Ignition 1, ignition 2

[Dino]

Okay so I'm trying to map out where these dozens of wires from the alarm and remote starter go. I have power wires for ignition 1 and ignition 2...do 2nd gens have an ignition 2 because I don't even know what the heck that is?

[b5blue]

Ignition 1 gives full 12V to coil for cranking (start) to get things going. #2 feeds the ignition resistor so you don't bake the coil running full 12V. 

[tan top]

 have a look here  ,  brown from  ignition switch  via  Q terminal on the fire wall block connector . light  blue with white tracer from ignition switch  / think it changes to a solid light blue before resistor  vie  terminal N on the fire wall block connector .

 i'm always forgetting  what  color is ignition 1 & 2    think always thought   ignition 1  run is  blue (N) & ignition 2  start is  Brown ( Q)  


dark blue from ballast to  plus side of the coil

[Dino]

Ah okay that makes sense.  

Now, since I'm running the Firecore RTR system I no longer have a ballast resistor and the blue and brown wires are tied together. So does that mean in essence that I no longer have ignition 2?

[frank1966]

that's what it sounds like to me, IGN 2 is only for the ballast.

[XH29N0G]

Double check, because I suspect they get power from each at different key positions so it depends how you modify as to whether it will work.  My understanding is that one works when the key is in the crank position and one works when the key is in the run position.  If you disconnect one of them, you will lose power in one of those positions.  Someone else will know the real answer.

[Dino]

Here's the wiring instructions just for the remote starter, which is the one related to ignition. Let's see if this makes sense:

H/1 and H/2 are going to the same wire, from ignition to starter so I think that's the yellow wire on my car. I cut the yellow wire and attach the purple to the end going to the starter relay, and I attach the green to the end going to the ignition.

H/3 I'm not sure about. Obviously one of the two power wires needs connecting but I'm not sure about the other. I don't plan on attaching it to the ignition switch feed though but rather will run it to the battery, fused.

H/4 is for climate control but since ours are vacuum operated that's not going to work so I'm not using it.

H/5 goes to the ignition wire so since I have tied blue and brown together I guess I'm splicing into that one somehow?

H/6 and H/7 are for ignition 2 so I think I can just leave those off.  Thoughts?


H/1 PURPLE
(+) STARTER OUTPUT
After cutting the starter wire connect the PURPLE wire to the end going to the starter motor.

H/2 GREEN
STARTER INPUT
After cutting the starter wire connect the GREEN wire to the end going to the key side of the ignition.

H/3 RED (2)
(+) 12V INPUT FOR HIGH CURRENT OUTPUTS
Remove the two 30-amp fuses prior to connecting these wires and do not replace them until the satellite has been plugged into the control module. These wires are the source of current for pink ignition, orange accessory, purple starter, and the coils for the relays in the relay pack. They must be connected to a high current source. Since the factory supplies (+)12V to the key switch that is used to operate the motor, it is recommended that these wires be connected there.
Note: If the factory supplies two separate (+) 12V feeds to the ignition switch, connect one RED wire of the satellite to each feed at the switch.

H/4 ORANGE
(+) ACCESSORY OUTPUT
Connect this wire to the accessory wire in the vehicle which powers the climate control system.

H/5 PINK
(+) IGNITION OUTPUT
Connect this wire to the ignition wire in the vehicle.

H/6 PINK/WHITE
(+) SECOND IGNITION ACCESSORY OUTPUT
Connect this wire to the second ignition/accessory wire in the vehicle. (See menu feature 2-9.)
Note: For vehicles that do not have a second ignition/accessory wire, this connection is not required.

H/7 RED/WHITE
(+) 12V INPUT
Connect this wire to a +12V source. It supplies voltage to the pink/white 2nd ignition/accessory output. If the vehicle does not have a 2nd ignition/accessory, then this wire does not need to be connected.

[frank1966]

Double check, because I suspect they get power from each at different key positions so it depends how you modify as to whether it will work.  My understanding is that one works when the key is in the crank position and one works when the key is in the run position.  If you disconnect one of them, you will lose power in one of those positions.  Someone else will know the real answer.

I tried using each of them, blue wire only cranks very well but not firing. When I use the brown wire it cranks, acts like its running when I hold the key all the way. Once I start to let go of the key, the crank sound comes back. I have no other feeds to these wires, just one wire from the fuse box (ron francis kit).

[XH29N0G]

On my car, there are two wires coming from the key.  I do not believe I have a Ron Francis kit so don't know enough about the specifics.  These two wires go through the bulkhead and then are tied together at the ballast resistor because I am running an MSD 6AL coil and apparently do not need to separate them or run the ballast resistor.  I am guessing they could be tied together anywhere, but that in order to have it run with the key, that I would need both connected up to the key and then to the ignition.  I do not know if I have explained this well and really know that there are others on this forum that can answer the questions raised by you and Dino much better than I can. 

