Ignition switch with Ron francis 24/7 problems

[frank1966]

I started my car today for the first time with the 24/7. It cranks well and starts but when I release the key it does not run, the starter gets engaged again?
I also installed an MSD ready to run dist. I tied IGN1 and IGN2 together to the kits ign wire.
The car only runs if I hold the key at the full turn position? Are my wires backwards?

I verified with Ron francis that

Our yellow wire (starter) from the switch goes to their blue

Our black to their brown for ACC

Our dark blue (IGN1) and brown (IGN2) tied together to their orange IGN feed

and red to red.

Any ideas?

Thanks

[tan top]

 silly question I know  ,     was the car running before ok ? ,  swapped to a ron francis harness ?  & MSD !    just to eliminate things  , any chance you can swap back to the stock ignition set up with the ron francis  harness ! ,  then go from there !

[frank1966]

Yes, running no problems. The question is why is it when I release the key after the car runs, it reverts back to cranking again. I think it has something to do with ign2 tied to ING 1. If it was a vacuum or advance issue the car should either not run or stall I think.

[tan top]

 sorry I don't want to sound too stupid     ,  ive just googled up the 24/7  harness ,  with out seeing any wiring diagrams of how & what goes where , & tracing the wires back in person , to how they have been connected up   i'm a bit stumped  ,

only thing I can help with  on the stock 70 charger wiring OEM , the yellow from ignition switch goes to the starter relay ! 

as for the vacuum advance ,  providing everything has been connected & set up correctaly  it wont have no effect at idle & cranking , 

   

[Pete in NH]

Well, I suspect there is clearly an issue with ING-1,ING-2 and the starter relay wire at the ignition switch, but without seeing the Ron Francis wiring diagrams I have no idea what!

Is there anyway you can post the Ron Francis diagrams?

[Rolling_Thunder]

I had a similar problem with my GM keyed painless wiring kit - I believe you need to jump the IGN wires together because the mopar key switch needs power on both IGN wires to keep the car running. IIRC I just made a jumper and it ran fine after that 

[frank1966]

Ok thanks that makes sense to tie them together. I think I found my problem. Iam running an MSD ready to run, so according to the directions with my original distributor and using a ballast, the coil feed would go to the ballast then a lead from the other side to the POS coil side. Now with MSD that lead goes directly to the POS coil correct?

What I think iam missing is a lead from IGN side of the relay to the POS side of coil? I do not have that now. I only have a lead coming from the IGN switch to IGN on the relay? They sent me a lead with 2 wires attached, one that goes to the IGN switch and the other with a diode that goes to the POS coil? Not sure what a diode does, I didn't think I needed this anymore? I think I need to use this dual lead with the diode inside?

What does a diode do?

Once the car is running is the relay always hot in order to supply 12V to the coil? Or is that the job of the Coil feed lead coming from the fuse box?

[frank1966]

FYI, not sure if anyone else experienced customer service with ROn francis but they see, annoyed when I call to ask for help. I think they assume that guys who buy their kits are experienced and understand fully wiring.

[b5blue]

A diode allows voltage in only one direction. It would prevent "back feeding". Why you have one and what your doing I am no help on. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

The diode would be for the msd distributor. The ready to runs will see back fed voltage and continue running when the key is turned off if its wired direct feed. The fix is a diode, or use a power feed wire to the distributor that has a load on it. The rest of your issues, i would need their wire diagram.

[frank1966]

Thanks for that, I guess my question is do I need a 12V lead from the I side of the ignition relay to the coil? Ron francis does not have a wiring diagram, they send a very general instruction manual. The only lead I have on the IGN side of the relay is a wire from the IGN switch.

If its not a wiring issue could it be I screwed up the distributor swap so bad that it will not run, just crank? I did mark it when I pulled it, I may be off by a little, wires are in the correct firing order.

[Pete in NH]

Thanks for that, I guess my question is do I need a 12V lead from the I side of the ignition relay to the coil? Ron francis does not have a wiring diagram, they send a very general instruction manual. The only lead I have on the IGN side of the relay is a wire from the IGN switch.

If its not a wiring issue could it be I screwed up the distributor swap so bad that it will not run, just crank? I did mark it when I pulled it, I may be off by a little, wires are in the correct firing order.

That's kind of the problem with these type of wiring kits, very general instructions. Unless you are good with basic electrical circuits you're going to have problems getting things working.

