440 built - parts selection?

[Nickrc3]

Gentlemen,
               After my five-year retirement journey of restoring my first car - a 1968 Dodge Charger (purchased for $130 in 1976), I'm now at the point where I must decide on the build components of the engine, a non-original 70' 440. Having reviewed the many proven engine builds on this site and ensure success, I thought to reach out to fellow members for additional insight.

My interest is a well-mannered street engine. No racing, just a reliable, 1200-5500rpm, cool running, nice idle, adequate vacuum, pump gas build. The block needs to be bored .030 over, and the crankshaft has been grind twice and balanced, so she's drilled everywhere. 
A stroker-build appears to be a valid choice, specifically the Scat 493 kit - https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchResultsPageCmd?Ntt=942%3D-1-48053BI&requestYear=&storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&year=&make=&model=&submodel=&engine=&Nrpp=&No=&persistYmm=false.
Utilizing a dished piston, may bring me in the compression ratio I desire - somewhere around 9.1-10:1.

Intake/Carb - I have the 69-1/2 Six-pack system (which is old, worn and needs replacing), so leaning towards the new FI Tech six-pack system.

Heads - definitely aluminum aftermarket, and with the combustion chamber sized to achieve my desired compression ratio. It was recommended I consider the Edelbrock E-street heads due to RPM range, however, I desire a hydraulic roller cam kit, and these heads may not be the right selection.
Would spending the extra dollars on a high-flow CNC set of heads (Trick Flow 240) really be worth it, considering the conservative cam specs and RPM limit?
Any opinions on the Pro-Maxx or the SpeedMaster heads? They appear to be quite the value.

Regarding the camshaft - likely a hydraulic roller, one of the Lunati Voodoo 'retro' cams w/ lifters - https://www.lunatipower.com/voodoo-retro-fit-hydraulic-roller-cam-lifter-kit-chrysler-361-440-262-270.html. Not sure on what to select in terms of lift and duration.
Again, don't need some fire-breathing monster, just an honest 500HP to quickly move the 4000lb. load, yet tame to cruise and take an occasional road trip.

Lastly, transmission is a A-833, 26-spline 4-speed. Differential - Dana 60 w/ 4:10 gears (which I may swap out for a more practical 3:54).


Thanks Guys! Your suggestions and recommendations are greatly appreciated.

[Challenger340]

Again, don't need some fire-breathing monster, just an honest 500HP to quickly move the 4000lb. load, yet tame to cruise and take an occasional road trip.

Lastly, transmission is a A-833, 26-spline 4-speed. Differential - Dana 60 w/ 4:10 gears (which I may swap out for a more practical 3:54).


Thanks Guys! Your suggestions and recommendations are greatly appreciated.

As a Machine Shop Owner/ Engine Builder, I am somewhat perplexed ?

You say you do NOT need some 'fire-breathing monster' and only require 500 HP to quickly move the 4000 lb load..... yet you are then talking strokers, Hydraulic Roller Cams, Six-pack setups and on and on
and,
you also mention you have perused the 'proven engine combo's' section ?

If 500hp is all you want ?
then WHY in the world are we even discussing all that stuff ?

Go back and re-read the proven engine combio's section, 500 hp and 500+ Ft/Lbs Torque is easily attainable with just a .030 over 440, Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam and single 4 BBL..... and YES with extremely good street/Idle manners.

We've now accomplished 504hp and 535 Ft/Lbs with just an XE268H Flat Tappet Hydraulic Cam/STEALTH Heads/single 4 BBL for stock underhood appearance.... and gone as High as 545hp/562 Ft/Lbs using the XE284H in a .030 over 440 on the same sub $8K budget.

My apologies here..... it's just that your parts selection and discussion sounds more like a 600-650 Target and a $12+ budget ?

