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Author Topic: Daytona Fender scoops  (Read 978 times)
winghawg
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« on: December 24, 2017, 10:35:23 AM »

Hi all does any body have the dimensions for the Daytons fender scoops.Thanks in advance
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alfaitalia
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2017, 11:14:41 AM »

No idea....but I what World is a vent that faces backwards a "scoop"....it's a vent to release pressure ( or heat if on the hood) if it doesn't face forwards to scoop the air. Same story with the 70 door "scoops"....which of course are neither scoops nor vents...just cosmetic trim! It must be a Mopar thing...like many others' Rant over...carry on!
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odcics2
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2017, 11:23:46 AM »

No idea....but I what World is a vent that faces backwards a "scoop"....it's a vent to release pressure ( or heat if on the hood) if it doesn't face forwards to scoop the air. Same story with the 70 door "scoops"....which of course are neither scoops nor vents...just cosmetic trim! It must be a Mopar thing...like many others' Rant over...carry on!

Here's a great read on "scoops", also known as "exhausters". This info has been on aerowarriors.com since 2009!

http://aerowarriors.com/tsots.html

 coolgleamA 2thumbs
 cheers
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DAY CLONA
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2017, 12:15:48 PM »

Hi all does any body have the dimensions for the Daytons fender scoops.Thanks in advance



I'll assume you mean "location/positioning"?... if so they are located on the fender using the BACK EDGE of the hood as a reference point, to the LOWER REAR/BACK EDGE of the scoop, 16 inches +/- 1/4", and they are centered on the fender(s) side to side, there is a driver's and passenger's side
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alfaitalia
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2017, 12:32:59 PM »

No idea....but I what World is a vent that faces backwards a "scoop"....it's a vent to release pressure ( or heat if on the hood) if it doesn't face forwards to scoop the air. Same story with the 70 door "scoops"....which of course are neither scoops nor vents...just cosmetic trim! It must be a Mopar thing...like many others' Rant over...carry on!

Here's a great read on "scoops", also known as "exhausters". This info has been on aerowarriors.com since 2009!

http://aerowarriors.com/tsots.html

 coolgleamA 2thumbs
 cheers

Thanks for that..interesting read..funny in places too. Not seen it before....not being an aero car owner, it's not a site I visit much. I'm of the view (as some in that feature) that they were put there mainly for looks....I would like to see the proof of a 3% reduction in drag. I would think that any reduction in drag by reduction in under fender pressure would be offset by the exhausters sticking up into the airflow over the fenders and the air escaping from the exhausters disturbing the smooth flow of air over over the windscreen.
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odcics2
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2017, 02:35:59 PM »

Did you see the actual Chrysler Engineering document?
That's the proof!   yesnod


* proof -original Chrysler Engineering document.gif (124.78 KB, 776x595 - viewed 417 times.)
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A383Wing
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2017, 05:14:22 PM »

circled in red


* proof -original Chrysler Engineering document3%less.jpg (65.52 KB, 518x397 - viewed 395 times.)
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alfaitalia
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2017, 05:24:41 PM »

I have seen that..but having worked in the car/motorcycle industry on and off for about 25 years I've seen a lot of marketing bs like that. Where are the air flow charts...how was it measured? I'm not saying it did not have an affect but writing it by hand on a piece of paper does not seem particularly convincing...lol! Not to mention there are several ways of measuring drag.....and car makers tend to pic the one that proves their point best.
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odcics2
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2017, 05:59:07 PM »

I have seen that..but having worked in the car/motorcycle industry on and off for about 25 years I've seen a lot of marketing bs like that. Where are the air flow charts...how was it measured? I'm not saying it did not have an affect but writing it by hand on a piece of paper does not seem particularly convincing...lol! Not to mention there are several ways of measuring drag.....and car makers tend to pic the one that proves their point best.

Marketing BS?   You are joking, right?   That document surfaced decades after the cars were out.  I don't think 'marketing' was on their minds, just winning races.   A trip to the aerowarriors.com site will help you. See the various papers in the "Documents" section.  There are charts and graphs galore!

