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Choosing an engine to build

Started by Paul G, May 14, 2017, 11:07:54 AM

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Paul G

I am getting ready to attempt my first engine build. I want to get in the >500 HP range. Challenger 340 has a recipe to do this on this site. Most likely that is what I will try to follow as closely as I can using local machinists.

This should push the car in to the 12 second range. But mostly it will be respectable on the street next to the next Mustang GT or Challenger RT that knows he can beat the old dog. Right now there is no contest. The 360 barely gets in to the 14 second range on the track.

So choosing the block to build raises questions. Should I hunt down the cheapest core I can find or get one that is currently running? Talking with some local guys who have some experience engine building, I am told that even a running engine needs to be torn down and sent to a machine shop for inspection and prep. So find the cheapest, or spend more on something that runs?

I can buy a 500 HP crate engine for what, $8K to $9K right now? What is a real world estimate to build an engine doing most of the assembly myself, with some experienced help of course?
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

BSB67

what size engine are you planning?

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

Paul G

440. Stock stroke. I really plan to keep it simple. Street engine, nothing radical. Keeping cost down is a good thing. I wish I could just email Muscle Motors and have an engine delivered to the house. But I am not in that income bracket.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

c00nhunterjoe

What are the plans for the rest of the drivetrain and suspension? Are you building a track car or a cruiser? You dont need 500hp to run 12s if done right. But there are many many factors in any build.

Paul G

Ok, This is a street cruiser, A/C, PS, PB, comfy interior, 400W amp, 4 speakers. It's heavy.   

The car currently has 46rh OD trans. It can stay. It will need an Ultra Bell to convert it to the big block. When I had it rebuilt some parts were put in it to handle 500 HP, at least that was my request to the trans builder. It is fully auto using pressure switches to control OD and LU. It works, but they say it consumes more power than a 727, I dont know for sure.

It has an 8 3/4 sure grip, 3.91 gears. The rear leafs are pretty stiff and have too much arch for my liking. I used 1" blocks to bring down the rear of the car to get the stance more to my liking. Has a pinion snubber installed.

Hellwig sway bars front and rear. Polly bushings in the front suspension. Set up for better cornering on the street and some light autocross days.

Front power disk brakes with Hawk pads, rear drums stock. 

1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

BSB67

If you are buying all new stuff, doing it yourself will probably cost you more than buying a motor that is done new buy professionals like MM.  It does me.  I do it because I like it.  

Based on what you want, a stock stroke 440, you need to make sure that you end up with a good block, crank, caps, retainer, and balancer.  Buying them separate might be a bit cheaper, but less certainty about the parts. Buy it running, its probably okay.  If you starting with no 440 at all,  it will become exhausting collecting all of the hardware and accessory brackets, IMO.  You won't save money using factory rods/heads and TRW style replacement pistons.  

If you buy someone else motor that is running, no matter what they tell you about it, don't believe it. Presume you will have to not only go through it, but presume you will need to redo everything.

If I were in your shoes and wanted to do most of the work and decision making myself,  I would look for a complete running motor, or one recently pulled from a car, that is worn-out.

Be sure you are very clear with who ever you are using to help you in the decision making.  I'm always cautious with using "hp" numbers in describing your wants.  There is just too much bs surrounding hp numbers.  You can run 12's with 350 hp.  We have done a bunch of 12 second - true street cars, and I can tell you a lot of people dont think in terms of what I call a true street car.

Be this clear: I want to run 12.6's @ 111 mph on a street tire with a 1.90 sixty foot in a 4000 lb car running in a DA of 3500'.  This is doable but a guy needs to know what he is doing to get there if you are looking for a docile street cruiser too.

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

c00nhunterjoe

Yup.  :iagree:. If it were my build based on what else you have: a true 10.5:1 bottom end, fully ported edelbrock or trick flow heads. (You will spend as much on just the heads as you will the whole bottom end but its critical) Performer rpm intake, 850 cfm carb, custom ground mechanical cam in the 286 at .050 and .550-.590 lift on a 110 or 112 lsa for the overdrive range. 1 7/8 headers and a good fuel and ignition system.  You will easily crank over 500hp in high altitudes amd bust off low 12s with the 3.91s on your 100° days.

John_Kunkel

Pardon me but my karma just ran over your dogma.

Paul G

Quote from: John_Kunkel on May 14, 2017, 03:42:14 PM
Quote from: Paul G on May 14, 2017, 02:20:15 PM
400W amp, 4 speakers.

Please stay from my neighborhood.  :down:

Really John? It aint that bad. At least I dont use a sub. (yet)
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

c00nhunterjoe


1974dodgecharger

Quote from: Paul G on May 14, 2017, 11:53:07 AM
440. Stock stroke. I really plan to keep it simple. Street engine, nothing radical. Keeping cost down is a good thing. I wish I could just email Muscle Motors and have an engine delivered to the house. But I am not in that income bracket.

muscle motors have short blocks that costs 4500 bucks some stroked to 512 for same price you just provide the top end heads, rockers, etc...

heyoldguy

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 14, 2017, 03:08:12 PM
Yup.  :iagree:. If it were my build based on what else you have: a true 10.5:1 bottom end, fully ported edelbrock or trick flow heads. (You will spend as much on just the heads as you will the whole bottom end but its critical) Performer rpm intake, 850 cfm carb, custom ground mechanical cam in the 286 at .050 and .550-.590 lift on a 110 or 112 lsa for the overdrive range. 1 7/8 headers and a good fuel and ignition system.  You will easily crank over 500hp in high altitudes amd bust off low 12s with the 3.91s on your 100° days.