[Nickrc3]

      340 Challenger, thanks on your reply and comments. Yes, my message does appear confusing.
I lean towards the stroker kit because a local Mopar guy is using the Scat assembly mentioned, and since I need replacement pistons, crank and bearings, it appears logical to utilize a stroker kit and take advantage of their inherited horsepower. I also told this specific kit requires very little machine work to components and block.(?)
I am not familiar with hydraulic roller camshafts, only going by what local car guy's state regarding their break-in simplicity and overall efficiency.
I haven't considered the Stealth cylinder heads in this build, however, from your suggestion, maybe these are a wise selection for my horsepower requirements. Pricing/value is certainly attractive, I favor the stock appearance, and my machinist will be thoroughly inspecting and making necessary changes.
The induction system - well, I've always enjoyed the view of that factory six-pack air cleaner under the stock hood. Using modern FI technology eliminates my struggles (hard starting, fuel boiling, manual carb priming for initial startup, etc.) currently experienced with my other vehicle.

Thanks again for your candid response.

[c00nhunterjoe]

The stroker kit is a no brainer when starting with only a bare block. Anyone who is telling you to put hydraulic roller lifters in a big block mopar because its easy.... well, just run away.

[Challenger340]

      340 Challenger, thanks on your reply and comments. Yes, my message does appear confusing.
I lean towards the stroker kit because a local Mopar guy is using the Scat assembly mentioned, and since I need replacement pistons, crank and bearings, it appears logical to utilize a stroker kit and take advantage of their inherited horsepower. I also told this specific kit requires very little machine work to components and block.(?)
I am not familiar with hydraulic roller camshafts, only going by what local car guy's state regarding their break-in simplicity and overall efficiency.
I haven't considered the Stealth cylinder heads in this build, however, from your suggestion, maybe these are a wise selection for my horsepower requirements. Pricing/value is certainly attractive, I favor the stock appearance, and my machinist will be thoroughly inspecting and making necessary changes.
The induction system - well, I've always enjoyed the view of that factory six-pack air cleaner under the stock hood. Using modern FI technology eliminates my struggles (hard starting, fuel boiling, manual carb priming for initial startup, etc.) currently experienced with my other vehicle.

Thanks again for your candid response.

OK I get it now.... you have a Block but little else useable.... so yes the Stroker Kit makes sense, IMO, stick with a Kit from a reputable supplier and have a Machine Shop check/Set Rod Bearing Clrc and Pin-Fit the Rod small ends and Piston Pin Bores.

"HP" is a function of Cylinder Head Flow.... that's it, that's all.... and a good base 'rule of thumb' in planning stages when targeting a Cylinder Head is to double whatever Head Flow is present for Cam Lift as the base "potential" for that head.
Obviously you can get MORE power.... again here.... it's just a very quick 'math' in the head thing ?
Problem being.... you can NOT trust some of the 'published' Cylinder Head Flow numbers from many Manufacturers.... Edelbrock being out to lunch !
For example of what I am talking about here:
If you look I believe Eddy publish 291 cfm @ .600" Lift for both their BB Mopar Performer rpm and the E-Street(same casting).... which by the info I've just provided would appear to suggest the Eddy's are showing close to 582/600 hp 'potential' OOTB as delivered.... which could be done but the Mech Roller Profile to cheat either THAT HIGH OOTB is un-streetable !
That said....
either of those Eddy Heads here on our SuperFlow SF750 Flow Bench typically much lower around ~270'ish ootb @ .600" Lift..... which IMO, 270 X 2 = 540HP is a more reasonable expectation to attain untouched ootb with those Heads.
for Comparison here...
The STEALTH Heads typicaly show us ~265'ish cfm @ .600" same/same within 5 crfm OOTB as delivered....
Either Head with just the application of a decent Valve Job and backcut adds 10-15 cfm..... good to around 550 hp

No matter... because TORQUE is king on the street, that's what you want and the Stroker will quite easily up the game in that area !   600= Ft/Lbs being what motivates 4,000 lb B-Bodies very nicely.

[Challenger340]

The stroker kit is a no brainer when starting with only a bare block. Anyone who is telling you to put hydraulic roller lifters in a big block mopar because its easy.... well, just run away.

