New Challenger with HellCat engine faster than the Daytona?

[wingcar]

This is an interesting debate as to whether or not the Challenger with the new "HellCat" engine will be able to break the 44 year old speed record set by the 1969 Dodge Daytona Charger. Of course until a car actually hits the track it's all basically theoretical...But it still makes for a very interesting discussion none the less.

How fast can HellCat go?

by David Zatz

ZF's eight-speed automatic, used in numerous Chrysler cars and trucks, has a stunning range: its first gear has a low 4.71:1 ratio, while its top gear is a high 0.67:1. That automatic is the key to giving the V6 Charger its V8-speed acceleration, along with 31 mpg on the highway.

What will that transmission do for the top speed of the hottest Mopars?
The fastest four-seat Mopar ever made was the Dodge Charger Daytona, which broke the 200 mph barrier in 1970, thanks to the hot 426 Hemi V8 and a great deal of time in wind tunnels. Can the new Charger and Challenger beat that time?

The Charger Daytona's drag coefficient was a stunning 0.28, a number that is still quite good over four decades later. 2014 Chargers and Challengers might not reach that level of slip, but with the supercharged HellCat engine and the superb gear range of the eight-speed automatic, they probably won't need to.
With currently-used P245/45R20 tires and final drive ratio of 3.06, when the engine nears the current Hemi redline of 6,400 rpm (let's say, when it's at 6,200 rpm), various calculators claim the car should be going 208 mph, in theory. In reality, numerous factors get in the way, including wheel slip, aerodynamic drag, and such.

The eight speed automatic drops the top gear from 0.83 to 0.67, while raising first gear from 3.59 to 4.71. That means the SRT people can play around a lot more with axle ratios, and also puts seventh gear into play (for a ratio closer to the current Mercedes automatic's top speed). In top gear, a Charger SRT8 with eight-speed and the same tires and axle ratio would be capable of 258 mph... in bench racing... with no wind resistance or other limiters... at 6,200 rpm. We do not expect the top speed to be 250 mph.

We suspect that SRT is playing with axle ratios right now, trying to find the best way to maximize performance (there's only so much traction at the rear tires); gas mileage could be left to take care of itself, helped out by the new automatic's wide range. Playing with the numbers, it looks as though the extra power from the Hellcat (rumored now at 550-620 hp) will push it over 200 mph.

Indeed, with the eight speed comfortably ensconced under the hood, even the "standard" 6.4 liter SRT cars might be able to beat the legendary Charger Daytona's famed run. We suspect the question will now change from "Will Dodge break its 44-year speed record?" to "Will it be Charger or Challenger that becomes the fastest four-seat Chrysler of all time?"

(Update: forum member "AutoTechnician" wrote, "The power required to overcome aerodynamic drag increases with the cube of the speed (e.g. 20 mph requires eight times the power as 10 mph to push through the air.) It looks like it's going to require about 500 hp just push the Challenger through the air at 200 mph, using published drag and frontal area specs. Factor in mechanical losses, rolling resistance, etc... and you're easily well over 600 hp required at the crankshaft to do 200 mph Keep in mind that the 638HP ZR1 can only do 205 mph.")

The efficient ZF transmission may help SRT; an open question is whether HellCat will be in our conservative 550-620 hp range, or over 640 hp, as predicted by other outlets. The availability of a hefty overdrive in seventh gear may also help.

[Ghoste]

 

[tan top]

    

[Lord Warlock]

From what i've seen on the challengers, they tend to run into a resistance problem above 160, getting to 200 may be possible, but don't think it will be breaking any speed records.  Those that run the texas mile run tend to block off the grille area.  Gearing wise, it should have plenty of power to get it up over 200, but whether it will go much higher is what I doubt.  Think it would take a different body shape and run the hellcat motor to break records.

[Indygenerallee]

Unless they stick one of those horrendous Superbird/Daytona body kit's on the Challenger I could not see it going that fast (I wouldn't want to be driving it!) too much flat frontal area...

[pettybird]

I'll bet against the brick, too.  If journalists are having trouble with the new 662hp GT500 hitting 200, which weighs less and is smaller, then no way will that fat pig fly that fast. 

Maybe they can drop one in a Nationwide series chassis and try it that way...

[Aero426]

Unless they stick one of those horrendous Superbird/Daytona body kit's on the Challenger I could not see it going that fast (I wouldn't want to be driving it!) too much flat frontal area...

And who knows how that would do?   It's not like there is any science behind the design they came up with.   

[Indygenerallee]

And who knows how that would do?   It's not like there is any science behind the design they came up with.    smilielol

Your right! heck I think the wing would be blown off at 120 mph but at least it would stand a bit better chance at the target MPH with that nose!! 

[Brutalowner]

   It takes just north of 900rwhp to get those .35cd "bricks" to 200mph in a standing mile. It better be a spot-on run, too.
IRRC, the record right now is 207mph. His dyno sheet says 1123rwhp.
  Does Mr. Zatz know the 200 record run was a race prepped car (one seater)? I'd LOVE to see Mopars start knocking down some new records, but it will take more than a stock Hellcat. Happy to see the effort though.
 