Check out the "E" and "F" series papers, or the SAE paper on the Daytona.  More good reading material.   coolgleamA
 cheers

   
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A383Wing
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2017, 07:36:46 PM »

Somehow I knew when he was shown documentation that he would not believe it...
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rob-dirt
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« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2017, 01:41:38 AM »

Who makes a nice repo Fender scoop - for a daytona that you would recommend buying  popcrn
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alfaitalia
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« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2017, 03:21:44 AM »

I have seen that..but having worked in the car/motorcycle industry on and off for about 25 years I've seen a lot of marketing bs like that. Where are the air flow charts...how was it measured? I'm not saying it did not have an affect but writing it by hand on a piece of paper does not seem particularly convincing...lol! Not to mention there are several ways of measuring drag.....and car makers tend to pic the one that proves their point best.

Marketing BS?   You are joking, right?   That document surfaced decades after the cars were out.  I don't think 'marketing' was on their minds, just winning races.   A trip to the aerowarriors.com site will help you. See the various papers in the "Documents" section.  There are charts and graphs galore!

Check out the "E" and "F" series papers, or the SAE paper on the Daytona.  More good reading material.   coolgleamA
 cheers

    

Fair enough....if it really helps and really works I believe it. I like evidence...and you have provided it. I have no proof that it didn't reduce drag........Funny how its not been done on other cars since though.....AFAIK. I'm just a naturally suspicious person ...especially when it comes to claims by big companies.


EXAMPLE;

Back in 1992 Honda launched the new FireBlade 900 RR motorcycle. Its had a fairing full of small holes. Honda produced air flow and track time charts and could "PROVE" that it improved airflow and more importantly increase cornering speed. The next generation lost the holes. A few years later they admitted it was a combination or a marketing ploy to sell more bikes to the gullible (I owned two of these...so there you go!) and a little physiological warfare for the tracks to worry the opposition that they had an advantage. It happens all the time......so be careful what you believe !  
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winghawg
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« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2017, 01:54:53 PM »

What I need are the length width height of the Daytona scoop
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C5X DAYTONA
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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 12:01:25 AM »

I have seen that..but having worked in the car/motorcycle industry on and off for about 25 years I've seen a lot of marketing bs like that. Where are the air flow charts...how was it measured? I'm not saying it did not have an affect but writing it by hand on a piece of paper does not seem particularly convincing...lol! Not to mention there are several ways of measuring drag.....and car makers tend to pic the one that proves their point best.

Marketing BS?   You are joking, right?   That document surfaced decades after the cars were out.  I don't think 'marketing' was on their minds, just winning races.   A trip to the aerowarriors.com site will help you. See the various papers in the "Documents" section.  There are charts and graphs galore!

Check out the "E" and "F" series papers, or the SAE paper on the Daytona.  More good reading material.   coolgleamA
 cheers

    
Maybe not "marketing BS" but that note insinuating it was tested is BS.   It was never tested.   If it was the 3/8s car would of had holes in the fender at one point as it is the ONLY car they tested prior to production..    I've inspected the car and there is ZERO evidence on the underside or the top side of the fenders of any holes or hole repairs..    Even George Wallace said they were never tested..     There is NOT 1 document showing anything remote to a extractor test...  That paper was probably made up to fool NASCAR into thinking it WAS an extractor...    Like George said..   We didn't know what to call it.  I wanted room up top after seeing Pointer's first "the ugly" drawing and Pointer designed a vent.    When done it looked like an extractor so we called it an extractor...  That sure was funny to George that everyone really thought it was an extractor......   

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odcics2
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2017, 07:25:16 AM »

Full size testing at Chelsea.  Not everything was tested in 3/8 scale.  1:1 is more accurate.   

Back to the original question - scoop size.  I can't answer because mine were molded in to be longer.
They are also 3/8" taller to let more air out.   

