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Author Topic: Baker #88 Daytona when it was a Charger 500 photos  (Read 4837 times)
wingcar builder
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« on: November 05, 2015, 11:41:40 AM »

Doing some research about 3 AM stumbles across a great batch of photos and a photographer just happened to snap a good photo of inside the car as it was going thru tech...........looks like a different floor back then.





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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 11:44:02 AM »

Nice pics!   2thumbs
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odcics2
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 02:24:48 PM »

Not many early pics exist...  especially in color.



* DC-93 initial shake down run at Daytona Nov. 1968 buddy baker driving.jpg (88.33 KB, 578x407 - viewed 1184 times.)

* DC-93 dodge charger 500 99 at 1969 daytona 500.jpg (64.66 KB, 670x405 - viewed 1426 times.)
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odcics2
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 02:36:06 PM »

Doing some research about 3 AM stumbles across a great batch of photos and a photographer just happened to snap a good photo of inside the car as it was going thru tech...........looks like a different floor back then.







DC-93 had at least 3 different axle coolers in it. Rear metal over the gear was updated at some point, after it was first out of Nichels shop in Nov.1968.  Rest of floor is the same...  
A lot of things were tried on this car first.  If it worked, the info or item got passed out to the race teams.
Stuff like electronic ignition, PITA bars, body to chassis rake, etc.
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wingcar builder
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 07:11:35 PM »

forgot to add. Eric della Faille photographer.

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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 07:49:09 PM »

 Shocked   awesome pictures  , never seen these before !!   thanks for sharing  ,

  cheers cheers popcrn
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 11:28:07 AM »

Very cool pics!  Thanks for finding them at 3 am!?!  Shocked   icon_smile_big
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1968 Charger - 1970 Cuda - 1969 Sport Satellite Convertible
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 01:05:59 PM »

Very cool pics!  Thanks for finding them at 3 am!?!  Shocked   icon_smile_big


Yep Racing Porn is the best! Lol!  Wink  amazing what you can find if you look hard.

here is a cool one from a friend. Joe Machado owns the RH Wing Stabilizer from this shunt.



and a couple good ones found in my late night searches.

Michigan Twin



Atlanta Lorenzen Daytona.



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Highbanked Hauler
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 04:40:12 PM »

 Anyone know the width of those tires ? I'd guess 10 inches, they don't look as wide as today's tires.
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Aero426
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 05:14:42 PM »

Anyone know the width of those tires ? I'd guess 10 inches, they don't look as wide as today's tires.

A little less than 10" with a section width of about 12".     Hoosier makes a HSC (historic stock car) tire that is wider.   Better fit for 80's and up cars. 
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odcics2
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 04:12:17 AM »

Anyone know the width of those tires ? I'd guess 10 inches, they don't look as wide as today's tires.

A little less than 10" with a section width of about 12".     Hoosier makes a HSC (historic stock car) tire that is wider.   Better fit for 80's and up cars. 

I measured 10 to 10.5" tread width.  All are marked '8.00-8.20 15"   
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2015, 07:00:07 AM »

Kinda neat seeing the vent windows and side windows in the race cars! Twocents
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2015, 08:18:55 PM »

Anyone know the width of those tires ? I'd guess 10 inches, they don't look as wide as today's tires.

The wheels on my Daytona are the Bart Grand National rims with the slots ( first of their kind if memory serves me well ). Because they can't be made with anything bigger then a 4" back-spacing, the sidewalls of my 255/60R/15's will rub the fender... More caution is taken now when I turn for the tire will rub the very top of the wheel lip molding and that isn't good...... My fenders have never been flared ( and never will )...........
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Troy
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2015, 08:25:58 PM »

 2thumbs


* DC-93.jpg (49.25 KB, 500x386 - viewed 854 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 06:50:33 AM »

Anyone know the width of those tires ? I'd guess 10 inches, they don't look as wide as today's tires.

The wheels on my Daytona are the Bart Grand National rims with the slots ( first of their kind if memory serves me well ). Because they can't be made with anything bigger then a 4" back-spacing, the sidewalls of my 255/60R/15's will rub the fender... More caution is taken now when I turn for the tire will rub the very top of the wheel lip molding and that isn't good...... My fenders have never been flared ( and never will )...........


