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Overheating issues

Started by garner7555, March 22, 2019, 08:03:34 AM

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garner7555

Ok guys, since completing my car I have been driving it whenever the weather permits.  In fairly warm temps (80* F) the car will be at 180* after warm up and I hit the road but after 10-15 minutes of driving 50-55 mph the temp will start to climb.  It will get up to 200-210 in about 5 minutes after it starts to climb and by this point I am normally getting into town where there are stop signs and red lights to deal with making it jump up to 230* - 240* which means I have to shut it down and let it cool. 

I already have this fan that I plan to install to help it stay cool when moving slow or sitting still.  http://www.rainbowproductsonline.com/shroud-fan-assembly/cf-item20017-dual-cage.php

What has me confused is it getting hotter while driving.  I will add links to my setup for cooling and you guys let me know if something needs upgrading.
I have this water pump and housing from Mancini                  https://www.manciniracing.com/mabhivowapuh.html
This crossflow radiator from Summit                       https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-380460


My setup is a 69 Charger with mild 440 (sidwinder heads, 9.96 compression, RPM intake with FiTech throttle body injection)  727 trans., car has a huge transmission cooler in front of the radiator.  I also have vintage air A/C on the car as it gets up to 95* here in Alabama

Thanks for the help
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

BLK 68 R/T

Does your bottom radiator hose have a spring inside to keep it from collapsing?

comet_666

Quote from: BLK 68 R/T on March 22, 2019, 08:14:40 AM
Does your bottom radiator hose have a spring inside to keep it from collapsing?
what he said...

garner7555

No, I don't think it does have a spring.  I will check that and see.  I really hope it could be that simple.   I wouldn't have thought that it would collapse the hose but with the high volume pump that may be the problem.     Thanks guys.    :2thumbs:
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

b5blue

I think I got my spring from "Blue Oval Corral" a Mustang supply sight. (Stainless)

BLK 68 R/T

Yep, try the spring and see if that helps. Easy first step to try anyways  :cheers:

garner7555

I checked and I do not have the spring in the lower hose.  Did you guys just buy a spring and put it inside your existing hose?   Thanks.
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

Yada


justcruisin

You should be able to see if not having a spring is the problem by bring it up to temp so the thermostat opens then holding the revs at your normal cruse rpm and seeing if the lower hose is collapsing. A collapsing lower hose can be a sign of a restriction in the system or too much flow. Or a crap hose.

Mopar Nut

"Dear God, my prayer for 2024 is a fat bank account and a thin body. Please don't mix these up like you did the last ten years."

Yada

Quote from: Mopar Nut on March 22, 2019, 02:21:59 PM
Quote from: Yada on March 22, 2019, 11:38:15 AM
Check this out https://www.cjponyparts.com/lower-radiator-hose-spring-stainless-steel-small-block-1965-1973/p/HW769/ Someone on this forum suggested this earlier but I can't find the post now.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,134597.msg1672313.html#msg1672313

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,129396.0.html

Hey, there it pops up, just like that  :cheers:

@justcruisin: make sure your system does not leak air and stays pressurized, this helps booth to reduce pump cavitation and raises the boiling point of water. Never open the radiator cap when hot, then you loose the pressure that was raised during engine warmup. Water expands when temperature rises.

WHITE AND RED 69

How is the flow in the radiator when the thermostat opens up? Also what thermostat are you running?   

I did not have good luck with the high flow pump with a/c and had to switch to a standard flow a/c pump. But I've seen others that make it work just fine? So I'd check to see if the hose is collapsing and how it is flowing before throwing any money at it.
1969 Dodge Charger R/T
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee 75th edition
1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee
1972 Plymouth Duster

Bronzedodge

My experience -

1 Your radiator may be dirtier than you think.  Always use distilled water - too much minerals in tap water.  I do a flush every other year, and catch the rinse water.  If it's not clear after a 30 min drive, I keep rinsing.

