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Author Topic: Baker #88 Daytona when it was a Charger 500 photos  (Read 4854 times)
odcics2
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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2015, 02:57:02 PM »


 Dave Duncan'e Daytona that Jim Malloy and Bob Harkey drove was a non Nichels chassis and the front fenders weren't really flared either .kinda looks like a 4X4



The #26 has a stock dashboard!  Even has the pad on it and defroster vents!  99% sure a wet sump set up, too.
Note the flat rear window.  Simple piece of plexiglass slapped into the hole, not a "real" race rear window.



Also, the hood louvers look like it's an altered 68'-69' Charger hood. not a Daytona or even a 70' hood. but, as stated it is probably started out as a stock C500. only thing that exists of this car today is the decklid.

The #26's stock dash pad is from a '68, as evidenced by the center "peak" profile that was '68-only... which might reduce the likelihood this chassis started out as a C500.  But then again... I've always heard that most oval track racecars started life out as a body-in-white which AFAIK wouldn't have had a dash and certainly not interior trim like dashpads.  Could some of the independents have bought a wrecked street chassis on the cheap and built up from there?

I remember the story of Cotton Owens taking a stripped HemiCharger(C500?) and turning it into a race chassis, so I suppose it could have happened with the big-name teams too.  Seems like this wouldn't be their first choice since a lot of time would be spent stripping out sound deadener, etc.

 shruggy



Again, another Cotton Owens "fabrication"!   smilielol

The real story is that there were 3 Charger 500s sent to Hot Rod magazine in the summer of 1968. One was stolen and recovered, all stripped. It was sent to Nichels shop and built into 'DC-93', later known as "88".   There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

This story was documented by the actual Chrysler guys involved back in 1995, in the Supercars book.  This was a good 10 years before Cotton came up with his version of that story...   I'll never understand why he had to lie about so many things and taint his career.   shruggy



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hemigeno
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« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2015, 03:50:21 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

Of course that's true, it goes without saying.  But, as you say, your car's history as DC-93 also includes a brief stint as a streetcar before being (extensively) modified into an oval track racecar.  Hard to get a better example than the #88.   2thumbs

My question wasn't about the accuracy of Cotton Owens' story (and I certainly didn't mean to strike a nerve), but the frequency with which any race team used a street chassis as a starting point. 






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Mike DC (formerly miked)
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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2015, 07:08:43 PM »

Quote
Hard to say. Dave Duncan isn't with us anymore I believe and I talked to Bob Harkey couple years ago and he said he only drove it twice he could remember. but it was turned into a 70 and Ralph Liquiri drove it. Not it still has the rear window plug. USAC allowed it.

Different dash for sure.

Different 1970 fenders, but the wheelwell reshaping looks like the work of the same hands.  The hood pins are several inches back from the leading edge on both cars.  It's different hoods but the pins appear to be in the same places.  The windshield retaining tabs are hard to tell but they could be the same.  The two shots are facing opposite ways.  

The main hoop of the rollcage looks like it might be farther back on the "4x4" pic.  Not sure though. The angles of the pics might be doing that.  



If they are the same car then it might have gotten some additional chassis mods to lower it down by the time of the '70 pic.  Nobody would have run a Daytona so high up (as the 4x4 pic) if they had any more room to lower it at the time.  

On the other hand the Daytona pic might be showing the car in mid-turn (look at the driver and the front wheel).  The body would be leaning to the right a bit, raising the left side of the body facing us.  

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odcics2
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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2015, 07:18:18 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

Of course that's true, it goes without saying.  But, as you say, your car's history as DC-93 also includes a brief stint as a streetcar before being (extensively) modified into an oval track racecar.  Hard to get a better example than the #88.   2thumbs

My question wasn't about the accuracy of Cotton Owens' story (and I certainly didn't mean to strike a nerve), but the frequency with which any race team used a street chassis as a starting point. 


To the point, I'd say very infrequently were rolling, production street cars directly made into circle track racers.   
Keep in mind that the 64 to 67 Nichels cars sat higher.   1968 was a big year for many modifications to get the cars lower.
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wingcar builder
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« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2015, 12:15:59 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

Of course that's true, it goes without saying.  But, as you say, your car's history as DC-93 also includes a brief stint as a streetcar before being (extensively) modified into an oval track racecar.  Hard to get a better example than the #88.   2thumbs

My question wasn't about the accuracy of Cotton Owens' story (and I certainly didn't mean to strike a nerve), but the frequency with which any race team used a street chassis as a starting point. 


To the point, I'd say very infrequently were rolling, production street cars directly made into circle track racers.   
Keep in mind that the 64 to 67 Nichels cars sat higher.   1968 was a big year for many modifications to get the cars lower.

There were a few ex street cars tho. as far as wings, This is the only one that I know 110% was a street car. John said he was told to go to the dealer, they had a Superbird he was to pick up and he was giving some Chrysler support and some help from Nichels. he said Ray sent him out some Blueprints, jigs and some parts. John built the car himself. the other one is the Kevin Terris car that Gary Sigman built. Gary passed few years ago and when I talked to his wife she couldn't remember where the Superbird came from 100% as to how much Gary built on the car. Not much support went to the West Coast back then. Ray Elder and Jack McCoy went to Nichels directly tho.



