Neon,Corolla, Civic

[Todd Wilson]

After 17 1/2 years at my job in town they decided to do away with it so I am commuting again 100 miles a day. The 3/4 Cummins Dodge as good as it gets for mpg is a tad to expensive to keep driving all the time. I have been looking at cheep cars on craigslist locally here. Looking for a 2000$-3000$ car with 100,000 to 150,000 miles on it. 2000 to 2005 in years. Looking for maximum mpg and price. My goal is to simply run the vehicle until it quits.

Honda Civics seem to command a little higher price but it seems nice civics are hard to find. Most are riced out or have well over 200,000 miles on them. 

Toyota Corolla's seem to be cheaper and more plentiful on the CL.

Dodge and Plymouth Neon's are very hard to find. I have found a 2003 in almost new shape with 129,000 miles and a 2005 with 140,000 that's it nice shape.


I do have seat time in the Neon and the Corolla. We bought a new 2000 Neon that was a great car in every way but it got totaled early in its life in a wreck. My grandma has a 2003 Corolla I have driven on the highway for hundreds of miles a few times. I have trouble getting in and out of it but it seems to be ok once I am in it. 

I am aware of the Neon automatic transmission cooler leak causing antifreeze to go into the tranny and wasting it.  But info I get is these cars are good at getting high miles. 2nd gen Neons that is.


Every high mileage Toyota I have been around seems to have a tick in the engine as its idling that drives me crazy as it sounds to me like it has an engine problem.


So I am looking for real world info on these cars. The most miles everyone has got and the problems that come up with the 3 cars.


Todd

[71charger_fan]

I've got 110,000 on my '04 Neon R/T. The only things that have needed to be replaced were the lower control arm bushings, struts, and muffler (not counting obvious things like battery, plugs, etc). I did replace the timing belt and water pump as preventative maintenance. The sunroof did break, but it was just a pin that worked its way out. It was an easy fix. I had an employer-provided '12 Civic for a few years. The trunk was more usable in the Civic, but I found the '04 Neon to be a better car in pretty much every other way. I've ridden in a few Corollas, but haven't actually driven one since the late '80s. The Ford Focus is plentiful and seems to be a pretty good car and available much newer than any Neon.

[Mike DC]

  
Late-90s-early-2000s Corollas.  There are pretty dang reliable and parts are cheap.  The 4-banger motor is pretty easy to work on for a modern car too.  It's not too much of a Tetris game under the hood.    


Neons can run a long time too.  But I would lay money on a Corolla's body to hold up better.  Paint, interior, electricals, etc.  


I agree about Civics of that era.  They are good cars in theory but ricers have spoiled them for the rest of us.  They mess up their own Civics, and they bid up the prices too high for the Civics they haven't gotten to yet.  

 

[Aero426]

I'd run a Neon if I could find a good one.  As mentioned, not that easy anymore.   Corolla sounds like a good bet for run it til the wheels fall off.  And they probably won't fall off. 

[JR]

Corolla. No question.

Although i would love to suggest the Mazda 3 as is the most fun to drive in this segment, the durability and quality is lacking compared to the Corolla.

And you can find clean Corollas for 3k or less all day.

I drive 500 miles a week for work, and my daily beater is a 97 Celica with the 2.2/5 speed combo with 200k plus miles. The engine is from the Camry, but quality wise it's an equivalent vehicle to the Corolla. I paid 1700 bucks for it, runs great with cold air, and have driven it for two years now with no issue beyond normal maintenance.I would drive it anywhere. Great mpg and reliability means the car has practically paid for itself.

With a $3000 budget you should be able to find a really clean early 2000s Corolla. They made millions of them. There was even a wagon version up until the late 90s.

[Troy]

I have (and had) a bunch of Toyotas so I'm probably biased. My current Tacoma (1998) has 260k on it, my 1993 pickup has 150k, my dad's 2004 Corrolla has almost 200k and all they've done is fixed an airbag sensor, my step dad has 270k on his 1995 Camry and he's replaced the brake pads twice and the tailpipe. The reason you can't find any Neons is they're broken and crushed. Every one I have been in has been a POS - but some people say they are great so I must pick all the wrong ones. The Civics are better looking than the Corolla and Camry and the kids love them so prices will be higher - but they're easy/cheap to fix if they ever break. Mostly they don't break. You could try for an Accord of the same years as it will be a bit bigger and still get decent mileage.

