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Author Topic: Hemmings article on Sam Ballard's Daytona restoration  (Read 2478 times)
hemigeno
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« on: April 06, 2018, 08:44:57 AM »

Nice Hemmings Daily summary / write-up of Sam Ballard's Daytona restoration:

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2018/04/05/a-69-daytona-rises-out-of-the-rust/?refer=news

Sounds like there'll be a 2-part upcoming feature article in Hemmings Muscle Machines too.

Here's a couple of pics


* 100_0747.jpg (333.07 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 706 times.)

* 100_1567a.jpg (376.36 KB, 2000x787 - viewed 694 times.)

* CAM20301a.jpg (162.18 KB, 2000x999 - viewed 683 times.)

* F6DaytonaRacing.jpg (246.47 KB, 2000x1125 - viewed 677 times.)
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moparstuart
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 09:56:50 AM »

 popcrn  is this the one that had a dog living in the nose  or chained to it  ?? 
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XS29L9B2
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dodge charger 440 rt 69


« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 10:00:11 AM »

Very Nice
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dodge charger 70 projet daytona
Dave Kanofsky
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WING IT ! !


« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 11:27:54 AM »

Great looking car, I love the stance
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alfaitalia
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 11:59:33 AM »

popcrn  is this the one that had a dog living in the nose  or chained to it  ?? 


Looking at that uneven nose gap....he might still be in there! smilielol
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nascarxx29
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 12:33:29 PM »

I remember that one from ny state what a save.http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/6945995/site_id/1#import
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
DAY CLONA
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2018, 03:47:56 PM »

popcrn  is this the one that had a dog living in the nose  or chained to it  ?? 


Looking at that uneven nose gap....he might still be in there! smilielol


If you've ever hung a nosecone, you'd understand how ill fitting all the components really are, everyone has been fed a steady diet of OCD wingcar restorations the last few decades, which is understandable, but if you ever take the time to study original pics from back in the day factory lit/road tests/etc or original low mileage untouched vehicles... some of the cars had some horrendous gaps, seals hanging out, panels pushed/pulled to make a reasonable alignment or barely an attachment in some cases, headlight doors skewed/rubbing every which way to Sunday, along with horrible fitting trunk lids/dutchman panel gaps, wings with alignment issues, scoops hanging off the edges of fenders, the list was endless, along with over abundant amounts of orange peel in the paint, overspray, lack of paint coverage/primer barely present, tape lines.... yada,yada,yada


* PPPARRRRFOTHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEcc.JPG (64.69 KB, 1270x609 - viewed 619 times.)

* PPPPPPPPARTOTHecayu.JPG (144.5 KB, 698x927 - viewed 628 times.)

* PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRftc.JPG (34.65 KB, 506x407 - viewed 623 times.)

* PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTYYYYYYYYYYYY.JPG (57.99 KB, 1001x713 - viewed 623 times.)
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alfaitalia
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2018, 04:05:28 PM »

Fare enough...even standard Chargers have a pretty rubbish finish..even by standards of the day (well UK standards at least.....don't have much experience of 60s US cars). My pretty original shell had paint runs all over...in the trunk looked like the paint had been poured down the sides with curtains everywhere, door gaps massive one side tiny the other...the doors are the same size the actual apertures are different side to side! Door scallops go further back on the left door than the right etc etc. That's why I have to laugh when people say they have restored to to as good as the day it left the factory and say...."I sure as hell hope you didn't !"

...anyway back on topic (ish) I agree with what you say but that green one is particularly bad and the nose gap getting bigger as it goes down really draws your eye to it...the fussy git in me could not live with that!
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JB400
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2018, 06:47:53 PM »

I wonder how much of that quality control was the reason for the wing cars not selling?
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nascarxx29
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2018, 04:52:24 AM »

Story Daytona XX29L9B356528
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
odcics2
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2018, 06:58:35 PM »

I wonder how much of that quality control was the reason for the wing cars not selling?


 
Daytonas were sold out before they even built them.   
You need to watch CNN to get the facts right!  (Creative News Network)   2thumbs


As far as Birds go, yes, they languished on dealer lots well into 1970 and later.   The three main reasons for that was 1970 was a recession year, car sales were down, & insurance on muscle cars was rising.   Almost 2000 Birds were a lot of cars to unload AFTER the public had the 500 Daytonas!!!   
I remember seeing the cars new.  Talk about ODD!!    yesnod
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odcics2
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 07:22:29 PM »

popcrn  is this the one that had a dog living in the nose  or chained to it  ?? 


