70 charger starting and electrical issues

[Charger_70]

I bout dont know were to start but ill try. Ive replaced starter, coil, ballist resistor, ignition module, distributor cap, rotor button, spark plugs, fuel pump , fuel lines, and  heat wrap around fuel lines. Im not for sure if the car came out like this but it is a push button start the button is located inside ashtray so to start it i have to turn the key over and push the button and it will crank. It takes a lil bit but it will start but only run for about 5 min then dies. There are 2 wires under dash if i put them together the car will start but i have to let them go cause it gets so hot they start to melt also when there connected my lights work headlights, taillights.. ect.. and car starts but if there not connected the car wont start nothing works. I can start the car and it run for bout 5 min then it dies and then it wont start back I have to wait bout an hr then it will start again ... Sometimes when it wont start back when i release the wires i can hear it turn over a lil bit . I can also tell a change in idle when wires are together and when there not. If the car starts i can release wires and it will run but that the only way it will start. I also noticed the car smokes around valve covers and exhaust not sure if its a leak or just burning old oil. I checked around plugs and its real oily. I dont know were to start or what is affecting what... Any ideas??

[b5blue]

Valve cover leaking oil, timing off-not enough advance? What engine? Plug wires new? Start/run are 2 different wires for ignition, how is that wired? Nothing should run and get so hot the wires smoke, is your battery 100% good condition and fully charged before starting?
Pics of what you have going on?

[crj1968]

I think you've got a short in your wiring harness. Mine was doing something similar and it was the 12V to the alternator was shorting to another wire.
All started when my electric choke wire melted when it touched my air cleaner.  

unravel the whole wiring harness and have a look...or better yet replace it.  Sounds like those wires to the button are probably going to your starter solenoid, and the others you "touch together" putting 24V to the coil. (in place of your ignition switch)

[crj1968]

When you say it wont start for about an hour later, possibly because your battery has recovered from being totally drained from a short.

[Charger_70]

Ill try to put up some pics later... I started yesterday checking my wiring harnes the wires honestly looked new when i peeled tape back. I can tell someone has done work to it before i got it. Motor is a 440 has a electric choke carb. The 2 wire i put together to get it to start are 2 thick red coated wires. I peeled tape back and saw this 2 wires have been spliced together with other wires to mak them longer. One of them is spliced to a black wire and the other is spliced but to an red coated wire. When i got it these 2 wires had a metal circle piece on the end of it and were bolted together on a vault gauge. There are 3 gauges bolted under dash vault, oil pressure, and temp. The gauge has 2 post in back and these 2 wires were both bolted to the positive side of gauge. I took the red 1 to positive and the red that was spliced into a black 1 i put it on negative but the red that was spliced into a black 1 is the 1 getting hot on me. I dont understand the push button to gt it to start??? I mean everything looks to be there that it would start by turning the key it has an electric distributor on it. Also i can tell every time if its gonna start or not if it has a real fast crank when trying to start it will not start but if it starts out with a slow crank it starts everytime

[Pete in NH]

For sure, the car did not leave the factory with a push button for starting in the ash tray. It sounds like the wiring in the car has been modified and someone may not have really known what they were doing. From your description I would not leave the battery in the car connected unattended. I suspect the wiring is in poor condition as most 40 year old wiring is and may have been modified and jury rigged to the point it is not safe. The bulk head connectors in the car can often lead to all kinds on intermittent problems. If you can post some pictures of the wiring so you can get some advice on what you need to do but, it sounds like some new wiring harnesses might be in order.

As mentioned no wiring should get so hot it smokes. Don't risk loosing your car to a fire, get the wiring back into a safe condition.

[Pete in NH]

It sounds like someone has bypassed the ammeter in the car which is a common modification. To bypass the ammeter the red and black wire that went to the ammeter terminals are connected together. The black wire is from the alternator output and the red wire is from the battery through a fusible link. A fusible link is a piece of wire that is supposed to melt open like a fuse if overloaded.

[Charger_70]

what i need to do?

[crj1968]

Also i can tell every time if its gonna start or not if it has a real fast crank when trying to start it will not start but if it starts out with a slow crank it starts everytime

That is strange for sure. I don't even know what to think of that. 

I dont know what you should do except maybe get wiring diagram and go through it wire by wire.  Eliminate things you dont need beyond ignition and charging system.
  And yep that bypassing the ammeter is pretty common, I've done it, but sounds like someone before you was chasing this gremlin and never found it.

[Dino]

As was said, your wiring has been modified by someone who didn't know how to.  That's a problem. 

Here's what you should do:  Remove the battery, if it's a good one then stick it on a trickle charger and leave it there.  Never, ever leave it in place when you have electrical issues like that and please don't mate wires that get hot.  The car can burn to a crisp way faster than you might think.  Let's not find out how fast.    

Remove the instrument cluster and straighten out the wiring behind it, meaning lay all the wires with bulb sockets nice and straight, same with connectors that came off the cluster.  This is just to make it easier to see what is wrong in there.  Take pictures of all the wiring.