Troy

[69bronzeT5]

I loved my 2000 Chrysler Neon LX. I owned it for 2 years and put 16,000+ miles on it. I paid $500 for it. It was fantastic. I used it for a winter beater. I ended up doing the water pump and timing belt (water pump seized but it was right around the replacement interval), both rear calipers and the accessory belt. It was all cheap though. Super cheap on gas. Only sold it because I bought my new Ram. Kind of wish I kept it for a daily driver though.

[alfaitalia]

Now would I like to drive a Neon, Civic or Corolla.....?.....Hmmmm.....Kinda like being asked if I want the needle that's about to be poked in my eye to be hot, cold or frozen.....not the best of choices . There must be something out there with good mpg and reliability that means you wont have to drive around with a paper bag on your head with holes cuts for you eyes so no one recognises you! How about a TDI Golf or 1 series BMW diesel....both have a load more cred....just as good mpg.....been around long enough to be cheap.....and folks wont laugh and point!   

[Todd Wilson]

Thanks for all the info out there.   I am starting to look at Nissan Altima's.  I have several friends with them and they are nice cars and there seems to be some in the 10-12 yr old range for sale in my price range.  The Kia Optima was suggested also.  My mom drove a rental Kia to visit one time and loved it and I drove the car also and it was nice.  It seems if you can find a good Neon then you are good but bad ones are out there a lot. A friend who has a used lot says every Neon he sees at the auctions all smell of antifreeze when you open the hoods to check.    Overall the Corolla seems to be best best bang for the buck as far as mpg and running the most miles with cheap repairs if needed. The one I was looking at is sold. 120l for 2000$. Snooze u looze!

I have looked around here for Volkswagons and they are hard to find. And occasional old Diesel Rabbit which is cool but I don't know if I want to spend 100 miles a day in one when newer more safer vehicles are out there. Also worried about how it starts in the dead of winter after sitting 10-12 hours at work.


Todd

[moparstuart]

Thanks for all the info out there.   I am starting to look at Nissan Altima's.  I have several friends with them and they are nice cars and there seems to be some in the 10-12 yr old range for sale in my price range.  The Kia Optima was suggested also.  My mom drove a rental Kia to visit one time and loved it and I drove the car also and it was nice.  It seems if you can find a good Neon then you are good but bad ones are out there a lot. A friend who has a used lot says every Neon he sees at the auctions all smell of antifreeze when you open the hoods to check.    Overall the Corolla seems to be best best bang for the buck as far as mpg and running the most miles with cheap repairs if needed. The one I was looking at is sold. 120l for 2000$. Snooze u looze!

I have looked around here for Volkswagons and they are hard to find. And occasional old Diesel Rabbit which is cool but I don't know if I want to spend 100 miles a day in one when newer more safer vehicles are out there. Also worried about how it starts in the dead of winter after sitting 10-12 hours at work.


Todd

stay away from nissans  horrible drive train all around  , junk  sell that stuff all day  its bad 

[Todd Wilson]

With reference to Toyota's at what mileage would you be scared to buy one?  I am seeing a lot in the 160k -190k range and the cars both Corolla and Camry look to be in good shape. Drivers seats are not even torn up from that many miles.    I don't know what to think as that many miles could mean they have been taken care of and in good shape or they got something wrong with them! HA! Is the tick you hear when they idle normal?

Todd

[JR]

X2 on avoiding Nissans. The quality isnt there. Especially long term.

As far as how many miles is too many, its really a case by case basis. I shop the owner as much as the vehicle. If they give me the impression that the car was never maintained, or they didnt have the cash to take care of the vehicle, I walk away. Little things like mismatched tires, excessively stained carpet, broken buttons that would be cheap and easy to fix are good tells that the car was neglected.

Personally,  when looking for a cheap beater, I buy the simplest car I can find. Manual transmission,  4 cylinder, manual adjusting seats etc. means theres less to go wrong. As a rule of thumb,  a 200k mile 4 cylinder manual is usually more reliable than a 200k mile v6/auto.

