Latest thoughts on Zinc and additives

[Kevin68N71]

Curious what the group thinks of adding zinc to oil or oil with zinc already in it, vs. just what is on the shelf in plain old oil.  Obviously zinc compounds have been removed over the years, but the question is does it really matter.

My Mopars have been driven very little the past several years, and I had never used zinc in them.  The only time I have used it at all was rebuilding my Fiat 128SL engine and my engine guy strongly recommended it.

The problem with additives, and oil in general, is everyone has different opinions.  First it was adding octane boosters, even if you didn't hear pinging,  because IT COULD BE DAMAGING YOUR ENGINE?  Then the clamor for that seemed to die down.  Then it was to make sure that you added a lead replacement or you will ruin your valves.  I followed that practice for years.  (although I did have one bozo, the claimed AMC AMX expert tell me that unless you were using REAL lead--and only he had access to the good stuff--it was just a matter of time before your motor "blew up").

Now since I am starting to actually drive my Mopars again, I am looking at the zinc additives.  Supposedly your lifters and cam lobes can really take a beating without it.  I don't race my cars and I don't beat them to death, so maybe I have just been lucky when I was driving them before.

Thoughts on all this?

[Todd Wilson]

I wouldn't worry about it. With todays oils and the technology put into them we have the best oil and protection ever available to the automobile engine. I am sure todays oils are protecting way better then some 40-50 year old oils that contained zinc. If your engines been rebuilt in the last 30 years its probably not gonna care either........


Todd

[John_Kunkel]

Today's oils, even diesel, are formulated for use with catalytic converters that don't like anti-wear additives like ZDDP and phosphorous. Take that into consideration when choosing.

[4cruzin]

Depends if you are running a flat tappet cam or not . . . those that are need the additives.   

[Kevin68N71]

4Crusin---Both mine are stock.  I rebuilt the Charger 383 myself in 1981!  New cam and lifters but just stock flat ones.  The 440 in my Super Bee I have never opened, guessing it is stock too.....

[RallyeMike]

It's science, not opinion. If you run a flat tap cam and don't use the right oil or additives you will have excessive wear. The aggressiveness of your cam, spring pressure, and how you use the car will factor how long you have before you have failure of cam/lifters/fuel pump push rod.

[TexasStroker]

I would definitely run it...talk to enough people and you'll probably find a few that wiped lobes.  It isn't much more expensive and will save you cash in the long run.

[Kevin68N71]

"It's science, not opinion."

That's what they said about octane boosters. 

That said, I might try Comp Cam's swill and see how it works.

[Kern Dog]

I started using the Comp Cams supplement along with EDM solid lifters and have not had a cam failure in years. I had 2 Comp Cams go bad in 2006/2007 and a MP small block 292/508 in 2008. It sucks!

[5hunert]

"It's science, not opinion."

That's what they said about octane boosters. 

That said, I might try Comp Cam's swill and see how it works.

I'm not sure if you asked the above experienced folks for advice, or just an opinion you could shoot down with an analogy. It appears several of the responses came from folks who have lost money and time from wiped cams.

Lets add some science.  Build an engine with a flat tappet engine, don't add zinc additive and let us all know how it goes.

Case closed.

[69wannabe]

It will go badly, wiped a cam out in 03 very quickly. I run the valvoline VR 1 oil in my charger with no cam and lifter issues and it has been built since 2012. You can do the additive which I use in my old 4.0 Jeep engines since they are all flat tappet engines too. I usually get the 10 pack of ZDDPlus from amazon.....

[sccachallenger]

One of the gurus, forgot which one.
His opinion, if using an engine built and broken in "back in the day" then don't worry about it.
Now a new flat tappet cam, or new to your block, then definitely use it.

I'd price cam, lifters, gaskets, etc. then decide what my time is worth.
And think of it this way, few of us use these cars as daily drivers.
I mean, how many oil changes in a year?
I think the peace of mind is worth the $$$$

[Kevin68N71]

Shunert---sure not shooting down anyone's advice, if you read my reply, I am going to go this route and use it.  Not very expensive, and I can err on the side of protection.

