http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=FL0110-89901 (http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=FL0110-89901)
Interesting......... Nice paint, not-too-nice clone job...............
Clone? It sounds like a real car that never raced DB. They have their dates a little messed up though...
Might be a real chassis, but they skipped making a lot of details right... no plug on a race Daytona?? ::) Plus, what's up with that nosecone and the fender scoops? They seem way too squared off to me.
This isn't the same #22 Race Daytona that was advertized out the wahzoo on Barrett-Jackson a few years ago, was it? I remember that one being a lot more correct.
Ooopsy - No plug - my bad!
That is the biggest piece of fantasy I have ever read. :smilielol:
The guy has vintage raced the car in Florida, that part is true. As to the car itself, it appears to be a complete home-brew job. What a surprise there are no underhood shots.
Gene, it is not the car sold at Barrett-Jackson. THAT one might not be a real Allison car either, but at least it was a real Nichels car.
Quote from: Aero426 on January 08, 2010, 10:45:36 AM
That is the biggest piece of fantasy I have ever read. :smilielol:
The guy has vintage raced the car in Florida, that part is true. As to the car itself, it appears to be a complete home-brew job. What a surprise there are no underhood shots.
"Fantasy" - Good one! Keeping it clean and family rated! ;D
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 08, 2010, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: Aero426 on January 08, 2010, 10:45:36 AM
That is the biggest piece of fantasy I have ever read. :smilielol:
The guy has vintage raced the car in Florida, that part is true. As to the car itself, it appears to be a complete home-brew job. What a surprise there are no underhood shots.
"Fantasy" - Good one! Keeping it clean and family rated! ;D
Not a good fantasy either, let me tell you.
I thought that write up was horribly incorrect in most details.
I was going to start a post on it here only to find I was late to the party.
What do you mean they never raced the 305? The little sewing machine almost won it!
The shape of that wing ain't right either...
Quote from: Aero426 on January 08, 2010, 10:45:36 AM
That is the biggest piece of fantasy I have ever read. :smilielol:
No kidding..............
Mecum moves a lot of wing cars - has anyone contacted them to "educate" them a bit?
This is the car that was sold at Barrett-Jackson several years back. Compare the difference.
(http://www.superbirdclub.com/files/rossi22a.jpg)
Contacting Mecum will be as productive as contacting e-bay. Trust me, the auction companies only care about item accuracy if there is some way that it is going to cost them money. As long as they can point the finger at the consignor and let themselves off the hook and as long as the descriptions are not so blatantly screaming wrong that there is no possible way anyone will bid on it, they DO NOT care!
They will tell you they are not fact checkers or historians they are merely arranging a venue in which buyers and sellers can meet for their mutual benefit and it is up to them to determine pedigree's. They will try to ensure clear titles and thats about it.
In this case they are going to state that Bobby Allison has verified it and thats what the owner told them.
The really sad part is that each time one of these fantasy cars gets sold like this, it beomes slightly more legitimized.
Quote from: maxwellwedge on January 08, 2010, 09:20:07 AM
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=FL0110-89901 (http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=FL0110-89901)
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
For the record, here are the pics in the auction description:
Batch #2
And the text... ahem... fantasy:
Quote from: MecumAuctionDreamer
By 1968, the advantage previously enjoyed by Chrysler's Hemi in NASCAR had been virtually eclipsed by its competitors. Ford had answered the more aerodynamic Charger 500 with its own slippery versions of the Torino and Mercury Cyclone, so Dodge pulled out all the stops and unleashed the wild, winged Daytona. With its pointed front nose and high rear wing, the Daytona put Mopar back at the front of the grid, and the Aero Wars were under way.
After almost two years of domination by just two manufacturers, NASCAR founder and President Bill France let it be known that the winged cars would be subjected to severe displacement limitations, and most car owners immediately abandoned them, with one significant holdout: a young rebel named Mario Rossi.
Rossi and his driver Bobby Allison had invested much time and treasure in their Number 22 Daytona, and so decided to experiment with a destroked 305 cubic inch small block. Allison tested the new combination at Daytona and Talladega but never drove it in competition.
Recently the car was visually inspected by Bobby Allison and certified as the test car used in the 1970 NASCAR season. The Certificate of Authenticity, which is signed by Allison and accompanies the car, reads:
This car was built and raced by Mario Rossi. This car was driven by Bobby Allison during testing at Daytona and Talladega in preparation for the upcoming 1970 NASCAR season. Because of the NASCAR rule change from the 426 Hemi engine to the 305 CI displacement limit this car was not raced.
The only test car known to still exist, it has gone through a ground-up restoration and subsequently been driven by "Flash" Gordon Sprague in 10 historic stock car events, winning all 10 races.
Highlights:
- Sold on bill of sale, race car
- This car was originally owned by Mario Rossi and was used as a test car prior to the then upcoming significant NASCAR engine rule change
- The change would make the engine go from 426 CI to 305 CI
- Bobby Allison tested this car at Daytona and Talladega as a 305 CI
- This winged test vehicle has historical signicance as it was banned before Allison was able to compete with it
- Recently the car was visually inspected by Bobby Allison and certified as the test car used in the 1970 NASCAR season
- This car comes with the original certificate of authenticity signed by Bobby Allison
- This is the only test car known to exist
- This car has since had a ground-up restoration and competed in 10 historical stock car racing associations
- This car was driven by "Flash" Gordon Sprague winning all 10 races
it looks like a badly done clone to me :Twocents:
nose and wing details
OK it's a fake. But how did Bobby sign off on it and sign on it?? :scratchchin:
probably got him to autograph it as a "tribute car " and the seller maybe mis representing it as the real deal..kind of like Duke clones :Twocents:
That thing would be a lot of fun to show up at a small dirt track and run it. :lol:
If I recall, Mecum has advertised in Mopar Collector's Guide. Maybe MCG will be at the auction, or maybe they would want to lend a hand in short-circuiting this subterfuge. This is about as blatant as it gets. I'm not sure how they conned Bobby into signing off on that one, but the wing is wrong, no window plug is wrong, the fender scoops are wrong, the shape of the nose is way off, the fender radii are incorrect, and on and on. What do you think?
"IF YOU'RE UNDER CONTROL, YOU AIN'T GOING FAST ENOUGH."
Quote from: Old Moparz on January 08, 2010, 02:43:48 PM
That thing would be a lot of fun to show up at a small dirt track and run it. :lol:
i was thinking demo derby
Maybe Bobby signed it and stated something like "you know, it looks just like the one I tested for Mario". Truthfully I wouldn't beat Bobby up too bad for it. Those guys drove so many very different cars over the years how could they be expected to know details about one out of dozens from forty years ago?
Quote from: 200MPH on January 08, 2010, 02:22:23 PM
probably got him to autograph it as a "tribute car " and the seller maybe mis representing it as the real deal..kind of like Duke clones :Twocents:
Bobby's office was contacted by email. His daughter who handles his business affairs replied that Bobby verifed the car as a test car that he drove in 1970.
Buyer beware.
WELL THIS IS WHAT I WAS REPLIED WITH:
Quote
Thank you for your comments. The seller represents that this car is real, indicates that Allison has personally inspected and authenticated it, and since Allison will be attending and representing the car at the auction, we will stand with this presentation unless something is presented to the contrary. Since this is represented as a "test" car, there may be differences between it and the winged cars that actually ran that many of the general public may not know.
Referring specifically to comments like: "better get your facts straight, because the car you have is an abomination, no matter if bobby signed it or not, you are being fraudulent." are of little if no help to us. While we do not warranty or guarantee the information presented, anytime there is concern about authenticity of a car, with real proof of that accusation, I can assure you we question as needed and take exception to what a few people have posted on a chat group.
Our dilemma is we have the original owner/driver saying it is real, documents support that, and comments from a general public who say they have questions. Sans any other evidence, who would you believe? Give us something more to work with and we would be happy to take this another step.
Tom Christmann
815.568.8888
Second sentence is pretty close to what I predicted they would say.