As far as VWs, dont bother. They will nickel and dime you to death. Especially the diesels. The basic 2.5 liter 5 cylinder in the jetta is mostly reliable, but the rest of the car will disintegrate around the drivetrain. Volkswagen=all the hassle and pain of German car ownership, none of the fun.

Also, another suggestion, and kind of oddball, is a first gen Scion xB.



I know the looks are polarizing, but, they have a rock solid reputation for reliability,  offer a TON of interior space, a high seating position so you dont have to climb in and out of it, great visibility,  and as a bonus, actually have a bit of personality to drivie. As a bonus, they were typically bought by enthusiastic owners when new, so its easy to find one that has been maintained and well taken care of.

And did I mention the ton of room in them?



The only real negative is the cringey "Scion" badging. But they were sold as Toyotas in Japan, so swapping on Toyota badging is easy if you want.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Im in same boat as you Todd.

have a 02 2500 CCSB 4x4 sport with a 6 speed. Its good on fuel as you said being diesel but my beaters are toyota.

We had a 2010 corolla 5 speed 1.8L. ought with 38000 km and in 3 years put 80000 km on it. Only repair was brake pads in front and rotors turned. Still had all original steering and suspension parts and was tight. That says alot as our paved roads here in quebec are generally as bad or worse than dirt roads in the rest of the country.

Bought a 2001 echo 5 speed for me to beat to work. drove it 2 years 30000km put $250 in brakes and a tie rod and ball joint. Bought it for $1700 sold it for $800 yesterday. All in with repairs cost me $600 a year.

I replaced it with a 2004 toyota matrix 5 speed 1.8L low kms. bought for $2000. Should last me 5 years atleast.

early 2000s toyota went to a timing chain. Get a timing chain engine and good to go. Not that the older ones were bad as they were non contact engines. But this way no timing belt jobs.

The matrix rides a fair bit better than the corolla/echo/yaris. They tend to get blown around a bit on the road. The matrix is solid and your a car guy som option of folding down seats makes an impressive cargo space.


Ticking i find usually is engines that didnt run the specified viscosity engine oil. Seems these small motors you really need to adhere to whats recommended as far as viscosity.

[moparstuart]

With reference to Toyota's at what mileage would you be scared to buy one?  I am seeing a lot in the 160k -190k range and the cars both Corolla and Camry look to be in good shape. Drivers seats are not even torn up from that many miles.    I don't know what to think as that many miles could mean they have been taken care of and in good shape or they got something wrong with them! HA! Is the tick you hear when they idle normal?

Todd

stay away from  97-01 camry with the 4 cy   , the 2.2 have the same problem chrysler 2.7 and 3.7 and 4.7 have  very small oil galleys and they sludge / clog up super easy  , 3.0 tho are rock solid 

[Old Moparz]

Just a couple of months ago a coworker of my wife spotted a 2009 Suzuki SX4 hatchback on a facebook classified ad for $2800. My daughter has her permit & will be driving soon, so we had been looking on & off for a decent 1st car for her. We looked at this car, drove it & was able to get it for $2400. It has 127k miles on it but the Suzukis that a couple of people I know have had ran them up to & above 200K.

There is a lot of room for the passengers for a tiny car. Yeah, Suzuki stopped selling in the US a few years ago but if all you plan on doing is driving it until you can't maybe you can consider one. $2400 for a 2009 is pretty cheap in my area.

By the way, we haven't had the car long enough to really say how good or bad it will be. I think it's only on the 2nd tank of gas since we've had it, but everything works. It's automatic but I noticed that the shift lever doesn't want to go into low. It rides & shifts perfect so I am thinking it might be an adjustment or a cable & not a transmission issue.

[Aero426]

I bought an 07 Focus sedan with a 5-spd at the tail end of 2014.  110k on it and now just crossed 150k.  Car has been bullet proof.  The standard 2.0 engine uses a timing chain.  Mine was a military owned car from the west coast. So the super clean underside sold me.   I paid 4K at the time (less than an import would cost) and am very happy.  Mileage is slight less than my old Neon, but averages 31 on hwy.  A little lower in town.  If there are downsides mechanically, I've not experienced them.

