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Author Topic: Production number clarification for '69 Charger 500 and '69 Charger Daytona  (Read 4698 times)
aerolith
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« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2017, 12:41:40 PM »

Charger 500 (a real disappointment at high speed ovals) 580 built.
Charger Daytona, greatest car ever built in the history of Dodge, 503 built.
Errmm, that don't make sense???

I think its either 383, 392, 400, 413, 426, 440 etc., but never 580...possibly 572 but that is a 4.500, bore and stroke lol...not Nascar legal.

My C500 is Dec 19th and the last 440-C500 made in 1968.
Even on the last day of C500 production, Mother Mopar was making typo errors on them.
Vin tag XX, dash tag XX, block XS, title from Florida XS too...go figure.
If they were making those mistakes at the factory and records office, what chance do we stand nearly FIFTY years laters...

Aerolite
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moparstuart
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« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2017, 01:02:25 PM »

Charger 500 (a real disappointment at high speed ovals) 580 built.
Charger Daytona, greatest car ever built in the history of Dodge, 503 built.
Errmm, that don't make sense???

I think its either 383, 392, 400, 413, 426, 440 etc., but never 580...possibly 572 but that is a 4.500, bore and stroke lol...not Nascar legal.

My C500 is Dec 19th and the last 440-C500 made in 1968.
Even on the last day of C500 production, Mother Mopar was making typo errors on them.
Vin tag XX, dash tag XX, block XS, title from Florida XS too...go figure.
If they were making those mistakes at the factory and records office, what chance do we stand nearly FIFTY years laters...

Aerolite

2thumbs  Welcome
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6bblgt
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« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2017, 01:40:31 PM »

My C500 is Dec 19th and the last 440-C500 made in 1968.
Even on the last day of C500 production, Mother Mopar was making typo errors on them.
Vin tag XX, dash tag XX, block XS, title from Florida XS too...go figure.
If they were making those mistakes at the factory and records office, what chance do we stand nearly FIFTY years laters...

Aerolite

welcome!  2thumbs

what evidence do you have that your car was the last "made"?
your 500 was "scheduled" 12/19/68, when was it built?  did it leave Creative before or after the Christmas holiday?
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ksquared
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« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2017, 08:18:12 PM »

Daytona = 500 counting the converted "prototype" XS29 D. Reeker Daytona (there are 3 duplicates on the 503 VIN ship list)
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?


Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?

The only one of which I'm aware is 355109.  It's a known car, and owned by a DC.com member.

There is another missing VIN in the middle of a string of sequential numbers, 410792 - but on the Dealer Invoice List that VIN is shown as being cancelled from production.  Who knows if that one exists or not (probably not??).  It's not one I have seen or heard about.

In addition to the aforementioned duplicate VINs, the Shipping List is also mucked up with MIA car #s 92 & 115.


So it it then correct that there is a list of 503 Daytona VINs, but actually a total of 500 Daytonas produced?  Does #355109 make up for the missing #410792?  And, with the prototype, is that legally counted as a Daytona actually produced by Dodge?  Or is it 499 Daytonas and one prototype conversion?

And does this count the 50 Daytonas produced for Canada?  Or does that bring the total to 550?

Is there any further explanation with "MIA car #s 92 & 115?"  Were they not produced, thus reducing it by two, or is it some other theory?


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aerolith
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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2017, 05:18:12 AM »

My old friend Galen said back many moons ago that Dec 19 1968 was the last day of production for R/T's destined for the Creative upgrades.
I was told that 248662 was the last one taken from the production line for C500 duties, but that has been changed by modern records.
Still believe my 440ci 4-speed dana car is the last non-hemi C500 built?

First or last or somewhere in between, it don't matter, she is still 'one of 26' built for racing C500's which in my book is kinda RARE!!! 2thumbs

Aerolite
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odcics2
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2017, 05:37:53 AM »

Daytona = 500 counting the converted "prototype" XS29 D. Reeker Daytona (there are 3 duplicates on the 503 VIN ship list)
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?


Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?

The only one of which I'm aware is 355109.  It's a known car, and owned by a DC.com member.

There is another missing VIN in the middle of a string of sequential numbers, 410792 - but on the Dealer Invoice List that VIN is shown as being cancelled from production.  Who knows if that one exists or not (probably not??).  It's not one I have seen or heard about.

In addition to the aforementioned duplicate VINs, the Shipping List is also mucked up with MIA car #s 92 & 115.


So it it then correct that there is a list of 503 Daytona VINs, but actually a total of 500 Daytonas produced?  Does #355109 make up for the missing #410792?  And, with the prototype, is that legally counted as a Daytona actually produced by Dodge?  Or is it 499 Daytonas and one prototype conversion?

And does this count the 50 Daytonas produced for Canada?  Or does that bring the total to 550?

Is there any further explanation with "MIA car #s 92 & 115?"  Were they not produced, thus reducing it by two, or is it some other theory?




I have the original list that had 385 cars on it.  Yes, it wasn't complete but that was all we had in the early 90s.
That list has the Canadian cars on it.   (vins start with 414)
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nascarxx29
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« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2017, 05:48:34 PM »

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7862.0.html
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
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« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2017, 07:39:20 PM »

Quote
she is still 'one of 26' built for racing C500's

Would you mind elaborating what you mean by this and source of the info? Never heard of this before....



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aerolith
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« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2017, 06:06:11 AM »

Hi fellow Aero's.

We all know the hatred Folks have for 'STICK' cars even here in the UK, (in the land of Stick cars), they are never liked, especially in a fifty year old American two-ton Automobile, with manual steering gear!
Yep I have owned several, two 69 Superbee's (one a SIXpac) and a stunning 70 Cuda bigblock stickeroo car!
Drove them all the time in the 80's and 90's in London Town UK, until I went drag racing and had to sell them, boohoo... slap

So I am pleasantly surprised to see '26' 440 and '27' 426-hemi STICK C500's were ordered.
How many have survived the rigours of life, as they were obviously bought by RACER FOLKS!

As an avid GTX fan as well as a historic-NASCAR fan, its interesting to see the different build styles of these cars.
My 69-C500 has a spartan interior with a gearstick and a rev-counter.
My 71-GTX is loaded with every conceivable 'creature comfort', with AUTO.
Both are extremely fast but I would sure pick the Charger for doing 200mph in... Cheesy

I've had the pleasure of driving many Mopars over the years, some mine some belonging to others.
The greatest being a 67 GTX four speed HEMI car, in triple black... 2thumbs 2thumbs 2thumbs
It don't come any better than that... notworthy




Yep deffo built for racing, my 248662 C500, no radio, no aircon, no console/cup holder, no flip up lights, just clear glass and a plastic steering wheel.
No creature comforts here, AT ALL... drive drive drive

Aerolite
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Dragon Slayer
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« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2017, 06:56:20 AM »

Daytona = 500 counting the converted "prototype" XS29 D. Reeker Daytona (there are 3 duplicates on the 503 VIN ship list)
Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?


Are there any known documented Daytonas not on the ship list?

The only one of which I'm aware is 355109.  It's a known car, and owned by a DC.com member.

There is another missing VIN in the middle of a string of sequential numbers, 410792 - but on the Dealer Invoice List that VIN is shown as being cancelled from production.  Who knows if that one exists or not (probably not??).  It's not one I have seen or heard about.

In addition to the aforementioned duplicate VINs, the Shipping List is also mucked up with MIA car #s 92 & 115.


So it it then correct that there is a list of 503 Daytona VINs, but actually a total of 500 Daytonas produced?  Does #355109 make up for the missing #410792?  And, with the prototype, is that legally counted as a Daytona actually produced by Dodge?  Or is it 499 Daytonas and one prototype conversion?

And does this count the 50 Daytonas produced for Canada?  Or does that bring the total to 550?