Really? 286 @ .050"? Typo right?

Paul G

Again about the amp. I couldnt hear the music over my 8 cylinder symphony either. I come in at the 1:00 mark

https://www.facebook.com/100008704065829/videos/1525111094455678/
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: heyoldguy on May 15, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 14, 2017, 03:08:12 PM
Yup.  :iagree:. If it were my build based on what else you have: a true 10.5:1 bottom end, fully ported edelbrock or trick flow heads. (You will spend as much on just the heads as you will the whole bottom end but its critical) Performer rpm intake, 850 cfm carb, custom ground mechanical cam in the 286 at .050 and .550-.590 lift on a 110 or 112 lsa for the overdrive range. 1 7/8 headers and a good fuel and ignition system.  You will easily crank over 500hp in high altitudes amd bust off low 12s with the 3.91s on your 100° days.

Really? 286 @ .050"? Typo right?

Good lord, yes, should have said 280 adv, not half. Lol.

Challenger340

Quote from: Paul G on May 14, 2017, 11:07:54 AM
I am getting ready to attempt my first engine build. I want to get in the >500 HP range. Challenger 340 has a recipe to do this on this site. Most likely that is what I will try to follow as closely as I can using local machinists.

This should push the car in to the 12 second range. But mostly it will be respectable on the street next to the next Mustang GT or Challenger RT that knows he can beat the old dog. Right now there is no contest. The 360 barely gets in to the 14 second range on the track.

So choosing the block to build raises questions. Should I hunt down the cheapest core I can find or get one that is currently running? Talking with some local guys who have some experience engine building, I am told that even a running engine needs to be torn down and sent to a machine shop for inspection and prep. So find the cheapest, or spend more on something that runs?

I can buy a 500 HP crate engine for what, $8K to $9K right now? What is a real world estimate to build an engine doing most of the assembly myself, with some experienced help of course?

Finding a decent Block core to begin work with, is becoming one of the biggest challenges facing most guys these days ? At least around here anyways. Out of the last 5 we pulled apart only 1 was std, and 1 was already .060" = JUNK !

So I dunno if running is good or bad anymore ? Because all of the above were pulled from various "running" Vehicles/Motorhomes, etc
Because.....
I mean LOTS of used up already .030/.040 Blocks running fine, some clean @ .060 W/Sonic Test, but less heat sink for cooling with A/C and high underhood temps, and decent std/clean @ .010" Forged Cranks are getting impossible.
So IMO,
* Find a good 440 Block first with whatever you have to do(make sure you keep the hardware, seal ret, T/Cover, Bolts etc), get it cleaned and rough Bored(see where the Bore cleans)
* Make decisions for a balanced rotating assembly including Crank(this will need checked/Pin-Fitted/Adjust Rod Clrcs)
* Finish the Block Machining(Hone W/T-Plate, Surface Decked, Mainline Checked or Honed W/ARP Studs)
* For 500 hp ? I still think Stealths are just fine(with re-done V/Angles) for the stock appearance, or the Sidewinder's from Marsh Perf. (if you don't need the "sleeper" look)
* Anything BB 440 with an honest 10.1:1 and something 240'ish @ .050 should get you the 500hp/low-mid 500's Trq on the entry level aluminums(with better Angles).... anything Stroker just pulls some more out of the limited heads, but more importantly the BB TORQUE curve for the big car.
Both are all done low 5,000's rpm.... and real "leave her in Drive" type deals, let the Auto shift by itself, nonetheless, you may be pleasantly surprised just how quick that stuff is ?

Good Luck with the Build ! 
Only wimps wear Bowties !

Paul G

Looking on MM website they have 451/400 built engines on sale for $6999 right now. They claim, "These engines make over 500 HP and 525 ft/lbs of torque". Pricing out a rebuild of an engine I would have to purchase, machine, and build myself, that price seems very reasonable.

http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

flyinlow

It's always nice to see green in the desert. NICE CAR!

Nine years ago my youngest Son and I built (assembled) a 446  for the '73 . The goals where :  100hp more than a stock 440 Magnum, 100 mph or better in the 1/4mile , 100K. mile life and 20 mpg on the road.
43k. miles so far, 18 mpg best. 100 in the 1/4 on a hot day with a passenger

Parts and machine shop . around $5000

Stress level doing cam break in with all theses parts that have not been together before....really high
Warranty...none
Satisfaction when YOUR engine fries the tires all the way thru first gear...........................PRICELESS  :2thumbs:

I would do it again in a heart beat. (stroker kit this time)

pipeliner

Quote from: Paul G on May 15, 2017, 08:39:30 PM
Looking on MM website they have 451/400 built engines on sale for $6999 right now. They claim, "These engines make over 500 HP and 525 ft/lbs of torque". Pricing out a rebuild of an engine I would have to purchase, machine, and build myself, that price seems very reasonable.

http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/
Wonder what kind of Carb and header setup they used to get those numbers and figure in the price for your complete engine. You can actually throw a 451 together yourself way cheaper than that if you have a good mechanist around IMO

Paul G

To build an engine myself the breakdown of estimated costs are below. Most prices are from Summit Racing, others are estimated. I am sure I left some things out and over or under estimated others.