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C5X DAYTONA
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« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2017, 01:45:22 PM »

Your answer is a picture "low Speed test car" parked on the proving grounds?  LOL..   No aero numbers were EVER pulled from that "low speed" test car in that configuration.  Of course 1-1 test would be more accurate but they NEVER tested a full size Daytona in a tunnel prior to production.    3/8 scale text numbers were very close so that is why ALL wind tunnel texting was done with the 3/8 car.    Can't pull any drag numbers from running a car on a track..  Come on Greg..  I know you KNOW that...     And those extractors on that car were only there because George told John to put one over the right front..    George was very clear on this...  George said "John worked feverishly on those to make sure they didn't hurt the aero..      George wanted clearance and John designed an extractor..   But as far at the 3%.   NEVER.   With that small grill,  the front of the fenders pushed out and the tire rotating up high in the fender..  Not much is going on up there.  And definitely nothing measureable..                Somebody have a template of the holes to post for the original topic?  lol
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odcics2
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2017, 02:22:33 PM »

Really Sean?  You never heard of drag coast down studies?
The rear wing drag numbers were done on the 88, at the Huntsville-Madison Airport by running coast down studies.
Change the angle, make a run, measure time to coast down. Stop, change the angle, repeat test.  
Keep doing it to get all the numbers and then repeat to make sure they are right.
They did and still do, drag coast down studies on the high banked oval at Chelsea.
 
Heck, I drove coast down studies myself when I was at the Arizona Proving grounds high speed oval in the early 90s, on a road trip.

In any event, have a Happy New Year, buddy!   2thumbs

 cheers
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NHCharger
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« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2017, 06:48:35 PM »

What I need are the length width height of the Daytona scoop
If you can wait a bit I could trace mine on some construction paper and send them to you. They are specifically made for each fender so they have a unique shape. would be hard to just give you some measurements. I bought mine from Janak so they are fiberglass and needed some massaging to fit properly.
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C5X DAYTONA
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 02:14:06 AM »

Yes I know the study but this was not the case with the extractor.  As with studies like that.  All temperatures, wind, humidity etc play such a factor that results are never "exact."     They NEVER tested the extractor prior to production.   Any test results on the completed car were after the fact.   Were talking about the extractor and how/why it's there.    Not what it did if anything after the fact..     The only reason the extractor is there is Wallace wanted a little extra clearance and Pointer made an extractor.  "That was his expertise" Wallace stated....   Even if that thing gave the car 100 more HP..  That is NOT why it was installed....  Wallace said "When I saw Pointer's drawing that he showed McCurry I already knew we were close to the top of the fender and the added downforce that he could see from the drawing that it was going to make and that we could modify the fender top with the new model...  I told Pointer to make room up there."   Anyhoot..   Hope all is well with you.  Thank You for the wishes..  All going great here.  Hope all is going well with you and Happy New Years to you and your family...   BTW  I still have a ton of shots for you if you don't have of DC-93 while on a lift from under the car and all over it..     Can't wait to see your car done.   Fantastic piece of History and I can't think of anyone better to be the keeper of it..         
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winghawg
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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2017, 08:21:56 AM »

Thanks NHcharger that would be great I sent you a PM
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Redbird
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2017, 12:06:07 PM »

Odcics2, thank you for all the information you share. It is really insightful.

CX5, thanks for the rant reminding anyone that is close by that you are the smartest and best one here.
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moparstuart
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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2017, 01:50:10 PM »

Odcics2, thank you for all the information you share. It is really insightful.

CX5, thanks for the rant reminding anyone that is close by that you are the smartest and best one here.
 dont stroke seans  ego , he is already a legend in his own mind  
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odcics2
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« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2017, 05:05:00 PM »

Odcics2, thank you for all the information you share. It is really insightful.

CX5, thanks for the rant reminding anyone that is close by that you are the smartest and best one here.
 dont stroke seans  ego , he is already a legend in his own mind  

Thanks, Redbird.     cheers
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C5X DAYTONA
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2018, 12:20:16 AM »

Odcics2, thank you for all the information you share. It is really insightful.

CX5, thanks for the rant reminding anyone that is close by that you are the smartest and best one here.
 dont stroke seans  ego , he is already a legend in his own mind  
  Galen, you have an issue?  My conversation with Greg was not to sound like a smart ass.  I got to know George personally and I was just one here relaying his comments in a friendly (I thought) format.      I don't know where this comes from with you..   But it's not the first time..       As for you Stu... Keep it up...  I know where you live.    Wink 
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odcics2
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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2018, 07:04:55 AM »

Odcics2, thank you for all the information you share. It is really insightful.