Looking at that uneven nose gap....he might still be in there! smilielol


If you've ever hung a nosecone, you'd understand how ill fitting all the components really are, everyone has been fed a steady diet of OCD wingcar restorations the last few decades, which is understandable, but if you ever take the time to study original pics from back in the day factory lit/road tests/etc or original low mileage untouched vehicles... some of the cars had some horrendous gaps, seals hanging out, panels pushed/pulled to make a reasonable alignment or barely an attachment in some cases, headlight doors skewed/rubbing every which way to Sunday, along with horrible fitting trunk lids/dutchman panel gaps, wings with alignment issues, scoops hanging off the edges of fenders, the list was endless, along with over abundant amounts of orange peel in the paint, overspray, lack of paint coverage/primer barely present, tape lines.... yada,yada,yada

Wing cars were homoligated to race.   If they didn't have to do that, there would be no street wing cars!!
Part of the coolness of an original wing car, especially a Daytona, is the half-ass'd  assembly!   
Us anal guys love this $hit!   Each Daytona is like a fingerprint!!   No two the same!   
 cheers
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Kowal
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2018, 05:23:41 AM »

I wonder how much of that quality control was the reason for the wing cars not selling?

I think people forget as well that we drove these cars as daily drivers, in the rain/snow to work.  I don't think many people saw these as collectable, some were able to buy one to set aside to race.   You really had to be "all in" on the car to think it was a good idea to drive something this wild all over the place, particularly as you could get a 'Cuda or Challenger starting that same year!   Not to mention that from a consumer's perspective, GM had really picked up their game in '70 - '71.

I can give you a good example from today...a friend of mine drives a Roush Ford Rapter as his daily driver.   Enormously cool truck, but so big that he almost takes part of the next lane when driving.   He is thinking of parking it.
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TiMopar
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2018, 06:09:49 AM »

Beautiful car, panel gaps and all.....
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Redbird
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2018, 07:04:36 AM »

Superbirds were grossly misplaced in the marketplace, it is no wonder they failed to sell.

First, the recession of 1970.

Second, such a high percentage of them had 6 BBL's and Hemis. Meaning 12 month warranty. No big deal today, but for a new car bad news.

Third, price in relation to other cars. For Superbird money you could get a RR 'vert, a Fury 'vert, and almost a 300 'vert. Not to mention other brands' offerings, 442 'vert comes to mind.

Successful young executive, what would they buy? A solid sporty car saying I'm moving up? Or a temperamental kind of flaky car with a bad warranty, that by the way had mismatched paint from the start?

The market for this kind of thing new was smaller than you think.

These cars were massively misplaced in the market.
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Aero426
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2018, 07:57:42 AM »


Second, such a high percentage of them had 6 BBL's and Hemis. Meaning 12 month warranty. No big deal today, but for a new car bad news.

Third, price in relation to other cars. For Superbird money you could get a RR 'vert, a Fury 'vert, and almost a 300 'vert. Not to mention other brands' offerings, 442 'vert comes to mind.


Galen, for the sake of discussion,  "someone" had to determine the product mix.     The marketing plan to the dealers was to get Superbirds in front of people in the stores as a traffic builder; then sell the standard bread and butter model.   In essence, a halo car, before there was such a term.    Is it possible the higher option equipped cars were supplied for this reason?    I lean neither for or against that argument.  But I think it is a plausible explanation.     
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odcics2
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2018, 09:21:37 AM »

Superbirds were grossly misplaced in the marketplace, it is no wonder they failed to sell.

First, the recession of 1970.

Second, such a high percentage of them had 6 BBL's and Hemis. Meaning 12 month warranty. No big deal today, but for a new car bad news.

Third, price in relation to other cars. For Superbird money you could get a RR 'vert, a Fury 'vert, and almost a 300 'vert. Not to mention other brands' offerings, 442 'vert comes to mind.

Successful young executive, what would they buy? A solid sporty car saying I'm moving up? Or a temperamental kind of flaky car with a bad warranty, that by the way had mismatched paint from the start?

The market for this kind of thing new was smaller than you think.

These cars were massively misplaced in the market.

They were not intended to be marketed at all.    Chrysler didn't want to build ANY for the street.  Nascar made them do it to race.   Same goes for the street hemi...
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2018, 09:33:09 AM »

Doug,

I agree and understand with the Halo position of the cars. C/P even made that point in the Dealer introduction brochure.

I do think Plymouth really tried (Arthur Godfrey here icon_smile_big) to learn from the Daytona how they could sell 2000 cars. Every S/B got PS, PDB and a 26" radiator with a shroud. Big cars really needed this.  Styling did a little work. Then someone was looking inwards at the car and thought :thumbs:lets make sure we really have a performance car here so lets show the public our 6 BBL. High impact colors, special motors, WOW bodywork; that would bring people into the showroom.

Still you have Road Runner buyers used to seeing a $ 3500 list on Road Runners.

They had a couple of great magazine ads and a beginning TV presence at NASCAR.

But, the higher end buyers were often looking elsewhere for a Chrysler 300 or a 442 'vert. Plymouth did after all advertise themselves as a low priced car.

So they had cars that really brought people in, but that were unwisely and unsuccessfully placed price wise in the marketplace.

I think Motor Trend really got it right in 1970 where they said "Plumbing Contractors and Vets with combat pay". However those groups also could look at a Z-28.

I really do believe a complete failure to understand the marketplace on who would actually buy the cars, vs. who would look at the cars was a big problem.

Ultimately a good marketing strategy for the whole line. But a poor sales strategy for the Superbird model.