Is there any further explanation with "MIA car #s 92 & 115?"  Were they not produced, thus reducing it by two, or is it some other theory?




I have the original list that had 385 cars on it.  Yes, it wasn't complete but that was all we had in the early 90s.
That list has the Canadian cars on it.   (vins start with 414)

Can you provide me a copy of this original C500 list?

Who has a copy of the shipping list for C500?
It would be greatly appreciated. 
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Dragon Slayer
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« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2017, 07:20:15 AM »

Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:

GG Registry only has 114 C500 as of NOV16.
Dodge publicly states 392 in 1972, a clear issue with NASCAR unless it was a factual mistake (mistake to give the real number vice an inflated number for NASCAR purposes).
The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors

No other public knowledge about high numbers published other than clips and pieces.
A Shipping list that is held privately and not released???

Even if Galen list was all non public registry cars, that is only 506, well short of a higher number and GG list is primarily known cars not the opposite.

From Dodge perspective, C500 purpose built car that competes with RT.  Cost more to make, and probably has a much lower profit margin.
Advertised as Hemi only, but not many folks could afford that option, so it shifts to 440/hemi. Still an expensive car, and the RT had better appearance If you had to convince a significant other.
Does not turn out to be as good a race car as expected.  Certainly not the preferred car for drag racing.
So why keep building them instead of the higher demand and better profit margin of the Charger and RT?
Already designing the Daytona to fix the C500 aero issues.

So doesn't make sense that Corporate Dodge would stop short of the 500 number?  Especially when you have confusion with the XX/XS VIN to hide any shortfalls with NASCAR?

Daytona is a winner in NASCAR, so your not going to get caught cheating now, so you make 500 or 50X.  Why not make 600 or 680 of a winner, if you made 680 of a loser (NASCAR) in the C500

As far as survival rate, I would expect the C500 and Daytona to have a high survival rate.  These were expensive purpose built cars.  Folks did not just trash them, if they crashed them or blew a motor.  They were not going to cut them up to fix the Coronet or 383 Charger in my opinion.

Anecdotally, I do not know many folks  Grin...but I do know the original owner of a Daytona, C500, Hemi RT.  Of all the club members in my area, not one has an original RR, Super Bee, Cuda, etc... that they owned originally.  From this list there are other original C500 and Daytona owners.  Speaks to the survivability of these cars.

So where are these other 90 cars to get to 392, let alone 190 to get to 500 or 370 cars to get to 680??  370 cars is an awful lot of missing C500 hemi and 440 Trackpac cars by any standard.

So for all you old timers, what cars where you seeking out in late 70s and the 80 and 90's before the market took off, hence which cars would survive?

I would certainly appreciate the folks that have copies of this list (s) sharing them for the new generation of owners.
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Aero426
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« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2017, 08:51:53 AM »

Who has a copy of the shipping list for C500?
It would be greatly appreciated.  


Galen Govier has the only known copy of the Charger 500 VIN list.    It has not been made public.     Galen said that it does not have as much detailed information as the Daytona shipments list does.    
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Aero426
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« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2017, 10:08:00 AM »

Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:

The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors

305 known Charger 500 cars today?    That sounds artificially high.

Quote
From Dodge perspective, C500 purpose built car that competes with RT.  Cost more to make, and probably has a much lower profit margin.
Advertised as Hemi only, but not many folks could afford that option, so it shifts to 440/hemi. Still an expensive car, and the RT had better appearance If you had to convince a significant other.
Does not turn out to be as good a race car as expected.  Certainly not the preferred car for drag racing.
So why keep building them instead of the higher demand and better profit margin of the Charger and RT?

There was no "keep building them".  All cars had to be completed and verified before they ever raced.
Appearance versus an R/T, cost versus an R/T,  drag racing all were non-issues.  

The prime objective was to get 500 cars built to get the body on the race track at Riverside in January.   