I would have to take in the Bobby Allison verification with a very large grain of salt and not necessary believe that he is involved with trying to misrepresent this. With the knowledge that it is reported that he lost almost all former memories after the accident that almost killed him, it was reported that a lot of the stories he tells now are what have been told to him by others and I would think that possibly he would not remember details of the cars other than how it looked in a picture and very well have not paid attention to details that are so easy to see by others.
I can see all of the odd stuff on this car too......and I am just a dumb girl that should not know these things.
The 305 statement is just so wrong unless they are saying that this "car" was tested with it and decided not to race with it..... but then again this car is so incorrect....it was probably a lack of the window plug that did it in and not the little engine...... Because we all know the famous story of the race and how well the car did with the little engine with great aero dynamics did.
Quote...
Our dilemma is we have the original owner/driver saying it is real, documents support that, and comments from a general public who say they have questions. Sans any other evidence, who would you believe? Give us something more to work with and we would be happy to take this another step.
Tom Christmann
815.568.8888
That's pretty simple. Cars that Mario Rossi would have fielded in 1970 would have been built by Nichels Engineering, just like the other factory supported Chrysler teams. All these cars have typical construction characteristics that can be visually identified. I don't see those construction cues in the photos presented.
The real sad thing here is some uninformed Jack-ass will pay big money thinking its the real deal but in reality nothing more than a hunk of shit with pretty paint
The car isn't remotely like Bobby's #22 from 1969 and 1970. Easy to see when reviewing his official photos at his official website.
http://www.bobbyallison.com/photos/bobby/70s/ba-70s.htm
It is very reasonable that a test car would have differences and experimentation, but .....
Why would Rossi build a test car with full battle colors and sponsor decals? :scratchchin:
Why would Rossi make at least 5 significant aerodynamic changes AND test the new engine? :scratchchin:
Why change the air dam, nosecone, scoops, wing, and plug ALL SIMULTANEOUSLY? :scratchchin:
Why do those 5 aero changes look, to use the highly technical term, half-ass? :scratchchin:
Didn't the real aero parts work really fine in 69? :scratchchin:
Answer: this is a poor tribute car at best, and a fake at worst. Buyer beware. :Twocents:
(I bet the Mecham guy is thinking "those a-holes think they are CSI") :smilielol:
Most like me are asking why is this a " No brainer " ???We all know this is a Pimp my ride Ghetto cruiser
The noted vintage racer Mr. Sprague had Kruse auctions liquidate his collection in December. The Daytona is the only car listed with no sale price. It would appear that whatever deal there was (if any) may have unwound and this is round #2 to dump it. He had a white Superbird at the sale that sold for 66k. First auction info below.
http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2992&aid=24615&lid=6640390#topoflot (http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2992&aid=24615&lid=6640390#topoflot)
I thought Mecum was a Professional, honorable and upstanding organization , I was wrong after the so called Daytona which in my eyes is flat out fraud !!! They lost any respect I may have had at one time for being one of the best auction houses and should be ashamed of themselves for standing behind this " MUNSTER DAYTONA "
You don't understand the classic car auction business too well do you? :icon_smile_wink:
this car was posted couple years ago on this forum. it was at a car show and it was covered then as a home built hillbilly ride. but it wasn't a so-called mario Rossi car then.
I think I recall that thread. Larry ragged on the car mercilessly and we defended the guys right to do whatever he wanted. Turns out what someone wanted was to fabricate a tale and make a lot of money off of it. Who would have thought that old Daytonalo would get the last laugh?
Quote from: Ghoste on January 09, 2010, 01:41:28 PM
I think I recall that thread. Larry ragged on the car mercilessly and we defended the guys right to do whatever he wanted. Turns out what someone wanted was to fabricate a tale and make a lot of money off of it. Who would have thought that old Daytonalo would get the last laugh?
if they only would have used a real wing , nose , scoupes and plug , the car might look more legit
Ok , it must be the water most drink around here!!! No plug and said Bobby Allison drove it back in the day , if ANY you believe that you never got out the third grade !!! Oops sorry to offend some of you , maybe fifth grade for some . Just to clear something up what Ghoste said , yes do what you want but to pass it off to somebody who clearly doesn't have a clue is wrong and you know it
The MUNSTER Daytona jab is an insult to the MUNSTERS. Funny - but.....
The comparison is all about details. The Daytona in question hasn't a single
detail in it's parts shape remotely close to accurate. Perhaps Zombie Daytona
would suffice????
Afterall the MUNSTERS understood deTails - that coffin car could out cD this
Daytona :yesnod:
Thank you very sell said yet there are few on here that see nothing wrong with it!! Cataracts??????
Quote from: daytonalo on January 09, 2010, 09:26:31 PM
Thank you very sell said yet there are few on here that see nothing wrong with it!! Cataracts??????
:lol:
reminds me of a dart that had a home made nose & wing , that was painted up as Petty Superbird , that was featured in a mopar mag , !! was used for ice racing :scratchchin:
I'm no expert, but how 'bout that recessed backlight?
That is part of car is called "PLUG " it was mention earlier. I knew that car looked familiar and as mentioned it looks like that Dart
the car reminds me of a couple of guys here in Oregon that did a few superbird clones out of 70 satellites and kept the fenders..the nose and wings are their trade marks..this car looks like one of theirs using a charger :scratchchin: body...
Same Bobby Allison daytona?
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/allisondaytona1.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/allisondaytona2.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/allisondaytona3.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/barrettjacksondaytona.jpg)
Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 10, 2010, 12:44:39 PM
Same Bobby Allison daytona?
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/allisondaytona1.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/allisondaytona2.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/allisondaytona3.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/barrettjacksondaytona.jpg)
Top three photos are the same car. Bottom one in the magazine is not.
The car in the first three photos is very likely the one currently being discussed (zombie/munster/fake/fraud/auction).
The car in the magazine is neither the one in the 3 photos nor the one up for auction. One, the magazine car has the vent window and small post. I will say that this is correct (and the real Rossi 426 race car) because it matches all the photos at the official Allison site, the official NASCAR site, and the private Legends of NASCAR site. See the attached photos from those sites. The vent window and post is on the race car. It is in the magazine photo. It is not on the auction car. Two, the magazine car has the 426, not the 305 being claimed in the auction car.
Story and link on Mario Rossi: http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Mario_Rossi.htm
The auction seller could claim that the auction car is real only because it was a test car with the 305, not the race car with the 426 (all these official photos) or the race car with the 305 (some photos). There are no photos of the test car with 305 that I can find. The Legends site has the race car 305 in photos.
The race car 305 is seen in several photos but they are too poor to identify the plug/no plug and other significant changes. The exception is the air dam which is different from the Rossi site car and the auction car.
I attached the Rossi photo of the 305 engine. I would say that the engine is the historic item here that matters, not the body and aero parts around it. As we see the body and aero parts can be faked and were faked. The auction car seller needs to show the motor, and document it, until then buyer beware. It is a tribute car at best, and a fraud at worst. :Twocents:
I should add that Rossi has been dead since 1983. There are no photos of his test cars with 305s.
There are a few pics of the 305 motor. Who knows if there is any one who can I.D. the famous 305 now. It was Rossi's car, and there is no Rossi. The story and info at the Legends site were posted in 2003. There are nearly one million reasons to fake a car.
**edit on 1-18-10** I should missing since 1983 and presumed dead. Sad story all around.
The car in the first three photos is very likely the one currently being discussed (zombie/munster/fake/fraud/auction).
Correct
The car in the magazine is neither the one in the 3 photos nor the one up for auction. One, the magazine car has the vent window and small post. I will say that this is correct (and the real Rossi 426 race car) because it matches all the photos at the official Allison site, the official NASCAR site, and the private Legends of NASCAR site. See the attached photos from those sites. The vent window and post is on the race car. It is in the magazine photo. It is not on the auction car. Two, the magazine car has the 426, not the 305 being claimed in the auction car.