CX5, thanks for the rant reminding anyone that is close by that you are the smartest and best one here.
 dont stroke seans  ego , he is already a legend in his own mind  
  Galen, you have an issue?  My conversation with Greg was not to sound like a smart ass.  I got to know George personally and I was just one here relaying his comments in a friendly (I thought) format.      I don't know where this comes from with you..   But it's not the first time..       As for you Stu... Keep it up...  I know where you live.    Wink 

p.s. Sean - I have a PILE (over a foot tall) of new info from the Woodward Garage operation. Chock full of new info, never seen before by the public!    Example - the 88 was being prepped for the 1970 Daytona 500. 
At some point in the future, it'll all be out there for wingnuts to enjoy!

Happy New Year to all!
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C5X DAYTONA
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2018, 12:04:41 PM »

Right on.  Very cool.  That is in incredible amount of info newly? found.   I'm sure all the photos I have of that car on the lift and detailed chassis shots you already have?   I can't remember if I emailed them to you.
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Redbird
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2018, 12:16:35 PM »

I come to this site because I might learn something. I am a lot more interested in learning something than being right.

If, and not too often, I have something to offer-I'll put that out.

Odcics2, I am awed by your knowledge, your ability to back things up, and your genuine concern to share what you find.

C5X, I'm sure you are a swell guy. I remember meeting your dad at a national meet years ago and thoroughly enjoying talking with him.

My observation is that you sometimes take 1/2 a story, own it, then build from there. Sometimes it works. I accept that you always start with a kernel of truth. I'm sure you work long and hard at what you do. I am glad you are here.

Maybe, because I am not so smart, when there is a large rambling paragraph, I find it hard to digest things. I have taken a number of communication classes for work; they have taught me to break things down into bite size and varied chunks if I want to get my message across. Long paragraphs on the internet make it hard for me to find the message in them.
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odcics2
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2018, 02:34:11 PM »

Right on.  Very cool.  That is in incredible amount of info newly? found.   I'm sure all the photos I have of that car on the lift and detailed chassis shots you already have?   I can't remember if I emailed them to you.

I have the series of pics from August, 1970, but thanks for the offer.   Backdating the car to March 24th., 1970, so some of the stuff in the pics wasn't there yet!  That's what makes a resto fun!   2thumbs

Thanks for the kind words, Redbird.    I believe that file cabinets full of original documents and photos are useless. 

Get it out there - spread the knowledge.   
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C5X DAYTONA
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2018, 02:52:25 PM »

Galen,  I am not on this site often and when I am and I do have something to offer..  I will offer it..  Not looking for a fight from someone who has nothing to offer on the subject but jabs.    I don't need you to try and belittle me.. It's not constructive.    As far as this post is concerned I always get in on the "extractor" story.  Dad has the 3/8s car.  I've spent a lot of time with George Wallace and the fender top issue was "his" deal for Pointer to figure out..  

I don't know what you mean by "1/2" truths..  I think you are referring to the oil pump on the salt deal..   I even asked my dad about it and he said the same thing as I did..  We were both standing there with you/group when someone came over with a big stainless oil jug and put oil in the motor and said it was empty after it was just idling at your pit..    Can't be a half truth if we both heard and saw the same thing..  It's just what we observed.  It might be 100% wrong but it is just how we saw it...    I understand you said that the actual problem was the oil pump was full of Vaseline or something to that affect and it wouldn't prime..  

I do get the long paragraph and taking it in bit..    Sorry about that.  I am bad at that..  The point gets lost in my gibberish..  I'll make this into short bite sized bits just for you..    cheers

BTW I still have the wheels for Woody's car but he sold it a while back.   I'll just keep them stored incase the new owner would like to have them.  
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C5X DAYTONA
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2018, 02:58:32 PM »

Right on.  Very cool.  That is in incredible amount of info newly? found.   I'm sure all the photos I have of that car on the lift and detailed chassis shots you already have?   I can't remember if I emailed them to you.

I have the series of pics from August, 1970, but thanks for the offer.   Backdating the car to March 24th., 1970, so some of the stuff in the pics wasn't there yet!  That's what makes a resto fun!   2thumbs

Thanks for the kind words, Redbird.    I believe that file cabinets full of original documents and photos are useless. 

Get it out there - spread the knowledge.   
cheers 
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