$400.00   rebuildable 440 Block   
$75.00   ARP Main Studs   
$105.00   Clevitte Rod & Main Bearings   
$110.00   main bearings   
$542.00   ICON Forged Pistons (9953)   
$40.00   5/64" Moly Ringpack(cheap)   
$2,400.00   Trick Flow Aluminum heads   
$145.00   CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam   
$35.00   cam bearings   
$130.00   Johnson Hylift Lifters   
$265.00   Performer rpm Intake Manifold   
$540.00   850 Holley   
$1,000.00   440 Source valve train   
$85.00   Melling HV Pump & drive   
$95.00   oil pump drive shaft   
$72.00   Cloyes T/Chain & Gears   
$160.00   Mopar Performance V/Covers   
$150.00   Speed Pro O/H Gasket Set   
$29.00   Fuel pump   
$17.00   fuel pump rod   
$120.00   plug wires   
$25.00   plugs   
$1,500.00   Machine labor   

$8,040.00      
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

Paul G

This is my estimated cost for that 451/400.

$6,999.00   Muscle motors 400/451
$265.00   Performer rpm Intake Manifold
$540.00   850 Holley
$29.00   fuel pump
$17.00   fuel pump rod
$145.00   water pump housing
$120.00   water pump
$130.00   Distributors
$120.00   plug wires
$25.00   plugs
$95.00   oil pump drive shaft
   
$8,485.00   

1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

cdr

LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

pipeliner

Quote from: Paul G on May 15, 2017, 09:24:29 PM
To build an engine myself the breakdown of estimated costs are below. Most prices are from Summit Racing, others are estimated. I am sure I left some things out and over or under estimated others.

$400.00   rebuildable 440 Block   
$75.00   ARP Main Studs   
$105.00   Clevitte Rod & Main Bearings   
$110.00   main bearings   
$542.00   ICON Forged Pistons (9953)   
$40.00   5/64" Moly Ringpack(cheap)   
$2,400.00   Trick Flow Aluminum heads   
$145.00   CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam   
$35.00   cam bearings   
$130.00   Johnson Hylift Lifters   
$265.00   Performer rpm Intake Manifold   
$540.00   850 Holley   
$1,000.00   440 Source valve train   
$85.00   Melling HV Pump & drive   
$95.00   oil pump drive shaft   
$72.00   Cloyes T/Chain & Gears   
$160.00   Mopar Performance V/Covers   
$150.00   Speed Pro O/H Gasket Set   
$29.00   Fuel pump   
$17.00   fuel pump rod   
$120.00   plug wires   
$25.00   plugs   
$1,500.00   Machine labor   

$8,040.00      

I would go that route. My build is somewhat similar but I went roller. I went with Trick Flow heads but I used Mancini 1.6 Rollers Rockers, supposedly made by Harlan sharp,with Trick Flow Rocker shaft studs, Trick Flow Hydraulic Roller Lifters and Comp 286 HR.

Paul G

There are good running motor home engines that can be purchased for under $1000. These are known to be low compression, low HP. What would be required to increase the compression? Can it be done with different pistons? Or is decking the block the only way?
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

flyinlow

Pistons

SRP pistons took my '76 Town and Country  440 from 8:1 to 10:1 with Edey 84cc heads.

Nacho-RT74

just pistons are enough... then deck the block for blue printed specs... then closed chambers for even more if wished

talking about stock pieces, an earlier HP engine from a Motorhome ( or even a non HP engine )  engine changes on pistons CH, camshaft, valve springs, windage tray, double timming chain set and HP exhaust manifolds... and of course forged crank againts cast crank

Then pre 68 got closed chambers.

From there you know now what elso you can change to get more juice than a "regular" HP engine wth non stock pieces

( I'd go with B block stroke just to be different )
Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html

c00nhunterjoe

You already have everything smallblock... why not stroke that? The 4 inch stroke kits make for pretty nasty motors and then when you pop the hood... "its JUST a small block"

Nacho-RT74

I was to post about that... that could be a cool build
Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html

Paul G

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 16, 2017, 02:57:19 PM
You already have everything smallblock... why not stroke that? The 4 inch stroke kits make for pretty nasty motors and then when you pop the hood... "its JUST a small block"

I have thought about that. The 408's can get to 450 HP. How streetable is a 450 HP small block? Would 450 HP get me where I want to go? mid 12's?
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

Paul G

This showed up locally. What did he do wrong? I wonder why he is selling?

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/pts/6130656631.html

I know that buying an engine from someone is risky.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

BSB67

Quote from: Paul G on May 16, 2017, 09:52:05 AM
There are good running motor home engines that can be purchased for under $1000. These are known to be low compression, low HP. What would be required to increase the compression? Can it be done with different pistons? Or is decking the block the only way?

440 blocks are all the same, it make no difference what it was in.  The path and parts are the same

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

flyinlow

I built a 446 back in the 1970's (yea I'm frickin old) using six pack rods and Speed pro pistons. They where the hot ticket then. They did the job.

The lighter LY rods (non six pack) and lighter SRP pistons where recommended for my current engine. Easier on bearings.

The oil pan on the Craigslist engine won't fit your Charger.

Paul G

So when looking at core engines, is there a way to tell how much wear it has? With the head on I cant look for a ridge. Will there be the same amount of ridge on the bottom side, will it be visible with the oil pan off?