It is not possible to prove or disprove the car from the magazine is a real Rossi car, or even which one it is. That car has been rebodied from a later body BACK to a 69 Charger. My understanding is that the decision that it was a Rossi car was arrived at by scraping paint off roll bars, etc. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. However, even if it is not a Rossi car, it is a real Nichels built car, and a beautiful restoration. Also, all side glass had to be removed in the middle of the 1970 season. My Superbird race car had pop out rear side glass, roll down rear side glass and then no side glass, all in the same season. So you can't read too much into it.
Story and link on Mario Rossi: http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Mario_Rossi.htm
The auction seller could claim that the auction car is real only because it was a test car with the 305, not the race car with the 426 (all these official photos) or the race car with the 305 (some photos). There are no photos of the test car with 305 that I can find. The Legends site has the race car 305 in photos.
That's because there was no "test car 305". The program was a last minute deal for Daytona 1971 and it all came together at the race track with Dick Brooks doing the driving. There was no test program. It was a "let's stick it in and see if this works" deal.
The race car 305 is seen in several photos but they are too poor to identify the plug/no plug and other significant changes. The exception is the air dam which is different from the Rossi site car and the auction car.
By rule the 305 race car could not run without a plug. Spoilers could change from race to race.
I attached the Rossi photo of the 305 engine. I would say that the engine is the historic item here that matters, not the body and aero parts around it. As we see the body and aero parts can be faked and were faked. The auction car seller needs to show the motor, and document it, until then buyer beware. It is a tribute car at best, and a fraud at worst.
The engine in the 305 Daytona was a very unique Keith Black built unit. While the engine is important, if the structure of the car underneath is anything other than a Nichels car, it is game over. I don't believe the auctioneers have made any representation as to who built the chassis. But the idea of Rossi testing some custom built (Non-Nichels built) car with the 305 is crazy talk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:bow:
Thank you for bringing up those points Doug. Why is the issue of a "test car" even a point for discussion? Does anyone believe that Rossi had enough money to take a regular bodied Charger stock car, swap some goobered together wing car parts onto it instead of using real wing car parts which were readily available to him at the time or a real wing stocker which he owned at the time and then run a couple of tests just to see if the stuff MIGHT work on his real wing car?
Anyway, the auction company doesn't care. The owner has put his own neck on the line for authenticity and thats all that matters to them. Perhaps working for the competition means I should be hoping it comes back to bite them in the ass later but all this does is to harm the hobby overall. They are revising history just so they stick a few dimes in their pocket.
:bow:
Quote from poster GTS on Moparts...
I was at the auction in GulfBreeze Fla,not a real car,I think it was a 318 car,ask for the vin#,homemade nose,wing,look at the rear window stock charger,not 500 or daytona window,I think Sprag the previous owner had it made,there was a picture book of it and how they made it several years ago in his Museum,was not there the day of the auction,Bobby Allison was there to sign autographs,nice guy,he might have drove it around the parking lot but that was it,The guy who bought it also paid like 1600.00 for a fake made in China kids pedal plane?go to kruse auctions look at the results in Sprags auctions,complete fake if they let run thru the Auction Im sure someone will be disapointed,
I argue that Mario is dead why ?? Well I'm an expert in this area being from NJ and with no body you cannot document that he is dead :icon_smile_big:
But do you think it's an inside job?
Quote from: nascarxx29 on January 10, 2010, 12:44:39 PM
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/barrettjacksondaytona.jpg)
What magazine is that?
That is a Barrett-Jackson auction catalog from several years ago when the car was sold.
I wasn't aware that BJ published a book/magazine with the auction results?
Quote from: 6bblgt on January 14, 2010, 10:53:46 PM
I wasn't aware that BJ published a book/magazine with the auction results?
They don't. That book was a catalog for prospective bidders before the auction. Most of the large auction houses do this.
Doug,
I have spoke with my dads crew members and they said there was never a test car. I have also spoke with Larry Rathegab and he said it never happened either. So the car may be a real car but chances are it was not one of my fathers cars.
A few days ago the owner of the car called me and we had a long conversation concerning the car. He has told me that he is going to send the car to Terry Nichels and let him see if he can tell what kind of car it it. The guy said he does not want to mis represent the car. He only has the word of Bobby that it is real.
I also spoke to the guy who found and rebuilt the car. He said it was skinned with a 73 or 74 body and had part of a nose on it. The car was also red and gold on the exterior. That is why they think it was one of my dads cars. So other than that and Bobby there is no other proof of the cars origin.
The owner also told me he will not sell the car if it can not be determined as to what it is.
I have also talked to Mecum and they only have the paperwork the owner gave them saying it was an Allison car. They have also been in meetings trying to figure out how to deal with this. They tell me they are a reputable company and do not want this to go bad.
And also if you read the description the car is not being represented as the 305 car but only as a test car for the 305. And I think after talking to mechanics and Rathegab that did not happen. The car could still be a real race car but who knows where it came from. So it sounds like someone will be trying to find out. And if there is no decision it may not go to auction.
Bill
Well, Terry could certainly tell if the car was Nichels built, or not in a matter of moments.
As you know, Larry Rathgeb's memory is very good. On, something as specific as the 305 program, when he says the engine was not even available until Speedweeks 1971, that would make it impossible for any kind of test program, let alone that Bobby had left the team and was on his own.
Hopefully clear heads will prevail on the matter. Thanks for getting involved and letting us know.
they are advertising the car all over TV , in every add mecum runs and hyping it up big time . What a crock .
Any one seen pictures of the motor? Any one? Even one pic? Does the seller know how to open the hood? :icon_smile_blackeye:
Quote from: 68X426 on January 18, 2010, 01:48:11 PM
Any one seen pictures of the motor? Any one? Even one pic? Does the seller know how to open the hood? :icon_smile_blackeye:
they show the tiny thing , on the TV commercial
I find it somewhat humorous that there is so much debate surrounding the pedigree of this "Daytona" (and I use the label "Daytona" very loosely when referring to this car). So many have already pointed out the numerous faults with the vehicle, and anyone with even a passing knowledge of wingcars can point out what amounts to a poor attempt at best to make a "Daytona" clone. This is sad since someone put a lot of effort into a really nice paint job, replicating Bobby's race #22. It's sad that they didn't take the body work to the correct level to match the paint.
The fact that Bobby said it was his car is questionable as well since as pointed out by Bobby himself; he has no memoires pre-dating his near life ending accident. Is it possible that the car was one of his race cars...in a past life?? (Just asking) And, his signature on the car doesn't mean he is actually saying it's his car. Richard Petty has signed numerous "street" Superbirds painted up as his old #43, but that doesn't mean he's saying each one was his!
I will not rehash what everyone has already said, only that if anyone buys this vehicle without doing their homework and really believes it's an original "Daytona"......should remember the following saying....
"A fool and his money are soon parted!"
(Just my two cents)
Quote from: wingcar on January 18, 2010, 03:55:53 PM
I will not rehash what everyone has already said, only that if anyone buys this vehicle without doing their homework and really believes it's an original "Daytona"......should remember the following saying....
"A fool and his money are soon parted!"
One of the difficulties with period Grand National cars, is that there is definite lack of knowledge of their construction, and what should be there, and what should not. There are only so many original cars left that have not been hacked up (and that's not many). But the truth is that these are completely specialized cars that bear literally nothing in common with the street versions other than the shape of the body (before being cheated up!), and in the case of the Mopars, the general torsion bar suspension layout. You would think a blind person could figure it out that there is something about that "Daytona" this is not quite right. But it just takes one sucker to believe the story.
The 1969 Bobby Allison Mercury below is an excellent example. It's done much better than the Daytona in question and looks very attractive, but on close inspection, it is not a real Holman-Moody car, but a local sportsman type car made to look like a GN car with a mild small block engine. There is a reason the hood was not open. Also, you would NEVER see those hokey external trunk hinges on a factory Grand National car. Yet, this car has also been passed off as a real deal car and was displayed at the Amelia Island Concours, which is one of the most prestigious invitational car shows in the country. It hasn't been sold since it was built, but one day...