That said, whenever anyone says something is settled science, I want to know a little more.  And as I said, the octane booster bit was settle science several years back, and we see how that turned out....

[Y1CHARGER]

Shunert---sure not shooting down anyone's advice, if you read my reply, I am going to go this route and use it.  Not very expensive, and I can err on the side of protection.

That said, whenever anyone says something is settled science, I want to know a little more.  And as I said, the octane booster bit was settle science several years back, and we see how that turned out....

Why are you talking about octane boosters, they have nothing to do with oil or what you asked.  Check out this site:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary

[BSB67]

To the OP's point, I know that I'm not convinced that today's low zinc oil is the problem with flat tappet cam failures.  But it is likely a contributing factor.  

Therefore, at the end of the day, there is no good reason to not take advantage of higher zinc and phos. oils or additives for your flat tappet cammed motors, simply for the added insurance.  And also stay away from faster rate cams.  JMO.

[Kern Dog]

I'd think that any time of the day...or even the night, that oil was a leading cause.

[bull]

I'll ask my brother what he thinks after flattening the cam in his new Corvette engine rebuild using conventional oil during break-in. Wait, I already did. He's not happy about it.

[BSB67]

I'd think that any time of the day...or even the night, that oil was a leading cause.

You act like cam failures are new.  They failed in the 70s, 80s and 90s with regularity.  Heck, Chevrolet had a bunch of ft cams go south.  That was before fast rate cams, and higher valve spring pressures.  Also, show me something that is as inexpensive as a cam and lifters are today that is made as good as they were 25 years ago.  I promise you that the metallurgical, machining and overall QA/QC of these inexpensive, low volume cams and lifters for 40 year old motors is not what it was. 

[Kern Dog]

I was teasing you.
You wrote.."At the end of the day"....
That phrase is being used a LOT lately. My response was in jest, as if the approaching sundown has any bearing on oil quality.
Regardless...
Dwayne Porter told me once....The rise in cam and lifter failures was a situation where several factors came into play in a short time. Higher lift cams. Chinesium parts, reduction of zinc in oil. etc.

[stripedelete]

If I use valvoline VR1, can I move on to the next thing I have to worry about?

[BSB67]

I was teasing you.
You wrote.."At the end of the day"....
That phrase is being used a LOT lately. My response was in jest, as if the approaching sundown has any bearing on oil quality.
Regardless...
Dwayne Porter told me once....The rise in cam and lifter failures was a situation where several factors came into play in a short time. Higher lift cams. Chinesium parts, reduction of zinc in oil. etc.

Oooops - a little slow on the uptake.

[Paul G]

There are many choices in old school flat tappet cam engine oils with zinc and phos additives. Few if any will be on the shelf at your local auto parts store. To get the viscosity you want in a price point you want it is advantageous to order online. I have been using this from Summit Racing, 10w30 for $7.99 qt. You have many choices.

[billssuperbird]

I use Rotella 20/50

[c00nhunterjoe]

Cam wear due to the removal of zddp is fact. It is not just in the 50 year old hot rod engines with performance cams. It is industry wide and in modern cars. 4.0's in jeeps seizing lifters in the bores, ls's with oil pump and rocker failures, gm 3.6s wiping bearings and having the cams eat through the heads.... i see it daily. I read the tsb's from the manufactures. The government doesnt care. Zddp is important in all engines, not just for flat tappet cams.

[NS 68 R/T]

I use Rotella 20/50

Just a heads up, I'm pretty sure they took the zinc out of that.

[bakerhillpins]

I use Rotella 20/50

Just a heads up, I'm pretty sure they took the zinc out of that.

For what it's worth this is a good oil read, albeit long: https://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

At the end it talks about reading the API Service Symbol/Donut which is useful.

[b5blue]

  Interesting read, tempered with knowing the red flagged topic here saved my cam and lifters. 

