Felpro heads copper shim

[Nacho-RT74]

Question! Is it posible to use the felpro head copper shim ( 0.020 ) as a headgasket? ( without add any other gasket )

[Gold Rush]

In an absolute perfect match situation I think it might work.  Would I do it?  NOPE!  Never have seen a head and block mate perfectly..  You would be asking for issues.

JMHO..   

[c00nhunterjoe]

Only guys i know running copper are top fuelies. You can get .020 head gaskets in different styles depending on the machine finish your block and heads were milled to.

[alfaitalia]

I used to run a solid copper head gasket...on my old Ford Capri (completely different car to the ugly US one by the way!)....I was young, broke with a leaking HG......but I did have and old copper domestic hot water tank from my dad's house that had been replaced due to a leak! I cut it to shape...easy on thin copper...annealed it., and put the head back on. It was still there 4 years later when the bloke I sold it to sold it on! Might still be!

[Nacho-RT74]

I’m asking because my original block was definitelly damaged at machine shop ( 3rd attemp ). They got finally squared the decks, nice, but now pistons ( KB215 ) leaves the block 0.040” ( ASSHOLES... the worst piston was leaving the deck around 0.010 or so... ) but found a block already at 0.020 bore like my pistons. A light hone job will make the job on cylinders. This block has been never decked so NOW it can be correctly decked at 9.98” what per KB specs should set my pistons 0.020 below the deck. I already have the shims in hands which I got hoping the squaring job could set my pistons around 0.020 over the deck. Gasket would need to be bought and imported to home. So wondering about use the shims as gaskets being I have them already in hands.

Heads quench area varies between 0.110 and 0.086 so every one will be taken up to 0.110 then mill the head 0.010” to get 0.045 quench.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I wouldnt order anything until the machine work is actually done to the block to see what it finishes at.

[Nacho-RT74]

Considering the time headgasket could take to be delivered at home overseas, I wouldn't care to get the metallic ones in advance. If not needed can get them storaged or sold locally... except if I can use these shims saving me from buy the gaskets

I already have 039 and 052 felpro headgaskets in hands to play with.

[Nacho-RT74]

Ok... thinking out loud! Why old flat head engines ( and several other engines ) used copper headgaskets without problems and “I couldn’t” make the same on this?

[alfaitalia]

No reason at all....just make sure you anneal it after you shape it and before you fit it. So that's heat it up to a dull cherry red all over (NOT bright orange!) and then either leave it to air cool to get fairly soft copper or quench in cold water to get very soft copper. If you hit the copper with something metal and it still rings it's probably still too hard so do it again...you are are aiming for more of a dull sound.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Copper headgasket shim is not a headgasket. Performance copper have fire rings or an o ringed block. You are asking for trouble using it for an unintended purpose. Its going to leak, if it doesnt leak- it will. If it blows under load, you will probably hydrolock and waste the motor.

[Nacho-RT74]

Ok, that's why I am asking.

But when the shim is used with the composite headgasket as is intended, still doesn't have the fire ring and the shim is getting same stress than without the gasket... isn't?

[c00nhunterjoe]

The headgasket has the sealing rings and when torqued, crushes. The shims are designed to work with a gasket, not as one.

[Nacho-RT74]

Cool!

[Nacho-RT74]

Thinking out loud once again... so that it means, when torquing the heads, the seal ring is not completelly compressed due the added shim and the shim just meets the surface with the composite section?

The 0.039 felpro headgasket is 4.410 bora

The 0.051 is 4.590

Can't find the shim bore but I don't think is larger than the 0.051. That could mean is not posible to use it with the 0.051 gasket?

[Challenger340]

Thinking out loud once again... so that it means, when torquing the heads, the seal ring is not completelly compressed due the added shim and the shim just meets the surface with the composite section?

The 0.039 felpro headgasket is 4.410 bora

The 0.051 is 4.590

Can't find the shim bore but I don't think is larger than the 0.051. That could mean is not posible to use it with the 0.051 gasket?

Hey Nacho
just say'in here, have you considered buying COMETIC Head gaskets ? They come in any Thickness or Bore Size you desire for a BB Mopar  ?
https://www.cometic.com/c-1280258-automotive-domestic-mls-head-gaskets.html

expensive I know, how's the economy doing down there ?

[firefighter3931]

I wouldn't use copper unless the block was o-ring'd....asking for trouble. 

Mancini has the proper .020 steel shim gaskets in a 4.40 bore diameter for your 400 stroker and they're cheap. 

Do it right the first time ! 


http://www.manciniracing.com/mrstshhega.html



Ron

[alfaitalia]

You don't need o rings with a copper head gasket intill you get over 14 to 1 compression if done right with higher clampng force on the bolts. My GSXR1100 was about 12 to 1 and ran to 11500 revs with the copper HG I made for it....no issues at all. The old Capri I mentioned above was driving for years with one....Might still be for all I know .....mind you with the performance that had it was probably at about 5 to 1 CR!

https://www.milodon.com/copper-gaskets/copper-head-gaskets.php

[Nacho-RT74]

Thinking out loud once again... so that it means, when torquing the heads, the seal ring is not completelly compressed due the added shim and the shim just meets the surface with the composite section?