(http://www.superbirdclub.com/files/cokecars.jpg)
I hate to say that Bobby has not only signed the car but he has said it was his test car. The owner said Bobby told him that at the auction before he bought it. So in this case the signature does carry weight.
That is what convinced the owner to buy it. He the owner also has many other cars in his collection and they are normal street cars with numbers to show what they are. In the case of the race cars most are said to be real by individuals who drove or built them. I have only seen a couple of cars that actually have the Nichels stamps on them. And they are ones that have not gone through a restoration from a rusty grave.
I defense of the owner I believe the car was misrepresented to him. But as I said earlier he is going to try to verify it or not sell it he said. He is as upset as the rest of the car world it appears.
Quote from: wingman(22) on January 18, 2010, 11:29:55 PM
I hate to say that Bobby has not only signed the car but he has said it was his test car. The owner said Bobby told him that at the auction before he bought it. So in this case the signature does carry weight.
That is what convinced the owner to buy it. He the owner also has many other cars in his collection and they are normal street cars with numbers to show what they are. In the case of the race cars most are said to be real by individuals who drove or built them. I have only seen a couple of cars that actually have the Nichels stamps on them. And they are ones that have not gone through a restoration from a rusty grave.
I defense of the owner I believe the car was misrepresented to him. But as I said earlier he is going to try to verify it or not sell it he said. He is as upset as the rest of the car world it appears.
even if he felt it was real and it was misreprsented to him , he should have still restored the body with the correct looking components :Twocents:
Bill is it correct that the current owner is NOT Gordon Sprague. Sprague is the guy who built the car and it was up for auction in early December exactly represented like it is now. I am assuming the Mecum seller is someone who bought it from Sprague.
:popcrn: :popcrn: :popcrn:
Quote from: moparstuart on January 19, 2010, 12:03:47 PM
Quote from: wingman(22) on January 18, 2010, 11:29:55 PM
I hate to say that Bobby has not only signed the car but he has said it was his test car. The owner said Bobby told him that at the auction before he bought it. So in this case the signature does carry weight.
That is what convinced the owner to buy it. He the owner also has many other cars in his collection and they are normal street cars with numbers to show what they are. In the case of the race cars most are said to be real by individuals who drove or built them. I have only seen a couple of cars that actually have the Nichels stamps on them. And they are ones that have not gone through a restoration from a rusty grave.
I defense of the owner I believe the car was misrepresented to him. But as I said earlier he is going to try to verify it or not sell it he said. He is as upset as the rest of the car world it appears.
even if he felt it was real and it was misreprsented to him , he should have still restored the body with the correct looking components :Twocents:
yes thats true , you would of thought that !! don't make sence :shruggy: :popcrn:
Interesting article! Sweet looking car too! Thought ya'll would enjoy it.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/blog/from_the_marbles/post/Get-your-wallet-Bobby-Allison-s-69-Dodge-Charg;_ylt=AghJ1EqU5Jts1WaRcFXDS3nov7YF?urn=nascar,215220
Buddy Bakers #6 Daytona (outside pole in the Daytona 500) is on the Bay right now! Check it out
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Charger-Daytona-Outside-Pole-Position-of-the-1970-Daytona-500_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27aec2a0a2QQitemZ170435715234QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks
Quote from: grdprx on January 25, 2010, 02:54:28 PM
Interesting article! Sweet looking car too! Thought ya'll would enjoy it.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/blog/from_the_marbles/post/Get-your-wallet-Bobby-Allison-s-69-Dodge-Charg;_ylt=AghJ1EqU5Jts1WaRcFXDS3nov7YF?urn=nascar,215220
Quite a bit of debate about the car already in the Aero Forum. Interesting read there too.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,65464.0.html
Well, they're featuring it in their TV advertising. It says something like "banned by NASCAR before it had a chance to race".
Troy
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae240/Wingcars69/4771139668a8447326146l.jpg)
What's the story? :icon_smile_question:
'Cause it looks real (plug, nose, dam, wing, vent window, fuel filler, scoops).
And is it a 426 or the 305?
Quote from: 68X426 on January 25, 2010, 06:01:47 PM
What's the story? :icon_smile_question:
'Cause it looks real (plug, nose, dam, wing, vent window, fuel filler, scoops).
And is it a 426 or the 305?
WHAT plug, nose, dam, wing fuel filler and scoops?
You must be looking at a different car. Take a look at the pictures posted of the Mecum auction car early on in this thread and feel free to revise your comment about how real you think it is. Those all look WAY off to me.
Oh, and no one has been able to see the engine compartment of the car. My guess is that it would be readily apparent from a comparison of that car's engine to the known pictures of the Keith Black "lunchbox" motor to show the car's motor to be incorrect.
:Twocents:
No, not the fake. Nothing to revise, I was not writing about the fake. You missed that I was referencing the photo that nascarxx29 posted, that I replied to.
What's the story means the story on what looks like a real Allison 22 Daytona. It appears that the components are real, as I noted that seven of seven features are correct in the photo from nascarxx29.
The fake is still the fake. :eek2:
Gotcha. My mistake.
The picture Dave posted (and things like that only serve to confuse the issue, since this thread is SUPPOSED to be about the Mecum car) is probably of the #22 Rossi car that Doug/Aero426 talked about in his reply of Jan. 10th. AFAIK, this is the same car which was hawked at Barrett-Jackson a couple years ago. At the time, lots of folks thought it might bring a repeat of the big numbers Cotton Owens' #6 had pulled through eBay not too long before. Didn't happen. IIRC, that auction didn't break half of what the #6 had pulled, mostly due to the question marks Doug already spelled out.
Still, it was a correct - looking car... in a totally different league to the fake car at Mecum.
:cheers:
Quote from: 68X426 on January 25, 2010, 06:39:44 PM
No, not the fake. Nothing to revise, I was not writing about the fake. You missed that I was referencing the photo that nascarxx29 posted, that I replied to.
What's the story means the story on what looks like a real Allison 22 Daytona. It appears that the components are real, as I noted that seven of seven features are correct in the photo from nascarxx29.
The fake is still the fake. :eek2:
The #22 posted above is a real Nichels built race car. It "may" even be a real Allison car, or it may not. It has nothing to do with the Mecum auction car.
Quote from: hemigeno on January 25, 2010, 06:21:31 PM
Oh, and no one has been able to see the engine compartment of the car. My guess is that it would be readily apparent from a comparison of that car's engine to the known pictures of the Keith Black "lunchbox" motor to show the car's motor to be incorrect.
Late last week, Terry Nichels was sent photos of the Mecum car including the underhood. The owner asked the question, "So what part of this is a Nichels Engineering car?". The answer was predictable. Reportedly there is a lot of "stock" left under the hood with a 340 small block.
There to be compared Pat Mc kinney built one this guy in FL built one and the real one .I had pictures of all 3 not even sure sometimes which is which without a dated archive picture
http://www.picsearch.com/info.cgi?q=%221969%20DAYTONA%22&id=JIKvJ7TWbwiLcyzmcxhvf2FNi5wtZEQDBig3nmf3txo&start=41
My bad, I don't have a cool wing on the back of my charger, so I don't fly the Aero side much.... :pity:
http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/98998,9079/1969-Dodge-Daytona-Charger-NASCAR_photo.aspx
Quote from: hemigeno on January 25, 2010, 06:21:31 PM
Oh, and no one has been able to see the engine compartment of the car. My guess is that it would be readily apparent from a comparison of that car's engine to the known pictures of the Keith Black "lunchbox" motor to show the car's motor to be incorrect.
Gene, go to www.mecum.com (http://www.mecum.com) Scroll down the page and click on the Kissimmee auction video clip. They will show the underhood of the fake car. It has stock inner fenders and firewall - a total joke.
if this thing hits big bucks I'm having the Robbins family sign off on Marty.
Quote from: pettybird on January 27, 2010, 01:04:27 AM
if this thing hits big bucks I'm having the Robbins family sign off on Marty.