2 Your thermostat might be slowing your flow.  If a summer drive without the thermostat cures it, try a high flow one from EMP-Stewart.   
Mopar forever!

darbgnik

Checking your thermostat is an easy first step, if your hoses aren't collapsing. Is your lower hose custom fit, or the accordion style? While the accordion is ugly, they are very rigid.

I just replaced my rad and installed electric fans on mine using the below parts:
rad, stock-ish looking
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1966-72-MOPAR-B-E-BODY-BLACK-ALUMINUM-26-RADIATOR-ROADRUNNER-CHALLENGER-CUDA/351583436713?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
dual puller fans
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/52116/10002/-1

It seems puller fans work better than pusher fans, and I would assume the rainbow fan you linked will be used as an auxiliary pusher? Also, it seems to me the Summit radiator will need some tab trimming to mount, plus custom runs to the tranny cooler location? See my build thread for what I did, just as an example.
Brad

1970 Charger 500. Born a 318, AC, console auto, now 440/727
Build thread:  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,127291.0.html

Back N Black

Quote from: darbgnik on March 26, 2019, 01:35:57 PM
Checking your thermostat is an easy first step, if your hoses aren't collapsing. Is your lower hose custom fit, or the accordion style? While the accordion is ugly, they are very rigid.

I just replaced my rad and installed electric fans on mine using the below parts:
rad, stock-ish looking
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1966-72-MOPAR-B-E-BODY-BLACK-ALUMINUM-26-RADIATOR-ROADRUNNER-CHALLENGER-CUDA/351583436713?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
dual puller fans
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/52116/10002/-1

It seems puller fans work better than pusher fans, and I would assume the rainbow fan you linked will be used as an auxiliary pusher? Also, it seems to me the Summit radiator will need some tab trimming to mount, plus custom runs to the tranny cooler location? See my build thread for what I did, just as an example.

That's a nice Rad and a good price.

garner7555

Quote from: WHITE AND RED 69 on March 22, 2019, 03:30:21 PM
How is the flow in the radiator when the thermostat opens up? Also what thermostat are you running?   

I did not have good luck with the high flow pump with a/c and had to switch to a standard flow a/c pump. But I've seen others that make it work just fine? So I'd check to see if the hose is collapsing and how it is flowing before throwing any money at it.

How did you come to the conclusion that the pump had too much flow?   This has me worried that this may be my problem.
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

garner7555

I added a spring to the lower hose (a cheap and easy thing to try).   While in the shop, I also built brackets and mounted my Rainbow electric fan    http://www.rainbowproductsonline.com/shroud-fan-assembly/cf-item20017-dual-cage.php             Today it was warm (80* F) and I finally had 15 minutes to take it down the road.  I let the car idle until up to operating temp (180*) and then hit the road.  Cruising backroads at 40-50 mph it very slowly climbs in Temp.  I made a short loop around back to my house and had to shut the car down due to the temps getting up to 230*   I let the fan run for a couple minutes, fired the car up for a minute to circulate coolant and shut it back down until it got the temps back to around 200*.   After this I opened the radiator cap up (very carefully, I knew it would puke hot coolant out) and fired the car up without cap.  This is where things got strange.  I was watching for coolant flow and it would suck the coolant level down low in the radiator, then surge back to the top of the radiator and overflow.  It would continue this pattern, suck the level down very low in the radiator for 30-45 seconds and then suddenly surge back to full and overflow for 30 seconds to 1 minute.   Is my higher flow water pump causing flow issues?   Is my thermostat causing flow issues?   Is trash or rust build up in coolant passages causing flow issues?   This is a problem that I haven't experienced before so any advice or insight is greatly appreciated.   Thanks, Clark.    :2thumbs:
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

Mopar Nut

Sounds like you have a air bubble in your engine or wrong water pump. Make sure the thermostat has a bleeder hole. Do you have a infrared thermometer to check your engine temperature? Your gauge might be bad.
"Dear God, my prayer for 2024 is a fat bank account and a thin body. Please don't mix these up like you did the last ten years."