[b5blue]

  I put 1 & 2 together just after the switch to feed a relay (40amp) under the hood for my RTR. The switch turns on the relay and the relay feeds the RTR. I tapped ALT. output (black) to supply feed voltage to the relay. A parallel relay also feeds my electric choke likewise. (All inline fused.)
  Whatever ya do check voltage at the coil, you should have 13.5 average or your loosing spark intensity. (For RTR system.) 

[cdr]

  I put 1 & 2 together just after the switch to feed a relay (40amp) under the hood for my RTR. The switch turns on the relay and the relay feeds the RTR. I tapped ALT. output (black) to supply feed voltage to the relay. A parallel relay also feeds my electric choke likewise. (All inline fused.)
  Whatever ya do check voltage at the coil, you should have 13.5 average or your loosing spark intensity. (For RTR system.) 

done the same except no choke on mine. 

[Dino]

Rereading the wiring instructions again it says connect wire H/6 to ignition 2 or accessory. One click to the left or right on the ignition switch is accessory right? Should it go there? I'm just not seeing the purpose of this wire.

[cdr]

try it without 

[John_Kunkel]

The thing that makes the Mopar ignition wiring incompatible with some aftermarket wiring kits is the fact that IGN 1 and IGN 2 are never powered at the same time in any switch position.

IOW, IGN1 (factory blue wire) is powered only with the switch in the RUN position but shuts off in START and IGN 2 (factory brown wire) is powered only in the START position but shuts off in RUN.

[frank1966]

  I put 1 & 2 together just after the switch to feed a relay (40amp) under the hood for my RTR. The switch turns on the relay and the relay feeds the RTR. I tapped ALT. output (black) to supply feed voltage to the relay. A parallel relay also feeds my electric choke likewise. (All inline fused.)
  Whatever ya do check voltage at the coil, you should have 13.5 average or your loosing spark intensity. (For RTR system.) 

Why do you need another relay?

[b5blue]

  It's called power distribution or shedding. By supplying from Alt. output with twin leads feeding both ignition and choke I've A: reduced how far the current travels and B: increased the load capacity of both circuits to insure full power.
  I ran the fleet upgrade also, a separate 8ga wire from the Alt. to the main feed + stud on the ALT gauge. That gives a second path for dash controlled demands bypassing the main bulkhead connector through a sealed grommet. (More shedding load.) If I fed coil/ignition and choke on the same wire/relay it would slightly starve each other as the "electrical pinch point" ends up at the contacts of the relay. (Take a relay apart and look at the assembly inside.)
  My Alt. is a Denso rated for 120amp but used for it's ability to output 60amp @ idle. By installing a new "OER" brand ALT gauge rated for 60 amps I've increased the load capacity my system can handle recharging the battery also. 
  I replaced all my harnesses and did voltage checks before adding the electric choke carb, my coil was seeing about 11 volts. Now 13.5 average, same as battery. (As it should be.) I'm not a fan of adding anything to coil/ignition supply power, for years I ran a separate ignition switch.   

[frank1966]

The thing that makes the Mopar ignition wiring incompatible with some aftermarket wiring kits is the fact that IGN 1 and IGN 2 are never powered at the same time in any switch position.

IOW, IGN1 (factory blue wire) is powered only with the switch in the RUN position but shuts off in START and IGN 2 (factory brown wire) is powered only in the START position but shuts off in RUN.

Now iam confused, so if I tie them together from one feed they only get power based on the position of the key. In start, brown is active, once the key falls back to run the blue takes over.

[Pete in NH]

The thing that makes the Mopar ignition wiring incompatible with some aftermarket wiring kits is the fact that IGN 1 and IGN 2 are never powered at the same time in any switch position.

IOW, IGN1 (factory blue wire) is powered only with the switch in the RUN position but shuts off in START and IGN 2 (factory brown wire) is powered only in the START position but shuts off in RUN.

Now iam confused, so if I tie them together from one feed they only get power based on the position of the key. In start, brown is active, once the key falls back to run the blue takes over.

Yes, now you've got it!

[flyinlow]

It will be interesting to see how a remote starter works on a car that requires the choke to be manually set........I see a FITech fuel injection system in your future.

[Dino]

And there will be one!   

Not right now though, I need to get through school first. IF I get the car done before May, and that's a very big if, then I'll be using the remote starter only when the car's already warmed up such as coming back from a store or something. Nothing more than to show off.   

