Resale/decide between STOCK for the collector or doing MODS for a better car?

[69B5]

With these cars getting kinda pricey, question

My car is a 1969 Dodge Charger RT 440 4 speed. I had already posted where I was lied to and bought this car for too much $$$$ thanks to the con man I was suckered by

While part of me is still torn if this car is better off in the hands of someone with more time and funds then me that can restore it to what I thought I was buying (and I have even thought about trying to trade it for some "lesser" model or version mopar, but more restored) , it looks like I will start work on it, but I have some questions if people know the market of these cars

Maybe a vintage car dealer can chime in here, if they even go to these forums....

so my car...

PROs: Already stated, the title, dash board vin and trunk vin all match and confirm
I was told the radiator support also has the number, but there is like a factory type sticker over it
In my title....
XS (means "special" which is RT or 500)
L (means 440 4 barrel)
...it has a 4 speed and the big Dana rear


CONS
No fender tag number (lost in the re paint)
Build sheet piece corner bits were found, but so chewed up, told just thrown away (the punch line: no build sheet either)
I am assuming motor is correct era 440, but not numbers matching. And, it has on it a high rise, edlebrock, and headers, and maybe (?) a mild 30 over cam

So my friend says since I was already 'raped' buying this sight un seen, and over paid, to go STOCK AND stock only and not make things worse if I need to sell later

BUT
...... since it doesn't have the fender tag, build sheet, motor (odds are), and the motor is already changed some,  is there any reason not to convert to disc brakes, better control arms, electric headlight cover motors since all the vacum stuff is gone anyways, etc? Or am I still damm lucky to have a "real" RT would I wind up just making another major mistake right after the ones I already had?

For example, if I do the disc brakes then my factory Magnum 500 wheels no longer would fit, as most say you need 15" or larger wheels for there kits. Where is fine, I love larger wheels and want them anyways but am I basically making the car more or more devalued? Or am I far enough away from stock, it just doesn't matter anymore?

thanks

[Mopar Nut]

Install the disc's, upgrade the wiring, I did on mine and it's number matching. I have 15" magnums with Baer disc brakes on all four. I have a Borgeson power steering box that will be going in soon. I just bought a Strange S60 rear end I will be replacing the 8-3/4 in a month. Keep all the original parts though.

Build it the way you want, don't worry about resale value unless you are planning on selling.

Let's see that baby or link where pictures are posted.

[69B5]

Thanks for the interest

Several pics on this craigslist link

https://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/d/1969-dodge-charger-tspeed/6756082452.html

[Mopar Nut]

Nice looking from the pictures.

[Y1CHARGER]

It Looks to me that you didn't get robbed too bad if you stop and see what other cars are selling for and what a project RT 4sp goes for.  As long as the Body and Paint are driver quality, and it seems to be a pretty solid car with an original trunk floor in it (little pitted but not rotted and full of bondo) and still has a Dana in it.  So a few thousand $$ to get all the bugs worked out ant It will be a decent Car.  I think as you see other cars sell you will become more content with your purchase.

[Kern Dog]

Why not keep it and modify it the way you want?   

[XH29N0G]

What everyone else has already said is what I would recommend. 

The eventual prospective buyers will all have their own preferences, but having something that is nicely done and enjoyable for you will tick the boxes for someone else. You will be fortunate to break even on a "restore/upgrade and resell" unless you really know the business.  Most here, including me, have put more in than we will get by selling.  But no regrets.  My other car is much less fun to drive and work on. I consider my mechanical changes as 'upgrades' and they have made it even more fun.

If you decide to 'greatly improve the body lines' ......  do that for yourself ...... but finding the buyer might be more difficult.

[garner7555]

Things have been changing the past few years.  We are seeing the resto-mod cars bringing more money at the auction than they use to.  You are not going to get a good return on investment in either senerio most likely.  I would put the brakes, upgraded sway bars and torsion bars, better steering gear box (Borgeson box), and better upper control arms (adjustable) and you will really appreciate how much better it drives.

Not that what I do should influence you, but I am running 14" Brembo front brakes with 12" rear disc, QA1 and Hotchkis suspension, Borgeson steering, and big sway bars.  I am puttting 18" Torque Thrust M wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport tires.  I'm finishing it up this winter and can't wait to see how well it handles and stops!