[Mopar Nut]

New Dodge Dart.

[Old Moparz]

Near you Todd?

2011 Suzuki SX4 - $2695

https://wichita.craigslist.org/cto/d/2011-suzuki-sx4/6284596101.html

[Aero426]

New Dodge Dart.

Has the resale fallen like a rock to the point where you can buy one that cheap?  

I think it is too new and will not fall into the budget.   

[Todd Wilson]

Near you Todd?

2011 Suzuki SX4 - $2695

https://wichita.craigslist.org/cto/d/2011-suzuki-sx4/6284596101.html

Yeah the MPG isn't as good as I like.  Suzuki's from reading seem to not get a good review and have problems. Price is right for sure!

Todd

[Todd Wilson]

New Dodge Dart.

Has the resale fallen like a rock to the point where you can buy one that cheap?  

I think it is too new and will not fall into the budget.   

Yeah new is out of the question right now.  I did find a Dart a few years old for 5grand with low miles and in good shape but it had no AC.......

Todd

[Todd Wilson]

All the Corolla's I was eye balling are sold.  A few Accords also. You got to be fast when you find a good one.   I am going to look at this Neon tonight...........


https://wichita.craigslist.org/cto/d/2003-dodge-neon-sxt/6287507285.html


Todd

[Old Moparz]

Near you Todd?

2011 Suzuki SX4 - $2695

https://wichita.craigslist.org/cto/d/2011-suzuki-sx4/6284596101.html

Yeah the MPG isn't as good as I like.  Suzuki's from reading seem to not get a good review and have problems. Price is right for sure!

Todd

It's very practical with 98.5 cubic feet of interior volume, the SX4 wagon has ample interior space. If a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon is 16"x 16"x 24"(3.5378 cf) then you can get approximately 27.84216 cases of beer in that thing.  

[moparstuart]

All the Corolla's I was eye balling are sold.  A few Accords also. You got to be fast when you find a good one.   I am going to look at this Neon tonight...........


https://wichita.craigslist.org/cto/d/2003-dodge-neon-sxt/6287507285.html


Todd

you wont lose it in the dark 

[Todd Wilson]

All the Corolla's I was eye balling are sold.  A few Accords also. You got to be fast when you find a good one.   I am going to look at this Neon tonight...........


https://wichita.craigslist.org/cto/d/2003-dodge-neon-sxt/6287507285.html


Todd

you wont lose it in the dark 

It is Neon!


Todd

[Mike DC]

https://wichita.craigslist.org/cto/d/2003-dodge-neon-sxt/6287507285.html


"Power windows in front, manual in back"? 

Did the factory build that? 

[moparstuart]

https://wichita.craigslist.org/cto/d/2003-dodge-neon-sxt/6287507285.html


"Power windows in front, manual in back"? 

Did the factory build that? 

yes  thats normal on those 

[alfaitalia]

Funny how different countries see cars in different ways. Over here the Dodge Neon (sold as a Chrysler Neon here) never sold in any numbers...I've only seen a few. It was slated for poor reliability (if my Jeep is anything to go by I can believe it!), cheap and poorly built interiors and really soft , wallowy handling which combined with near zero steering feel from over assisted steering does not make you feel at one with the car. Good news it if you want one sellers here can't give them away so they are really cheap.I guess US spec ones may be better or at least different and historically US buyers have always liked cars softer riding than us European drivers.

[Aero426]

Funny how different countries see cars in different ways. Over here the Dodge Neon (sold as a Chrysler Neon here) never sold in any numbers...I've only seen a few. It was slated for poor reliability (if my Jeep is anything to go by I can believe it!), cheap and poorly built interiors and really soft , wallowy handling which combined with near zero steering feel from over assisted steering does not make you feel at one with the car. Good news it if you want one sellers here can't give them away so they are really cheap.I guess US spec ones may be better or at least different and historically US buyers have always liked cars softer riding than us European drivers.

They are not "great cars" from a drivers standpoint.   They were basic transportation and not unpleasant to drive.    I had a '96 Neon purchased for $200 with a bad engine.    I was in it for $1700 with a new to me engine installed.  Ran it for many years.    I got rusty to the point where you would leave it by the side of the road when something broke.  Eventually, the 8 year old timing belt installed with the replacement engine killed it in 2014.      Odo was broke, but I am sure it was over 200k miles.   I have no regrats (sic).

