger back in the day. But it didn't have headlights like that".
Amen to that. 90% of the people who approach me at an all-make car show have no ideal what a Charger 500 is. Observant ones ask why it looks like a '68 from the front and a '69 from the rear.
Generally when someone asks if its real, they are wondering if its a real General Lee because of the orange paint job.
Then the spectator walks to the back of the car: "And my back window wasn't like that either!"
Quote from: Aero426 on July 11, 2017, 08:13:30 AM
Shown here is a telegram dated January 23 1969 from NASCAR's Bill France Sr. to Ford Racing Boss Jacque Passino. What this is likely about, is that Passino is questioning whether Dodge has really built at least 500 examples of the Charger 500. Bill France is replying and indicating he has reviewed the list of 540 Charger 500 cars, and called various dealers. He determined that the cars actually were available in the field and went so far as to give a specific dealer and price in nearby Toledo Ohio, along with an offer to purchase the car to prove it.
(http://www.superbirdclub.com/files/c500Passino1.jpg)
Until the actual list is revealed, a lot of speculation will remain...you are probably right in your assumptions, but a doubting Thomas could say he really meant to say he reviewed the list of 440 Charger 500 cars...you know because they were originally only going to be hemi cars....the 540 is a typo...he doesn't mention a hemi 500 being available...only a 440 being available....you can't say they wouldn't have a typo like that when they can't even spell the guy's name right who the letter is going to...Jacque or Ajcque Passino? I like the 392 number better but it is probably wrong....lets see the list already.....
Quote from: richRTSE on July 11, 2017, 10:34:06 PM
Until the actual list is revealed, a lot of speculation will remain...you are probably right in your assumptions, but a doubting Thomas could say he really meant to say he reviewed the list of 440 Charger 500 cars...you know because they were originally only going to be hemi cars....the 540 is a typo...he doesn't mention a hemi 500 being available...only a 440 being available....you can't say they wouldn't have a typo like that when they can't even spell the guy's name right who the letter is going to...Jacque or Ajcque Passino? I like the 392 number better but it is probably wrong....lets see the list already.....
You are absolutely right. These days, it seems there is a lot of "reading into" what someone "might have meant" in what was intended to be a throw away document.
Fortunately for us, the telegram was saved by Ford stock car racing exec Charlie Gray and wound up in the Ford archives in Detroit when he retired. Mark Moses who founded the Talladega Registry book found it digging through the paperwork. Ironically, the Ford archives were downsized significantly by a building move several years ago. ALL the 1960's racing stuff (many file cabinets) went to GT40 man Mike Teske in Tennessee. Had Mike not been there, who knows what would have happened to it. It's just old junk, right?
Quote from: Troy on July 11, 2017, 09:39:05 AM
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 11, 2017, 07:13:57 AM
Quote from: RallyeMike on July 10, 2017, 09:15:43 PM
QuoteQuote from: Dragon Slayer on Today at 04:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:
The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors
305 known Charger 500 cars today? That sounds artificially high.
Looking back at other statements that have been made on this site, GG has said to a member that he has copies of VINs or Build Sheets on 255 cars.
The person I consider to have the most credible, personal, knowledgeable of actual cars (69_500) last said on this site that he has data on 291 cars (as of Jan 2015). This does include a handful of known scrapped cars, so I believe the credible number of cars known, still existing, and could be proven by any one person is around 280+/-.
Funny that GG only use 114 on his letter to owner as of Nov16.
I have no knowledge on the subject how many were made but need to clarify this point. When Galen puts a number in a vehicle inspection report it says something like "of 114 known to exist". This means the number he, personally, has seen/inspected. It does NOT mean total known to exist by everyone ever. It's a very important distinction! He may have "knowledge" of over 200 cars through stories or browsing the internet but he's not going to stake his reputation that they are verified. That's why there are discrepancies when someone claims their car is "1 of 3" - and leave off the "known to exist" so it becomes "known to be produced". It certainly muddies things up though because the next 500 he sees will be "of 115 known to exist" and that owner will stick it on a show board and brag about it to anyone who will listen.