That could work for 'ya. Marty tested it, but never raced it. It was mothballed in a barn in amish country after he died and was recently discovered.
Quote from: Aero426 on January 27, 2010, 09:44:21 AM
Quote from: pettybird on January 27, 2010, 01:04:27 AM
if this thing hits big bucks I'm having the Robbins family sign off on Marty.
That could work for 'ya. Marty tested it, but never raced it. It was mothballed in a barn in amish country after he died and was recently discovered.
:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :icon_smile_big:
Marty's long lost cousin Marvin Robbins will vouch for the authenticity.
Quote from: Aero426 on January 27, 2010, 03:38:52 PM
Marty's long lost cousin Marvin Robbins will vouch for the authenticity.
You are KILLING me!! Damn funny. :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
Quote from: Aero426 on January 27, 2010, 09:44:21 AM
Quote from: pettybird on January 27, 2010, 01:04:27 AM
if this thing hits big bucks I'm having the Robbins family sign off on Marty.
That could work for 'ya. Marty tested it, but never raced it. It was mothballed in a barn in amish country after he died and was recently discovered.
it's a rare 5.7 liter hemi test car right now, but i could put a 340 in it if you think it'd help.
Would that make it even more rare, to have a cheated-up 305??
:scratchchin:
Quote from: Aero426 on January 27, 2010, 03:38:52 PM
Marty's long lost cousin Marvin Robbins will vouch for the authenticity.
I had to think about this overnight
it was
melvin petty
homer issac
baskin robbins
I had forgotten all about those names. Good times.
High Bid: $210,000...The bid goes on
210k and no sale? Perhaps the chandeliers in the building were doing the bidding.
Quote from: Aero426 on January 31, 2010, 12:57:11 AM
210k and no sale? Perhaps the chandeliers in the building were doing the bidding.
:smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: DUDE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE MONEY AND RAN
Doug,
I spoke to the owner on Friday about the car. He said we would talk after the auction and he would give me the status. If this car sells for $210,000.00 or more I am going to the bank and get the money to do my Hylton car. I should be able to get 3 or 4 hundred thousand for a real car.
I have not spoke with him yet so I do not know why it did not sell. I will keep you posted when I find out.
Bill
I notice that in spite of their assurances of concern for their reputation the house went ahead and auctioned the car anyway. Obvioulsy they decided there was no risk for themselves in the matter.
This whole Mecum acution car story is a joke.
I can't muster much sympathy for people who drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on cars that don't even pass the common-sense test. And they should also know about Bobby Allison's questionable recollections if they're gonna value his word on the authentication.
-------------------------------------
Has anyone in modern times ever built a genuinely realistic Grand National wing car replica? One that's not just a rollcaged production unibody and not a surviving vintage chassis either?
The only one I can think of is that recent Bill Goldberg superbird charity car, and they still didn't hack up that one enough to be accurate.
what was the result? i'm too lazy to sign in and look...
Quote from: pettybird on February 04, 2010, 06:21:17 PM
what was the result? i'm too lazy to sign in and look...
Opening bid of 100k, then Quickly bid up to 200k, stalled not meeting reserve, gaveled unsold. The promo video played right before the auction told the story of the car as represented by the seller. Bobby and Donnie Allison were there up on the block but made no representations about the actual car. Donnie told the crowd, "Whoever buys this car is gonna get a good one."
Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on February 01, 2010, 03:24:48 PM
Has anyone in modern times ever built a genuinely realistic Grand National wing car replica? One that's not just a rollcaged production unibody and not a surviving vintage chassis either?
The only one I can think of is that recent Bill Goldberg superbird charity car, and they still didn't hack up that one enough to be accurate.
It's not impossible, but very difficult to do one "as raced". It's hard enough to restore a real race chassis accurately, let alone make one from scratch. There are very few pieces to work with. The Goldberg car is a good example of doing a car they way someone "thought" it ought to be. But it's not how they were. I realize they were working with set donated pieces, yada, yada.
I spoke to the guy that did the work on the car at Mecum. The original owner wanted a car that he could race. The car was built to that specification. He said the parts that were there to begin with were scrapped and new parts were made to make it ready to race. The original owner had the car set up at the height it is now. This explains why the car does not look correct. It was never meant to be a clone of the 305 car. It was meant to look good and race it. It is a shame no pictures were taken before the car underwent the restoration.
The owner now said he was not going to sell it. He never wanted to buy a hornets nest. He was at the auction saw the car and thought it would be cool to have. It was represented by the original owner with a letter of authenticity and Bobby was there also. The current owner said he had no intention of pissing off the Mopar world.
Bill
Quote from: wingman(22) on February 05, 2010, 11:32:41 AM
I spoke to the guy that did the work on the car at Mecum. The original owner wanted a car that he could race. The car was built to that specification. He said the parts that were there to begin with were scrapped and new parts were made to make it ready to race. The original owner had the car set up at the height it is now. This explains why the car does not look correct. It was never meant to be a clone of the 305 car. It was meant to look good and race it. It is a shame no pictures were taken before the car underwent the restoration.
The owner now said he was not going to sell it. He never wanted to buy a hornets nest. He was at the auction saw the car and thought it would be cool to have. It was represented by the original owner with a letter of authenticity and Bobby was there also. The current owner said he had no intention of pissing off the Mopar world.
Bill
I'm sure auction houses are like tabloid magazines...... People can just be walking across the street and the paparazzi turn it into something else. It appears this is much the same, but in an automotive way? Owner just built a cool car for himself and then........
Troy
Except that it was said owner who provided the "letter of authenticity".
Mr. Gordon Sprague was the original owner. He is the one that provided the current owner with the letter.
Yes, and it's also worth mentioning that the current owner, even though he didn't want to "piss off the Mopar world" still went ahead with the sale and offered it as a legit version of the story being spun well after the fake pedigree was called out.
Oh, THAT Gordon Sprague. No surprise. It's all about making the sale and dropping names. I will leave it at that. :rotz:
http://www.gulfbreezenews.com/news/2008-08-14/front_page/002.html
http://alumni.fsu.edu/community/Document.Doc?id=498
http://www.fsu.edu/~fstime/FS-Times/Volume5/april00web/16april00.html
Yes that is true.
Quote from: 68X426 on February 05, 2010, 12:25:13 PM
Oh, THAT Gordon Sprague. No surprise. It's all about making the sale and dropping names. I will leave it at that. :rotz:
This is interesting, from the first link there........ Didn't know Bobby Allison won the '69 Daytona 500 :o Blows my whole idea of NASCAR history and everything I know.......
Quote from: wingman(22) on February 05, 2010, 11:32:41 AM
I spoke to the guy that did the work on the car at Mecum. The original owner wanted a car that he could race. The car was built to that specification. He said the parts that were there to begin with were scrapped and new parts were made to make it ready to race. The original owner had the car set up at the height it is now. This explains why the car does not look correct. It was never meant to be a clone of the 305 car. It was meant to look good and race it. It is a shame no pictures were taken before the car underwent the restoration.
The owner now said he was not going to sell it. He never wanted to buy a hornets nest. He was at the auction saw the car and thought it would be cool to have. It was represented by the original owner with a letter of authenticity and Bobby was there also. The current owner said he had no intention of pissing off the Mopar world.
Bill
Hi Bill, does the current owner still believe this car has some kind of real history?
Quote from: Ghoste on February 05, 2010, 12:10:25 PM
Yes, and it's also worth mentioning that the current owner, even though he didn't want to "piss off the Mopar world" still went ahead with the sale and offered it as a legit version of the story being spun well after the fake pedigree was called out.
Thank you. You nailed it.
Doug,
I don't know, he has no idea. We have discussed it and he does not know what to think. He said he really does not want to fool with it. It has become a pain for him. Not sure what he will do with the car. He has mentioned giving it to a charity.
He would have to take the car to Terry and let him look at what is left of the original parts.