I found this a few hours away. It is a running engine sitting on the ground. The guy says he got it from a motor home. It has a Chrysler tag stating it was a factory new block in 1979. He says he resealed it, inside looked new, put new oil pump on it, etc. Says it wont fit in his 53 Chrysler so he cant use it. He will trade it for small Hemi heads for the Chrysler.

https://flagstaff.craigslist.org/pts/6127816995.html
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: Paul G on May 16, 2017, 03:09:12 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on May 16, 2017, 02:57:19 PM
You already have everything smallblock... why not stroke that? The 4 inch stroke kits make for pretty nasty motors and then when you pop the hood... "its JUST a small block"

I have thought about that. The 408's can get to 450 HP. How streetable is a 450 HP small block? Would 450 HP get me where I want to go? mid 12's?

Dont think of it as big block and small block. Think of it as bore and stroke vs headflow.

Paul G

I guess that answers that question. 440 cubic inches is better than 408. Bigger is better.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: Paul G on May 16, 2017, 07:12:57 PM
I guess that answers that question. 440 cubic inches is better than 408. Bigger is better.

Bigger is better only works if you have the headflow to support "bigger" the 408 has mkre stroke then a 440 amd can be built to have alot more low end torque. 600hp is no problem depending on the combination. 475-500 streetable hp is easily capable out of the smallblock stroker kits. It comes down to what you want.

Paul G

I got a price a while back from a local engine builder to stroke my 360 to a 408. He quoted over $7000 for 450 HP and said going with more power would not be street friendly. It didnt make sense to go that route back then when 525 HP is easy with a stock stroke 440 and makes for a nice cruiser.

I see stroked small block chevys all over the place making between 500 and 600 horse. Just dont see build combos for small block Mopar. It would be a great option for me.

1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: Paul G on May 16, 2017, 08:12:34 PM
I got a price a while back from a local engine builder to stroke my 360 to a 408. He quoted over $7000 for 450 HP and said going with more power would not be street friendly. It didnt make sense to go that route back then when 525 HP is easy with a stock stroke 440 and makes for a nice cruiser.

I see stroked small block chevys all over the place making between 500 and 600 horse. Just dont see build combos for small block Mopar. It would be a great option for me.



Cylinder heads, cylinder heads, cylinder heads. You can have 200 psi water in the fire hose, but if the hose has a kink in it, the water wont flow.

Paul G

You know what. I really dont know or trust any machinist here in town. I am going to call Duane Porter tomorrow and talk to him about a small block. He might have a build plan that gets me where I want to be. That will save a ton of money not converting.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

chargerbr549

My personal opinion if your looking to have a mild street and strip engine with good driveability that makes good torque and horsepower and is normally aspirated cubic inches is king with good flowing heads, of course eveybody's definition of what mild and streetable is are different. Look at BSB67's big block setup for reference it runs pretty damn good with hp ex manifolds, tight converter and 3.23 gears. If your mainly going drag racing cubic inches aren't as much of a concern since you would basically build a solid bottom end and put great flowing heads on it, loose converter, deep gears, cam with lots of duration and overlap, etc. but that tends to kill driveability or just add boost.

flyinlow

Quote from: Paul G on May 16, 2017, 06:36:30 PM
So when looking at core engines, is there a way to tell how much wear it has? With the head on I cant look for a ridge. Will there be the same amount of ridge on the bottom side, will it be visible with the oil pan off?





You want to check bore condition, bore size and taper. You need to pull the heads.  You can measure the pistons with the pan off.

Starting with a 4.32" bore. Most engines with use will have a ridge where the rings top out. A taper, the top wears faster. That's where the power is made. Scrapes/ gouges are bad. Some bores can have the ridge cut out and honed.
However , most builders bore and hone for a clean start. .030 over is popular (446 cu.in)  You could do .010,.020,etc up to .060 (452 cu.in) over with a good block. Anything besides std. and .030 are custom pistons which cost more.
Sonic testing the bare block will determine how far over each bore can go.


BSB67

Quote from: chargerbr549 on May 16, 2017, 09:20:30 PM
.......if your looking to have a mild street and strip engine with good driveability that makes good torque and horsepower and is normally aspirated cubic inches is king with good flowing heads, of course eveybody's definition of what mild and streetable is are different.

This.

1) Get clear on what streetable means to you
2) Get clear on exactly what your budget is
3) The hp will be what #1 and #2 above will allow it to be.

One of my general rules: achieving 1.0 hp/cu.in. in Russ' version of streetable (mild hyd cam, small tube header, 2.5 exhaust, 850 cfm, dual plane alum intake, cleaned up alum heads, 10:1 CR, stock converter, 3.23 gear) is not hard, but needs to be done right. Retaining small cam characteristics and achieving 1.10 or 1.15 hp/cu.in. is doable but it will cost a little more and the build becomes more aggressive.

500 hp from a 510 cu.in engine is easy and it will drive and feel stock.  500 hp from a 273 will feel like a Pro Stock engine (exaggerating of course)

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

firefighter3931

Mike's build would be ideal for your car Paul....same kind of car ; sleeper/cruiser build that'll idle all day long in traffic and boil the tires at will.  :2thumbs:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html


I have something similar planned for my 70 R/T and have a 493 rotating assembly sitting on the shelf. It's going to be a retirement project 5 years from now.  :icon_smile_big:



Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

pipeliner

Wow, the decisions. From small blocks to big block strokers with stealth heads 😂

Paul G

Quote from: pipeliner on May 17, 2017, 07:27:37 AM
Wow, the decisions. From small blocks to big block strokers with stealth heads 😂

Yes, it is overwhelming. Especially for a guy like me who over analyzes.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

c00nhunterjoe

Over analyzing when you are about to spend 10,000 on an engine is not a bad thing. Ask questions. Look at other builds, ask more questions, and be crystal clear on exactly what you want before pulling the trigger.