garner7555

I have 2 gauges, one mechanical autometer and one electric wired into my EFI, so I feel like the temp is accurate but it never hurts to verify.  It hasn't acted like an air lock problem in the past, but who knows at this point.   I'm about ready to tear it apart to remove the thermostat and test it (possibly just replace it).   What temp thermostat does everyone recommend?  I have A/C, EFI, and aluminum heads if any of that makes a difference for thermostat.   Thanks in advance.
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

BLK 68 R/T

FWIW I have a napa 180* thermotat. FAST ez efi, firecore dizzy with vacuum advance, A/C and aluminum heads, aluminum radiator with clutch fan and factory shroud, 440 source pump and housing. I was out last summer when it was 104* outside with the a/c blasting and never got past 200* coolant temp according to the handheld computer. I did seal my radiator to the core support to make sure to direct as much air through the radiator as possible, hood to radiator core support seal is also installed.

Possible that engine timing is off just enough to cause it to slowly heat up or wrong heat range plugs perhaps?  :shruggy:

Challenger340

let me guess..... are you attempting to run a 185-190* Stat because the parts counter guy said so ?

WHAT TEMPERATURE THERMOSTAT ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO RUN IN THIS APPLICATION ?
That being...
with the BIG Tans Cooler and the A/C Condenser BOTH in front of the Radiator ?
and remember also
Timing can have a dramatic effect on how much of the Cylinder wall is exposed to peak combustion temps to heat sink and cooling system loads.


Chase your tail all you want, but until you install a 160* Thermostat as a start point, the latent Heat will continue to build. And even a 160* may require a 1/4" bypass hole drilled in it.
BTW,
FORGET what the Parts counter dorks say is the "correct" temp thermostat, you can NOT run anymore than a 160 Stat.

Only wimps wear Bowties !

alfaitalia

Thermostat rating will have very little effect on how hot your engine gets....it only really controls the minimum temp you car will run at....ie the temp at which your coolant will start passing water through the radiator ....and therefore it will close on the highway to stop your engine being over cooled.. The max temp you engine runs at will be dictated by the size/volume of your radiator, the point at which you fan kicks in (if electric) or runs full bore (if mechanical). Stat has no control at all over how hot your engine gets in traffic or in very hot conditions.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you !!

garner7555

Quote from: Challenger340 on April 13, 2019, 09:52:31 AM
let me guess..... are you attempting to run a 185-190* Stat because the parts counter guy said so ?

WHAT TEMPERATURE THERMOSTAT ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO RUN IN THIS APPLICATION ?
That being...
with the BIG Tans Cooler and the A/C Condenser BOTH in front of the Radiator ?
and remember also
Timing can have a dramatic effect on how much of the Cylinder wall is exposed to peak combustion temps to heat sink and cooling system loads.


Chase your tail all you want, but until you install a 160* Thermostat as a start point, the latent Heat will continue to build. And even a 160* may require a 1/4" bypass hole drilled in it.
BTW,
FORGET what the Parts counter dorks say is the "correct" temp thermostat, you can NOT run anymore than a 160 Stat.



I'm sorry that my post has you so upset, that was never my intention.  To answer your question, I am running a 180* thermostat because that is what 70-80% of the people on this forum advised when I used the search function and looked through old threads, not because I went to Autozone looking for advice.

I did a little further testing this morning and fired the car up cold without the radiator cap.  Once it reached 180* it maintained that temp indefinitely.  Coolant flow looked great, but it is too fast.  At 700 RPM it works fine but when I increase to 1200 RPM it is blasting water through the radiator far too fast for there to be adequate time to cool the water.   I can only imagine what it is doing at 2500-3000RPM (cruise speed).   Looks like White and Red 69 was correct above when he said the high volume pump from Mancini could be the problem.   Where is the best place to source a Factory flow A/C style pump?   Thanks everyone for your input.    :2thumbs:
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

b5blue


garner7555

All I am seeing offered on Summit's website is high volume and standard volume.   Is there also a OEM A/C option?  I feel like I should just stick with a standard volume after seeing the amount of flow the high volume generated this morning.   What is everyone's thoughts on this?  Thanks. 
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

cdr

Quote from: garner7555 on April 13, 2019, 10:35:12 AM
Quote from: Challenger340 on April 13, 2019, 09:52:31 AM
let me guess..... are you attempting to run a 185-190* Stat because the parts counter guy said so ?