Bill
Quote from: wingman(22) on February 05, 2010, 02:02:45 PM
Doug,
I don't know, he has no idea. We have discussed it and he does not know what to think. He said he really does not want to fool with it. It has become a pain for him. Not sure what he will do with the car. He has mentioned giving it to a charity.
He would have to take the car to Terry and let him look at what is left of the original parts.
Bill
My understanding is that he sent Terry Nichels some pics already. Given that the stock inner fenders and firewall are present, I would think that says enough that it cannot be a Nichels car.
That may be true, but the guy that built the car said he took all of the old parts and put new parts on for Sprague to race the car. So from the floor pans up it was made into a 70 charger to use on the road course. Without any pics from when it was found no telling what it was. The owner said Nichels would have to see the car in person before it could be totally said it was not a Nichel's car. Not sure what his plans are with that.
I bought a car to do a clone of my dads car with. I am going to make a street car so I can drive it. I plan on trying to do the work mostly myself. In the mean time I am saving money to start on the Hylton car. Maybe we can race one day..................
Bill
Quote from: wingman(22) on February 05, 2010, 02:33:33 PM
... Maybe we can race one day..................
Bill
A Daytona and Superbird......... Wonder you'll get the pole........... Guess it doesn't really matter, it all depends on who finishes first... Ask Buddy Baker during the '69 Daytona 500.......
not only that, but you couldnt win the 69 Daytona 500 in a Daytona because it didnt exist yet :lol:
It's BAAAAACCCCCK!!!!
Now it will be attempted to be sold at Russo & Steele in Scottsdale in January.
http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1969-Dodge-Daytona/6504 (http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1969-Dodge-Daytona/6504)
The Sprague zombie car returns. :popcrn: Still no pictures of the alleged 305 motor. ::)
Quote from: Aero426 on December 22, 2010, 02:18:45 PM
It's BAAAAACCCCCK!!!!
Sweet Mother-of-Mopar...........
Quote from: hemi68charger on December 22, 2010, 03:06:19 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on December 22, 2010, 02:18:45 PM
It's BAAAAACCCCCK!!!!
Sweet Mother-of-Mopar...........
:rotz: .... whats going on with this car !! every one can see its not what its supposed to be !! but its still advertised as such !! perhaps there is some truth to it :shruggy: as such a bad copy /clone / home made car , would be laughed at & not given any publicity , :brickwall: :scratchchin: :popcrn:
train wreck
Quote from: moparstuart on December 22, 2010, 03:55:50 PM
train wreck
:scratchchin: perhaps big foot built it :yesnod:
Quote from: moparstuart on December 22, 2010, 03:55:50 PM
train wreck
As you wish........
(http://www.affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/Train_20wreck_202_20vertical_20050215_small.jpg)
Quote from: Richard Cranium on December 22, 2010, 04:44:31 PM
Quote from: moparstuart on December 22, 2010, 03:55:50 PM
train wreck
As you wish........
(http://www.affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/Train_20wreck_202_20vertical_20050215_small.jpg)
:smilielol: I have that picture on the wall here in my salvage yard office
All of the above and the sad unbelievable truth is some moron with alot more money than brains had this car built with a nose and wing made by one of Jerry's kids when they could have spent probably less and had the correct parts . What a F===in Jackass !!!
Whoever buys this car simply put gets what they deserve to spend that much money without doing research
And once again, shame on the auction house for participating. Even though we know their rationale, doesn't make it ethical.
The more you look at this auction (and the original Mecum disaster), the more ridiculous this car looks. Bobby Allison never won the Daytona 500 in any Dodge. Only Petty (7) and Yarborough (4) won more 500's than Bobby. He is tied with Dale Jarrett (my personal fav) and Jeff Gordon with three 500 wins. Interestingly, each of Allison's 500 wins were somewhat "interesting".
(1) His first came in 1978, in a Bud Moore Ford. He and Buddy Baker wrecked each other in their qualifying race and ended up dueling it out for the 500 win on Sunday. Most of the favorites (Petty, Pearson, Waltrip and Foyt) wrecked and Allison wound up with his first win in the last 67 races he had entered. Looking at the rundown of this race, it's a virtual who's who of racing history. Bobby was 40 years old when he won this race.
(2) His second 500 win came in 1982, in a DiGard Buick. This race win became notorious because Allison lost his rear bumper early in the race from a minor scrape with Cale's car. The car seemed to run better without it and DiGard crew chief at the time (and future Nascar head honcho) Gary Nelson was accused of rigging the bumper to fall off to gain speed.
(3) Bobby's last 500 win (also in a Buick, this one owned by the Stavola Bros.) is his most famous and the last race he ever won. He had to outrun his son Davey down the stretch in front of one of the largest TV audiences in Nascar history at the time. I remember watching this race vividly, and it was a great race. This race is also famous for the barrel-roll flip King Richard took exiting turn 4 early in the going. Can you imagine the whirlwind if this happened today? Imagine if Dale Sr. had to outrun Dale Jr. in the biggest race of the year?
The fact that Bobby signed off on this particular (fake) car is really irrelevant. Bobby suffered major injuries in a Pocono crash later in the 1988 season and admits to this day that he cannot remember much of his racing career at all. In fact, one of his greatest regrets is watching the tape of himself beating (the late) Davey at Daytona and not being able to remember it. I can't imagine what that emotion must feel like. Surreal to say the least.
Those listing this car as anything to do with the "real" racing history of Nascar or Bobby Allison, really ought to be ashamed of themselves for even presenting this to Bobby. For that one reason alone, this car would never see an auction block I have my name on. I wouldn't buy a cup of coffee from Dana Mecum or these crooks...
Caveat emptor...
It's just a shame that a real Charger was harmed during the making of this imposter.
It can "mow down" the competition!
(http://images17.fotki.com/v1622/photos/4/40875/108985/7731large-vi.jpg)
nice brush hog
Great view of the underhood. Mario Rossi must have elected not to modify the production car firewall for cowl induction versus the option to run windshield wipers. The full factory inner fenders are bizarre and must be why the wheel stance looks so odd. Fewer stones kicked up in the engine bay too, I suppose. ;)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/AllisonUH.jpg)
isn't that a firewall insulation nail over by the bulkhead connector hole?
it DOES get hot in race cars, I know, but...
Quote from: pettybird on January 07, 2011, 01:03:22 AM
isn't that a firewall insulation nail over by the bulkhead connector hole?
it DOES get hot in race cars, I know, but...
yep looks like a firewall insulation nail to me also hmmm ... :scratchchin:
interesting picture :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :popcrn: :shruggy: :popcrn:
No raised torque boxes for the front spring mounts, stock driveshaft tunnel, stock width wheel houses.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/interior.jpg)
I just noticed the "square" fender scoops..hey, I'm old...
(probably a little late on this, sorry)
The February Hemmings lists this steaming pile as a no-sale (high bid of $57,500.00) at a recent Biloxi, MS auction. Even at that price, the high bidder must having been holding his bidder's paddle in one hand and a crack pipe in the other.
Because 70% of the people looking at it don't know how to tell. They just read the lot description with Allison's endorsement and another bs myth continues to live.
What music do you think Bobby Allison must have enjoyed listening to on the factory stereo speakers?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF1342_3.jpg)
That is an incredible photo. Great observation you make. :bow:
This has got to be the funniest thread ever. :lol:
Quote from: 68X426 on January 18, 2011, 06:25:10 PM
That is an incredible photo. Great observation you make. :bow:
This has got to be the funniest thread ever. :lol:
The lawn mower just kills me. I have it saved for wallpaper.
Quote from: Aero426 on January 18, 2011, 06:10:42 PM
What music do you think Bobby Allison must have enjoyed listening to on the factory stereo speakers?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF1342_3.jpg)
giant waste of a three speaker dash
That is just so stupid. I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could think that car is legit.