[alfaitalia]

Yeah....its your car do it for yourself....unless you are planning to flip it then just do the absolute minimum so you can sell it, responsibly, as a safe car.

I'm all for the resto mod....but keeping the body stock as possible......paint aside.....im painting my bumpers body colour....but that's more because I cant get decent bumpers over here at sensible money and mine are pitted....but also I like the look. Each to their own.

Most factory restos on here are far from that to be honest....they are far TOO GOOD and nothing left the factory as well finished or painted with such even gaps as most of the "factory " restos on here. Where are the paint runs, the poor panel gaps and the overspray!! I don't thing anyone has ever don't a true proper resto....who would want to? That's why proper unpainted Survivors are going up in value....and down again as soon as they are painted!!!


So if you are going to paint and restore it then you might as well go for it.....after all it was effectively a "not origimal" and " modified car" the moment the car was repainted or whatever!!! I like to think I'm making mine how it would be if they still made them today with the same body....you know, more power, better brakes, better lights, modern wheels and tyres, suspension that enables them to handle like a modern American car (or a mid ninety European car....lol), seats that hold you in place etc etc.

So whatever you do to it, do it for you not what you think the next owner might like. .....you certainly have a far better starting point than many of us....myself included!!

[Daytona R/T SE]

Put it on Ebay the way it is.

What ever you do to it, any potential next owner will have a different idea of how it should be.

Any changes you make at this point would just be a guessing game.

Set a reserve that you can live with.

Cash out.

Move on.

[Alaskan_TA]

Is there anything preventing you from driving & enjoying it as it is?

Driving them is the ultimate return on any classic car 'investment'.

[69CoronetRT]

Why not keep it and modify it the way you want?   

Because that leads to "look what this dumb ass did" threads.

People are encouraged to do what they want, then ridiculed for doing it.

[odcics2]

Why not keep it and modify it the way you want?   

Because that leads to "look what this dumb ass did" threads.

People are encouraged to do what they want, then ridiculed for doing it.

I don't care what folks say about what I do...     

[BrianShaughnessy]

Nice looking car.     Needs TLC like you said.

Paint looks good.   If you want to get the $$$$$ you're asking then you should have it detailed and take new pics.   You're gonna have to spend a few $ to make the big $.

Biggest turnoff from the outside for me is the Welds but I'm more into resto-mods with 17's now.    Unless you're going all stock - then go with the magnums.

The big bux stock builds all have # matching motor, the paperwork and tags to go with it.   Frankly I think it'd be easier staying resto-mod 


Good luck whatever path you choose!     

[JR]

You're already past the point of getting a strong return on this car.

How long do you plan to keep it? What do you want to use it for?

Do you just want to putt around to car shows cruising at 55, or actually drive it? Because a stock Charger in reality drives like garbage. (Expect protests to that sentence in 3,2,1..)
There's no harm in doing bolt in modifications that improve the drivability and reliability of the car. You can do several improvements that bolt right on, and improve the car. Bolt ons can always be changed back in the future if you're worried about that.

Also, a car being absolutely original only seems to matter if the car is a survivor, or concourse restored. Your car appears to have a "nice driver" quality restoration done, so mechanical upgrades realistically can't hurt the value much.

I would do bolt on mods and not think twice if it were me. The car is so much more enjoyable for it.

[Moparpoolman]

  How good is the Body & Paint?, it looks pretty good and solid in the pictures. Did you get the "Blue Plate": with it, cool if you did.   Any bolt on upgrades won't hurt the value and if anything add to the value making it more fun drive.  If you have to pay someone to do the work, then just have the bigger jobs like front suspension done professionally and save the small things to do yourself.  This care doesn't look like a money pit to me.  This site is a great place to get help when it comes to fixing things. 
  I can almost predict that you could possibly sell this car at a possible loss or break even only to spend more on a car that you "Think" is a better car only to find out latter that your new car has issues and you should of just kept this one. Either way welcome to the Charger world and hope everything works out for you.   

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

I read your other thread and it's sad how you got ripped.

As I understand, it's a NON-matching engine, now with no fender tag. And you paid how much? Not piling on, but...  :Two cents:
So drive it the way it is and hope you get some enjoyment from the car. Maybe in time, the value will go up, otherwise, you got the use from the car.