 Dave Duncan'e Daytona that Jim Malloy and Bob Harkey drove was a non Nichels chassis and the front fenders weren't really flared either .kinda looks like a 4X4



same with Buddy Arrington's.

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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 08:53:58 AM »

BART can make them 15 x 8 or 15 x 10.    Troy, I assume yours are 15 x 8.
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2015, 03:04:47 PM »

Anyone know the width of those tires ? I'd guess 10 inches, they don't look as wide as today's tires.

The wheels on my Daytona are the Bart Grand National rims with the slots ( first of their kind if memory serves me well ). Because they can't be made with anything bigger then a 4" back-spacing, the sidewalls of my 255/60R/15's will rub the fender... More caution is taken now when I turn for the tire will rub the very top of the wheel lip molding and that isn't good...... My fenders have never been flared ( and never will )...........


 Dave Duncan'e Daytona that Jim Malloy and Bob Harkey drove was a non Nichels chassis and the front fenders weren't really flared either .kinda looks like a 4X4



same with Buddy Arrington's.



The #26 has a stock dashboard!  Even has the pad on it and defroster vents!  99% sure a wet sump set up, too.
Note the flat rear window.  Simple piece of plexiglass slapped into the hole, not a "real" race rear window.

I'd say the Arrington ride is a Nichels by the dash and a wet sump, by the height of the front end.  It needed the front fenders cut out more.  Twocents

Take a peek at the #6 Bettenhausen Daytona - a known short track car conversion. Same deal, not a lot of the fender was opened up.
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2015, 03:37:26 PM »

BART can make them 15 x 8 or 15 x 10.    Troy, I assume yours are 15 x 8.

Yes, they are 15x8 with a 4" backspacing.. That is the deepest they can go with the 71-up slotted Grand National wheels I have on the Daytona now. If I wanted to go to a more era-correct wheel like in the pictures ( closely resembles a Ford steelie ), I would have to go to their trailer wheel that looks a lot like the '70-earlier wheel. I would go 15x8 with a 4.25" back spacing or a 15x9/10 with a 4.5" back spacing... Gotta have full wheel wells on a Daytona...  If anything is going beyond 15x8's on the slotted version, one had better be careful with turning, the front tires will rub the wheel lip moulding and that's not good....
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2015, 06:02:11 PM »

Anyone know the width of those tires ? I'd guess 10 inches, they don't look as wide as today's tires.

The wheels on my Daytona are the Bart Grand National rims with the slots ( first of their kind if memory serves me well ). Because they can't be made with anything bigger then a 4" back-spacing, the sidewalls of my 255/60R/15's will rub the fender... More caution is taken now when I turn for the tire will rub the very top of the wheel lip molding and that isn't good...... My fenders have never been flared ( and never will )...........


 Dave Duncan'e Daytona that Jim Malloy and Bob Harkey drove was a non Nichels chassis and the front fenders weren't really flared either .kinda looks like a 4X4



same with Buddy Arrington's.



The #26 has a stock dashboard!  Even has the pad on it and defroster vents!  99% sure a wet sump set up, too.
Note the flat rear window.  Simple piece of plexiglass slapped into the hole, not a "real" race rear window.

I'd say the Arrington ride is a Nichels by the dash and a wet sump, by the height of the front end.  It needed the front fenders cut out more.  Twocents

Take a peek at the #6 Bettenhausen Daytona - a known short track car conversion. Same deal, not a lot of the fender was opened up.