Bad B-rad

 :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


Good advice!!!
I have built a few Big Blocks in the past, last one 12 or so years ago.
So I thought I had a good idea on what I wanted and how to do it, but after asking questions and getting advice from guys like c00nhunter joe, and BSB67 and others I changed my tune completely!
The parts that are out now have changed the game so much from my last build 12+ years ago.
The off the shelf stroker kits, and the quality and weight of parts, and heads that are now available. Very different from years ago.
I now am just gonna rock my stock 383 4bbl until I can build a "B" block based stroker engine.

Much better to change your mind now then after you spend a ton of cash and then find out you are not happy and have to start all over. So like was said above once you know what you want out of your engine, do some homework.
And there are some very smart guy on here who will give great FREE advice!!!!!!!

randy73

Quote from: Challenger340 on May 15, 2017, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: Paul G on May 14, 2017, 11:07:54 AM
I am getting ready to attempt my first engine build. I want to get in the >500 HP range. Challenger 340 has a recipe to do this on this site. Most likely that is what I will try to follow as closely as I can using local machinists.

This should push the car in to the 12 second range. But mostly it will be respectable on the street next to the next Mustang GT or Challenger RT that knows he can beat the old dog. Right now there is no contest. The 360 barely gets in to the 14 second range on the track.

So choosing the block to build raises questions. Should I hunt down the cheapest core I can find or get one that is currently running? Talking with some local guys who have some experience engine building, I am told that even a running engine needs to be torn down and sent to a machine shop for inspection and prep. So find the cheapest, or spend more on something that runs?

I can buy a 500 HP crate engine for what, $8K to $9K right now? What is a real world estimate to build an engine doing most of the assembly myself, with some experienced help of course?

Finding a decent Block core to begin work with, is becoming one of the biggest challenges facing most guys these days ? At least around here anyways. Out of the last 5 we pulled apart only 1 was std, and 1 was already .060" = JUNK !

So I dunno if running is good or bad anymore ? Because all of the above were pulled from various "running" Vehicles/Motorhomes, etc
Because.....
I mean LOTS of used up already .030/.040 Blocks running fine, some clean @ .060 W/Sonic Test, but less heat sink for cooling with A/C and high underhood temps, and decent std/clean @ .010" Forged Cranks are getting impossible.
So IMO,
* Find a good 440 Block first with whatever you have to do(make sure you keep the hardware, seal ret, T/Cover, Bolts etc), get it cleaned and rough Bored(see where the Bore cleans)
* Make decisions for a balanced rotating assembly including Crank(this will need checked/Pin-Fitted/Adjust Rod Clrcs)
* Finish the Block Machining(Hone W/T-Plate, Surface Decked, Mainline Checked or Honed W/ARP Studs)
* For 500 hp ? I still think Stealths are just fine(with re-done V/Angles) for the stock appearance, or the Sidewinder's from Marsh Perf. (if you don't need the "sleeper" look)
* Anything BB 440 with an honest 10.1:1 and something 240'ish @ .050 should get you the 500hp/low-mid 500's Trq on the entry level aluminums(with better Angles).... anything Stroker just pulls some more out of the limited heads, but more importantly the BB TORQUE curve for the big car.
Both are all done low 5,000's rpm.... and real "leave her in Drive" type deals, let the Auto shift by itself, nonetheless, you may be pleasantly surprised just how quick that stuff is ?

Good Luck with the Build ! 

Can't you re-sleeve a block?

pipeliner

I'm trying to get my car back on the road or I would have went stroker on my 440. The SST T-56 Magnum with billet flywheel, hydraulic set up, new Hurst 6-speed pistol grip and clutch swallowed up $7500 of my budget lol but for what you are wanting if you decided to go with a 440, a stroker would seriously be a waist of money. Find a good 440 steel crank engine, turn the crank, put ARP rod bolts on the ly rods and some light weight pistons and that baby will last a lifetime.  Get a set of Trick Flow 240 heads, some good Rockers and a elderbrock RPM performer intake with whatever Carb and cam choice you want and you'll easily be over the 500 HP range and you'll even same some money to buy a nice set of TTI Headers for it lol. Yeah there's more Than that involved in it but you get the picture. It's good to over analyze and this process in deciding a build drove me crazy. There is a lot of good advice on here and I have taken it all in. You just have to decide for yourself what route is best for you. I have to go now just got a text that said my paint supplies and using PPD Deltron is going to be close to $3k. It never ends. Good luck :2thumbs:

Paul G

Ok, talked to a pro engine builder today. He builds engines for a local restorer, and he is recommended by some people in the local Mopar club. First thing I did was explain what I have. Then what I want, which is to outrun the the next GT, RT, SS or whatever comes up. My goal is to run a mid 12's quarter. We discussed what RPM the engine would have to spin up to with the 3.91 gears to get me through the traps at around 120 MPH. He said this engine will get me to 6000 RPM where I need to be with no problem.