[green69rt]

If you decide to swap things out as a restomod, save everything you take off the car.  Don't throw anything away.  Some future owner, or even you, may want to try to do a full restoration some time in the future and the old parts  will be available.

[Lennard]

Why not keep it and modify it the way you want?   

Because that leads to "look what this dumb ass did" threads.

People are encouraged to do what they want, then ridiculed for doing it.

I don't care what folks say about what I do...     

Agreed

[WHITE AND RED 69]

No fender tag, no buildsheet, and wrong year motor means build it how you want. You'll never be able to prove the originality of the car without those so don't think you can sell the car as numbers matching. Nowadays the big money is in survivor cars.

If you sell as is your going to take a huge loss. Put $2,000-$3,000 in suspension/brakes and another couple $2,000 in wiring and fixing small issues and enjoy the car.

[Alaskan_TA]

There is another side to the 'no tag or broadcast sheet' idea.

A guy bought a rather unusual '69 like that & built it his way since there was no documentation

Later, a prior owner of the car gave me a broadcast sheet for it, so I listed it on HH as available to claim.

A few more years pass & the guy checks the site for his VIN & contacts me.

He provides proof of legal ownership, so I send him the broadcast sheet.

Not even a 'thank you' comes back to me, I had to check the tracking number to make sure it got there & it had.

A couple more years go by & another guy introduces himself then mentions his pal by name had claimed a broadcast sheet from me.

I mentioned that I had not heard back from him after he got it & that seemed odd to me?

It turned out that his pal, with no documentation had built it 'his way' & he was disappointed in himself & his decision after a broadcast sheet for it surfaced.

If he had known how it was delivered, he would not have considered doing it any other way.

[cdr]

There is another side to the 'no tag or broadcast sheet' idea.

A guy bought a rather unusual '69 like that & built it his way since there was no documentation

Later, a prior owner of the car gave me a broadcast sheet for it, so I listed it on HH as available to claim.

A few more years pass & the guy checks the site for his VIN & contacts me.

He provides proof of legal ownership, so I send him the broadcast sheet.

Not even a 'thank you' comes back to me, I had to check the tracking number to make sure it got there & it had.

A couple more years go by & another guy introduces himself then mentions his pal by name had claimed a broadcast sheet from me.

I mentioned that I had not heard back from him after he got it & that seemed odd to me?

It turned out that his pal, with no documentation had built it 'his way' & he was disappointed in himself & his decision after a broadcast sheet for it surfaced.

If he had known how it was delivered, he would not have considered doing it any other way.

I will thank you for what you do for our car interest, hobby.

[69B5]

First off, thank you to everyone that has replied. Your opinions as Charger owners is priceless to me

I hope, in time, I can give back some how as well ....but I am new to all this

Keep in mind, that I do love the car. Even not being able to drive it now safely (plus it's winter here), my father worked for Chrysler and we had classics like the Dart, Valiant, Newport, 300, Volare' ....all through the mid 60's to mid 70's. This Charger (or a Cuda') is what I always hoped as a kid my dad would buy but as a family guy, but of course, he didn't

My questions about the money in this isn't strictly about investment, because I didn't buy it to try to get a "screaming deal" on it, or flip it, or anything like that. I bought it because I wanted a daily driver, maybe not perfect now but drive able NOW for 2 reasons

1) I am a busy person, and knew I would not have the time to really putz with the car much
and
2) The car was a lot of money (based om my standards) , and I know after paying as much as I did for it, I wouldn't have much of anything left to get it done by someone else. I mean maybe it's irrelevant, but the price is approaching 2nd hand SRT Hellcat

So while it was really disappointing as he was a liar it really is a 10 footer paint job (filler....mostly over dents and such) , I could deal with that, even though it crushed me he lied about the "10k flawless paint" .