The gen 2 Neons were a step up.    But as mentioned, because of age and bottom feeder users, it is not that easy to find a clean one.   

[Todd Wilson]

We had a 2000 Neon and it was a great car. Sadly it got totaled in a wreck.


I went to see the yellow Neon tonight. The car was in great shape. The interior was near perfect. Engine started right up and idled smooth and ran great. Steering was tight but it was out of alignment a little bit.  Nothing bad and the tires were in great shape. Transmission shifted fine. AC was COLD and the cruise worked and was smooth. What scared me and I noticed right away.(50 feet out in the street) was a vibration in the drive train.  It was a constant light vibration that was there all the time. Didn't change with speed. He insisted I drive it around and onto the interstate which was close by. It ran right up to 65mph and moved ok down the road. Brakes were good. It just had that vibration. I decided to pass on it for now and will keep looking. Its a shame because the rest of the car was in very nice shape.


Todd

[Cncguy]

I have an 09 corolla for my 1hr commute to work. Will probably upgrade to civic when the wheels fall off.

[charger_fan_4ever]

I have an 09 corolla for my 1hr commute to work. Will probably downgrade to civic when the wheels fall off.

There fixed it for you lol

[alfaitalia]

Lol.....joking apart....don't think there is much doubt that a Honda is a better engineered car than a Toyota.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Lol.....joking apart....don't think there is much doubt that a Honda is a better engineered car than a Toyota.

Not sure about the new Hondas but those in the early 2000s like the op mentioned were all timing belts vs chains on the Toyotas, so i stand by my statement.lots of that era were oil burners too.

[alfaitalia]

Valid opinion i guess....but I would never choose one car over another just on whether it had chain or belt driven cams. Just change the belt at the right times and you should have no issues. It's not that hard to DIY it for most of us Even chains snap sometimes...just ask any Nissan Navara owner.....I snapped two in 70,000 miles...will never have another.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Valid opinion i guess....but I would never choose one car over another just on whether it had chain or belt driven cams. Just change the belt at the right times and you should have no issues. It's not that hard to DIY it for most of us Even chains snap sometimes...just ask any Nissan Navara owner.....I snapped two in 70,000 miles...will never have another.

Im scared from VW contact engines.

Had a diesel did the t belt job(rollers,idler,water pump) to the tune of $650. Supposedly good for 160k km at 100k broke and took out the head and scored a cylinder. Nomore belts for me lol.

For me a daily commuter needs to be stupid simple and reliable that basically just needs the oil and filters changed. Aslong as doesnt ride like a buckboard im good. I prefer no options other than A/C thats a must for me. So far toyota hasnt let me down. Put about 150,000 km on the 3 toyotas in 3 years. Only thing was oil changed and brakes.

[gtx6970]

I can buy a clean Neon with half the miles of a similar condition Toyota or Honda. Usually for same or less money to .

Plus I prefer to buy cars I can work on. And can fix pretty much anything on a Neon in my sleep . A Honda or Toyota is ...Im sure I could fix and but requires.

I bought this rust free 2004 Neon SXT about 18 months ago. 120K miles, bright yellow and sunroof car.  Trans was out on it . I gave 1200 for it( FAR to much if you cant fix it  yourself ) The car is absolutely spotless inside and out is why I paid what I did. Fixed it and gave to my daughter as her first car. She LOVES it

Ive bought and sold maybe a half dozen Neons the past 2 years. All needing various repairs from trans work to just a good cleaning Haven't paid more than $900 for anyone single one, and havent sold one for under $2400 yet.

[Todd Wilson]

I can buy a clean Neon with half the miles of a similar condition Toyota or Honda. Usually for same or less money to .

Plus I prefer to buy cars I can work on. And can fix pretty much anything on a Neon in my sleep . A Honda or Toyota is ...Im sure I could fix and but requires.

