Wheels jack up when I turn hard left.

[Loa]

Hello,

I've had my 68 Charger aligned, and everything's straight. But whenever I make a hard left turn (at low speeds, wheels turned all the way to the left), the two front wheels jack up, the camber goes negative and the wheels screech.

If I then lift the car up (with a jack, on both sides), the wheels come right back to 0 camber and everything works fine.

Any ideas?

[timmycharger]

Is the caliper getting hung up on the front sway bar if so equipped?

[Loa]

Nope, no sway bar! And looking around, I don'T see anything else that could catch anywhere.

[timmycharger]

Hmm. how about your center link and tie rods, are they actual 68 B body stuff or possibly from another car giving it too much travel from side to side?

[Loa]

That's possible, but I wouldn't know how to identify them. The right tire touches the frame slightly when I turn all the way to the right, but that doesn't seem to cause any problem.

I have rallye wheels from a 73-74 Charger, and I know the backspacing is different. The wheels seem to be too far in. But except for that slight rubbing, clearance is fine. The wheel doesn'T touch the callipers (3/4 of an inch gap) nor the upper table (about same gap).

[HPP]

Does it do this on right turns?  Do both tires go negative on left turns?

[PlainfieldCharger]

sounds like the steering box wasn't centered when you had it aligned..

[Dino]

No sway bar? You are running one though right?

[Loa]

Once the wheels jack-up, both wheels do go negative camber. And it's not just during the turn, they remain this way afterwards. I've managed to bring them back to 0 by using a jack to lift the front of the car up.

I'm not sure it does that on right turn. I'll have to check.

And no, I don't have a sway bar at all.

Thanks for the help.

[c00nhunterjoe]

What is confusing me is that when you recenter the wheel, the tires/rims do not recenter. That tells me that something is loose. 

[Dino]

So install the sway bar. It's not optional.

[c00nhunterjoe]

So install the sway bar. It's not optional.

I run without a sway bar. Have 0 issues. Sway bar is for cornering stability at speed, not parking lot manuevers.

[HPP]

so when you say the wheels "jack up" is that a literal term that they are lifting the car of a figurative term that something isn't right?

What is confusing me is that when you recenter the wheel, the tires/rims do not recenter. That tells me that something is loose. 

...or broken.

Two things I'd start with is double check on torque on upper control arm eccentrics and verify the  lower control arm mounting sockets aren't tearing out of the K.

[Loa]

Thanks for the tips. I'll take a good look at them once it's not an oven around here!

[Loa]

Well, I haven't really solved the problem, but I've put the other wheels with less backspacing (wheels are further out) back on. And there's no issue even when I turn hard to the left. Could it be just that?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Width of the wheels doesnt affect it. I had 8.5 wheels with 275 tires on the front of mine. What are your alignment specs?

[Loa]

It's not the width of the wheels, but their backspacing. There's about 1.5 inches of difference between the two sets. The problem only occurred with one set of wheels, not the other. Even when I purposefully try to recreate it.

[funknut]

Look in the wheel well and check for tire rubbing.  If backspacing is all you changed then the previous set of wheels were getting into the fenders or frame rails during a turn.

What are the dimensions (width, diameter, backspace) for both sets of wheels?

[Loa]

As I said, the problematic wheels make the right tire rub *very slightly* on the frame, but only when I turn to the right.

The left tire doesn't rub anywhere, and even after the last time the tires "squeezed" (don't know of a better term), there was nothing on the callipers, the tables or the frame.

I don't remember the exact dimensions of each wheel. But the one that doesn't cause the problem is 14" (with a 215/70/14 tire and not a lot of backspacing) and the other one is 15" (225/70/15 with a lot of backspacing).

Once the temperature drops, I'll pull them off and measure them correctly. (It's now a 97* "feels like" 115* oven around here!)

[c00nhunterjoe]

If the alignment goes out when turned, and stays out when the wheels are centered until you jack them up and they pop back into place- something is loose or broken.

[garner7555]

Do the wheels that were on the car during the problem fit properly?   Could also be loose lugnuts or the hub hole in the wheel is too small to fit over the hub.   Other than loose wheels, I agree with coonhunter, it has to be something loose or broken.   The wheels that offset to stick out more may have more leverage to hold the loose or broken parts pushed in one direction which will cause you to think it's fixed.   Be very cautious to drive the car until you or someone else checks every connection point of the front suspension and steering.   

[Loa]

I'm not sure if the wheels fit the "car" properly. None of the wheels I have are stock, and I can't seem to find the official stock measurements for a 1968 Charger. Offset? Backspacing? Width...

[charger Downunder]

Better check and tighten up those top camber bolts i would say something is loose.

[HPP]

Ok, lets start with this. You say you had it aligned recently, did it do this before the alignment?  Did the shop give you a print out of the before and after specs?

Better check and tighten up those top camber bolts i would say something is loose.

That was my thought too. We've all heard of stories where shops didn't torque these adequately and they  rotate after the fact. But,  if  he just tightens them down, it  could be in an off position. Hence my question about the specs above.

[Loa]

Yes it did this before the alignment. I did not ask for a print out because I was with the guy the whole time. They were in pretty good alignment before the procedure in any case.

Also, the guy doing the alignment knows old mopars pretty well. In fact, it did this after the alignment when he tried it out. He then found that the bushing for the lower table on the passenger side was worn. He replaced it.

When I called him to say that the problem returned, he was really stumped. I'll have to bring the car back.

[Mike DC]

                
After 50 years the K-frame welds/metal could be fatigue-cracking apart in scary ways.  It's not the first immediate thought for what you describe but it doesn't hurt to check it.  

The first failure point would be the LCA mounts.  The tubes welded into the K-frame's rear legs can crack/tear loose from the walls of the leg.  

[70 sublime]

Sounds almost what my car was doing
I kept changing parts
Replaced every bit of rubber in front suspension
Turned out it was the mount in the K frame had half ripped out of the frame
Depended which way you turned it would pull or push over too far
The wheel had a bad lean to it when this was happening

[HPP]

Yes it did this before the alignment. I did not ask for a print out because I was with the guy the whole time. They were in pretty good alignment before the procedure in any case.

Also, the guy doing the alignment knows old mopars pretty well. In fact, it did this after the alignment when he tried it out. He then found that the bushing for the lower table on the passenger side was worn. He replaced it.

When I called him to say that the problem returned, he was really stumped. I'll have to bring the car back.

If it did this before alignment, and things return to normal when you put the front end in the air, I tend to agree with the two posts above that you potentially have K frame damage.  The mounts can tear loose in the K frame and not be obvious because the arm bolt is still running through the tube, the lower arm is in the way of seeing it, and still has a nut in its appropriate place on the front side. When you put it in the air, the weight of the wheel and tire pull the arm back out and down and it realigns. Even if it is just one side that is moving.

I'd suggest putting it in the air with some jack stands under the frame rails so the tires can hang. Then pry the lower control arm in and out to see if you can move it.

Only other alternative to allow that much range of motion effecting camber is the upper control arm bushing area and/or mounts are similarly torn and allowing flex. A crack in the upper control arm in the bushing area could flex some.

[Loa]

Thanks for the added suggestion about the K frame. I'm going on vacation for 2 weeks (not with the car) and I'll have to have it checked when I get back.

[Loa]

Well, after a lot of experts failed to determine what was going on, we decided to pull all the front control arms to discover the problem. The bushings, although they looked very decent from the outside, were all completely destroyed inside. So when there was a stress bigger than the weight of the car pushing them down, they would move around quite a lot. (Good job diagnosing, HPP!)

All four of them have been changed and the car handles very nicely.