It is because I DO in fact want to get all these fantastic suggestions done but I need to be cautious, I only have so much money to work with. If I make a major mistake by even spending more in it, but at the same time the whole while I am devaluing the car even more, I just added more insult to my injury

The truth is I DO want to improve the suspension and brakes, upgrade them, and go 17" rims, I am ALL about it

It is just since I don't have a lot of money stashed away elsewhere and I get hurt, had some loss of business (I am self employed, to a fault) and I am FORCED to sell it, I just wanted to see if the I am making a mistake drifting away from stock

I thought even IF I didn't have the fender tag or broadcast speak, a true R/T 4 speed might still be a little special. But maybe not

At this point, I have pictures of the numbers on the 440, but I still don't know how to be sure it's NOT numbers matching. But I doubt it is

Thanks for everyone's time

[birdsandbees]

Did you ever crawl under it and get those VIN #'s off the trans and engine pads that I pointed you to?

[Y1CHARGER]

All the things that you say you were lied to about, were they over the phone or through EBAY email?  If they were through ebay, ebay has a buyer protection which I think is up to $50K.  You should contact EBAY and see if they would return it for you if that's what you really want.  
On the other hand, Yes a real RT 4SPD even though no fender tag is still more valuable than a non-RT.  Also I would much rather have a non matching Engine and Trans original body panel car than a matching numbers car that has was all rusted and now wears a bunch of aftermarket sheet metal parts, just not the same.  But the best thing for you is to do what's going to make you happy.
I hope you don't mind but here's the other thread with the Ebay link so everyone can see what you are talking about also.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,134179.msg1664340.html#msg1664340

[Challenger340]

I just don't believe, imo, that you did badly price-wise at all considering your Charger's other strong points ?

It is an R/T, (suspension/torsion bars/sway bars, fuel line etc)
It is a 4 spd
It appears to be a quite solid rust free bones example.
and,
it is certainly a more than presentable, good looking Car.

Fix the current issues, wiring/gauges/suspension etc., or whatever needed for trouble free enjoyment, then decide later what to do ?
Just saying that I believe your Charger is a more than viable asset/starting point currently with/without a B-Sheet or Fender Tag than many others I see purchased for close to the same money !

Think of it this way....
would you rather have paid $25-30K for a 4 spd R/T with Tag/B-Sheet/#'s matching.... that also needs a $50K resto rust repair, and a $10K Engine & Trans rebuild ?

[69B5]

Still struggling to get pics small enough

The motor seems to say

10 18 67
25364307
D     N  

The past owner said he found what was left of a build sheet, but it was tattered corners and he threw it out

trans says

E 4

C  87622

[Moparpoolman]

Here's a thought to kick around in your head and maybe make you feel a little better.  You can use the money you didn't spend on your time and travel expenses like Air travel, rental car, hotel, food and misc expenses going out to see the car in person which would add up to a few grand and use that money to fix up what you got.  

[Moparpoolman]

Still struggling to get pics small enough

The motor seems to say

10 18 67
25364307
D     N  

The past owner said he found what was left of a build sheet, but it was tattered corners and he threw it out

trans says

E 4

C  87622

The Engine is probably out of a 68 and would have a VIN up where the bellhousing meets the block near the oil psi switch, but doesn't matter much because the Ebay ad does NOT say orig engine but it does Say Original Trans which would have a VIN or partial VIN on the pad located  PASSENGER side of the trans. Either full VIN if an early car XS29L9BXXXXXX or just 9BXXXXXX  if a later car, get that number.  Look at the pics in your other thread.

[Alaskan_TA]

If they were installed in a '69 model year car, the VIN stamps would be on the passenger side of the engine, down low & on the passenger side of the 4-speed case.

Look for small raised pads, about 3" long.

(these numbers will be stamped in, not cast in)

[Alaskan_TA]

If it had an automatic, then the VIN stamp would be on top of the bellhousing.

[hemi-hampton]

It looks to be a solid rust free California car. If so that could of just saved you $50k in paint & body work on a rust bucket, like most Chargers. I'd totally rebuild the front Suspension, Buy a Front Suspension rebuild Kit & rebuild the whole front Suspension. Then drive it all next summer & have fun with it. From the pics it don't look to bad & I don't think you got ripped off to much. LEON.

[nchrome]

69b5 don't feel too bad  l paid high teens for my rust bucket new frame rails cross members floor pans trunk floor quarter panels and one wheel well. And am still building.Yours doesn't look bad l would just drive the wheels off of it and enjoy. Then up grade if you still want and then drive the wheels off of it again. That's my plan after l get mine done and l don't care what anybody says about her she's mine and l'm going to enjoy her all l can. Then let it be the kids problem after l'm gone

[Mytur Binsdirti]

So my friend says since I was already 'raped' buying this sight un seen, 

I certainly hope that you were lubed, and the seller supplied and applied the KY.