Quote
Already designing the Daytona to fix the C500 aero issues.
The Daytona was not worked on until they realized the Charger 500 wasn't going to cut it.    When the 500 was announced in October '68,  the Talladega and Boss 429 had not been seen on the race track.   The Talladega was CERTAINLY a reaction to Dodge's announcement.  The aerodynamic Ford with the new engine turned out to be a hard combination to beat.  

Quote
So doesn't make sense that Corporate Dodge would stop short of the 500 number?  Especially when you have confusion with the XX/XS VIN to hide any shortfalls with NASCAR?
I do not believe they stopped short.  
Also, XX/XS is data entry.   Nothing to do with number of cars intended to be built.
 

Quote
Daytona is a winner in NASCAR, so your not going to get caught cheating now, so you make 500 or 50X.  Why not make 600 or 680 of a winner, if you made 680 of a loser (NASCAR) in the C500
Because it is hard enough to make 500 cars, get them trucked to Creative in dribs and drabs, converted and shipped out the door.
Like the C500, Daytonas were all built prior to their first race.        
You also have the lead times and high cost of ordering additional small runs of pieces from the various vendors to build more cars to order than needed.  
Remember the #1 priority was "get them on the track".    The problem of selling 500 cars was secondary.  


Quote
As far as survival rate, I would expect the C500 and Daytona to have a high survival rate.  These were expensive purpose built cars.  Folks did not just trash them, if they crashed them or blew a motor.  They were not going to cut them up to fix the Coronet or 383 Charger in my opinion
C500s seem to have a trending survival rate that mirror the Talladega and Spoiler II.   Far less than the Daytona and Superbird which are 60 percent plus.  

Quote
So where are these other 90 cars to get to 392, let alone 190 to get to 500 or 370 cars to get to 680??  370 cars is an awful lot of missing C500 hemi and 440 Trackpac cars by any standard.
Because, muscle cars.     Attrition.

Quote
So for all you old timers, what cars where you seeking out in late 70s and the 80 and 90's before the market took off, hence which cars would survive?
In the late 70's, it was not much different than it is today.    People were seeking out all the Mopar aerodynamic cars, even back then.      The first five years for these cars were the hardest in terms of survival.   Daytonas and Superbirds benefited from the weird factor.    



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« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2017, 01:58:12 PM »

My old friend Galen said back many moons ago that Dec 19 1968 was the last day of production for R/T's destined for the Creative upgrades.
I was told that 248662 was the last one taken from the production line for C500 duties, but that has been changed by modern records.
Still believe my 440ci 4-speed dana car is the last non-hemi C500 built?

First or last or somewhere in between, it don't matter, she is still 'one of 26' built for racing C500's which in my book is kinda RARE!!! 2thumbs

Aerolite
The old info I have (pre Galen days) is L9B48666 is the last 500 built.  440 car.   I don't know the trans.    L9B248665 is a green 440 4 speed car.    J9B248663 is a Hemi car and I don't have *9B248664.     Your car was Scheduled for the last day of production but there is at least 1 more 4 speed car after yours and 2 known 440 cars after yours.   Never the less..... You have one of the last ones for sure.   
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moparstuart
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« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2017, 03:51:41 PM »

My old friend Galen said back many moons ago that Dec 19 1968 was the last day of production for R/T's destined for the Creative upgrades.
I was told that 248662 was the last one taken from the production line for C500 duties, but that has been changed by modern records.
Still believe my 440ci 4-speed dana car is the last non-hemi C500 built?

First or last or somewhere in between, it don't matter, she is still 'one of 26' built for racing C500's which in my book is kinda RARE!!! 2thumbs

Aerolite
The old info I have (pre Galen days) is L9B48666 is the last 500 built.  440 car.   I don't know the trans.    L9B248665 is a green 440 4 speed car.    J9B248663 is a Hemi car and I don't have *9B248664.     Your car was Scheduled for the last day of production but there is at least 1 more 4 speed car after yours and 2 known 440 cars after yours.   Never the less..... You have one of the last ones for sure.   
  666   scared
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odcics2
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« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2017, 03:54:55 PM »

The John Pointer sketch of a Charger with a nose and wing is dated 12-10-68.
It is titled:  "1970 Charger 500".