Since there are no Ron Francis diagrams can you post any diagrams MSD provided. Unless we can get some basic information its going to be nearly impossible to see what is going on. Its really hard to do this kind of troubleshooting over the internet. If I were there in person I would see what needed to be done in a few minutes. In the end most of us will need to see the wiring diagrams to be able to help at a distance.

I need to know more about this relay in the MSD system you mentioned as well as the diode lead.

[frank1966]

I will try to write out a diagram and try to explain it. I meant to say iam using our starter relay, not another ignition relay. From the I side of the starter relay is the yellow wire from the ign switch (actually a blue wire connected to the yellow wire). There is no feed from I to coil? I think iam missing that. I don't understand what the ign relay really does, does it always supply feed to the coil or is just active during crank? I know its linked to the neutral safety switch the G side.

I am also using a one wire alt, no external regulator. It looks like I do not need the brown ING 2 wire since that's for a ballast.

From the kit there is a coil feed that is connected to the fuse box, I have that lead on the pos coil side. The car cranks very well, just does not fire. I think my problem is with the I side of the starter relay, If I can understand what that is supposed to do that may solve my problem.

I guess iam also not understanding what is the source of a constant 12V to the coil? does it come from the starter relay?

[Pete in NH]

The 12 volts for the coil should come from the ignition switch blue wire (run position, ING-1), it has no connection to the starter relay. Here is where the universal wiring kits get into trouble on Chrysler products, Chrysler also has a second ignition position, ING-2 which originally went to the coil+ connection also. ING-1 went through the original ballast resistor, ING-2 bypassed the ballast resistor when starting the engine. 12 volts is provided by one or the other but not both at the same time. That is why MSD wants you to tie ING-1 and ING-2 together.

The yellow wire from the ignition switch should only go to the starter relay, nowhere else. The Ron Francis kit likely only has one ignition wire from the ignition switch, you need two and will have to provide a second one so that you will have coil voltage in both the run and start (cranking position) of the ignition key.

[frank1966]

The 12 volts for the coil should come from the ignition switch blue wire (run position, ING-1), it has no connection to the starter relay. Here is where the universal wiring kits get into trouble on Chrysler products, Chrysler also has a second ignition position, ING-2 which originally went to the coil+ connection also. ING-1 went through the original ballast resistor, ING-2 bypassed the ballast resistor when starting the engine. 12 volts is provided by one or the other but not both at the same time. That is why MSD wants you to tie ING-1 and ING-2 together.

The yellow wire from the ignition switch should only go to the starter relay, nowhere else. The Ron Francis kit likely only has one ignition wire from the ignition switch, you need two and will have to provide a second one so that you will have coil voltage in both the run and start (cranking position) of the ignition key.

Yes correct, yellow to relay. Ron francis has a coil feed that goes to the coil, but they are saying I need a second wire where the yellow wire connects on the starter relay also to the pos coil. I think this lead will give power on during starting. Iam not sure if that is how the relay works. I assume its hot only during starting, once the car is running and key comes off start position, then the coil is feed by the coil feed.


What I trying to prove is if the I side of the starter relay is only active during start and not during run.
The thing is I have none of the original wiring so those IGN 1 and 2 are feed by one wire. Then I think the coil feed lead is what feeds the coil.

[frank1966]

I also do not want to tie those 2 12g wires together if I don't need to. I cant figure out the best way to tie them together so they fit into a male connector in order to connect to the female connector.

[Pete in NH]

I think who ever you are talking to at Ron Francis is giving you some incorrect information. You do not want to tie the yellow starter relay wire to the coil +. If you do, the main coil + feed would back feed the starter relay in the normal run position of the ignition switch and the starter would continue to crank the engine while the engine was already running. That would not be a pretty picture and would likely damage some stuff.

[frank1966]

I think who ever you are talking to at Ron Francis is giving you some incorrect information. You do not want to tie the yellow starter relay wire to the coil +. If you do, the main coil + feed would back feed the starter relay in the normal run position of the ignition switch and the starter would continue to crank the engine while the engine was already running. That would not be a pretty picture and would likely damage some stuff.

They put a diode in that lead. I don't know another way to wire it then

[Pete in NH]

Okay, a properly installed diode would prevent the back feed problem. The end of the diode with the band on it would go to the coil + and the other end to the yellow relay wire.