Troy
I assume this is all assumption on your part? GG has produced letters for cars sight unseen. I have seen a U code Superbird written up as V code that way and attempted to be passed off by seller as V code. Vin was clearly U code on dash, and fender tag, but it had a sixpack. Well know issue by several people who inspected car when it went up for sale.
My car was assigned a delivery dealer on the paper work from GG. Problem was that dealer did not exist in 1969. Dodge district manager for our area told me so, and the dealer archives for this area validate that. When question about this I received a call day later saying it was rumored to be from that dealer. Yet that was good enough to put on paper.
Hence my whole issue with relying on a secret list held by GG, and whether he worries about his reputation.
Quote from: Aero426 on July 11, 2017, 08:59:33 AM
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 11, 2017, 07:11:01 AM
Clearly they had issues making the deadline you state for NASCAR. How was this verified, is there a record of when this was done? There are a few KNOWN cars on the list that did not have scheduled build date unit Mid DEC. With the XX Weeks it took to make an RT into a C500 over the Christmas holiday, HOW did they make your 7JAN Deadline? So again seems hard to believe that they made and NASCAR counted 500 C500 before 7Jan.
I agree it was a crash program, but it was going to get done whatever it took. It did not take weeks to convert a car. Looking at the work to be done and the relative low quality final work produced, it took a couple of days to slam out a car. They were not built with love!
QuoteI have data on at least 2 Sep07 cars that did not make it to a dealer until 19Dec. Maybe because NASCAR was counting them, or maybe because it took that long for Creative to finish them, and they did not start the build 07Sep.
Early cars could have been kept around for whatever purpose needed. Public relations, a sample reference car. Who knows?
There is no evidence that NASCAR ever physically counted the cars in person. The "list" of cars would have been provided to ACCUS and to NASCAR. NASCAR could have spot checked the list to make sure the cars existed. They probably viewed some cars.
QuoteMy point on XX/XS data is that NASCAR could have been presented XS RT as C500 and would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.
Too few XS VIN cars to worry about. The reason for the XX in the VIN would have been explained. Look, these were not ignorant people.
QuoteThe early test cars showed deficiencies with aero, seems reasonable you could go short on production, especially if your losing money on it.
What deficiencies are you talking about? The 500 was a LARGE improvement in performance over the '68 Charger in actual on track testing.
Again, the cars had to be completed before they ever raced. There were contracts and agreements with the suppliers and Creative to build the cars. The parts are all run. There is no savings in saying, "Whelp, let's build 100 less." They were all sunk costs.
QuoteWhat are the weird factors that benefit Wing cars that do not benefit C500 cars?
Without the nose and wing, the 500, Talladega and Cyclone Spoiler look just like a regular car. Even a non-car person can look at a winged car and see it might be something special. Charger 500 owners can attest to that guy who comes up at a show and says, "I used to have a 69 Charger back in the day. But it didn't have headlights like that".
Thank you for response. Dodge knew it had issues at higher speeds it would operate on the track. I guess we will never really know until we get to a number of validated cars and vins at 540, or what ever the number is.
The Ford letter is interesting in that they challenged NASCAR. Why? Unless they had reasonable suspicions. That is the other way to look at it. Was a pretty snarky answer to the Ford Manager interestingly enough.
So back to this 540 shipping list thing. Who has a copy besides GG? Know one kept a copy?
By my own experience, not all cars had a dealer listed on this shipping list, as stated by GG Secretary to me. It is not as complete as the Daytona list, so Nascar letter to Ford is nothing more then a snarky response as I read it.
Quote from: richRTSE on July 11, 2017, 10:34:06 PM
a doubting Thomas could say he really meant to say he reviewed the list of 440 Charger 500 cars...you know because they were originally only going to be hemi cars....the 540 is a typo...he doesn't mention a hemi 500 being available...only a 440 being available....
I can't imagine Bill France turning a blind eye to a manufacturer falling short of the homologation requirement (which was established as a deterrent for the manufacturers in the first place).