Perhaps Chrysler saw the drop nosed Fords and started planning an improvement on the freshly released 1969 500?
Or, at least it was a thought by Pointer...

When did the Ford aerocars start selling?
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« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2017, 08:15:43 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on Today at 04:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:

The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors

305 known Charger 500 cars today?    That sounds artificially high.

Looking back at other statements that have been made on this site, GG has said to a member that he has copies of VINs or Build Sheets on 255 cars.

The person I consider to have the most credible, personal, knowledgeable of actual cars (69_500) last said on this site that he has data on 291 cars (as of Jan 2015). This does include a handful of known scrapped cars, so I believe the credible number of cars known, still existing, and could be proven by any one person is around 280+/-.

 
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Aero426
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« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2017, 08:33:57 PM »

The John Pointer sketch of a Charger with a nose and wing is dated 12-10-68.
It is titled:  "1970 Charger 500.

This is true.  But exactly when Pointer shared his "cocktail napkin" doodle with the rest of the staff is open to conjecture.   He did say years later that it was done with the thought, "What if the 500 doesn't cut it?"   Of course,  we also know the initial Daytona concept as tested had no wing. 

By all accounts, they did not know how much trouble they were in until they got to Daytona, and beyond.  The Boss wasn't legal until March, and that became an added problem for the now five year old Hemi.

When I spoke earlier in the day, I deliberately did not mention Pointer's drawing. Simply because the idea existed, does not mean any action was being taken.
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« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2017, 08:39:51 PM »

The John Pointer sketch of a Charger with a nose and wing is dated 12-10-68.
It is titled:  "1970 Charger 500.

This is true.  But exactly when Pointer shared his "cocktail napkin" doodle with the rest of the staff is open to conjecture.   He did say years later that it was done with the thought, "What if the 500 doesn't cut it?"   Of course,  we also know the initial Daytona concept as tested had no wing. 

By all accounts, they did not know how much trouble they were in until they got to Daytona, and beyond.  The Boss wasn't legal until March, and that became an added problem for the now five year old Hemi.

When I spoke earlier in the day, I deliberately did not mention Pointer's drawing. Simply because the idea existed, does not mean any action was being taken.

Makes sense to me.  cheers
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« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2017, 06:11:01 AM »

Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:

The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors

305 known Charger 500 cars today?    That sounds artificially high.

Quote
From Dodge perspective, C500 purpose built car that competes with RT.  Cost more to make, and probably has a much lower profit margin.
Advertised as Hemi only, but not many folks could afford that option, so it shifts to 440/hemi. Still an expensive car, and the RT had better appearance If you had to convince a significant other.
Does not turn out to be as good a race car as expected.  Certainly not the preferred car for drag racing.
So why keep building them instead of the higher demand and better profit margin of the Charger and RT?

There was no "keep building them".  All cars had to be completed and verified before they ever raced.
Appearance versus an R/T, cost versus an R/T,  drag racing all were non-issues.  

The prime objective was to get 500 cars built to get the body on the race track at Riverside in January.   


Quote
Already designing the Daytona to fix the C500 aero issues.
The Daytona was not worked on until they realized the Charger 500 wasn't going to cut it.    When the 500 was announced in October '68,  the Talladega and Boss 429 had not been seen on the race track.   The Talladega was CERTAINLY a reaction to Dodge's announcement.  The aerodynamic Ford with the new engine turned out to be a hard combination to beat.  

Quote
So doesn't make sense that Corporate Dodge would stop short of the 500 number?  Especially when you have confusion with the XX/XS VIN to hide any shortfalls with NASCAR?
I do not believe they stopped short.  
Also, XX/XS is data entry.   Nothing to do with number of cars intended to be built.
 