If you are using the original Chrysler ignition switch there is no need for this diode arrangement, just follow the MSD install instructions and tie ING-1 and ING-2 together.

[frank1966]

It says I need a relay that looks just like our starter relay to feed the coil.

[frank1966]

Id.like to understand how each of the 5 wires are connected to each other and what is the flow of current?  Does red connect to yellow when you in start? How does ign 1 and 2 connect since they have there own feed?

[frank1966]

Why can't i just extend the brown ign 2 to the pos coil and gave ign 1 connected to the feed from the fuse box.

[TexasStroker]

The ignition switch was/is one of the things I had questions on when I was exploring aftermarket wiring harnesses. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,113405.0.html

Maybe John_Kunkel can walk you through it as he had mentioned the ignition switch being one of the big issues with aftermarket kits.

I still need to get things ordered in and set up...hoping that can start happening soon.

Maybe this thread will help a little:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=215487&page=2

[frank1966]

From what understand the switch connects the batt feed to the other leads. Then these leads feed sources. Since I do not have any original harnesses I don't see why tying ING 1 and together at the switch. They should be feeding something like coil and fuse box. I think ign 1 should feed my fuse box and ign 2 should feed my coil. Sound correct?

[frank1966]

The 12 volts for the coil should come from the ignition switch blue wire (run position, ING-1), it has no connection to the starter relay. Here is where the universal wiring kits get into trouble on Chrysler products, Chrysler also has a second ignition position, ING-2 which originally went to the coil+ connection also. ING-1 went through the original ballast resistor, ING-2 bypassed the ballast resistor when starting the engine. 12 volts is provided by one or the other but not both at the same time. That is why MSD wants you to tie ING-1 and ING-2 together.

In rereading your post since I do not have any original wiring I think I should connect ign 1 to the ign lead from Ron Francis and extend ign 2 to the coil. The box also has a coil feed coming out which goes to the coil.
The yellow wire from the ignition switch should only go to the starter relay, nowhere else. The Ron Francis kit likely only has one ignition wire from the ignition switch, you need two and will have to provide a second one so that you will have coil voltage in both the run and start (cranking position) of the ignition key.

[Pete in NH]

From what understand the switch connects the batt feed to the other leads. Then these leads feed sources. Since I do not have any original harnesses I don't see why tying ING 1 and together at the switch. They should be feeding something like coil and fuse box. I think ign 1 should feed my fuse box and ign 2 should feed my coil. Sound correct?

No, not correct. ING-1 is only powered in the run position of your ignition switch and ING-2 is only powered when cranking the engine. This is why with an MSD system you need to tie the two together, so the MSD system and coil have power during both normal run and when cranking the engine.

Exactly which MSD system do you have? I'll try to look it up and go from there. 

[frank1966]

Iam talking about the leads directly from the ign switch since I do not have any bulkheads or any original wiring. It doesn't make sense to me to tie those together to the one ign lead that goes to the fuse box of ron francis kit. I have another lead from the box to the coil - I think that is the lead to supply constant 12v to the coil. Tying ign 1 and 2 to this lead to the box seems wrong. Ron francis techs are not sure either. Tying them together to that lead didn't work, the car cranked well, but didn't fire.

[Pete in NH]

Okay, I think the only way I'm going to be able to make any sense out of all this is to know exactly which MSD system you are trying to hook up.

[frank1966]

Iam using MSD ready to run 8388. So It turns out I needed to use a diode lead from the start side of the starter relay to the POS side of the coil.
From the IGN switch I attached IGN 1 to the IGN lead from the fuse box, then connected the coil feed from the box. Fired up no problem!

It did not make a difference if I tied IGN 1 and 2 together to the IGN lead from the box. I don't get it. I also tried running IGN 2 straight to the coil without using the diode lead, did not start - no charge at the coil.

If IGN 2 is hot during start why would it not ignite the coil when I had it connected directly? Maybe there is something wrong in my new aftermarket switch?

[Pete in NH]

Good to hear you got it running!

The diode lead from the starter relay to the coil is taking the place of the IGN-2 connection, which is why its working.

[frank1966]

I tested the leads from the ign switch, the reason why IGN 2 does not fire the coil because its only putting out 10 volts. Either something is wrong with the switch or its supposed to be that way, but it should not since IGN 2 is a bypass of the ballast to deliver 12V during start up. all other leads from the switch are correct.