I wonder if they left the factory undercoating to keep the sound level down for Bobby?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF1336_2.jpg)
Quote from: Aero426 on January 19, 2011, 12:32:56 PM
I wonder if they left the factory undercoating to keep the sound level down for Bobby?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF1336_2.jpg)
:rofl:
You're a regular Mopar-Sherlock Holmes................ :2thumbs:
Whomever built it must not have had access to a proper 8 3/4 rear end.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF1334_3.jpg)
Weren't nearly all them acid dipped? Or at least stripped bare? More good work Sherlock. :yesnod:
Quote from: Aero426 on January 19, 2011, 12:53:49 PM
Whomever built it must not have had access to a proper 8 3/4 rear end.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF1334_3.jpg)
I spy what appears to be rear disc brakes. Nascar was 4 Wheel Drums back in 1970-1971.
Quote from: 68X426 on January 19, 2011, 12:54:46 PM
Weren't nearly all them acid dipped? Or at least stripped bare? More good work Sherlock. :yesnod:
The Ford and Mopar factory cars from this time were built from bare bodies in primer dip. The bodies in the photos are "waiting to become".
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/TMP106.jpg)
Quote from: learical1 on January 19, 2011, 12:58:47 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on January 19, 2011, 12:53:49 PM
Whomever built it must not have had access to a proper 8 3/4 rear end.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF1334_3.jpg)
I spy what appears to be rear disc brakes. Nascar was 4 Wheel Drums back in 1970-1971.
So is that a 9" Ford rear with the spring hangers welded to the rear rails? I'm cerainly no expert on wing cars, I've had one for almost 10 years now and am still learning, but even I can see this car is a complete turd, cobbled out of a seemingly decent charger.
Richard Petty signed my dash so maybe i should auction my car as his long-lost street "test" vehicle! it's even blue!
Nice looking Vette in the background though!
Scott
I really dig the angle iron cross member mounts. Why didn't Nichels think of that? So simple, just like the jitterbug, it plumb evaded him (with apologies to Jimmy Buffett), I guess. And, say, aren't those air shocks? Sweet. Wonder why Rossi needed extensions on the top shock mounts, though? Must have been to gain extra height for the mower deck. I am sure that Rossi left the dum-dum in place to improve the bass response of the stereo...it is all about the music after all. Or, maybe it was to break the boundry layer of air under the car just like Petty's '68 crinkle Road Runner roof?...Yeah...that's the ticket! But, of course, the best are those disc brakes. That Rossi guy was a real trend setter. Years, in fact, ahead of his time and the rules book. The late model style panhard rod is another cutting edge addition that Mario must have come up with. Say, maybe he was a time traveller? And, I am so sure that Ronnie Householder was just fine and dandy with that F-O-R-D differential under his factory backed DODGE chassis...right? And that really low hanging, late model style, fuell cell well must have been another of Rossi's "aero-tricks" (just like the tunnel back rear window and the low hanging "parachute" style lower shock mounts). Sure looks like a real speed secret to me.
The Russo folks have been made aware of the car's shortcomings and the errors in their own "historical" recitation. And yet the listing remains unmodified. Hmmm.
The A-pillar down bar on the cage should be welded to the A-pillar of the body. This setup as shown is very strange.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF6471.jpg)
Word from the auction is the car has a street car VIN on the dashboard.
Hemi car no doubt.
:lol:
Quote from: C5HM on January 21, 2011, 07:57:41 PM
Hemi car no doubt.
:lol:
:slap:
Try to keep up, it's an alleged Rossi built 305 NASCAR small block.
No doubt the hook on the roll bar is to hang an extra driving suit on. :o
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF6471.jpg)
[/quote]
Quote from: 68X426 on January 21, 2011, 08:56:15 PM
Quote from: C5HM on January 21, 2011, 07:57:41 PM
Hemi car no doubt.
:lol:
:slap:
Try to keep up, it's an alleged Rossi built 305 NASCAR small block.
Oh don't worry, he's up to speed all right. :smilielol:
Doug, I guess my humor (complete with happy face, even) was a bit too subtle for some. *sigh*
It will be interesting to see what the turd garners tonight. Did you see that the Bud Moore Torino was a no sale @ $155,000.00...and that's a real deal car? I did not see what Dave Tom's Monte Carlo brought. But I am imagining it is less than that.
I find the fact that Alcazar is ignoring both his physical senses, first person complaints and the opprobrium of the web to still feature the "test" Daytona (at the auction) a very disappointing result. Makes me feel like Diogenes again.
Of course, I am probably the bigger fool looking for honesty in the carney, car auction world in the first place.
What I will never understand is how someone could have the stones to snooker Bobby Allison (burdened as he is by the lasting effects of his racing shunts) into adopting that car as the real deal. It is just criminal.
I realize that many of the auctions can't know everything that there is to know about every auto that crosses their stage. But just a little bit of research and even my 7 year old sitting here on my lap can tell you that this car isn't legit. He noticed things about the car that aren't right. I can't believe that someone who was willing to spend any of their own money would buy this car. Its crazy.
Perhaps if you make a large enough sign, people will believe the "FACTS".
Interesting that the best they could do for a photo is Bobby in a Buick.
Thanks to Diego for the photo.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/DSC_1030.jpg)
You have to admit, the signage does a great job of hiding the turd's butt ugly beak.
And why would they want any comparison shots of a real car anyway? That wouldn't really , ahem, profit them in any way, would it?
Quote from: C5HM on January 22, 2011, 04:13:10 PM
You have to admit, the signage does a great job of hiding the turd's butt ugly beak.
Chickenhawk.
Bawk Bawk.
(http://fatfinch.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/34832dovi_w.jpg)
That bird has a better looking beak than the Daytona for sure. And more authentic, to boot.
Quote from: Richard Cranium on January 21, 2011, 09:04:17 PM
No doubt the hook on the roll bar is to hang an extra driving suit on. :o
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF6471.jpg)
It's a helmet hook.
http://pitstopusa.com/i-5067350-allstar-performance-helmet-hook-1-1-2-diameter-bar.html
What that car needs is a big shovel ......... for all the bull $$$$ ! What a horrible job! :puke:
Sold....$83,000
The seller must be doing cartwheels.
What did PT Barnum say?
Quote from: Hemi_tyme on January 22, 2011, 11:46:46 PM
Sold....$83,000
:icon_smile_blackeye: :icon_smile_blackeye:
Pool starts now: how soon before its relisted at Mecham?
Watched the auction on the web. Hadn't seen it before, but noticed that the turd still had its chrome factory gas cap in place. That must have really speeded up those pit stops at the track. HA!
I never really had much respect for Alcazar before tonight. He always struck me as a snake oil selling kind of fellow. I have no respect whatsoever for him now after he pimped the P.O.S. hard to the crowd. He stopped the bidding (lack luster as it was), held up poor old misguided Bobby Allison's "letter of authentication" and laid all of his and Allison's credibility on the line by asserting the car was the real deal, without doubt. At least Mecum had the good taste to simply hustle the the monstrosity across the stage as quickly as possible. After his R&S performance, there is just no doubt about Alcazar's complete lack of ethics and total whore status. I really hope the new owner (if the sale was genuine...which remains to be seen) sues the Hell out R&S when he discovers just how bogus the car is. And that won't take long.
:o :popcrn:
Quote from: tan top on January 23, 2011, 04:44:00 AM
:o :popcrn:
I notice that you eat a lot of popcorn. :lol:
Quote from: Richard Cranium on January 23, 2011, 06:40:48 AM
Quote from: tan top on January 23, 2011, 04:44:00 AM
:o :popcrn:
I notice that you eat a lot of popcorn. :lol:
:lol: should see me when i go to the cinema :popcrn: ;)
:2thumbs:
John Donne was not a pop-corn fan, I'm told. Go figure.
Word from another board member is that the dash has a '68 Charger VIN (318 car).
Quote from: Aero426 on January 23, 2011, 07:34:45 PM
Word from another board member is that the dash has a '68 Charger VIN (318 car).
Well, that explains why there's a small block under the hood. :lol:
Quote from: Aero426 on January 23, 2011, 07:34:45 PM
Word from another board member is that the dash has a '68 Charger VIN (318 car).