Quote
Daytona is a winner in NASCAR, so your not going to get caught cheating now, so you make 500 or 50X.  Why not make 600 or 680 of a winner, if you made 680 of a loser (NASCAR) in the C500
Because it is hard enough to make 500 cars, get them trucked to Creative in dribs and drabs, converted and shipped out the door.
Like the C500, Daytonas were all built prior to their first race.        
You also have the lead times and high cost of ordering additional small runs of pieces from the various vendors to build more cars to order than needed.  
Remember the #1 priority was "get them on the track".    The problem of selling 500 cars was secondary.  


Quote
As far as survival rate, I would expect the C500 and Daytona to have a high survival rate.  These were expensive purpose built cars.  Folks did not just trash them, if they crashed them or blew a motor.  They were not going to cut them up to fix the Coronet or 383 Charger in my opinion
C500s seem to have a trending survival rate that mirror the Talladega and Spoiler II.   Far less than the Daytona and Superbird which are 60 percent plus.  

Quote
So where are these other 90 cars to get to 392, let alone 190 to get to 500 or 370 cars to get to 680??  370 cars is an awful lot of missing C500 hemi and 440 Trackpac cars by any standard.
Because, muscle cars.     Attrition.

Quote
So for all you old timers, what cars where you seeking out in late 70s and the 80 and 90's before the market took off, hence which cars would survive?
In the late 70's, it was not much different than it is today.    People were seeking out all the Mopar aerodynamic cars, even back then.      The first five years for these cars were the hardest in terms of survival.   Daytonas and Superbirds benefited from the weird factor.    



The 305 is a guess based on the registry on this forum.  Did not say they exist, and the number is a little high, but they are VINs listed on the registry.

Clearly they had issues making the deadline you state for NASCAR.  How was this verified, is there a record of when this was done?  There are a few KNOWN cars on the list that did not have  scheduled build date unit Mid DEC.  With the XX Weeks it took to make an RT into a C500 over the Christmas holiday, HOW did they make your 7JAN Deadline?  So again seems hard to believe that they made and NASCAR counted 500 C500 before 7Jan.

I have data on at least 2 Sep07 cars that did not make it to a dealer until 19Dec.  Maybe because NASCAR was counting them, or maybe because it took that long for Creative to finish them, and they did not start the build 07Sep.

My point on XX/XS data is that NASCAR could have been presented XS RT as C500 and would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.

The early test cars showed deficiencies with aero, seems reasonable you could go short on production, especially if your losing money on it.

What are the weird factors that benefit Wing cars that do not benefit C500 cars?

Not sure were you views on actual count are, based on what we see we are still way short of this higher number on GG has.
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« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2017, 06:13:57 AM »

Quote
Quote from: Dragon Slayer on Today at 04:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:

The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors

305 known Charger 500 cars today?    That sounds artificially high.

Looking back at other statements that have been made on this site, GG has said to a member that he has copies of VINs or Build Sheets on 255 cars.

The person I consider to have the most credible, personal, knowledgeable of actual cars (69_500) last said on this site that he has data on 291 cars (as of Jan 2015). This does include a handful of known scrapped cars, so I believe the credible number of cars known, still existing, and could be proven by any one person is around 280+/-.

 


Funny that GG only use 114 on his letter to owner as of Nov16. 
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Aero426
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« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2017, 07:13:30 AM »

Shown here is a telegram dated January 23 1969 from NASCAR's Bill France Sr. to Ford Racing Boss Jacque Passino.    What this is likely about, is that Passino is questioning whether Dodge has really built at least 500 examples of the Charger 500.   Bill France is replying and indicating he has reviewed the list of 540 Charger 500 cars, and called various dealers.    He determined that the cars actually were available in the field and went so far as to give a specific dealer and price in nearby Toledo Ohio, along with an offer to purchase the car to prove it.