WHAT TEMPERATURE THERMOSTAT ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO RUN IN THIS APPLICATION ?
That being...
with the BIG Tans Cooler and the A/C Condenser BOTH in front of the Radiator ?
and remember also
Timing can have a dramatic effect on how much of the Cylinder wall is exposed to peak combustion temps to heat sink and cooling system loads.


Chase your tail all you want, but until you install a 160* Thermostat as a start point, the latent Heat will continue to build. And even a 160* may require a 1/4" bypass hole drilled in it.
BTW,
FORGET what the Parts counter dorks say is the "correct" temp thermostat, you can NOT run anymore than a 160 Stat.



I'm sorry that my post has you so upset, that was never my intention.  To answer your question, I am running a 180* thermostat because that is what 70-80% of the people on this forum advised when I used the search function and looked through old threads, not because I went to Autozone looking for advice.

I did a little further testing this morning and fired the car up cold without the radiator cap.  Once it reached 180* it maintained that temp indefinitely.  Coolant flow looked great, but it is too fast.  At 700 RPM it works fine but when I increase to 1200 RPM it is blasting water through the radiator far too fast for there to be adequate time to cool the water.   I can only imagine what it is doing at 2500-3000RPM (cruise speed).   Looks like White and Red 69 was correct above when he said the high volume pump from Mancini could be the problem.   Where is the best place to source a Factory flow A/C style pump?   Thanks everyone for your input.    :2thumbs:

Most EFI set ups need 180 tstat because of the CLOSED LOOP fuel control temp is usually 160, in cooler temps the EFI would go in & out of closed loop.
to much water flow is NOT the problem, air flow or your new radiator is plugged up.
also as Challenger 340 said ign timing is VERY important , what is your set up as
What pulley set up do you have, Ratio ?
what radiator ?

it gets 108 here in Southeast Texas, I have AC, 512ci big block & my car will run 180ish ALL day long,100 mph or sitting in traffic
LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

69wannabe

I tried a 180 high flow in my 493 and the gauge seemed to float around half way or basically straight up in the middle of the gauge so went to a 160 high flow stat and it was a bit better but still seemed to be high for my taste. I went and bought a cheap t-stat a the parts store and clipped it and now it has just an open hole (gutted) basically and now it never gets above 190 degrees. I also replaced the old torque style fan clutch with a HD thermostat style fan clutch but my car doesn't have a transmission cooler or A/C on it. I an running the milidon water pump and the Mancini aluminum housing on my car also with a factory style 3 row radiator. Hope you get it figured out soon...

garner7555

Quote from: cdr on April 13, 2019, 03:33:25 PM
Quote from: garner7555 on April 13, 2019, 10:35:12 AM
Quote from: Challenger340 on April 13, 2019, 09:52:31 AM
let me guess..... are you attempting to run a 185-190* Stat because the parts counter guy said so ?

WHAT TEMPERATURE THERMOSTAT ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO RUN IN THIS APPLICATION ?
That being...
with the BIG Tans Cooler and the A/C Condenser BOTH in front of the Radiator ?
and remember also
Timing can have a dramatic effect on how much of the Cylinder wall is exposed to peak combustion temps to heat sink and cooling system loads.


Chase your tail all you want, but until you install a 160* Thermostat as a start point, the latent Heat will continue to build. And even a 160* may require a 1/4" bypass hole drilled in it.
BTW,
FORGET what the Parts counter dorks say is the "correct" temp thermostat, you can NOT run anymore than a 160 Stat.



I'm sorry that my post has you so upset, that was never my intention.  To answer your question, I am running a 180* thermostat because that is what 70-80% of the people on this forum advised when I used the search function and looked through old threads, not because I went to Autozone looking for advice.