[challenger70]

If I use valvoline VR1, can I move on to the next thing I have to worry about?

I am debating about running this next, I hear good things. 

[Aero426]

Just buy the correct oil.    (Diesel oil is not the correct oil).

There are now several off the shelf oils with elevated levels of ZDDP that will work great.

Valvoline VR-1 20W50 in the silver bottle (conventional)
Mobil 1 15W-50 
Mobil 1 4T bike oil.    (this is the 1990's NASCAR Mobil 1 formula)
Driven Hot Rod oil
Penn Grade 1 (formerly known as Brad Penn)
AmsOil Z-rod

[moparstuart]

Just buy the correct oil.    (Diesel oil is not the correct oil).

There are now several off the shelf oils with elevated levels of ZDDP that will work great.

Valvoline VR-1 20W50 in the silver bottle (conventional)
Mobil 1 15W-50 
Mobil 1 4T bike oil.    (this is the 1990's NASCAR Mobil 1 formula)
Driven Hot Rod oil
Penn Grade 1 (formerly known as Brad Penn)
AmsOil Z-rod

My Favorite is  https://www.amazon.com/Kendall-527-7138-Performance-20W-50-Titanium/dp/B003TQ1UA6      i also use the Valvoline 20 /50  racing   in a pinch 

[Aero426]

Just buy the correct oil.    (Diesel oil is not the correct oil).

There are now several off the shelf oils with elevated levels of ZDDP that will work great.

Valvoline VR-1 20W50 in the silver bottle (conventional)
Mobil 1 15W-50 
Mobil 1 4T bike oil.    (this is the 1990's NASCAR Mobil 1 formula)
Driven Hot Rod oil
Penn Grade 1 (formerly known as Brad Penn)
AmsOil Z-rod

My Favorite is  https://www.amazon.com/Kendall-527-7138-Performance-20W-50-Titanium/dp/B003TQ1UA6      i also use the Valvoline 20 /50  racing   in a pinch 

As a side point, the Valvoline VR-1 racing oil in the silver bottle has a street detergent package.   The black bottle version doesn't.   

[Aero426]

I use Rotella 20/50

Just a heads up, I'm pretty sure they took the zinc out of that.

It's more than that.   Diesel oils traditionally did have higher levels of ZDDP.   But they also have higher levels of detergents, which effectively tries to clean off the zinc.     That is the part that people miss when talking about using diesel oils.    

I know guys who are long term happy users of Rotella, etc because of the low cost.     Engine wear can happen over long periods of time.    Not everyone has an engine with crazy valve spring pressures either, so maybe you get by.   

[darbgnik]

It's more than that.   Diesel oils traditionally did have higher levels of ZDDP.   But they also have higher levels of detergents, which effectively tries to clean off the zinc.     That is the part that people miss when talking about using diesel oils.    

Didn't know that part.....

[John_Kunkel]

For what it's worth this is a good oil read, albeit long: https://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

At the end it talks about reading the API Service Symbol/Donut which is useful.

Look at the date of that article, 2006.

[Challenger340]

Surprising what I see here at the Shop ? and the "phonecalls" we get ?
and,
even more surprising on this thread NO mention of the importance of KNOWING/CHECKING your Valve Spring Installed Pressures and Rates when using F.T. Cams ?

just saying here.....
everyone seems to know the importance of Zinc ZDDP, Phosphorous/Molybdenum additives in Oil for F.T. Cam break-in
yet,
nobody "seems" to actually recognize the importance ? in having their V/Spring pressures & rates checked for F.T. Cams beyond trusting a Book that says "use this Spring" and have some dork install for them ?

ASK whomever is checking/installing your V/Springs for a F.T. Cam:
1.) WHAT is the V/Spring Seat pressure at the installed height on my Heads ?
2.) What will the "over the Nose" V/Spring pressure be ?
3.) Did you check my V/Springs for  Rate ?(NOT look on the Box)

If you get blank stares to any of the above ? or the answer "within specs" ?   you may have a problem with your F.T. Cam no matter what Oil or additive you use !