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Aero426
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« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2017, 07:59:33 AM »


Clearly they had issues making the deadline you state for NASCAR.  How was this verified, is there a record of when this was done?  There are a few KNOWN cars on the list that did not have  scheduled build date unit Mid DEC.  With the XX Weeks it took to make an RT into a C500 over the Christmas holiday, HOW did they make your 7JAN Deadline?  So again seems hard to believe that they made and NASCAR counted 500 C500 before 7Jan.
   I agree it was a crash program, but it was going to get done whatever it took.   It did not take weeks to convert a car.   Looking at the work to be done and the relative low quality final work produced, it took a couple of days to slam out a car.  They were not built with love!      

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I have data on at least 2 Sep07 cars that did not make it to a dealer until 19Dec.  Maybe because NASCAR was counting them, or maybe because it took that long for Creative to finish them, and they did not start the build 07Sep.
Early cars could have been kept around for whatever purpose needed.   Public relations,   a sample reference car.   Who knows?      
There is no evidence that NASCAR ever physically counted the cars in person.   The "list" of cars would have been provided to ACCUS and to NASCAR.     NASCAR could have spot checked the list to make sure the cars existed.  They probably viewed some cars.


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My point on XX/XS data is that NASCAR could have been presented XS RT as C500 and would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.
Too few XS VIN cars to worry about.   The reason for the XX in the VIN would have been explained.    Look, these were not ignorant people.  

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The early test cars showed deficiencies with aero, seems reasonable you could go short on production, especially if your losing money on it.
What deficiencies are you talking about?    The 500 was a LARGE improvement in performance over the '68 Charger in actual on track testing.      
Again, the cars had to be completed before they ever raced.    There were contracts and agreements with the suppliers and Creative to build the cars.   The parts are all run.    There is no savings in saying,  "Whelp, let's build 100 less."   They were all sunk costs.


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What are the weird factors that benefit Wing cars that do not benefit C500 cars?
Without the nose and wing, the 500, Talladega and Cyclone Spoiler look just like a regular car.   Even a non-car person can look at a winged car and see it might be something special.   Charger 500 owners can attest to that guy who comes up at a show and says,  "I used to have a 69 Charger back in the day. But it didn't have headlights like that".      


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5hunert
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« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2017, 08:16:47 AM »


Without the nose and wing, the 500, Talladega and Cyclone Spoiler look just like a regular car.   Even a non-car person can look at a winged car and see it might be something special.   Charger 500 owners can attest to that guy who comes up at a show and says,  "I used to have a 69 Charger back in the day. But it didn't have headlights like that".      


Amen to that.  90% of the people who approach me at an all-make car show have no ideal what a Charger 500 is.  Observant ones ask why it looks like a '68 from the front and a '69 from the rear.

Generally when someone asks if its real, they are wondering if its a real General Lee because of the orange paint job.
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Troy
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« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2017, 08:39:05 AM »

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Quote from: Dragon Slayer on Today at 04:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:

The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors

305 known Charger 500 cars today?    That sounds artificially high.

Looking back at other statements that have been made on this site, GG has said to a member that he has copies of VINs or Build Sheets on 255 cars.

The person I consider to have the most credible, personal, knowledgeable of actual cars (69_500) last said on this site that he has data on 291 cars (as of Jan 2015). This does include a handful of known scrapped cars, so I believe the credible number of cars known, still existing, and could be proven by any one person is around 280+/-.

 


Funny that GG only use 114 on his letter to owner as of Nov16. 
I have no knowledge on the subject how many were made but need to clarify this point. When Galen puts a number in a vehicle inspection report it says something like "of 114 known to exist". This means the number he, personally, has seen/inspected. It does NOT mean total known to exist by everyone ever. It's a very important distinction! He may have "knowledge" of over 200 cars through stories or browsing the internet but he's not going to stake his reputation that they are verified. That's why there are discrepancies when someone claims their car is "1 of 3" - and leave off the "known to exist" so it becomes "known to be produced". It certainly muddies things up though because the next 500 he sees will be "of 115 known to exist" and that owner will stick it on a show board and brag about it to anyone who will listen.

Troy
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Sarcasm detector, that's a real good invention.
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