I did a little further testing this morning and fired the car up cold without the radiator cap.  Once it reached 180* it maintained that temp indefinitely.  Coolant flow looked great, but it is too fast.  At 700 RPM it works fine but when I increase to 1200 RPM it is blasting water through the radiator far too fast for there to be adequate time to cool the water.   I can only imagine what it is doing at 2500-3000RPM (cruise speed).   Looks like White and Red 69 was correct above when he said the high volume pump from Mancini could be the problem.   Where is the best place to source a Factory flow A/C style pump?   Thanks everyone for your input.    :2thumbs:

Most EFI set ups need 180 tstat because of the CLOSED LOOP fuel control temp is usually 160, in cooler temps the EFI would go in & out of closed loop.
to much water flow is NOT the problem, air flow or your new radiator is plugged up.
also as Challenger 340 said ign timing is VERY important , what is your set up as
What pulley set up do you have, Ratio ?
what radiator ?

it gets 108 here in Southeast Texas, I have AC, 512ci big block & my car will run 180ish ALL day long,100 mph or sitting in traffic

For the most part my car cools fine sitting idling it's at speed when it tries to get hot for the most part.  I had an OEM style pump laying around, so I stuck it on there this evening just to do a comparison.   :shruggy:   You are correct, my EFI goes closed loop at 170* water temp. 

I think my timing would be in the correct range, but maybe not.   :shruggy:    (I run 17-18* initial and 36* total.  All in by 2500 RPM)  I need to verify this with timing light to be sure it hasn't changed.

Another thing I plan to play with is my air/fuel ratio.  I could be running a little too lean at cruise which would be contributing to the problem.  Where would you guys like to see ideal cruise air/fuel ratio?

I posted a link to my radiator in my first post, it is this summit brand cross flow aluminum unit.     https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-380460

Thanks again for all the suggestions.     :2thumbs:
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

cdr

What fan & Pulleys
are you running a vac advance ?
LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

garner7555

Quote from: cdr on April 13, 2019, 10:36:01 PM
What fan & Pulleys
are you running a vac advance ?

No vacuum advance.   The mechanical advance is locked out and I am running timing control with my EFI.   I bought this distributor from Firefighter Ron.      https://www.manciniracing.com/firradi.html

I measured my water pump pulley while I had it off.   If you measure to the bottom of the V groove then it is a 5" pulley.  I will try to measure the crank pulley later today.  The crank pulley is a 4 grove pulley and all 4 appear to be the same size.

I just recently installed this fan, and with it in high it seems to do a decent job sitting still idling.   Another thing to note is that the electric fan is pulling air back through the radiator, toward the engine, and not pushing air toward the grill as this would definitely cause an airflow issue at cruise speed.
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

cdr

take a picture of your fan & pulleys
LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

garner7555

Quote from: cdr on April 14, 2019, 12:39:55 PM
take a picture of your fan & pulleys

I was finally able to take some pictures, but the clearance is tight so it's hard to tell much about them.
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

garner7555

With very limited access to the Crank pulley, it appears to be about 6.5" in diameter to the bottom of the V groove

Charlie (CDR), You mentioned that your car will run 180* all day long with the A/C blowing regardless of driving conditions, even in over 100* outside temps.   This is exactly what my goal is.  We see a lot of mid 90* days here in Alabama and I want to be able to leave my A/C on high without worrying about the car running too hot.   If I need a new radiator and fan setup to achieve this then I am ok with that, but I do want to do my leg work to make sure I correct the actual problem rather than just throwing money at it in hopes that it will solve the issue.   I richened up the cruise air/fuel ratio but haven't had a chance to test it any yet.  I also need to check my timing with the light to verify that it is still where it was when I installed it.   Thanks to everyone for taking time out of your schedule to try to help me solve this issue.   :2thumbs:
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

cdr

LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

Challenger340

Quote from: alfaitalia on April 13, 2019, 10:23:28 AM
Thermostat rating will have very little effect on how hot your engine gets....it only really controls the minimum temp you car will run at....ie the temp at which your coolant will start passing water through the radiator ....and therefore it will close on the highway to stop your engine being over cooled.. The max temp you engine runs at will be dictated by the size/volume of your radiator, the point at which you fan kicks in (if electric) or runs full bore (if mechanical). Stat has no control at all over how hot your engine gets in traffic or in very hot conditions.

