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Author Topic: Doing a little dyno testing on a low compression 440.  (Read 71113 times)
Cooter
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« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 08:16:11 PM »

So the prices of cast crank junk will stay the same if the cost duplicate what you've done here is like FI Vs carbs...
All depends on how much it takes to get a low comp motor to perform like a high comp motor that Chrysler already took the hit on...
Would be very interested in a cost per hp gained on a build like this. Or a total for the build...
Afterall, those FAST guys look like stock cars and run rediculous times, but enough money and anything can be forced to perform...

Cost? Lots of people wondering the same thing. I figure anybody with a computer can spend 20 minutes on the Summit Racing website and figure the whole thing out. If that's too much work............well.......
Evidently,  this coming from the same guy that got a set of 906 heads to flow what aluminum ones do.....I just know your gonna GIVE all those porting secrets away cheap. This is what I refer to here, but if its to much work to post your high dollar engine secrets, no problem...I made over 700 hp once with a 1977 440...I have no problem telling how much it cost either. $600 for big shot Nitrous kit and another $300 or so in fuel components. I don't deal in trickery, I cut straight to the point Money...but if that's to hard to understand.......well......
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2013, 06:04:06 AM »

It would be best to take a pair of Stealth of heads and do a valve job rather than port 516 iron heads for this project. More power gain there. Then you don't have to factor in porting iron into the cost.
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HPP
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 08:34:33 AM »

Okay, I'll take a stab at it.

Test 1; low mileage, running, smog era 440, $500, $100 for summit cam, $100 for a swap meet 650 carb, $700 for 272 hp

Test 2, swap meet headers $80, $780 for 287hp, or $80 for 15 peak hp gain

Test 3, swap meet 750 carb $100, $780 for 297 hp, or no difference from test 2.

Test 4, M1 single plane, $260 new, I rarely ever see these at swaps, $1040 for 312 hp, or $340 for 40 hp gain.

Test 5, add .509 cam, $210 new, $1250 for 362 hp, we are at $550 for 90 hp gain.

Test 6,  850 Demon and spacer, $700 new, but you might be able to score these at a swap meet for $500, $1750 for 387 hp, or  $1050 for 115 hp gain.

Test 7, ported heads, lets say $1500 for a set if you pay for porting, $3250 for 449 hp, or $2250 for 177 hp gain.
Alternatively, if you have access to the heads already and do your own porting, $1750 for 449 hp, or $1050 for 177 hp gain.

So the heads are a big variable. One way is on par with the nitrous shot, one way is twice that. Both ways do not require regular bottle refills.

I also suspect the choice of components testing was due to what's on hand, which means some guys could duplicate this for maybe a few hundred bucks with their junk on hand.
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2013, 08:30:22 AM »

Everyone's expenses would be different on an engine build like this. As far as cylinder heads go these were nothing exotic. As I stated earlier, they only flow 250 cfm @ .500" and 250 cfm doesn't take much work on a 452, 346, 906 or 915 head. I'm not a guy who desires to build engines like this, but there is nothing wrong with it if that is what your budget is. Even the stock 906 head made 387 HP at 7.45:1 compression.

This whole build was just to have some fun on our public dyno day. I just thought I would share what we found out in case it could be helpful to someone on a strict budget. Many different cams, intakes, headers and carburetors can be substituted with similar results.
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HPP
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2013, 08:56:52 AM »

Agreed. I think we all can think of a post sometime in the past where someone asked these exact same questions about their later model big block and this is a graphic example if what those proposed changes would result in. I think we all agree it is not the ideal engine building method, but I also think there are a number of guys out there who do things this way, so this validates what those changes produce.  IMO, just shy of 400 hp for under $2000 is not too shabby of a budget build.
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maxwellwedge
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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2013, 09:48:25 AM »

Everyone's expenses would be different on an engine build like this. As far as cylinder heads go these were nothing exotic. As I stated earlier, they only flow 250 cfm @ .500" and 250 cfm doesn't take much work on a 452, 346, 906 or 915 head. I'm not a guy who desires to build engines like this, but there is nothing wrong with it if that is what your budget is. Even the stock 906 head made 387 HP at 7.45:1 compression.

This whole build was just to have some fun on our public dyno day. I just thought I would share what we found out in case it could be helpful to someone on a strict budget. Many different cams, intakes, headers and carburetors can be substituted with similar results.

Thanks very much for doing this exercise and taking the time to type it out and share with us all here. It is very much appreciated.  cheers
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cdr
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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2013, 08:00:10 PM »

 2thumbs
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firefighter3931
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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2013, 06:02:51 AM »

Good info and again thanks for posting  2thumbs

This series of dyno runs shows just how important cylinder head flow is and how it impacts power production.  Wink

A 70hp gain from a simple head swap is significant and highlights how poor the unported factory head performs.  Tongue


Ron
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Budnicks
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2013, 11:17:21 AM »

Everyone's expenses would be different on an engine build like this. As far as cylinder heads go these were nothing exotic. As I stated earlier, they only flow 250 cfm @ .500" and 250 cfm doesn't take much work on a 452, 346, 906 or 915 head. I'm not a guy who desires to build engines like this, but there is nothing wrong with it if that is what your budget is. Even the stock 906 head made 387 HP at 7.45:1 compression.