The remote starter will really only come into play once I have EFI installed. But at least the wiring will be done!

While I have you smart people here...I need to wire in a bunch of relays: 3 for the power doors, 1 for the power trunk, 1 for a ground when armed output, 1 for the parking lights, and maybe 1 or 2 more. Can I power these relays without running 6-7 wires from the battery? Does each relay need its own fused power wire?

[frank1966]

The thing that makes the Mopar ignition wiring incompatible with some aftermarket wiring kits is the fact that IGN 1 and IGN 2 are never powered at the same time in any switch position.

IOW, IGN1 (factory blue wire) is powered only with the switch in the RUN position but shuts off in START and IGN 2 (factory brown wire) is powered only in the START position but shuts off in RUN.

Now iam confused, so if I tie them together from one feed they only get power based on the position of the key. In start, brown is active, once the key falls back to run the blue takes over.

Yes, now you've got it!

So they must be tied together

[frank1966]

Unless I can figure a way to run a lead from the brown wire to the post coil side. I don't think that will work. I guess that's why they have me tapping off the ING wire and using a diode feed.

[frank1966]

I really want to fully understand this. I don't understand the flow of current through the ign switch. Doesn't feed mean bringing charge to a source? I have an ING feed from the fuse box and a coil feed. If charge is coming into the switch via ign feed to ign 1 and 2 where does it go after?

[flyinlow]

While I have you smart people here...I need to wire in a bunch of relays: 3 for the power doors, 1 for the power trunk, 1 for a ground when armed output, 1 for the parking lights, and maybe 1 or 2 more. Can I power these relays without running 6-7 wires from the battery? Does each relay need its own fused power wire?

Short answer, no.   To avoid frequent fuse replacement you would need to figure the current draw and how often they are used. For example door lock soliniods are frequently used together so you would need a fuse and power feed wire large enough for two lets say  10 amps each for 20 amp total.   You probably would not look the doors and pop the trunk at the same time (an other ten amps?)  Car manufacturers piggyback some loads. Your house is wired that way too.  If you have room and don't mind extra fuse blocks one fuse and one wire for each is probably the best.

To relay the headlights and parking lights I would have the relays and fuses as near the battery as possible. The less power you run thru the cabin the safer it is, less power thru old bulkhead connectors.

I have three additional fuse blocks. One always hot near the under hood charging post where the battery was (headlights, cooling fans). One always hot in the trunk next to the battery (tail lights, brake lights, trunk release, electric seats , heated seats, alarm)   One accessory  hot under dash (extra gauges, sound system, power ports) .

[Dino]

Short reply: dammit!  

Okay so power wire for each.  

I did the headlight relay upgrade a few years ago so I have two relays mounted on the radiator frame and they are protected by a circuit breaker. So dedicated power there.

The one I need for the parking lights is for the alarm system; when arm/disarm or when the alarm is triggered, the parking lamps will flash. Oh and the taillights, I'll wire those in as well. Hence my question on amp draw.  

The door locks will have a progressive unlock so I'll use one relay to lock both doors when I arm the system, one relay to unlock the driver's door when I push the unarm button once, and one relay to unlock the passenger side door if I hit the unlock button again. H2/1 is the progressive unlock wire from the alarm. See diagram.

I indeed won't be doing either of those while unlocking the trunk no, that would be weird.  

I'm not sure if I'm going to need more relays than that but if I add one or two I'll power, and fuse, them separately. I'm also adding diodes to the relays.

I think it's best to run a short heavy gauge wire from the battery post to a fuse block and hook up all my power wires there as suggested in my other thread. There's going to be a lot of wires but since not all will be drawing power at the same time I guess it can handle it.

What I need so far for power wires is one each to:
-alarm
-remote starter
-driver side power window module
-passenger side power window module
-trunk relay
-driver unlock relay
-passenger unlock relay
-both doors lock relay
-ground when armed relay (automatically closes all windows)
-parking light flash relay

That's 10 power wires! For the first 4 I'm running 10 gauge, should I use the same for the relays?

I can use the oval hole meant for the clutch master on manual cars to run the wires through. It has a plastic plug in there now so I'm going to figure out how to get the wires through that and have them sealed.

I already have the rest of the system beefed up. There is no more fusible link. An 8 gauge wire runs inside to the stock power splice through a 50A maxi fuse. Battery, 90A alternator, and starter relay are connected by 6 gauge wires and fused by the battery. Ammeter was replaced with a volt meter.