"Hey, we're really trying here"

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benny70hemibird
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« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2018, 01:48:42 PM »

Man, that one came out nice. Mine is in about the same shape as this car was when the restoration began and it's a twin to it. Same color's. Gives me a bit of hope. It's been apart way to long. Thanks for sharing that.
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nascarxx29
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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2018, 06:34:18 PM »

How s the Daytona and hemi bird with wild air brush art on the hood
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
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« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2018, 09:02:40 AM »

Doug,

I agree and understand with the Halo position of the cars. C/P even made that point in the Dealer introduction brochure.

I do think Plymouth really tried (Arthur Godfrey here icon_smile_big) to learn from the Daytona how they could sell 2000 cars. Every S/B got PS, PDB and a 26" radiator with a shroud. Big cars really needed this.  Styling did a little work. Then someone was looking inwards at the car and thought :thumbs:lets make sure we really have a performance car here so lets show the public our 6 BBL. High impact colors, special motors, WOW bodywork; that would bring people into the showroom.

Still you have Road Runner buyers used to seeing a $ 3500 list on Road Runners.

They had a couple of great magazine ads and a beginning TV presence at NASCAR.

But, the higher end buyers were often looking elsewhere for a Chrysler 300 or a 442 'vert. Plymouth did after all advertise themselves as a low priced car.

So they had cars that really brought people in, but that were unwisely and unsuccessfully placed price wise in the marketplace.

I think Motor Trend really got it right in 1970 where they said "Plumbing Contractors and Vets with combat pay". However those groups also could look at a Z-28.

I really do believe a complete failure to understand the marketplace on who would actually buy the cars, vs. who would look at the cars was a big problem.

Ultimately a good marketing strategy for the whole line. But a poor sales strategy for the Superbird model.

"Hey, we're really trying here"



What price would you have asked for them?
Chrysler took a loss on each one built.
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Redbird
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« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2018, 08:02:39 PM »

My thoughts are to look at a complete package of a Divisions’ sales set-up rather than trying to save $ 5 on cheaper air cleaner base.

Here are basic list prices for 1970 cars in the C/P line. This helps show how the model line-up was structured for a sales cost:

Chrysler 300 ‘vert   $
S/B         $ 4298
Sport Fury GT   $ 3898
Fury III ‘vert   $ 3415
GTX HT      $ 3535
RR ‘vert      $ 3298
RR HT      $ 3034
RR Coupe      $ 2896

‘Cuda         $ 3164, Hemi option in a ‘Cuda $ 871, 6 BBL option in a “Cuda $ 250. + $ 195 or $ 227 transmission on either engine.

P/S $ 105.20, P/B $ 42.95, D/B $ 27.90

The Daytona set-up out a base price over the R/T. The Charger R/T would be seen as a step up from the GTX. 500 of these sold quickly.

The base Superbird had the same driveline as the GTX, but smartly to keep costs down did not have the trunk or hood trim like the GTX. Nor did the S/B have std. bucket seats. The S/B also kept emblem costs down w/o metal nameplates. The stickers were unique w/o much in up front set-up costs. The actual marginal cost of a 440 over a 383 was likely not that much. The Vinyl top was cheap to solve expensive finishing. So they made smart choices to keep some costs down.

A prospective buyer might have looked at a base price between a RR and GTX, added the Dodge mark-up to a Daytona from a R/T and said that price works for a Superbird.

My thoughts are that the 6 BBL option in a Superbird might better have reflected the proportion of 1969 6 BBL cars to the total 1969 GTX/RR production, rather than over 1/3 of the production.

The number of 6 BBL Sport Furys for 1970 was small.

A more affluent car buyer buying a $ 4600 car would be much more interested in the warranty than a young impulsive $ 3000 purchaser.

It is quite hard to sell 2000 specialty cars that are at the top end of a low cost car makers’ price structure. Then add a highly reduced warranty, a recession, and sloppy workmanship where the paint did not match; the buying markets number of ready prospective owners was small.

One could look at the Shelby GT 350 & 500 for 1968 and get an idea of how much and how many people would pay for larger price for a bigger engine in a body package.

I also believe that in sales one never should have a “stale” product. C/P likely knew that they were going to lose money on each car. They probably saw the quick sales of the Daytona, said we can possibly lose less per car on a Superbird; then they decided to showcase the 6 BBL and they had a top priced product for their market segment that sat on the showroom for too long.
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odcics2
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2018, 06:21:16 AM »

 scratchchin


* ken brown selling price superbird 440 six pack loaded.jpg (82.3 KB, 800x600 - viewed 266 times.)
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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2018, 06:58:12 AM »

I have been told that that ad was Aug 16th 1970, and a previous ad for $200 more was from June 7th 1970; from the 1970 Michigan races. I have also been told that those cars were gently used Factory Executive cars.

Regardless, as stale merchandise they sold at those prices, a come down from a list of $ 4600 or so.


* PA140469h.jpg (112.4 KB, 768x576 - viewed 257 times.)
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odcics2
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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2018, 12:28:06 PM »

Hey,  I have the same coffee cup!
Yes, the ads you mention were in MIS race programs.
I heard the cars were still new.
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