He suggests a stroker big block. It can cruise in the St Patricks day parade with 110° heat with the AC on, and run 12's in the quarter.

His build would be for a complete engine, oil pan to carb. Dyno tested and tuned, and I can watch.

Hydraulic roller cam and valve train
10.5 ish compression ratio to run on pump gas
Trick Flow heads
Pro form or Holley 850 carb

He said using a 400 or 440 block is about the same regarding price and power output. The B engine would make fitting it under my hood much easier. Although the RB may have the air cleaner stick up through the hood which is very cool. Pros and cons to a B or RB build?

His price is going to be in the $8500 range, give or take. That sounds fantastic.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

Paul G

1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

chargerbr549

An option if you are going to a 440 based stroker is the indy dual plane manifold, it flows very well and will fit under the hood much easier than a performer rpm manfold.

justcruisin

Trapping at 120 will put you in the mid 11 second range. That's getting some steam up for a 4200lb car, not sure what the strength is with a lock up converter and OD. You will most probably need a hole in your hood with either the B or RB if you want a good manifold, you might want to factor in the cost of a power bulge hood. My 71 has about 3/4" under the power bulge hood with a edelbrock RPM, 1/2" spacer, 3/4 drop base cleaner on a 440.

pipeliner

Quote from: Paul G on May 17, 2017, 06:32:51 PM
Ok, talked to a pro engine builder today. He builds engines for a local restorer, and he is recommended by some people in the local Mopar club. First thing I did was explain what I have. Then what I want, which is to outrun the the next GT, RT, SS or whatever comes up. My goal is to run a mid 12's quarter. We discussed what RPM the engine would have to spin up to with the 3.91 gears to get me through the traps at around 120 MPH. He said this engine will get me to 6000 RPM where I need to be with no problem.

He suggests a stroker big block. It can cruise in the St Patricks day parade with 110° heat with the AC on, and run 12's in the quarter.

His build would be for a complete engine, oil pan to carb. Dyno tested and tuned, and I can watch.

Hydraulic roller cam and valve train
10.5 ish compression ratio to run on pump gas
Trick Flow heads
Pro form or Holley 850 carb

He said using a 400 or 440 block is about the same regarding price and power output. The B engine would make fitting it under my hood much easier. Although the RB may have the air cleaner stick up through the hood which is very cool. Pros and cons to a B or RB build?

His price is going to be in the $8500 range, give or take. That sounds fantastic.
You are not going to build a roller stroker motor for $8500 with Trick Flow heads lol. Might as well forget that. Helll just do a quick figure on some of the parts which I might be wrong on some of them. Stroker kit $2200, heads $2000. There $4200, almost half of the build. Carb $600, intake $300, roller cam set up $1000. There's $6100 . Roller Rockers- $500-1000.  Some stuff I can't remember the price, pushrods, time n chain, water pump, oil pump, fuel pump, distributor wires and plugs set up, Headers, valve covers, air breather set up, motor mounts, 6 qt. Oil pan and all of the gaskets. Are you going to need a new radiator set up for it, electric Fans??? Are you sure he is a professional because he just quoted you a price he can't back up unless he's doing half of the motor.

Paul G

Quote from: pipeliner on May 17, 2017, 08:43:20 PM
You are not going to build a roller stroker motor for $8500 with Trick Flow heads lol. Might as well forget that. Helll just do a quick figure on some of the parts which I might be wrong on some of them. Stroker kit $2200, heads $2000. There $4200, almost half of the build. Carb $600, intake $300, roller cam set up $1000. There's $6100 . Roller Rockers- $500-1000.  Some stuff I can't remember the price, pushrods, time n chain, water pump, oil pump, fuel pump, distributor wires and plugs set up, Headers, valve covers, air breather set up, motor mounts, 6 qt. Oil pan and all of the gaskets. Are you going to need a new radiator set up for it, electric Fans??? Are you sure he is a professional because he just quoted you a price he can't back up unless he's doing half of the motor.

$8500 is just the engine estimate. And yes there is a lot more involved in the swap. Radiator, engine mounts, headers, front drive, Ultra Bell, and probably do something about a hood that wont close. Several thousand more just for the conversion.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

Paul G

Quote from: justcruisin on May 17, 2017, 08:35:01 PM
Trapping at 120 will put you in the mid 11 second range. That's getting some steam up for a 4200lb car, not sure what the strength is with a lock up converter and OD. You will most probably need a hole in your hood with either the B or RB if you want a good manifold, you might want to factor in the cost of a power bulge hood. My 71 has about 3/4" under the power bulge hood with a edelbrock RPM, 1/2" spacer, 3/4 drop base cleaner on a 440.

How accurate are these online calculators? https://robrobinette.com/et.htm

Car weight:
* 4100

Wheel horsepower

* Flywheel horsepower

Horsepower:
* 500

>>Calculate<<

60 Foot Elapsed Time =
1.726341656785022

1/8 Mile Elapsed Time =
7.870506231699916

1/4 Mile Elapsed Time =
12.351917910992238

1/4 Mile Trap Speed =
122.02395287615376

1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

pipeliner

Quote from: Paul G on May 17, 2017, 08:56:39 PM
Quote from: pipeliner on May 17, 2017, 08:43:20 PM
You are not going to build a roller stroker motor for $8500 with Trick Flow heads lol. Might as well forget that. Helll just do a quick figure on some of the parts which I might be wrong on some of them. Stroker kit $2200, heads $2000. There $4200, almost half of the build. Carb $600, intake $300, roller cam set up $1000. There's $6100 . Roller Rockers- $500-1000.  Some stuff I can't remember the price, pushrods, time n chain, water pump, oil pump, fuel pump, distributor wires and plugs set up, Headers, valve covers, air breather set up, motor mounts, 6 qt. Oil pan and all of the gaskets. Are you going to need a new radiator set up for it, electric Fans??? Are you sure he is a professional because he just quoted you a price he can't back up unless he's doing half of the motor.