[justcruisin]

I have been using Oil Extreme 5w30 in a 448 with a fast rate FT hyd cam, minimal zinc but it uses a calcium high pressure additive, no problems to date.

[440]

I've been using Royal Purple in all my performance F.T. cars since it hit the domestic market and have never had a problem, yes it's expensive but still cheaper than an engine rebuild.

[b5blue]

Surprising what I see here at the Shop ? and the "phonecalls" we get ?
and,
even more surprising on this thread NO mention of the importance of KNOWING/CHECKING your Valve Spring Installed Pressures and Rates when using F.T. Cams ?

just saying here.....
everyone seems to know the importance of Zinc ZDDP, Phosphorous/Molybdenum additives in Oil for F.T. Cam break-in
yet,
nobody "seems" to actually recognize the importance ? in having their V/Spring pressures & rates checked for F.T. Cams beyond trusting a Book that says "use this Spring" and have some dork install for them ?

ASK whomever is checking/installing your V/Springs for a F.T. Cam:
1.) WHAT is the V/Spring Seat pressure at the installed height on my Heads ?
2.) What will the "over the Nose" V/Spring pressure be ?
3.) Did you check my V/Springs for  Rate ?(NOT look on the Box)

If you get blank stares to any of the above ? or the answer "within specs" ?   you may have a problem with your F.T. Cam no matter what Oil or additive you use !

Very well put! 

[c00nhunterjoe]

Surprising what I see here at the Shop ? and the "phonecalls" we get ?
and,
even more surprising on this thread NO mention of the importance of KNOWING/CHECKING your Valve Spring Installed Pressures and Rates when using F.T. Cams ?

just saying here.....
everyone seems to know the importance of Zinc ZDDP, Phosphorous/Molybdenum additives in Oil for F.T. Cam break-in
yet,
nobody "seems" to actually recognize the importance ? in having their V/Spring pressures & rates checked for F.T. Cams beyond trusting a Book that says "use this Spring" and have some dork install for them ?

ASK whomever is checking/installing your V/Springs for a F.T. Cam:
1.) WHAT is the V/Spring Seat pressure at the installed height on my Heads ?
2.) What will the "over the Nose" V/Spring pressure be ?
3.) Did you check my V/Springs for  Rate ?(NOT look on the Box)

If you get blank stares to any of the above ? or the answer "within specs" ?   you may have a problem with your F.T. Cam no matter what Oil or additive you use !

1: 230 lbs
2: 680 lbs
3: 650/"
Solid roller, street driven, lots of zddp, spray bar oiling.

[flyinlow]

I switched to Mobil 1 0w -40 European formula (1000ppm zinc) very high film strength ,wear rating, and thermal breakdown ratings. Mild hydraulic flat tappet 440. Had been using Mobil 1 15w-50, higher zinc , poor wear rating. 4-5K miles a year. Change oil once a year. Had trust bearing issue last year.  Crank looked ok so changed to large flange trust bearing, 1976 block. Not sure if 15w -50 was any of the problem (way too thick oil) installed better Torque converter at the same time and switched to 0w-40. Let the games begin.

Use Valvoline 10w-30 synthetic racing in my sons 440 Charger. He drives less, so the short drain intervals are not a problem. 1-2K miles a year.

Using results from 540rat tests on oil.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I run lucas 20w50 in mine. The weight is dependent on how you built it and what you are doing with it.

[Back N Black]

I'm using Rotella 15-40 with the GM additive, 20,000 km no problems so far but the oil pressure seems a little high, 80 psi cold and 50 psi warm. Is that normal or should I go with a different grade oil? I'm getting a little mist on the air filter after a 60 km drive.

[cdr]

0-40 Lucas in my junk

[bakerhillpins]

For what it's worth this is a good oil read, albeit long: https://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

At the end it talks about reading the API Service Symbol/Donut which is useful.

Look at the date of that article, 2006.