This whole build was just to have some fun on our public dyno day. I just thought I would share what we found out in case it could be helpful to someone on a strict budget. Many different cams, intakes, headers and carburetors can be substituted with similar results.
cheers Thanks for the time & effort sharing all the information with all of us here...  2thumbs
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2013, 11:19:01 AM »

Good info and again thanks for posting  2thumbs

This series of dyno runs shows just how important cylinder head flow is and how it impacts power production.  Wink

A 70hp gain from a simple head swap is significant and highlights how poor the unported factory head performs.  Tongue


Ron
exactly...
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femtnmax
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2013, 07:12:58 PM »

Thank you very much for running the tests and posting the results. 
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Phil
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2013, 03:46:01 PM »

2thumbs Good stuff!

If you ever get bored... I've always wondered what a factory stock engine would actually put out if it were just blueprinted. It seems that the tolerances were so far off on some (most) of these engines that you never really knew what you were getting - especially in regards to compression and head flow. I've known guys all my life who mix-n-match factory parts to get the best performance but I don't recall them really spending time at the machine shop getting everything fine-tuned. Racers probably do but I don't know many of them. A couple of the 440s I've picked up have had closed chamber heads added (and probably cams) but I've never measured them to see if the builder was paying attention.

Troy
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Homerr
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2013, 01:31:27 PM »

Would love to see what an Edelbrock or EZ EFI bolt-on kit does.

I know....$$$.
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RallyeMike
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« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2013, 10:50:38 PM »

I missed this earlier and glad I found it.  My first cheapo road race engine was a 78 stock bore +piston motorhome 440 along the lines of build #6. I never dyno'ed it, so this was interesting to read.

On top of the message that the lowly motorhome 440's are a bargain, even iron heads are coming up cheap these days with all the aluminum options out there. Some porting templates and some inexpensive grinding tools and you can be off to the races for pennies.

Thanks for all the work Oldguy !
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1969 Charger 500, 440/727/3.23, F8/C6W, PS, PB, AC, PW... Driver.
1972 Charger, Grand Sport #41, 383/833OD/3.23, ...170mph.
1973 Charger "T/A", 440/727/3.55, ...Doughnut machine.

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heyoldguy
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« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2013, 05:03:09 PM »

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.

We're gonna do it, puttin' it into the Satellite tomorrow.
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cdr
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« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2013, 05:06:00 PM »

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.

We're gonna do it, puttin' it into the Satellite tomorrow.

 2thumbs 2thumbs 2thumbs
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TwistedShifter
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« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2013, 03:51:00 PM »

Great article. General question, what was the timing set at during the dyno runs? I know that the cast pistons and lower compression would be a factor, but just for learning. I'd be guessing 33-35 degrees total timing?
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2013, 07:29:09 AM »

The last pull at 449 HP was with 40 degrees total.
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HPP
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« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2013, 08:45:39 AM »

Would love to see what an Edelbrock or EZ EFI bolt-on kit does.

I know....$$$.

Might improve the BSFC numbers, but I doubt it would make more power.
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Budnicks
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« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2013, 11:45:24 AM »

The last pull at 449 HP was with 40 degrees total.
Is the 72 Satty drivable yet ??, was that your dyno on that pull or was that pull on a wheel driven dyno ?? 40* of timing, that's interesting, it seems to like timing allot...
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2013, 09:04:18 AM »

Yep it's up and running. Just got it fired on Thursday, left for Wyoming and haven't had any time to work out the jetting on the carb. Runs nice around on the street with a slight hesitation just on throttle tip in.

Runs really nice considering it has what I believe are 2.46 gears in the rear end. No tag on the rear end so we jacked one tire off the ground, put the tranny in neutral, spun the tire one revolution and counted the number of turns the drive shaft spun.......1-1/4 revolutions. This would inticate about a 2.50 ratio and I believe some 8-1/4 rears in 1972 have 2.46:1 ratios.

Horsepower was measured at the flywheel.

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Budnicks
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« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2013, 03:38:57 PM »

Yep it's up and running. Just got it fired on Thursday, left for Wyoming and haven't had any time to work out the jetting on the carb. Runs nice around on the street with a slight hesitation just on throttle tip in.

Runs really nice considering it has what I believe are 2.46 gears in the rear end. No tag on the rear end so we jacked one tire off the ground, put the tranny in neutral, spun the tire one revolution and counted the number of turns the drive shaft spun.......1-1/4 revolutions. This would inticate about a 2.50 ratio and I believe some 8-1/4 rears in 1972 have 2.46:1 ratios.

Horsepower was measured at the flywheel.


Thanks Jim
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shortbox
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« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2014, 02:04:10 PM »

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.


I'd like to see that too  icon_smile_big

My guess is that tuning this with a stock converter would be real fun...in gear the converter would pull the engine down bigtime. You'd have to crank up the idle speed and the idle circuit would become a non player.  brickwall

This one would start and run with the distributor locked out....no problem  Wink I'd be willing to bet that it made peak power at well over 40* of timing   scope

Be interesting to see how it performs at the track....


Ron.           So what would you suggest for a torque convertor,I am considering a build like this because the bottom end is still good.
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RallyeMike
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« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2014, 01:31:07 PM »

Quote
I believe some 8-1/4 rears in 1972 have 2.46:1 ratios.

Yes. It's actually 2.45:1.
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1969 Charger 500, 440/727/3.23, F8/C6W, PS, PB, AC, PW... Driver.
1972 Charger, Grand Sport #41, 383/833OD/3.23, ...170mph.
1973 Charger "T/A", 440/727/3.55, ...Doughnut machine.

Drive as fast as you want to on a public road! Click here for info: http://www.sscc.us/
djcarguy
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« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2015, 01:37:04 PM »

 popcrn popcrn 2thumbs RantExplode Twocents
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