$8500 is just the engine estimate. And yes there is a lot more involved in the swap. Radiator, engine mounts, headers, front drive, Ultra Bell, and probably do something about a hood that wont close. Several thousand more just for the conversion.
Dont forget a new Harmonic Balancer and While your at consider redoing you gear box/ upgrading and the power steering pump and adding AC unless you already have it. Got to love it lol

justcruisin

I don't know about calculators but what I do know is my car is the same as yours - well similar, and it traps at 111/112 MPH and runs mid 12's @ 4150lbs. Probably run quicker if it was set up right.

Paul G

My car right now runs a best 14.9 at 98 MPH in the quarter. The calculator I used above says my car making 290 flywheel HP should run 14.7 at 102. Not far off. 
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

Challenger340

$8,500 including things like a Stroker Kit, Roller Cam/Lifters/Rockers/Pushrods and of course the Tick Flow Heads ? .... IMO, just does not leave much(if any) room for the application of quality Labor you want applied internal of the Engine ?

~ $2,000. Trick Flow Heads
~     $90. Head Bolts for above
~ $2,200. 440 Source Stroker Kit
~   $500. Hyd Roller Lifters (Comp)
~   $325. Hyd Roller Cam
~    $30. Thicker Timing Cover for Roller Cam Thrust
~   $700. Roller Rocker Arms (Something OK for the Roller Pressures)
~   $180. Pushrods (Again, something OK for the Roller)
~   $150. 6 qt Oil Pan & Pickup ('El Cheapo, but it will work)
~    $50. Stroker Windage Tray
~   $175. T/Chain & Gears W/Thrust provision for Roller
~   $100. Oil Pump
~   $150. Bronze Dizzy Gear & hardened Oil Pump Drive (if Billet Cam material on the Roller Cam)
~     $70. Main Studs (Good Idea for Stroker)
~   $175. Various Gasket, Fel-Pro 1009 Head(2) Etc.,  and remainder to Assemble Engine Including Intake Pan, etc.
~   $100. Harmonic Balancer
~    $30. Oil Pan Bolts, T/Cover, V/Cover & Intake Bolts
~   $300. Intake Manifold
~   $125. Valve Covers / Baffles / Breather.
~     $40.  Cam Brgs, Frost Plugs, Dizzy Bushing
_____________________________________
~  $7,500.  and I haven't even started trying to Check or Machine anything properly ?


Or start buying Distributor, Wires, Plugs, Flexplate, and a whole host of misc things ?

What about including even the basics in Block/Stroker prep:
Hot-Tank & Mag
Boring any Honing     Torque Plate ?
Milling the Block square ?
Check/Line Hone as Req'd for the Main Studs ?
**** and I haven't even started getting into stuff that should be done here ?

just say'in here......
and my apologies for raining on the parade Paul, but $8,500 just don't seem anywhere even close to "right" to me ?
Only wimps wear Bowties !

pipeliner

Quote from: Challenger340 on May 18, 2017, 10:35:21 AM
$8,500 including things like a Stroker Kit, Roller Cam/Lifters/Rockers/Pushrods and of course the Tick Flow Heads ? .... IMO, just does not leave much(if any) room for the application of quality Labor you want applied internal of the Engine ?

~ $2,000. Trick Flow Heads
~     $90. Head Bolts for above
~ $2,200. 440 Source Stroker Kit
~   $500. Hyd Roller Lifters (Comp)
~   $325. Hyd Roller Cam
~    $30. Thicker Timing Cover for Roller Cam Thrust
~   $700. Roller Rocker Arms (Something OK for the Roller Pressures)
~   $180. Pushrods (Again, something OK for the Roller)
~   $150. 6 qt Oil Pan & Pickup ('El Cheapo, but it will work)
~    $50. Stroker Windage Tray
~   $175. T/Chain & Gears W/Thrust provision for Roller
~   $100. Oil Pump
~   $150. Bronze Dizzy Gear & hardened Oil Pump Drive (if Billet Cam material on the Roller Cam)
~     $70. Main Studs (Good Idea for Stroker)
~   $175. Various Gasket, Fel-Pro 1009 Head(2) Etc.,  and remainder to Assemble Engine Including Intake Pan, etc.
~   $100. Harmonic Balancer
~    $30. Oil Pan Bolts, T/Cover, V/Cover & Intake Bolts
~   $300. Intake Manifold
~   $125. Valve Covers / Baffles / Breather.
~     $40.  Cam Brgs, Frost Plugs, Dizzy Bushing
_____________________________________
~  $7,500.  and I haven't even started trying to Check or Machine anything properly ?


Or start buying Distributor, Wires, Plugs, Flexplate, and a whole host of misc things ?