There was also no reason for Chrysler to segregate their reporting of the C500's produced by engine displacement. It certainly didn't happen with the Daytona model just a few months later - or the Superbirds either for that matter.
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 12, 2017, 10:46:34 AM
So back to this 540 shipping list thing. Who has a copy besides GG? Know one kept a copy?
As has been mentioned a few times already,
no one other than Galen has a copy of a Charger 500 list that we know of. There may be other copies, but none are known in the hands of enthusiasts.
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 12, 2017, 10:46:34 AM
The Ford letter is interesting in that they challenged NASCAR. Why? Unless they had reasonable suspicions. That is the other way to look at it. Was a pretty snarky answer to the Ford Manager interestingly enough.
It is not a snarky response at all. Whatever the question was, France is replying that he has checked the list, found cars at all locations he called. And that he found a Charger 500 in Toledo (just down the road from Ford) if Passino wanted it. (Ford did get their hands on a street Daytona for wind tunnel purposes).
It would have been natural for Passino to try and exploit any competitive advantage or question the homologation of the C500. He certainly questioned whether the Daytona was a 1970 model because it was in the 1970 Dodge Scat Pack magazine insert. He sent a company letter to France on that one.
Thanx for the update C5X.
Wouldn't want 663 as thats ends in an odd number and 666 is the Devils work!
248662 is fine by me.
Hunert, if you paint a 68/70 Charger dull red or orange, you is gonna be a 'General' no matter how much you try to tell Folks otherwise... :smilielol:
The General is the famous Dodge of all time, when I drove a friends '69 general' home one day, I had Folks following me and banging on my door for weeks!!! :slap:
Orange is the colour of FUN!!! :smilielol:
Aerolith
:lol:
Quote from: aerolith on July 14, 2017, 01:36:51 PM
Thanx for the update C5X.
Wouldn't want 663 as thats ends in an odd number and 666 is the Devils work!
248662 is fine by me.
Hunert, if you paint a 68/70 Charger dull red or orange, you is gonna be a 'General' no matter how much you try to tell Folks otherwise... :smilielol:
The General is the famous Dodge of all time, when I drove a friends '69 general' home one day, I had Folks following me and banging on my door for weeks!!! :slap:
Orange is the colour of FUN!!! :smilielol:
Aerolith
I guess we will never know. I do see more Daytona's out and about. No 69 C500 at Carlisle, unless I missed it. As far as stories I imagine each can be counter. I had 3 different friends see my car, and all three knew it was a Charger, and not a basic charger or RT. They knew the lights were different and immediately triggered on the rear window when it was pointed out non verbally. 2 were woman. But I guess so what.
In the end the actual number won't really be known, but I find it harder to understand how many accept this 540 #, when it seems there is plenty of circumstantial factors to say less. But it is what it is. G
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on July 11, 2017, 07:11:01 AM
The early test cars showed deficiencies with aero, seems reasonable you could go short on production, especially if your losing money on it.
The Charger 500 as first raced picked up 8 mph observed speed over the 1968 Charger the year before, and 10 mph if speeds are corrected for weather conditions. Baker felt he could race the car comfortably at the max 192 mph observed lap average. At 187, he said it was "boring to drive". Some of this was aerodynamics and some was because of the latest chassis design updates and testing tweaks. But the consensus going into Daytona was that the Charger 500 "would be competitive had good chance of being successful."
68 Charger - Feb 1968 183.5 mph
69 Charger 500 prototype built on '68 race chassis 186.18 mph (189.02 corrected)
69 Charger 500 Feb race config on '69 race chassis 192.27 mph (194.10 corrected)
Corrected speed takes into account weather conditions to give an apples to apples comparison
As you can see, the Charger 500 package provided a significant jump in performance. http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_120968.html (http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_120968.html)
interesting stuff :popcrn:
Just to throw my 2 cents in.
248666 as far as I know is a 440 car that was in Texas last I heard.
So it's the highest VIN I know of. No idea what was last built by creative though.
248663 is a black hemi auto on column car.
248662 and 248663 were both at the Mooar Nats in 2005 sitting side by side