[wingcar]

Bottom line is.....No matter what you do to your Charger, there will always be some "expert" that we just have to express he's opinion.  That why you need to build it the way you want and don't worry about those big mouth know it all's........

Even is you leave it stock.....some moron will just have to tell you how the factory never did this or that.....

Build it to please yourself and not others.......

[Y1CHARGER]

69B5, I think from the pictures I see, and the descriptions I've read including your own in your Craigs list ad, and the the price you paid I think it was a fair deal.  My input is shown by the Blue writing.  I  have read your other thread also and  few things are popping out at me.  Did the "Friend" that said you got raped see the pictures we are all seeing in the ebay ad and was he involved in your purchase decision or he's just looking at the car that showed up and the price you paid?  Also the ad does state "Vehicle is sold as-is condition with no warranty, buyer is responsible to check vehicle out prior to bidding"  
Now, the list of things wrong that you posted in the other thread, Many can be seen in the pictures, for example

* front end is all but falling off, already mentioned (and tires so worn, down to the cords on the inner edge, almost killed me on way home)BUT
Can see from pictures that left front tire for sure has excessive wear on inside, signs of front end problems
Told has a beautiful 10K paint job.....very amateur...just redone, and it's a 10 footer. Has bondo in the very few spots it rusted, not well done, and filler over dents etc
quote from ebay ad"Its a nicely restored charger but not a frame off museum piece"
No working gauges...the amp meter will flicker every now and again, but no speedo, no gas gauge, no clock, no tack

No hazards, no turn signals (except right front), no dash lights, no brake lights, no reverse lights

Cracked dash top. Cracked windshield.
Can see cracked dash in pictures
Said numbers matching. How I doubt that (pics attached). Hi rise intake, came no air cleaner filter, went to buy one, but the hood won't close with an air cleaner filter in it
440 Engine rebuilt mated to its original 4 speed manual transmission does not mean Matching Numbers and there is clear pics of engine/intake and no air cleaner
Blows some smoke, but not sure why

Gas tank leaky somewhere
Can see gas tank in the pictures, obvious it leaks when full
On the way, the tail light trim rings just fell off

No horn
Can see horn missing from pictures
No heat
can see in pictures that heater core is bypassed on fire wall
Headlights don't flip over.....and the parts that make it do that aren't even on the car
can see in pictures that the vacuum lines are missing from hole in firewall by the brake booster
Drivers door won't lock

Drivers door glass is like a inch away from the back seat glass (one is pulled further out then the other......the edge line up but don't meet flat)

Weird "tear" inside engine compartment....never seen anything like that before. Area inside door opening right under rear quarter glass just kind of separating and coming apart

Ask if front disc brakes, told yes. It's drum
can tell by pictures has drum brake master cylinder  
Told it had the hood turn signals. There is nothing in the hood, no wires going to it, nothing
Can tell from pictures that there are no hood turn signal lights
No rear arm rest, ash tray on the other side gone....small, nit pick but I am already annoyed about the bigger things
Pictures show no rear armrest on one side

I think that if you were not going to see the car in person and if you asked someone that knew these cars to look at the pictures, they could have pointed out a bunch of things like I just did.  I still like your car!

[Moparpoolman]

Craig's list ad deleted, Did you sell the car?

[Mytur Binsdirti]

69B5, I think from the pictures I see, and the descriptions I've read including your own in your Craigs list ad, and the the price you paid I think it was a fair deal.  My input is shown by the Blue writing.  I  have read your other thread also and  few things are popping out at me.  Did the "Friend" that said you got raped see the pictures we are all seeing in the ebay ad and was he involved in your purchase decision or he's just looking at the car that showed up and the price you paid?  Also the ad does state "Vehicle is sold as-is condition with no warranty, buyer is responsible to check vehicle out prior to bidding"  
Now, the list of things wrong that you posted in the other thread, Many can be seen in the pictures, for example