I bought this rust free 2004 Neon SXT about 18 months ago. 120K miles, bright yellow and sunroof car.  Trans was out on it . I gave 1200 for it( FAR to much if you cant fix it  yourself ) The car is absolutely spotless inside and out is why I paid what I did. Fixed it and gave to my daughter as her first car. She LOVES it

Ive bought and sold maybe a half dozen Neons the past 2 years. All needing various repairs from trans work to just a good cleaning Haven't paid more than $900 for anyone single one, and havent sold one for under $2400 yet.

What were the common problems you had to fix?  Did most of the cars share the same problems? Oklahoma on CL seems to have many Neons and Honda/Toyota cars for the same prices in Kansas here for half the miles.  Thinking of taking a day trip to okie land one of these days to look at several.  Still like the Neon overall compared to the others.


Todd

[gtx6970]

Ive bought and sold maybe a half dozen Neons the past 2 years. All needing various repairs from trans work to just a good cleaning Haven't paid more than $900 for anyone single one, and havent sold one for under $2400 yet.

What were the common problems you had to fix?  Did most of the cars share the same problems? Oklahoma on CL seems to have many Neons and Honda/Toyota cars for the same prices in Kansas here for half the miles.  Thinking of taking a day trip to okie land one of these days to look at several.  Still like the Neon overall compared to the others.


Todd

[/quote]

Transmission issues. One was a simple solenoid pack issue,  a few others required transmission overhauls.  A couple were due to front  pump failures and 3 others  from radiator failures ( very common issue on Neons )
On average I'll put maybe $400 to $450 in a complete trans overhaul .

Bought a spotless silver  2003 with 105K miles, that had  broken timing belt + bent intake valves  for $300. Pulled the head and lapped in 4 new intake valves , installed a new water pump - timing belt set , spark plugs and wire set and she was purring like a kitten. All in I was well under $1000. sold it in 3 days for $2800.

My average profit margin is about $1000 , a few I made closer to $1500 . 
Keep in mind. I'm a former  Mopar dealership trans tech. So I actually seek out cars with trans issues . Best return on investment for me . This method may not  be for everyone.

One thing I do not buy ,,,is rust. Anything else I can fix .

[gtx6970]

Something else to keep in mind. Dont compare a Neon to a Camry or Accord.  The Neon will lose every time.

To me the Neons biggest fault is gas pedal position. Its not comfortable to me for long distance driving. BUT... I dont drive it everyday either.
My daughter on the other hand loves her yellow one 100%

[Todd Wilson]

Thanks for the info GTX!    Whats everyone think about a 1995 Ford Escort 4 banger with a 5 speed.  I found one for cheep and in good shape with 118xxx miles on it. I know a guy who commuted in 2 different escorts like this with autos and had 300k+ in one and the other was approaching 500k before he sold them. Can't believe I said the F word but this car is cheep compared to all the others and I am now not finding much in the Honda,Toyota,Neon field...........


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

Well just an update. I had given up on a little car as they for the most part were over priced for the miles. I was working on an Accord deal that turned into a scam after multiple txt messages and even an email with tons of extra pictures.   Last night about 7:30 I checked Craigslist and seen a 2002 Corolla here in town. Called the dude up and went over to check it out. An hour later it was in my driveway.  Its got a few battle scars but has a great interior and 124k miles with a 5 speed manual. AC and cruise work. Very nice car except for the slight  wrinkles on the drivers side.  It almost missed a deer and that's what caused the wrinkles.  It an LE and supposed to be able to get 41mpg on the highway.   I plan to run this car til it quits commuting so I am not real concerned with the wrinkles as its gonna get beat on the drive anyways.







Todd

[Bob]

Good choice! It's just a baby with those miles.

[moparstuart]

good score 

[JR]

Congrats, that car is just getting broken in at 124k. Nice find.

Also, if you want to read an interesting article about the durability of these Corollas, here are two about used ones being shipped over to Afghanistan. It's common to see them driven for 300k or more miles over there. 90 percent of the vehicles registered there are Toyota Corollas.

https://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/afghanistan-gives-antiquated-toyotas-a-new-life-1.356184#.WduEeyMpCBY

(And a less detailed write up on the same subject.)

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/07/best-selling-cars-around-the-globe-toyota-corollas-come-to-afghanistan-to-die/

It's an interesting read.