[flyinlow]

Not  sure what the door looks and windows pull amp wise. I just made a guess at 10 amps for discussion.  The windows and door locks are an intermentant load so you can use a smaller gauge wire if you want. A 10 gauge wire is a heavier wire than the stock alternator charging wire was. Having a heavier wire is fine as long as it is fuse or breaker protected.

How does the window up function of arming the alarm know when the windows are fully up and stop trying to raise them?

[Dino]

The window modules that intercept the stock power window wires have built in relays and resistors. Once the module senses an increase in load, such as hitting the end of travel or a hand in the way, it stops the window. There are also dip switches on the side to fine tune the resistors themselves as the old inefficient motors can prematurely stop the window as well. The modules also turn the stock window switches into one-touch switches.

[flyinlow]

 

Lots of 12vdc wire current charts online. 16 gauge handles a lot of jobs.

[Dino]

Yeah, I have to figure out how long the wires will be. 16 gauge wires would help to actually run them. A dozen of 10 gauge wires becomes quite the bundle!

[cdr]

i would use circuit breakers for the power windows, the factory did on most. 

[Dino]

Yes the stock wiring has a circuit breaker and a relay going to the ignition. I was told I didn't need to hook up the stock power wire since these modules now provide power. If I do however I'll be using a circuit breaker.

[Dino]

I'm looking at the alarm's wiring harness and I need to know what size fuses to use. I want to mount a fuse block with a common power wire near the battery where all the power wires can run to.

The power wire for the alarm has a 15 amp fuse on it to protect the module. If I extend the wire to a fuse block near the battery with a 10 awg wire then what size fuse does it need? Also 15 amps? More or less?

The wire that feeds the parking lights has a 10 amp fuse on it and it'll be going to a relay. What size fuse and wire to power that relay? 15A and 16 awg or same gauge as the alarm's wire? I was told I can have 15 amp fuses protect each of the relays I'll be running.

The wire that powers the remote starter has a 30 amp fuse protecting that module. Same question here, what size fuse on the 10 awg wire running to the fuse block?

The window modules are each protected by a 20 amp fuse and I'm also going to run 10 awg wire to the fuse block. Do I simply use the same value fuse there?

So assuming the fuses on the power wires have the same values as the ones protecting the modules, and 15 amp fuses for each relay I get to a total of 175 amps. Now those will never be running at the same time so would it be alright to get something like this? It has 12 slots for fuses and a stud for a common power wire. Max capacity is 105 amps.

http://www.wiringproducts.com/bussmann-ganged-fuse-panel-12-position.html

I may look for something else, I'm not sure where to mount it yet. But this is just to get an idea. I may try to mount it under the battery but the vacuum can might be in the way.

Edit: I just looked and I have barely 1.5" between the bottom of the tray and the vacuum can so that's out. I'll see if I can mount it on the rad frame near the headlight mod relays.   

[Pete in NH]

Hi  Dino,

Use the fuse value suggested my the individual manufacturers of the modules. That fuse block will be okay, as you say you will never have everything powered up at the same time.


Wire size and fuse rating are sometimes closely linked but not always. For example, in house wiring a 10 gauge wire would be protected by code with a 30 amp breaker or fuse. This accounts for the possible wire temperature with 30 amps with wires that are buried in wall insulation and can not really cool themselves in surrounding air. In a car, a 10 gauge wire could safely handle 40 to 50 amps. I might warm up a bit but, no big deal. I would fuse a 10 gauge at 40 amps and never worry about it.

What you are doing is using a heavy wire to minimize voltage drops to your modules. In this case you want to size the fuses to protect the module not the wire.

[Dino]

Thanks Pete that makes perfect sense.

Do you think it would be okay to run 16 gauge power wires with 15 amp fuses to each relay? The relays will trigger the door and trunk locks. Turns out I don't need to relay the ground when armed ouput and the wire for the parking lamps comes with a 10 amp fuse so I may not need one there either.

[Pete in NH]

Thanks Pete that makes perfect sense.

Do you think it would be okay to run 16 gauge power wires with 15 amp fuses to each relay? The relays will trigger the door and trunk locks. Turns out I don't need to relay the ground when armed ouput and the wire for the parking lamps comes with a 10 amp fuse so I may not need one there either.

I'm not sure I quite understand the question. But, if you are talking about using 16 gauge wire on the relay control coils, I would fuse them very lightly, something like 3/4 amp for each relay coil.

[Dino]

Thanks Pete that makes perfect sense.

Do you think it would be okay to run 16 gauge power wires with 15 amp fuses to each relay? The relays will trigger the door and trunk locks. Turns out I don't need to relay the ground when armed ouput and the wire for the parking lamps comes with a 10 amp fuse so I may not need one there either.