Also, the hood louvers look like it's an altered 68'-69' Charger hood. not a Daytona or even a 70' hood. but, as stated it is probably started out as a stock C500. only thing that exists of this car today is the decklid.
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 06:30:43 PM »

Was there any uniformity between cars as to the sides the exhaust exited on?  These all look like one on each side but I thought some had a double on the passenger side. shruggy
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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2015, 10:00:06 PM »

I've heard different reasons for it. one was kill some of the heat and engine noise under driver and less chance of pit fires from splashing fuel. but there could be other advantages i'm sure.
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2015, 10:58:05 AM »


 Dave Duncan'e Daytona that Jim Malloy and Bob Harkey drove was a non Nichels chassis and the front fenders weren't really flared either .kinda looks like a 4X4



The #26 has a stock dashboard!  Even has the pad on it and defroster vents!  99% sure a wet sump set up, too.
Note the flat rear window.  Simple piece of plexiglass slapped into the hole, not a "real" race rear window.



Also, the hood louvers look like it's an altered 68'-69' Charger hood. not a Daytona or even a 70' hood. but, as stated it is probably started out as a stock C500. only thing that exists of this car today is the decklid.

The #26's stock dash pad is from a '68, as evidenced by the center "peak" profile that was '68-only... which might reduce the likelihood this chassis started out as a C500.  But then again... I've always heard that most oval track racecars started life out as a body-in-white which AFAIK wouldn't have had a dash and certainly not interior trim like dashpads.  Could some of the independents have bought a wrecked street chassis on the cheap and built up from there?

I remember the story of Cotton Owens taking a stripped HemiCharger(C500?) and turning it into a race chassis, so I suppose it could have happened with the big-name teams too.  Seems like this wouldn't be their first choice since a lot of time would be spent stripping out sound deadener, etc.

 shruggy





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Mike DC (formerly miked)
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2015, 11:32:17 AM »


I bet that car started life as an actual production '68 Charger. 


Looking at where the wheel center points are located, in relation to the height of the rockers, that could be a street unibody under there with minor mods.

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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2015, 01:47:44 PM »


I bet that car started life as an actual production '68 Charger. 


Looking at where the wheel center points are located, in relation to the height of the rockers, that could be a street unibody under there with minor mods.




Hard to say. Dave Duncan isn't with us anymore I believe and I talked to Bob Harkey couple years ago and he said he only drove it twice he could remember. but it was turned into a 70 and Ralph Liquiri drove it. Not it still has the rear window plug. USAC allowed it.

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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2015, 02:45:51 PM »


I bet that car started life as an actual production '68 Charger.  


Looking at where the wheel center points are located, in relation to the height of the rockers, that could be a street unibody under there with minor mods.



Hard to say. Dave Duncan isn't with us anymore I believe and I talked to Bob Harkey couple years ago and he said he only drove it twice he could remember. but it was turned into a 70 and Ralph Liquiri drove it. Not it still has the rear window plug. USAC allowed it.




Dashboard looks different than the #26, to me.

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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2015, 02:57:02 PM »


 Dave Duncan'e Daytona that Jim Malloy and Bob Harkey drove was a non Nichels chassis and the front fenders weren't really flared either .kinda looks like a 4X4



The #26 has a stock dashboard!  Even has the pad on it and defroster vents!  99% sure a wet sump set up, too.
Note the flat rear window.  Simple piece of plexiglass slapped into the hole, not a "real" race rear window.



Also, the hood louvers look like it's an altered 68'-69' Charger hood. not a Daytona or even a 70' hood. but, as stated it is probably started out as a stock C500. only thing that exists of this car today is the decklid.

The #26's stock dash pad is from a '68, as evidenced by the center "peak" profile that was '68-only... which might reduce the likelihood this chassis started out as a C500.  But then again... I've always heard that most oval track racecars started life out as a body-in-white which AFAIK wouldn't have had a dash and certainly not interior trim like dashpads.  Could some of the independents have bought a wrecked street chassis on the cheap and built up from there?