Do the same with the push button, remove it or at least have pictures of how and where the wires run. 

Also take pictures of the bulkhead connector on the fire wall and pics of the fuse box.  Remove the screw so you can pull the fuse box out to take pics of the back.

Remove the aftermarket gauges but leave them hooked up so we can see which wires they tapped.

Post the pics here or if they are too big post a link to your photobucket or other account.

We'll look it over to see what needs to be done.

Also let us know if you want the electrical system as it left the factory or if you want any upgrades.

[Charger_70]

Ok i get some pics asap.. The wires only start getting warm when key is turned on but when car is running they get HOT but they get hot if the key is turned over and iturn my headlights on but not as hot if car is running... Im up for all kinds of upgrades... I dont understand the push button start though if it was made like that or why anyone would put it in there.

[Cooter]

FSM is your friend.

[Dino]

I've put several modern upgrades in my car but never felt the urge to install a push button start.  Never quite understood that or the credit card looking keys.

If you're looking to add things like a modern sound system and/or upgrade the lights and such, not a ton needs to be done to the wiring.  But there is a way to make the electrical system rock solid by changing the charging system a bit.  The main purchase would be a new alternator.

Let's start by deciphering the current setup and take it from there.

Start thinking on what electrical things you want in the car when done so we can add it to the schematic.

Do get the FSW as said, I have the CD version which makes it real easy to look things up.  All the wiring schematics you need are also in there.

[Charger_70]

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab322/scar_face_22/048.jpg

[Charger_70]

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab322/scar_face_22/047.jpg

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[70 sublime]

http://1970chargerregistry.com/techandspec.html

General Specs     Group Packages     Wiring Diagrams

Factory Markings     Frame Specs


try to look at this wiring diagram at the bottom of page in link

[Charger_70]

The guy also had a cd player hooked up but I unhooked it.... I just don't see how that these wires have to be together for everything to work as soon as there apart the lights and all quit

[70 sublime]

Your red wire sounds like the main power wire in the harness under the dash and needs to be hooked up to have any power

If you look at the wiring diagram in the link you should be able to follow which wire you are working with

[Charger_70]

Not sure if this could be a problem or a answer to 1 ... but i let my battery charge over night. I went out today it cranked a lil slow but fired right up with wires connected while running the wires never got hot not even warm but after 5 to 10 min car dies and wouldnt start back which it does this everytime and bout an hr or more it will start up again and that is when my wires get hot is this a sign of bad alternator? Could the battery be drained by the car running and it die and then it take a few hrs to charge enough to start again?

[Pete in NH]

We're going to need to know a lot more about what the whole electrical system is in order to understand the problems and help. Can you post a few more pictures of what is under the hood. Some pictures of the alternator, bulk head connectors where the engine wiring enters the firewall would be helpful. The under dash wiring looks like a mess and someone has clearly been in there. Also, a 70 left the factory with a point type ignition system but many were converted to some form of electronic ignition. Which does your car have? I suspect from your description of what is happening that the basic alternator/ battery charging circuit is not working correctly. Did you just buy this car or have you owned it for a while? How do you feel about working on electrical systems? These cars are very basic but this one may need quite a bit of work to set it right.

[Charger_70]

The car does have an electronic distributor ... I will try to get more pics this evening . Ive been working on brakes a lil today.

[Charger_70]

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab322/scar_face_22/080.jpg

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http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab322/scar_face_22/080-1.jpg

[Charger_70]

The wires once I removed some of the tape look really good. Looks kinda a messy I just haven't re taped them I don't see any naked places or the apprearence of any broken wires in the dash. It looks like around firewall like someone has done something mabey someone can tell from pics

[b5blue]

I can't gauge how good you are at electrics but it's standard procedure to unplug all bulkhead connections and clean/inspect everything VERY thoroughly on a 40 plus year old car. Clean all grounds and be certain they are all perfect. Remove the Alt. and have it tested.
If you do not have a Factory Service Manual get one! 

[fy469rtse]

Yep , BIG warning, disconnect battery and remove , those big wires your holding together are from the back of amp gauge, a lot of us by pass that and connect these together, but must be insulated from touching any thing metal.
You have a short in your wiring , I'm betting that it started in the ignition circuit based on the hack job previous owner has done ,
It could be as simple as a bad coil , but your wiring doesn't look in good condition , I would pull the cluster and post more photos, do a lot of reading on here in electrical threads,
The fuse able links are missing and evidence that they kept blowing and previous owner has just linked where they should be,
Keep reading and reading, you will understand better as you go along, think new harnesses , first for under bonnet, unless your very good at remaking your own,
That bulk head connector is a factory bad point and lots of fixes , modification on here for fixes
Get the factory work shop manual and read until it starts to make sense,  if your not good with electrical s , get help from a friend who really knows what there doing , but easiest way complete new wiring harnesses ,dash , engine bay