And that is EXACTLY what we used to believe.... please note used to believe, theory being just that, the reality we've experienced somewhat different.  
Being a shop that built & Dyno'd literally dozens of BB Mopars, we have been exposed to a plethora of various issues, and yes, many cooling related once they later get installed in the Cars..... the base of the cure in 90% of these issues being the "start" point at which the cooling system begins to cool, and not playing catch-up within a too narrow cooling range to overheat.

Start point for us now when a cooling issue presents, is to direct the Customer to immediately install a 165*F stat , which the common denominator is always removing a 190-195*F stat, with then at least 6 out of 8 reporting problem solved, the one or two that it doesn't cure being other issues ultimately, although the 165* did help immensely.(changed Timing/Jetting, faulty W/pump internal passages)

Call it whatever you wish, I will digress to the early Chrysler service manuals on these Cars, which clearly called for 165*F Thermostats during summers/Hotter weather, and 195*F in winter/colder seasons
which,
as most people in Northern Canada used to experience back in the day, you could not even garner sufficient heat with a 165*F thermostat to clear the windows let be see to drive while freezing ur nuts off, Kinda shoots a hole in that entire "start point" maintaining Engine Temp thing ? Because 165*F in theory should be enough to at least clear a window to see ?
Only wimps wear Bowties !

Challenger340

Thermostats are not a "switch" ?
They don't OPEN immediately/fully.... and they don't slam shut with a bang !

They open and close somewhat slower around their "target" temperature, "metering" to some extent as they do open or close.
IMO,
it is important to remember this NON "linear" aspect to application of the Cooling Systems "capacity" to cool, when addressing overheat issues.
As those who have ever run a 165*F thermostat can attest.... "normal" Engine Coolant temps are somewhat usually 10-15*F ABOVE the "target" 165*F of the Thermostat used anyway ? and we just haven't experienced any issues maintaining closed/open loop flip flops once warm ?
and IMO,
a BIG part of the problem attempting a 180-190*F T/Stats(200*F actual running) with a less than optimal Cooling System CAPACITY.

Question:
If you wanted to COOL DOWN 2 Gallons of Boiling Water(212*F) as fast as possible by ADDING 1 Gallon of Water, would you:

A.) ADD 1 Gallon of Water heated to 190*F ?
or
B.) ADD 1 Gallon of Water heated to 165*F ?

Simply speaking to the concept when diagnosing a cooling system overheat issue, of immediately moving to a 165*F T/Stat as a way to enhance Cooling System efficiency per same "volume" of coolant so it can be driven, then fine tune things like:
* Speed of the Coolant in the Radiator to allow Heat Exchange
* Pulley/Water Pump Speeds
and
* Air Flow through the Radiator itself if compromised by things like A/C Condensers, Trans Coolers, etc.

A $10. 165*F T-Stat change at the start "worked for us" is all I can say here ?
Only wimps wear Bowties !

b5blue

I thought you were going to have a mechanical drive fan between engine and radiator and use the electric fan in front of your A/C condenser pushing air back as a flow boost.  :scratchchin: But hey if that keeps temps okay that's a clean setup!  :2thumbs: (I'm using a high flow 180 T Stat.)

garner7555

Quote from: b5blue on April 15, 2019, 01:00:07 PM
I thought you were going to have a mechanical drive fan between engine and radiator and use the electric fan in front of your A/C condenser pushing air back as a flow boost.  :scratchchin: But hey if that keeps temps okay that's a clean setup!  :2thumbs: (I'm using a high flow 180 T Stat.)