What about including even the basics in Block/Stroker prep:
Hot-Tank & Mag
Boring any Honing     Torque Plate ?
Milling the Block square ?
Check/Line Hone as Req'd for the Main Studs ?
**** and I haven't even started getting into stuff that should be done here ?

just say'in here......
and my apologies for raining on the parade Paul, but $8,500 just don't seem anywhere even close to "right" to me ?

c00nhunterjoe

Its gets him in the door and cornered after the engine is apart and parts ordered when the shop calls and says.... by the way, its gonna be another 3500 to finish it ....

Nacho-RT74

Quote from: Paul G on May 17, 2017, 07:51:53 AM
Quote from: pipeliner on May 17, 2017, 07:27:37 AM
Wow, the decisions. From small blocks to big block strokers with stealth heads 😂

Yes, it is overwhelming. Especially for a guy like me who over analyzes.

defintelly!!! LOL
Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html

Nacho-RT74

Quote from: Paul G on May 17, 2017, 06:32:51 PM


He said using a 400 or 440 block is about the same regarding price and power output. The B engine would make fitting it under my hood much easier. Although the RB may have the air cleaner stick up through the hood which is very cool. Pros and cons to a B or RB build?



Honestly ? maybe I'm byassed being a 400 owner, but the fact a B and an RB gets the same coolness view on engine bay ( hard to tell if you don't know about these blocks ), and you can get easilly the power you are expecting from a B block, being also lighter than an RB and the bigger bore... maybe I will stick on a B block, even more a 400.

but, that's just me

I have at this moment a 448 ( 400 @ 0.020 same than a 440 @ 0.042 overbore, the famous 451 but not based on the 400 @ 033 overbore, hence is not exactly the 451 ) into my 400 and nobody tells what I got...


https://youtu.be/wrZo8-7uvDs

( iddle was a bit higher than it should )

10.2 CR aprox and running AC without problems... pure stock look.

but haven't taken to a dyno to really know what I have, I simply built and enjoy
Venezuelan RT 74 400 4bbl, 727, 8.75 3.23 open. Now stroked with 440 crank and 3.55 SG. Here is the History and how is actually: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25060.0.html

justcruisin

Maybe ask the guy for an itemised written quote (presuming a sound workable block).

Paul G

Quote from: justcruisin on May 18, 2017, 02:20:31 PM
Maybe ask the guy for an itemised written quote (presuming a sound workable block).

That will be coming. It is the first step in the build process. That will determine if the written cost is the same as the "about" cost.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

Paul G

Quote from: Challenger340 on May 18, 2017, 10:35:21 AM
$8,500 including things like a Stroker Kit, Roller Cam/Lifters/Rockers/Pushrods and of course the Tick Flow Heads ? .... IMO, just does not leave much(if any) room for the application of quality Labor you want applied internal of the Engine ?


just say'in here......
and my apologies for raining on the parade Paul, but $8,500 just don't seem anywhere even close to "right" to me ?

I agree, and was a little surprised with that number when he stated it on the phone. And he is supplying the block to build.

What is normal? Say a guy walks in to a shop and asks for a price to build him an engine. Is it normal to put down on paper exactly what is going to be built and state a firm price? Or is it normal to estimate the cost and actually do the work on time and material?

I can see it done both ways. Shops sell complete crate engines for a set price every day.
1972 Charger Topper Special, 360ci, 46RH OD trans, 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.91 gear, 14.93@92 mph.
1973 Charger Rallye, 4 speed, muscle rat. Whatever engine right now?

Mopars Unlimited of Arizona

http://www.moparsaz.com/#

Challenger340

Quote from: Paul G on May 18, 2017, 04:09:19 PM
Quote from: Challenger340 on May 18, 2017, 10:35:21 AM
$8,500 including things like a Stroker Kit, Roller Cam/Lifters/Rockers/Pushrods and of course the Tick Flow Heads ? .... IMO, just does not leave much(if any) room for the application of quality Labor you want applied internal of the Engine ?


just say'in here......
and my apologies for raining on the parade Paul, but $8,500 just don't seem anywhere even close to "right" to me ?

I agree, and was a little surprised with that number when he stated it on the phone. And he is supplying the block to build.

What is normal? Say a guy walks in to a shop and asks for a price to build him an engine. Is it normal to put down on paper exactly what is going to be built and state a firm price? Or is it normal to estimate the cost and actually do the work on time and material?

I can see it done both ways. Shops sell complete crate engines for a set price every day.

IMO, I think it is quite "normal" and should be expected to receive a firm quotation regarding Parts/Pricing on any new build where the builder is supplying everything ?
The only intangibles should pertain around parts customer supplied if that's the case.... or in the case of currency exchange on parts that can fluctuate widely if you are in Canada(which you are not).
just say'in....
Where you are in the U.S(no currency/parts price fluctuations)..... and if the builder has experience with these types of builds.... a detailed Parts/Labor pricing to completion should not be an issue (IMO).
With one caveat though.... LOTS of time and discussion to coming up with EXACTLY what you want in expectations first, THEN... quote the build that satisfies those expectations. and of course always inclusive through to Dyno'd, PROVEN... and DONE, before it leaves !

The problem with Crate Engines, IMO, is who in the heck has the time to build them nowadays ?
NOT knocking them, I see some very reputable Shops selling them, just saying that they must be superman to find time, or they must be "cancellations" by Customers moving in another direction maybe ? who knows ?
Only wimps wear Bowties !