Might be good for a laugh to get that VIN and run a CarFax on it...to see when the
car turd was last...er...
raced (yeah,
that's the ticket).
Quote from: Richard Cranium on January 23, 2011, 08:08:06 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on January 23, 2011, 07:34:45 PM
Word from another board member is that the dash has a '68 Charger VIN (318 car).
Well, that explains why there's a small block under the hood. :lol:
:lol:
Quote from: Richard Cranium on January 23, 2011, 08:08:06 PM
Quote from: Aero426 on January 23, 2011, 07:34:45 PM
Word from another board member is that the dash has a '68 Charger VIN (318 car).
Well, that explains why there's a small block under the hood. :lol:
Check the block's VIN stamp - might get lucky and add to the car's value.
I attended the Russo and Steele Auction in Scottsdale this past week and had the opportunity to see the "infamous" Bobby Allison test Daytona. What a piece of S****, sorry but anyone who thinks this is in any way, shape or form a legit race Daytona is sadly mistaken. The rear wing, nose and fender scoops are clearly "homemade" and look as if an eighth grade auto shop class did the work (sorry eighth grade classes...you would have done a much better job). Sad that someone would put so much effort into the car only to top it off with some of the worst "wingcar" parts ever mounted on a Charger. (And, that's just the start of a long list of various items that you just wouldn't find on a real race car). And, the "fact sheet" that was posted on the windshield clearly stated that this was the Daytona that Bobby Allison drove along with many other inconsistent "facts". If I were Mario Rossi I would sue anyone that associated my race shop with this thing. But since he is no longer around, he can't defend himself from being associated with this thing. It was a good thing the other three Daytona's present, were not parked anywhere near this "thing". It brings home the fact that it's a buyer beware situation when you go to these auto auctions, and you better do your homework BEFORE putting down your money. Sadly, this car wasn't the only one being passed off as something it wasn't. A fool and his money are soon parted.......as this thing actually sold................... :eek2:
wlpi
I just registered here tonight after reading alot of cool stuff and this car is a MESS. I do not know anything about Daytonas but anyone that knows about race cars would not believe this thing was ever ran on a track. I have been around race cars for years and good god, that thing was a waste of car.
Should we start a pool as to how long before it's for sale again? I figure that it will be about summer before the current owner gets tired of everyone telling him how badly he was ripped off before he goes searching for a new sucker. (and I also put money that it will continue to be promoted as legit)
Quote from: Ghoste on January 27, 2011, 07:30:29 AM
Should we start a pool as to how long before it's for sale again? I figure that it will be about summer before the current owner gets tired of everyone telling him how badly he was ripped off before he goes searching for a new sucker. (and I also put money that it will continue to be promoted as legit)
Now that is a bet I would
not take. I'll bet this hits the market again too and it'll have a crazy price on it...
does anyone have a complete russo and steele auction result sheet? there were a bunch of cars I wanted to know about...
I had a really "BAD" feeling when I saw this car @ auction And I cant remember Allison ever driving such a car. Maybe I missed something in 1969-1970 NASCAR
Look at the beautiful workmanship.... :eek2:
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/benlavigne/Arizona/Russo%20And%20Steele/RussoandSteele330.jpg)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/benlavigne/Arizona/Russo%20And%20Steele/RussoandSteele331.jpg)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l66/benlavigne/Arizona/Russo%20And%20Steele/RussoandSteele329.jpg)
::) Ben
BTW, it did sell, for 91 300$ !!!! :shruggy:
Ben
Wow, it's got the standard Charger back window. Someone's got some big balls to pass that car off.
And a small brain to buy it.
Quote from: wingman(22) on January 24, 2011, 10:04:13 AM
My dad is no longer around, so maybe I should sue for SLANDER. It is my fathers good name that will always be associated with the car. It is a shame that people take advantage of people when they are not around or at a weak point. Just like Bobby, I am sure if I put a car that was close to the real deal in front of him he would probably say it was real. I like Bobby but he was not intimate with the cars like my fathers mechanics were. I have talked with them and this car NEVER did exist. And as someone mentioned if it were a test car why would Larry Rathegab not know about it. My father was loosing his sponsor in 1971 and I am sure if this were a real deal Chrysler would have had something to say about it.
I would love to find out who bought the car. Does anyone know?
...that's an interesting thought...are you in a position where this car or the circus around it could cause you economic harm?
qw
Here is some fine "Grand National" cage work.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/Aero426h/Mecum%20Allison/DSCF1321_2.jpg)
Is that a volt female plug on the right under the window? Don't tell me it's wired for Christmas lights! :lol:
At least then it would be good for something.
Quote from: Richard Cranium on January 28, 2011, 10:26:50 AM
Is that a volt female plug on the right under the window? Don't tell me it's wired for Christmas lights! :lol:
There appears to be a dry sump tank in the back. Must be a plug in element to pre-heat the oil.
There is "Sound Deadner" sprayed in the door. Was not aware that "Body's in White" came with Sound Deadner in them ?
Doug
Quote from: Aero426 on January 28, 2011, 10:42:01 AM
Quote from: Richard Cranium on January 28, 2011, 10:26:50 AM
Is that a volt female plug on the right under the window? Don't tell me it's wired for Christmas lights! :lol:
There appears to be a dry sump tank in the back. Must be a plug in element to pre-heat the oil.
Given the the overall package, I'm sticking with Christmas lights. :lol:
or one of the new "hybrid" cars and that is used to recharge the battery?? :D
Apparently the "sale" of the Allison car did not consumate. The car is not listed among the "sold" cars on the R/S site. I'm sure there is an explanation. Probably a "problem with the bid" or something like that. Auction smoke and mirrors? No way!
Glad to know it didn't do the big price like that but it will still turn up again very soon in another auction I'm sure. As for making the Statue of Liberty vanish (or whatever magic trick we saw). :rotz: :down:
Dash VIN is: XP29F8B203482 Can anyone say "Carfax"?
It's baaaaaaaaack!
http://vicariauction.com/listing/1969-dodge-daytona-racecar/ (http://vicariauction.com/listing/1969-dodge-daytona-racecar/)
Don't bother calling the auction house to tell them the car is a fake. They own the car.
Quote - "Comes with Certificate of Authenticity"
Right. :smilielol:
Quote from: 68X426 on April 16, 2012, 01:18:39 PM
Quote - "Comes with Certificate of Authenticity"
Right. :smilielol:
It really does have a COA from Bobby, whatever that is worth.
Sad, sad, sad.
its crazy :rotz: ,
Quote from: Aero426 on April 16, 2012, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: 68X426 on April 16, 2012, 01:18:39 PM
Quote - "Comes with Certificate of Authenticity"
Right. :smilielol:
It really does have a COA from Bobby, whatever that is worth.
An authentic and true piece of paper and in the past worth $324,000. The car remains a fraud.
This car isn't the one that sold for 324k. That one was a real Nichels race chassis.
What has this one sold for? Any known public prices or all private sales?
I called Meccum the first time car was out there. Did no good. So I have just left it alone I know the truth about my dads cars and that is all that matters...........
Quote from: 68X426 on April 16, 2012, 03:32:53 PM
What has this one sold for? Any known public prices or all private sales?
It apparently sold from Gordon Sprague (who vintage raced it) to the current owner several years ago. Current owner (Vicari) has offered it up at Mecum and later at Russo Steele. Amazingly, these seemingly credible auction houses allowed the car to be consigned and offered up, even after being given actual notice of what it isn't. It was declared sold across the block at Russo-Steele, but for what could be explained by a variety of reasons, it went home with the seller. The bid price was listed earlier in this thread, but it was under 100k. Again, that doesn't matter as it didn't really sell.
What does Vicari have into it?
Quote from: Ghoste on April 17, 2012, 11:51:16 AM
What does Vicari have into it?
I have no idea. Never saw any sales results from when Sprague originally sold it.
http://www.wwnboa.org/mckinney.htm