[JB400]

It'd probably be best to leave the record setting to a car like the Viper.  But, if SRT is serious about making a Challenger a record setter, they'd have to do more like what Chevrolet (can I say that word here ) did with the ZR1 Camaro and redirect air that hits the grille area  up over the hood.  I think the effort would be better suited for the rumored Cuda, which will probably be the new Avenger.  It's supposed to be a midsize rwd. v8 car.

[Beep Beep Dave]

Wake me up when a stock Daytona Charger breaks the 200 mph barrier...

Dave

[odcics2]

200.447 mph was achieved with a 585 HP engine, according to Larry Rathgeb.
Dry sump pan was Nascar legal minimum at 5" off the track.   The 88 is slicker than a production car.

Production vs race = huge difference...       

[DAY CLONA]

200.447 mph was achieved with a 585 HP engine, according to Larry Rathgeb.
Dry sump pan was Nascar legal minimum at 5" off the track.   The 88 is slicker than a production car.

Production vs race = huge difference...       

Agreed, plus the Daytona had a CD of .29 vs the .35 the Chubbemger currently has

[Ghoste]

Who knows, maybe they're willing to keep throwing money at it until they get there?

[Mike DC]

  
Is there any agreement on what a real stock (non-NASCAR) 1969 Hemi Charger Daytona can do at the top end?  

Or if not 100% stock, then at least something under 600 hp and without the raked & cheated NASCAR bodywork?

[Indygenerallee]

I would think with a new tuned 6.4 Hemi and that 8 speed in a street built Daytona you could get to 200 mph... Heck I have been 140mph in a 95 Mustang Cobra (Yes it was screaming and it was incredibly stupid at 1 a.m. no less) and it had a few mods. But I thought I had read somewhere that around that the wing on a Daytona would collapse the quarters at 180 mph, hence the need for the race wing tubes.

[Ghoste]

The braces are in the street versions as well.

[hemigeno]

But I thought I had read somewhere that around that the wing on a Daytona would collapse the quarters at 180 mph, hence the need for the race wing tubes.

Charlie Glotzbach relayed that story to us in St. Louis one year, and he said the quarters buckled before they had put any bracing in the trunk.  This was when they were first testing the wing at track speeds.  Stock wing braces are obviously not up to the same levels as race wing tubes, but hopefully they'd keep the quarterpanel from folding up at any speeds a stock setup could attain.

[Indygenerallee]

I have the street version braces and they are way different than the race braces

[Ghoste]

Would they not accomplish the same thing?

[Indygenerallee]

No...

[hemigeno]

Would they not accomplish the same thing?

No...

I don't recall ever reading anything about speed limitations on stock wing braces.  The example quoted about quarterpanel buckling had NO bracing (stock or race) in the trunk according to Glotzbach - and he was the test car driver the day it happened.

[Indygenerallee]

I would think the street versions would cause buckling as well as the torsional force rear and downward on the wing would increase with speed. where as on the race version both tubes go up into the wing and then are bolted into the trunk, the street version with the wing being bolted to the top of the quarter and the one down brace seems as if it would be not be very structurally sound at speeds and forces over 200 mph.

[wingcar]

I would think the main difference would be that the street braces have only one trunk floor mounting location, whereas the racing version had two.  This would seem to handle the "pressure" better as it would spread out the load.

[hemigeno]

True, but with the raked characteristics of the wing stanchion (upright) and with the horizontal force from drag, the rearward brace/leg is in compression but the forward brace/leg should be in tension to one degree or another.  

BTW... I'm not an engineer, I just play one on TV - and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.  

(DC.com Administrator) Troy did some calculations once on the inverted "Clark-Y" airfoil profile of the horizontal wing section, and I think he estimated the total negative lift / downward force was somewhere around 700 pounds at 200mph... divide by two, and that's in the neighborhood of 350 pounds on each stanchion.  I honestly believe the stock wing washers and braces would hold up to that load without allowing the quarter to buckle (as long as the wing & braces were properly installed)... however your mileage & opinion may vary.

[Indygenerallee]

  Im not sure I will ever make it to 200 mph in my Daytona clone so I don't have to worry about it personally!! 

[Stevearino]

Hot Rod recently did a comparison of the Camaro, Mustang and SRT Challenger all advertised at 175 top speed. The results on the Mojave Mile were Mustang at 187,Camaro at 178, Challenger at 174. Interestingly the Challenger did that at a sticker price about $20,000.00 less than the other two. The body would not be a significant  drawback as the Nationwide cars had a similar frontal area and unrestricted would easily approach 230 mph. That is of course with a large rear deck spoiler , a much lower stance and a front splitter. I think if you put the proper tires on the SRT , lowered it and gave it even as small rear spoiler and front splitter for stability 200 would not be out of the question  on the 2 1/2 mile oval.

http://www.hotrod.com/feature_stories/1402_2014_chevy_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_dodge_challenger_srt8_vs_2014_ford_mustang_gt500/mojave_mile.html

[daytonalo]

WTF is a Hellcat engine ? WWII fighter engine ?