I remember the story of Cotton Owens taking a stripped HemiCharger(C500?) and turning it into a race chassis, so I suppose it could have happened with the big-name teams too.  Seems like this wouldn't be their first choice since a lot of time would be spent stripping out sound deadener, etc.

 shruggy



Again, another Cotton Owens "fabrication"!   smilielol

The real story is that there were 3 Charger 500s sent to Hot Rod magazine in the summer of 1968. One was stolen and recovered, all stripped. It was sent to Nichels shop and built into 'DC-93', later known as "88".   There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

This story was documented by the actual Chrysler guys involved back in 1995, in the Supercars book.  This was a good 10 years before Cotton came up with his version of that story...   I'll never understand why he had to lie about so many things and taint his career.   shruggy



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« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2015, 03:50:21 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

Of course that's true, it goes without saying.  But, as you say, your car's history as DC-93 also includes a brief stint as a streetcar before being (extensively) modified into an oval track racecar.  Hard to get a better example than the #88.   2thumbs

My question wasn't about the accuracy of Cotton Owens' story (and I certainly didn't mean to strike a nerve), but the frequency with which any race team used a street chassis as a starting point. 






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Mike DC (formerly miked)
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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2015, 07:08:43 PM »

Quote
Hard to say. Dave Duncan isn't with us anymore I believe and I talked to Bob Harkey couple years ago and he said he only drove it twice he could remember. but it was turned into a 70 and Ralph Liquiri drove it. Not it still has the rear window plug. USAC allowed it.

Different dash for sure.

Different 1970 fenders, but the wheelwell reshaping looks like the work of the same hands.  The hood pins are several inches back from the leading edge on both cars.  It's different hoods but the pins appear to be in the same places.  The windshield retaining tabs are hard to tell but they could be the same.  The two shots are facing opposite ways.  

The main hoop of the rollcage looks like it might be farther back on the "4x4" pic.  Not sure though. The angles of the pics might be doing that.  



If they are the same car then it might have gotten some additional chassis mods to lower it down by the time of the '70 pic.  Nobody would have run a Daytona so high up (as the 4x4 pic) if they had any more room to lower it at the time.  

On the other hand the Daytona pic might be showing the car in mid-turn (look at the driver and the front wheel).  The body would be leaning to the right a bit, raising the left side of the body facing us.  

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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2015, 07:18:18 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

Of course that's true, it goes without saying.  But, as you say, your car's history as DC-93 also includes a brief stint as a streetcar before being (extensively) modified into an oval track racecar.  Hard to get a better example than the #88.   2thumbs

My question wasn't about the accuracy of Cotton Owens' story (and I certainly didn't mean to strike a nerve), but the frequency with which any race team used a street chassis as a starting point. 


To the point, I'd say very infrequently were rolling, production street cars directly made into circle track racers.   
Keep in mind that the 64 to 67 Nichels cars sat higher.   1968 was a big year for many modifications to get the cars lower.
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« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2015, 12:15:59 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

Of course that's true, it goes without saying.  But, as you say, your car's history as DC-93 also includes a brief stint as a streetcar before being (extensively) modified into an oval track racecar.  Hard to get a better example than the #88.   2thumbs

My question wasn't about the accuracy of Cotton Owens' story (and I certainly didn't mean to strike a nerve), but the frequency with which any race team used a street chassis as a starting point. 


To the point, I'd say very infrequently were rolling, production street cars directly made into circle track racers.   
Keep in mind that the 64 to 67 Nichels cars sat higher.   1968 was a big year for many modifications to get the cars lower.

There were a few ex street cars tho. as far as wings, This is the only one that I know 110% was a street car. John said he was told to go to the dealer, they had a Superbird he was to pick up and he was giving some Chrysler support and some help from Nichels. he said Ray sent him out some Blueprints, jigs and some parts. John built the car himself. the other one is the Kevin Terris car that Gary Sigman built. Gary passed few years ago and when I talked to his wife she couldn't remember where the Superbird came from 100% as to how much Gary built on the car. Not much support went to the West Coast back then. Ray Elder and Jack McCoy went to Nichels directly tho.



John didn't even have many Nichels rims either. He said he used Lincoln rims on the Superbird few times and when it was a conventional road runner.




Note the dash in Terris road runner. and I believe the Superbird did actually have a real vinyl top. so it could've been a street car.


Note the Vinyl top seams on roof.......