* front end is all but falling off, already mentioned (and tires so worn, down to the cords on the inner edge, almost killed me on way home)BUT
Can see from pictures that left front tire for sure has excessive wear on inside, signs of front end problems
Told has a beautiful 10K paint job.....very amateur...just redone, and it's a 10 footer. Has bondo in the very few spots it rusted, not well done, and filler over dents etc
quote from ebay ad"Its a nicely restored charger but not a frame off museum piece"
No working gauges...the amp meter will flicker every now and again, but no speedo, no gas gauge, no clock, no tack

No hazards, no turn signals (except right front), no dash lights, no brake lights, no reverse lights

Cracked dash top. Cracked windshield.
Can see cracked dash in pictures
Said numbers matching. How I doubt that (pics attached). Hi rise intake, came no air cleaner filter, went to buy one, but the hood won't close with an air cleaner filter in it
440 Engine rebuilt mated to its original 4 speed manual transmission does not mean Matching Numbers and there is clear pics of engine/intake and no air cleaner
Blows some smoke, but not sure why

Gas tank leaky somewhere
Can see gas tank in the pictures, obvious it leaks when full
On the way, the tail light trim rings just fell off

No horn
Can see horn missing from pictures
No heat
can see in pictures that heater core is bypassed on fire wall
Headlights don't flip over.....and the parts that make it do that aren't even on the car
can see in pictures that the vacuum lines are missing from hole in firewall by the brake booster
Drivers door won't lock

Drivers door glass is like a inch away from the back seat glass (one is pulled further out then the other......the edge line up but don't meet flat)

Weird "tear" inside engine compartment....never seen anything like that before. Area inside door opening right under rear quarter glass just kind of separating and coming apart

Ask if front disc brakes, told yes. It's drum
can tell by pictures has drum brake master cylinder  
Told it had the hood turn signals. There is nothing in the hood, no wires going to it, nothing
Can tell from pictures that there are no hood turn signal lights
No rear arm rest, ash tray on the other side gone....small, nit pick but I am already annoyed about the bigger things
Pictures show no rear armrest on one side

I think that if you were not going to see the car in person and if you asked someone that knew these cars to look at the pictures, they could have pointed out a bunch of things like I just did.  I still like your car!

I'd also be willing to bet that the windshield washers don't work either.

[69B5]

I did not sell the car. I decided to start work on the front end.  

As far as the things that were pointed out by you that I missed (all my fault I guess) , yes I should of known from the pictures, but obviously you are a car expert. I am not. I had no idea how the headlights flip until the car came and they didn't , so I had to research it 

It is true there were things I did not ask about, and when they came in bad (no headlight stuff, no heater, etc) well that's my fault because I didn't think to ask about it on the "nicely restored" daily driver. So yes, shame on me and I agree. I accept that

However, I also asked ...POINT BLANK ..........

Is it front disc brakes? YES
do all the gauges work? YES (none do)
I saw the tank, so it leaks? (no, I just washed the car it was still wet)
The front tires look wrong and bowed (It is just a picture effect, it is actually fine in person)
Is it numbers matching? (for sure, yes)
etc    etc   etc .. the list goes on

True, none of the above statements were in the listing, but it was "man to man" on a phone call and I was lied to

You are correct that some of the above pictures may show things a more expert would see. So I can accept the things I did not know to ask, even if I think it's wrong not to bring it up, and he took advantage of that. But what I am saying here is much of it WAS asked. His pre inspection was not possible because he said the reserve was 50k but the ONLY way to get the 47k was to do it within 24 hours so he could land a sunroof R/T, otherwise price goes up  

So I get your point, but it does not at all change the fact, yes fact, I was lied to and the things I was told effected my purchase decision

By the way, when I sell something myself when someone responds I list every last thing wrong with it I know about. Apparently I am different and I want to treat others the same way I want to be treated. I guess that isn't the name of the game any more

[JB400]

I think you've made the right choice by not selling it. Even though it has a load of problems, you'll know how they're fixed.

[hemi-hampton]

Were you able to leave him negative feedback on ebay for lying to you & misrepresenting the car. The $47 now sounds like a ploy to get around any inspection. Probably knew if someone was to actually inspect it would end up in a No Sale. Scammer. Good Luck, at least you got a more solid car then a lot of others. LEON.