That was my original plan, but this fan wouldn't fit out front so I decided to give it a try as a puller.  Some members here have had good results using it as a puller (Firefighter Ron for one) so I am testing it and it does pretty well, better than the new clutch fan i was running.   My biggest cooling problem is at cruising speeds which is odd to me.   :shruggy:   Thanks for selling me the fan.    :2thumbs:  If I end up not using it on the Charger then I will use it on another project.    :yesnod:
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

garner7555

Challenger340, I am more than willing to try a 165* stat.   I also respect how much knowledge you have about these engines (I have followed your builds and info on this forum for years).  I changed the pump to standard flow this weekend and I am going to test it first.  I would like to change one thing at a time to get an accurate evaluation of how much each thing helps.   :2thumbs:
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

cdr

LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

cdr

LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

cdr

LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

cdr

LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

cdr

LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

alfaitalia

Quote from: Challenger340 on April 15, 2019, 08:10:47 AM
Quote from: alfaitalia on April 13, 2019, 10:23:28 AM
Thermostat rating will have very little effect on how hot your engine gets....it only really controls the minimum temp you car will run at....ie the temp at which your coolant will start passing water through the radiator ....and therefore it will close on the highway to stop your engine being over cooled.. The max temp you engine runs at will be dictated by the size/volume of your radiator, the point at which you fan kicks in (if electric) or runs full bore (if mechanical). Stat has no control at all over how hot your engine gets in traffic or in very hot conditions.

And that is EXACTLY what we used to believe.... please note used to believe, theory being just that, the reality we've experienced somewhat different.  
Being a shop that built & Dyno'd literally dozens of BB Mopars, we have been exposed to a plethora of various issues, and yes, many cooling related once they later get installed in the Cars..... the base of the cure in 90% of these issues being the "start" point at which the cooling system begins to cool, and not playing catch-up within a too narrow cooling range to overheat.

Start point for us now when a cooling issue presents, is to direct the Customer to immediately install a 165*F stat , which the common denominator is always removing a 190-195*F stat, with then at least 6 out of 8 reporting problem solved, the one or two that it doesn't cure being other issues ultimately, although the 165* did help immensely.(changed Timing/Jetting, faulty W/pump internal passages)

Call it whatever you wish, I will digress to the early Chrysler service manuals on these Cars, which clearly called for 165*F Thermostats during summers/Hotter weather, and 195*F in winter/colder seasons
which,
as most people in Northern Canada used to experience back in the day, you could not even garner sufficient heat with a 165*F thermostat to clear the windows let be see to drive while freezing ur nuts off, Kinda shoots a hole in that entire "start point" maintaining Engine Temp thing ? Because 165*F in theory should be enough to at least clear a window to see ?

I bow to your superior knowledge...even if I don't really understand the reasoning. Once all the water it up to temp...say on a dino with not great airflow so no chance of over cooling....how does the rating of the stat have any bearing on the max temp the water gets to....it will be wide open whether it's a 165 or a 195 stat. Just trying to get my head around it!
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you !!

Challenger340

Quote from: alfaitalia on April 16, 2019, 05:05:14 PM
Quote from: Challenger340 on April 15, 2019, 08:10:47 AM
Quote from: alfaitalia on April 13, 2019, 10:23:28 AM
Thermostat rating will have very little effect on how hot your engine gets....it only really controls the minimum temp you car will run at....ie the temp at which your coolant will start passing water through the radiator ....and therefore it will close on the highway to stop your engine being over cooled.. The max temp you engine runs at will be dictated by the size/volume of your radiator, the point at which you fan kicks in (if electric) or runs full bore (if mechanical). Stat has no control at all over how hot your engine gets in traffic or in very hot conditions.

And that is EXACTLY what we used to believe.... please note used to believe, theory being just that, the reality we've experienced somewhat different.  
Being a shop that built & Dyno'd literally dozens of BB Mopars, we have been exposed to a plethora of various issues, and yes, many cooling related once they later get installed in the Cars..... the base of the cure in 90% of these issues being the "start" point at which the cooling system begins to cool, and not playing catch-up within a too narrow cooling range to overheat.