The date of the article alone dosen't invalidate the article or otherwise render the information in it incorrect. If you have issues with or possibly new information since the time of publishing then by all means bring that forward. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

[c00nhunterjoe]

They also said ulsd fuel wont affect the older diesels.... and ethanol fuel wont effect carburetors...

[bakerhillpins]

They also said ulsd fuel wont affect the older diesels.... and ethanol fuel wont effect carburetors...

Who is they? and where did they say that?  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm not.  I'd really like to know.

Most of the articles I read at the time cited several upgrades/modifications necessary to handle the fuel blend change with respect to components not designed for the mix or the equipment just plainly said don't use a specific blend. So logically, if one stripped out the details of the discussion and just ran with the generalized conclusion then yea, you would get into trouble.

[John_Kunkel]

For what it's worth this is a good oil read, albeit long: https://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

At the end it talks about reading the API Service Symbol/Donut which is useful.

Look at the date of that article, 2006.

The date of the article alone dosen't invalidate the article or otherwise render the information in it incorrect. If you have issues with or possibly new information since the time of publishing then by all means bring that forward. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Since 2006, the introduction of catalytic converters on diesels might make the info out of date.

[c00nhunterjoe]

They also said ulsd fuel wont affect the older diesels.... and ethanol fuel wont effect carburetors...

Who is they? and where did they say that?  I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm not.   I'd really like to know.

Most of the articles I read at the time cited several upgrades/modifications necessary to handle the fuel blend change with respect to components not designed for the mix or the equipment just plainly said don't use a specific blend. So logically, if one stripped out the details of the discussion and just ran with the generalized conclusion then yea, you would get into trouble.

They is the government. And they put it on the gas pumps.

[bakerhillpins]

Since 2006, the introduction of catalytic converters on diesels might make the info out of date.

Ah, yes. Good point. That didn't occur to me. I wonder if that's going to change the API service designation for the oil blends that support those changes.  Oh, and apologies, re-reading my post made me realize that I sounded snarky. Not the intent. 

They is the government. And they put it on the gas pumps.

It only says that it's required for 2007 or newer vehicles so I'm confused as to how that classifies as saying it's OK for older Diesels/carbs. Likewise, it only recommends it for small engines. I don't read that as saying it's a universal fuel option.   

[c00nhunterjoe]

Since 2006, the introduction of catalytic converters on diesels might make the info out of date.

Ah, yes. Good point. That didn't occur to me. I wonder if that's going to change the API service designation for the oil blends that support those changes.  Oh, and apologies, re-reading my post made me realize that I sounded snarky. Not the intent. 

They is the government. And they put it on the gas pumps.

It only says that it's required for 2007 or newer vehicles so I'm confused as to how that classifies as saying it's OK for older Diesels/carbs. Likewise, it only recommends it for small engines. I don't read that as saying it's a universal fuel option.   

Sign's 2nd sentence clearly state "reccomended for all diesel engines"

[c00nhunterjoe]

https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-and-rulemakings

Or you can read it on the governments own website. Same about gasoline.

[bakerhillpins]

Sign's 2nd sentence clearly state "reccomended for all diesel engines"

recommended - advised or suggested as good or suitable.

There's nothing in that statement that states that it is the correct fuel for every application/engine.  It's simply a recommendation, it's up to the user to validate correct application.  In fact your probably never going to see that because there is always an exception.

https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-and-rulemakings

Or you can read it on the governments own website. Same about gasoline.

I've read through several pages of the on road information. Unless I'm missing something that you can point me to I don't see any text that specifically states that these fuels are, or are not, backwards compatible with ALL diesel engines. It's lots of information on the supported levels of sulfur, emissions, phase in years, and year of required support by vehicle MFGs. I don't see anything beyond that.

[John_Kunkel]

The big problem with the low-sulfur fuel in older engines is the fuel system O rings, the older O rings would shrink and were replaced by a different material that also shrank with age...the latest O ring material seems top be holding up.