John didn't even have many Nichels rims either. He said he used Lincoln rims on the Superbird few times and when it was a conventional road runner.




Note the dash in Terris road runner. and I believe the Superbird did actually have a real vinyl top. so it could've been a street car.


Note the Vinyl top seams on roof.......



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odcics2
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« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2015, 07:41:16 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.

Of course that's true, it goes without saying.  But, as you say, your car's history as DC-93 also includes a brief stint as a streetcar before being (extensively) modified into an oval track racecar.  Hard to get a better example than the #88.   2thumbs

My question wasn't about the accuracy of Cotton Owens' story (and I certainly didn't mean to strike a nerve), but the frequency with which any race team used a street chassis as a starting point. 


To the point, I'd say very infrequently were rolling, production street cars directly made into circle track racers.   
Keep in mind that the 64 to 67 Nichels cars sat higher.   1968 was a big year for many modifications to get the cars lower.

There were a few ex street cars tho. as far as wings, This is the only one that I know 110% was a street car. John said he was told to go to the dealer, they had a Superbird he was to pick up and he was giving some Chrysler support and some help from Nichels. he said Ray sent him out some Blueprints, jigs and some parts. John built the car himself. the other one is the Kevin Terris car that Gary Sigman built. Gary passed few years ago and when I talked to his wife she couldn't remember where the Superbird came from 100% as to how much Gary built on the car. Not much support went to the West Coast back then. Ray Elder and Jack McCoy went to Nichels directly tho.



John didn't even have many Nichels rims either. He said he used Lincoln rims on the Superbird few times and when it was a conventional road runner.




Note the dash in Terris road runner. and I believe the Superbird did actually have a real vinyl top. so it could've been a street car.


Note the Vinyl top seams on roof.......





Great pics. thanks...
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C5X DAYTONA
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« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2015, 02:47:24 AM »

Dick Bown's 02 Uber Loging Superbird was a street car.   
The Gary Sigman Superbird driven by Kevin Terris was not a street Superbird.    On a side note.    Gary used to live across the street from us in Harbor City.
 
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wingcar builder
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« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2015, 06:55:52 AM »

Dick Bown's 02 Uber Loging Superbird was a street car.   
The Gary Sigman Superbird driven by Kevin Terris was not a street Superbird.    On a side note.    Gary used to live across the street from us in Harbor City.
 

Thanks, I messaged Dick about the car and he never got back to me. I always kinda suspected it was a West Coast built car also. and like I said Nadine Sigman couldn't remember. nor has any photos of it she could find. it's funny when you look in photos at Riverside how many photographer were in the background taking pics but yet no photos exist of Terris' Superbird. very rare care to find.




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« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2015, 11:52:08 PM »

Dick is on Facebook.   Talked to him a few times.  Radke bought the front end off his bird.  The nose made it's way back on to a Superbird in Denver.
Dad took a few shots of Kevin's Runner over the years. Here is one.     I have some with me in them as a little tot somewhere.


* 10957538_10205804135243021_367251575_n.jpg (23.57 KB, 426x296 - viewed 572 times.)

* Boracar-vi chuck bown.jpg (50.95 KB, 676x386 - viewed 588 times.)
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wingcar builder
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2015, 12:11:41 PM »

Dick is on Facebook.   Talked to him a few times.  Radke bought the front end off his bird.  The nose made it's way back on to a Superbird in Denver.
Dad took a few shots of Kevin's Runner over the years. Here is one.     I have some with me in them as a little tot somewhere.

Yeah me and Dick are friends on fb also. here is another shot with the nose removed.

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wingcar builder
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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2015, 12:26:35 PM »

Not to get to far off subject, but my friend Carl worked / retired from Rose auto wrecking and did photography work to. Funny how USAC had their lax rules on bodies but this photo Carl took of Jack's Charger at Sonoma 1969 is quite interesting. winner wins a cookie who spots it first!!  Doug S. can't play tho. Wink





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moparchris
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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2015, 12:31:13 PM »

Charger 500 grille but recessed rear window?
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Mike DC (formerly miked)
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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2015, 01:15:49 PM »

  
Is that how USAC weighed the cars at the time?  No corner or side figures?  

Richard Petty would never have lost a race.    
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warmpancakes
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2015, 02:31:17 PM »

There is a huge difference in the chassis under a production body vs a race car, even back then.








this is a great picture
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Arnie Cunningham
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« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2020, 12:35:21 PM »

Hey All,
This just surfaced - I asked Doug about it.  I think he is correct that it is the wing off the #32 car.


* Screenshot_20200807-133311_Gallery.jpg (157.2 KB, 615x305 - viewed 137 times.)
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« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2020, 08:39:31 PM »

worth mentioning is mr dempsey is no longer with us, having passed away not long ago

the man was a wealth of information and will be missed
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