Start point for us now when a cooling issue presents, is to direct the Customer to immediately install a 165*F stat , which the common denominator is always removing a 190-195*F stat, with then at least 6 out of 8 reporting problem solved, the one or two that it doesn't cure being other issues ultimately, although the 165* did help immensely.(changed Timing/Jetting, faulty W/pump internal passages)

Call it whatever you wish, I will digress to the early Chrysler service manuals on these Cars, which clearly called for 165*F Thermostats during summers/Hotter weather, and 195*F in winter/colder seasons
which,
as most people in Northern Canada used to experience back in the day, you could not even garner sufficient heat with a 165*F thermostat to clear the windows let be see to drive while freezing ur nuts off, Kinda shoots a hole in that entire "start point" maintaining Engine Temp thing ? Because 165*F in theory should be enough to at least clear a window to see ?

I bow to your superior knowledge...even if I don't really understand the reasoning. Once all the water it up to temp...say on a dino with not great airflow so no chance of over cooling....how does the rating of the stat have any bearing on the max temp the water gets to....it will be wide open whether it's a 165 or a 195 stat. Just trying to get my head around it!


Don't "bow" to anything, I certainly ain't no Einstein !

You can't understand the following ?

Answer this question:   If you wanted to cool down 1 Gallon of Boiling Water at 212*F as much as possible, would you
A.) Add 1 Quart of 195*F water ?
or
B.) ADD 1 quart of 165*F water ?
Again here, assuming the Radiator is doing it's job in Heat transfer ?

T/Stat controls minimum Engine operating Temp
T/Stat also controls minimum Temp at which the cooling system begins to take heat AWAY ? if it is working efficiently which is what we're trying to diagnose here I think ?

All I am saying is this,
while I also agree wholeheartedly with the "one change at a time" criterion for diagnostics to accurate assess progress ? In our experience the immediate default to the lower temp T/Stat on cooling system issues has proven for whatever reason, to be invaluable then moving forward with diagnostics, and makes it easier to diagnose other actual Heat Exchange issues present as the root cause.
ie:
Speed of the coolant too fast in the exchanger(time) for adequate BTU transfer
Air Flow through the exchanger for adequate BTU transfer
Insufficient secondary airflow around the Engine in the Engine Bay (the forgotten factor)

I know that the greater the differential temp across the exchanger should provide greater efficiency in transfer
I know that the less the differential temp across the exchanger should provide less efficiency in transfer
these are all givens.....
but I also know what's worked for us in practical terms versus theory, when presented by Customer cooling complaints, that being to Rec the immediate switch to a lower T/Stat, which surprisingly to us as well hastened whatever diagnostic root cure they eventually found ?
Only wimps wear Bowties !

AFD 792

Garner,
Did you find a solution to your overheat issue? I'm going through the same exact thing now.

garner7555

Quote from: AFD 792 on November 20, 2020, 10:25:05 PM
Garner,
Did you find a solution to your overheat issue? I'm going through the same exact thing now.

Sorry for the delay, I don't get on very often lately.  CDR helped me get it straightened out.   I ended up replacing the radiator and fan.  I think my radiator got plugged with bits of junk out of the 50 year old block.  I run a filter in the top radiator hose now.  I used a 2 row radiator with 1.25" rows.  I also run a derale fan    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-16826         With this setup I can keep the A/C blowing and idle through a drive through in 95* weather even in high humidity.  I highly recommend this setup.
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

b5blue

Wow that fan draws 49.60AMPS.  :o

cdr

Quote from: b5blue on January 16, 2021, 10:02:06 AM
Wow that fan draws 49.60AMPS.  :o

True, but that is under full load, it is a pulse width controller set up. it ramps up & down as needed
LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
Charger55 by Charlie Keel, on Flickr

garner7555

Quote from: b5blue on January 16, 2021, 10:02:06 AM
Wow that fan draws 49.60AMPS.  :o

It takes  lot of juice to move  lot of air.    :lol:     It seriously does move a lot of air, which is why it pulls so many amps, but that is also why it keeps the car cool in extreme heat.
69 Charger 440 resto-mod

b5blue