I'm not sure I quite understand the question. But, if you are talking about using 16 gauge wire on the relay control coils, I would fuse them very lightly, something like 3/4 amp for each relay coil.

I need to run a power wire from each relay to the new fuse box near the battery. It's probably a 5-6 foot run so I figured 16 gauge would be alright.

[flyinlow]

16 gauge wire, 15amp fuse , 6ft. run, intermittent use will be fine.

You can use smaller wires for the control side of the relay....like 22 gauge for about a one amp load.

You can use 10 gauge wire for everything if you want , but you will feel bad when a Prius smokes you at a traffic light because you Charger weighs 6000 lbs.

[Dino]

 

Yeah I would feel pretty bad!

The problem is that I have no clue what the amp draw on these locks are. The trunk lock is out of an 80's Diplomat. The door locks are aftermarket actuators. I can run 18 gauge with a 10 amp fuse or less as long as it's enough. But to me this is a guessing game which is why I'm bugging you guys.   

[Pete in NH]

16 gauge wire, 15amp fuse , 6ft. run, intermittent use will be fine.

You can use smaller wires for the control side of the relay....like 22 gauge for about a one amp load.

You can use 10 gauge wire for everything if you want , but you will feel bad when a Prius smokes you at a traffic light because you Charger weighs 6000 lbs.

I agree, 16 gauge fused at 15 amps will be fine.

[Dino]

Great! Thanks guys. 

I ordered a 10 gang fuse box with cover and led indicators for blown fuses, relays & connectors, and some odds and ends. I should have everything late next week so I'll be back with more questions I'm sure.   

[frank1966]

I put in a new ign switch, I tested the leads coming off the switch, IGN 2 only has 10V when the key is in start. All other leads show 12V in ACC, Start and Run. IF that is a bypass to supply 12V why iam I reading 10v at the switch?

[flyinlow]

Is the starter cranking the engine when you read 10 volts?

[frank1966]

Yes, 12V on the yellow lead, strange right?

[flyinlow]

Yes, 12V on the yellow lead, strange right?

zxs


Maybe  not.  The whole electrical system voltage drops when cranking the engine.

Put the car in drive (so the starter won't crank, assuming your neutral safety switch works)  read the voltage in with the key in the start position with out the starter draw down.

[igozumn]

Yep.  Normal. 

[Dino]

Well I did it again...I have confused myself. I swear it's my super power...

I have two wires coming off the remote starter; one is supposed to go to ignition 1 and one to ignition 2. However since ignition 1 and 2 are joined then I should be able to ignore the hookup for ignition 2 right?

Now, I have tied the brown and blue wires together at the bulkhead connector. The wires are still individual from the ignition switch to the BH connector. Once there they are joined into a single packard connector in the BH.

Here's where I got confused: do I still splice both remote start wires to the brown and blue or is one going to be reduntand since brown and blue are joined down the line? Would it hurt if I spliced both?
If I hook up only the ignition 1 remote starter wire then can I just pick either brown or blue or is this not going to work because I'm splicing into the wire before the spot where they join?

Help...

[b5blue]

  I don't really know but think for your add on stuff the confusion starts from similar number and function labels that are not equivalent.  Ign. 1 and Ign.2 in the kit could be Ign. on and Ign. cranking...while on the car the same ID. is only to the coil. I've wired navigation systems for the USAF, Houseboats, Homes and condos, built elevator control panels, factory and industrial equipment and even fixed the legendary British sports cars but you've got me stumped. 
  You need to make a wiring diagram and include schematics for each sub set of add on accessory. Then create an interface to Charger diagram or later your screwed if anything acts up.       

[John_Kunkel]

Problems with the separate ignition systems has been discussed before; for any apparatus that needs ignition power in both Start and Run, the diagram below using a ISO relay will provide constant ignition power at the "12V" terminal.

[Dino]

I like that relay diagram! Thanks John.

I've been researching this remote starter again. It has three power wires to it. One powers the module itself, one powers ignition 1 and the last one powers ignition two. I think I've been looking at this the wrong way. I thought because both IGN1 and IGN2 are joined on my car that I don't need to hook up the IGN2 remote start wires. But it may be that I do need to hook them up so that these wires can be powered when I hit the remote start button. If I leave one off then I either don't give the remote starter module power at crank or at run, so the car wouldn't start or wouldn't stay running.

These power wires also bypass the original power wires because I'm starting the car with the ignition off. Only when I turn on the key with the engine running does the stock wiring take over and the remote starter seizes function.

Does that make sense?

So I'll go ahead and wire up both IGN1 and IGN2...and hope I don't fry the hell out of this car...

Thanks for bearing with me fellas, I know I'm a hassle.