[JB400]

WTF is a Hellcat engine ? WWII fighter engine ?

It is a supercharged 6.2 liter hemi engine that is supposed to be in the next SRT to rival the Shelby and the ZL1 Camaro.

[odcics2]

Hot Rod recently did a comparison of the Camaro, Mustang and SRT Challenger all advertised at 175 top speed. The results on the Mojave Mile were Mustang at 187,Camaro at 178, Challenger at 174. Interestingly the Challenger did that at a sticker price about $20,000.00 less than the other two. The body would not be a significant  drawback as the Nationwide cars had a similar frontal area and unrestricted would easily approach 230 mph. That is of course with a large rear deck spoiler , a much lower stance and a front splitter. I think if you put the proper tires on the SRT , lowered it and gave it even as small rear spoiler and front splitter for stability 200 would not be out of the question  on the 2 1/2 mile oval.

http://www.hotrod.com/feature_stories/1402_2014_chevy_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_dodge_challenger_srt8_vs_2014_ford_mustang_gt500/mojave_mile.html

Nationwide cars are wind tunnel tuned.   

[Indygenerallee]

If anyone would know Steve would he works for Hendrick motorsports......

[Indygenerallee]

odcics2 PM'd me this, thought id share since he didn't want to..

...and I work for Chrysler Engineering for over 28 years...  Twocents

cheers

[Stevearino]

odcics2 PM'd me this, thought id share since he didn't want to..

...and I work for Chrysler Engineering for over 28 years...  Twocents

Wow. I don't have an engineering degree so I am  definitely out ranked there and I mean that with the utmost respect odicis2. We are surrounded by engineering talent in the sport today and I am in constant awe of what can be done with that set of skills

To give some reference on  which  my opinion was based.
Superspeedway cars of just a few years ago( prior to the COT) were wildly different from their downforce couterparts and indeed spent many hours in the wind tunnel being massaged. Today however due to the constraints of the grid template system and reverse engineering arm post race inspection the differences in the outer skin are in most places less than .070 in any direction on three axis. The dramatic difference in the drag between speedway cars and downforce cars today is generally rules generated i.e. mandated spoiler, splitter and front pan width and length. Very little can be done to change the outside skin of the car to make it more effective.
Since Superspeedway cars have run restricted motors for years and experiment by nascar was done over 20 years ago with Sterling Marlin in the Stavola Bros. Ford to see what kind of speeds the cars would run without a plate. That car was said to have easily topped 230mph at Daytona and Nascar promptly put the plate back.
I would be very interested to see if the SRT package discussed here would be able to break 200 mph but since for now Dodge is no longer in the sport I wonder how that could be arranged. Would definitely be cool to see happen.

[cdr]

odcics2 PM'd me this, thought id share since he didn't want to..

...and I work for Chrysler Engineering for over 28 years...  Twocents

Wow. I don't have an engineering degree so I am  definitely out ranked there and I mean that with the utmost respect odicis2. We are surrounded by engineering talent in the sport today and I am in constant awe of what can be done with that set of skills

To give some reference on  which  my opinion was based.
Superspeedway cars of just a few years ago( prior to the COT) were wildly different from their downforce couterparts and indeed spent many hours in the wind tunnel being massaged. Today however due to the constraints of the grid template system and reverse engineering arm post race inspection the differences in the outer skin are in most places less than .070 in any direction on three axis. The dramatic difference in the drag between speedway cars and downforce cars today is generally rules generated i.e. mandated spoiler, splitter and front pan width and length. Very little can be done to change the outside skin of the car to make it more effective.
Since Superspeedway cars have run restricted motors for years and experiment by nascar was done over 20 years ago with Sterling Marlin in the Stavola Bros. Ford to see what kind of speeds the cars would run without a plate. That car was said to have easily topped 230mph at Daytona and Nascar promptly put the plate back.
I would be very interested to see if the SRT package discussed here would be able to break 200 mph but since for now Dodge is no longer in the sport I wonder how that could be arranged. Would definitely be cool to see happen.

thanx for that info steve.

[odcics2]

odcics2 PM'd me this, thought id share since he didn't want to..

...and I work for Chrysler Engineering for over 28 years...  Twocents

cheers

Guess the cat's out of the bag now.  I thought a "PM" (Private Message) was just that.      

For the record, I'm not an engineer, but a technician at CTC. I have fuel, exhaust and cooling system experience.
Been in chassis for many years.  Prior to the Pentastar, worked at AMC for 6 years in emissions, adv. engineering and competitive tear down.
I have been lucky enough to know and work with most of the guys that worked in the wing car program on a personal basis.  

Oh well, back to work on the 2016 models...  

[Ghoste]

2016, I thought you worked further out than that?

[odcics2]

2016, I thought you worked further out than that?

Hard parts, not ideas!!