The 0.039 felpro headgasket is 4.410 bora

The 0.051 is 4.590

Can't find the shim bore but I don't think is larger than the 0.051. That could mean is not posible to use it with the 0.051 gasket?

Hey Nacho
just say'in here, have you considered buying COMETIC Head gaskets ? They come in any Thickness or Bore Size you desire for a BB Mopar  ?
https://www.cometic.com/c-1280258-automotive-domestic-mls-head-gaskets.html

expensive I know, how's the economy doing down there ?

For the price of the cometic gaskets I'm buying a never decked block locally.

Just waiting for machine shop to measure the bore and get new pistons ( I think it had 0.020 pistons in it )... this time kb251 to cut the step for quench instead cut heads. WILL TRY once again to deck the engine correctly at 9.98". Quench pads on heads varies between 2.7 and 2.1 mm depth. Will equalize the quench pad on heads and cut the pistons step to match everything. Kb251 are $100 cheaper than Kb215s. Since it seems I have now to get new pistons, will buy the metallic headgaskets.

I am/was thinking on use these shims as headgaskets if block still holds the 0.020 215s I have at this moment. Has being told doesn't have any ridge on top of cilinder.

All this has being a headache, really. No matter how I really want to make things good, there is allways somebody who screws my project.

[Nacho-RT74]

I wouldn't use copper unless the block was o-ring'd....asking for trouble. 

Mancini has the proper .020 steel shim gaskets in a 4.40 bore diameter for your 400 stroker and they're cheap. 

Do it right the first time ! 


http://www.manciniracing.com/mrstshhega.html



Ron

Yes noticed, but found another seller with those on same price free shipping. ( MP ones )

[Nacho-RT74]

You don't need o rings with a copper head gasket intill you get over 14 to 1 compression if done right with higher clampng force on the bolts. My GSXR1100 was about 12 to 1 and ran to 11500 revs with the copper HG I made for it....no issues at all. The old Capri I mentioned above was driving for years with one....Might still be for all I know .....mind you with the performance that had it was probably at about 5 to 1 CR!

https://www.milodon.com/copper-gaskets/copper-head-gaskets.php

Interesting

"These copper head gaskets can be used with or without stainless steel 0-ring wire installed in the block. They are totally acceptable for street use, as long as a THIN bead of silicone is applied on both sides of the gasket around ALL the water passage

[firefighter3931]

I wouldn't use copper unless the block was o-ring'd....asking for trouble. 

Mancini has the proper .020 steel shim gaskets in a 4.40 bore diameter for your 400 stroker and they're cheap. 

Do it right the first time ! 


http://www.manciniracing.com/mrstshhega.html



Ron

Yes noticed, but found another seller with those on same price free shipping. ( MP ones )

Make sure you check the bore diameter on the MP steel shims.....they are 4.38 which may be to small for your 400 block with an overbore ? You are better with slightly too big vs too small. 


Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

Well, being 0.020 overbore I am at 4.362. Still some headroom!

I got great news today! It seems the pistons on my block at leaving 0.40 MILIMETERS, not .040” inches. That’s .015”. I can leave still with that! With the .051 gasket or the 0.020 copper shim plus the .039 gasket... and cut the quench area on chambers and heads to my needs!!!

[firefighter3931]

Well, being 0.020 overbore I am at 4.362. Still some headroom!

Don't be surprised if you lay that 4.38 gasket on the block at 4.362 bore dimension and you have some overhang into the bores and/or chambers. 

That's cutting it kind of close and if there is any core shift in that block your MP gaskets are useless. 


Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

If the wrong measure of the pistons leaving the block comes to be true, won't need anymore the metallic gasket.

The deal is anything of this is on my hands. I'm at this moment 13K kms away from my car!

[Nacho-RT74]

I got great news today! It seems the pistons on my block at leaving 0.40 MILIMETERS, not .040" inches. That's .015". I can leave still with that! With the .051 gasket or the 0.020 copper shim plus the .039 gasket... and cut the quench area on chambers and heads to my needs!!!

If the wrong measure of the pistons leaving the block comes to be true, won't need anymore the metallic gasket.

The deal is anything of this is on my hands. I'm at this moment 13K kms away from my car!

False good news... the measurement was in inches. Pistons are leaving the block 1 mm. "New block" on the works

[Nacho-RT74]

I wouldn't use copper unless the block was o-ring'd....asking for trouble. 

Mancini has the proper .020 steel shim gaskets in a 4.40 bore diameter for your 400 stroker and they're cheap. 

Do it right the first time ! 


http://www.manciniracing.com/mrstshhega.html



Ron

At the end got them, because was found the block has to be cut to 0.040 overbore.

[c00nhunterjoe]

So another block has to be obtained?

[firefighter3931]

I wouldn't use copper unless the block was o-ring'd....asking for trouble. 

Mancini has the proper .020 steel shim gaskets in a 4.40 bore diameter for your 400 stroker and they're cheap. 

Do it right the first time ! 


http://www.manciniracing.com/mrstshhega.html



Ron

At the end got them, because was found the block has to be cut to 0.040 overbore.

You made the right choice Natcho 

Good luck with the build 



Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

So another block has to be obtained?

yes, and is already at machine shop. US$170 for the block

pistons will be KB251s this time... cheaper and step quench can be matched with the asemmbly instead the other way around