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« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2015, 07:41:16 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

Of course that's true, it goes without saying.  But, as you say, your car's history as DC-93 also includes a brief stint as a streetcar before being (extensively) modified into an oval track racecar.  Hard to get a better example than the #88.   2thumbs

My question wasn't about the accuracy of Cotton Owens' story (and I certainly didn't mean to strike a nerve), but the frequency with which any race team used a street chassis as a starting point. 


To the point, I'd say very infrequently were rolling, production street cars directly made into circle track racers.   
Keep in mind that the 64 to 67 Nichels cars sat higher.   1968 was a big year for many modifications to get the cars lower.

There were a few ex street cars tho. as far as wings, This is the only one that I know 110% was a street car. John said he was told to go to the dealer, they had a Superbird he was to pick up and he was giving some Chrysler support and some help from Nichels. he said Ray sent him out some Blueprints, jigs and some parts. John built the car himself. the other one is the Kevin Terris car that Gary Sigman built. Gary passed few years ago and when I talked to his wife she couldn't remember where the Superbird came from 100% as to how much Gary built on the car. Not much support went to the West Coast back then. Ray Elder and Jack McCoy went to Nichels directly tho.



John didn't even have many Nichels rims either. He said he used Lincoln rims on the Superbird few times and when it was a conventional road runner.




Note the dash in Terris road runner. and I believe the Superbird did actually have a real vinyl top. so it could've been a street car.


Note the Vinyl top seams on roof.......





Great pics. thanks...
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« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2015, 02:47:24 AM »

Dick Bown's 02 Uber Loging Superbird was a street car.   
The Gary Sigman Superbird driven by Kevin Terris was not a street Superbird.    On a side note.    Gary used to live across the street from us in Harbor City.
 
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« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2015, 06:55:52 AM »

Dick Bown's 02 Uber Loging Superbird was a street car.   
The Gary Sigman Superbird driven by Kevin Terris was not a street Superbird.    On a side note.    Gary used to live across the street from us in Harbor City.
 

Thanks, I messaged Dick about the car and he never got back to me. I always kinda suspected it was a West Coast built car also. and like I said Nadine Sigman couldn't remember. nor has any photos of it she could find. it's funny when you look in photos at Riverside how many photographer were in the background taking pics but yet no photos exist of Terris' Superbird. very rare care to find.




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« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2015, 11:52:08 PM »

Dick is on Facebook.   Talked to him a few times.  Radke bought the front end off his bird.  The nose made it's way back on to a Superbird in Denver.
Dad took a few shots of Kevin's Runner over the years. Here is one.     I have some with me in them as a little tot somewhere.


* 10957538_10205804135243021_367251575_n.jpg (23.57 KB, 426x296 - viewed 572 times.)

* Boracar-vi chuck bown.jpg (50.95 KB, 676x386 - viewed 588 times.)
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2015, 12:11:41 PM »

Dick is on Facebook.   Talked to him a few times.  Radke bought the front end off his bird.  The nose made it's way back on to a Superbird in Denver.
Dad took a few shots of Kevin's Runner over the years. Here is one.     I have some with me in them as a little tot somewhere.

Yeah me and Dick are friends on fb also. here is another shot with the nose removed.

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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2015, 12:26:35 PM »

Not to get to far off subject, but my friend Carl worked / retired from Rose auto wrecking and did photography work to. Funny how USAC had their lax rules on bodies but this photo Carl took of Jack's Charger at Sonoma 1969 is quite interesting. winner wins a cookie who spots it first!!  Doug S. can't play tho. Wink





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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2015, 12:31:13 PM »

Charger 500 grille but recessed rear window?
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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2015, 01:15:49 PM »

  
Is that how USAC weighed the cars at the time?  No corner or side figures?  

Richard Petty would never have lost a race.    
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2015, 02:31:17 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.








this is a great picture
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« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2020, 12:35:21 PM »

Hey All,
This just surfaced - I asked Doug about it.  I think he is correct that it is the wing off the #32 car.


* Screenshot_20200807-133311_Gallery.jpg (157.2 KB, 615x305 - viewed 137 times.)
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« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2020, 08:39:31 PM »

worth mentioning is mr dempsey is no longer with us, having passed away not long ago

the man was a wealth of information and will be missed
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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