I'm NOT a Fan of HR Cams in BB Mopars, IMO.... the Oil Gallery intersects the Lifter Bore too low on worn 50 year old Blocks to provide patent Oil Pressure seal versus the higher V/Spring pressures ?
Seen waaaay too many piss-poor results on the Dyno at higher rpm's with HR's in BB Mopars...... I wonder how many are out there 'thinking' their HR'd BB Mopars are the shit up high with NO access to real Dyno data ? or even worse using rear wheel Dyno data through amn auto with an HR Cam(Convertor Torque Multiplication trying to hide the drop off).... again here... thinking that must be all there is ?
just say'in here....
by the time you SPEND that Money on an HR Cam setup.... why not for the same Money just default to a tight lash Street Mechanical Roller ?
Because once stabilized and lashed correctly..... they run damn near dead nuts quiet.... but more importantly make REAL power and RPM compared to the mushy 'hydraulic' Roller junk.

Don't get me wrong.... HR's work GREAT in belly button brands/ferds/chebs.... we use them all the time in those applications with great success.
Unfortunately,
with BB Mopars we see rpm break down to at least some extent in at least 50-60% of BB Mopars with HR's.... attributable to the low Oil Gallery placement in the Lifter Bores in BB Mopars.

[Challenger340]

The stroker kit is a no brainer when starting with only a bare block. Anyone who is telling you to put hydraulic roller lifters in a big block mopar because its easy.... well, just run away.

I wonder how many of these guys saying this actually Engine DYNO the BB Mopars they are stuffing the HR's into ?

[c00nhunterjoe]

The stroker kit is a no brainer when starting with only a bare block. Anyone who is telling you to put hydraulic roller lifters in a big block mopar because its easy.... well, just run away.

I wonder how many of these guys saying this actually Engine DYNO the BB Mopars they are stuffing the HR's into ?

They do, but as you posted above to cheat the numbers. IMO the only time to run a hydraulic roller in a bb mopar is if you spend the time and money to bush the lifter bores to remedy the inherent design flaw for roller applications that you pointed out. But at that point, you might as well run a mechanical and enjoy the additional power over hydraulic. Like you said, choose a good profile and they are just as quiet. All of which is way overkill for the desired 500 hp the op wants.

[green69rt]

Listen to these guys, I built a 400 block stroker up to 470 CI.  It ended up with 455 HP and about 540  torque and that is with some lifter problems that haven't been resolved.  I would bet a little work will get up to 500 HP.   Single 4BBL and a mild cam.  These guys know because they have commented on my build.  You are at the exact same spot I was about 6 months ago.  I don't want a monster, just a nice running street machine.  The problem is to resist the urge to go BIG!   Stick to your guns and you will probably end up with more HP/Torque  than you planned and still enjoy the ride.  

I started to write some specs but these guys know their sh-t.  Just do it!

Edit, that's with a hydraulic FT.

[Challenger340]

The stroker kit is a no brainer when starting with only a bare block. Anyone who is telling you to put hydraulic roller lifters in a big block mopar because its easy.... well, just run away.

I wonder how many of these guys saying this actually Engine DYNO the BB Mopars they are stuffing the HR's into ?

They do, but as you posted above to cheat the numbers. IMO the only time to run a hydraulic roller in a bb mopar is if you spend the time and money to bush the lifter bores to remedy the inherent design flaw for roller applications that you pointed out. But at that point, you might as well run a mechanical and enjoy the additional power over hydraulic. Like you said, choose a good profile and they are just as quiet. All of which is way overkill for the desired 500 hp the op wants.

We spent a TON of money buying all the tooling to bush Mopar Lifter Bores, basically just to prove the problem on HR's.... bushed the Bores for HR's = problem solved, albeit still a 'hydraulic' power-wise.
That said,
by the time we've spent THAT kind of time/money doing the Lifter Bores ? just NOT worth it.... versus, just running a tight lash mech roller and problem solved for the same money as just the HR setup.... but MORE power/more rpm.
And very surprising hot quiet they can be made to run when setup properly.

Now all the nimrods can chime in.... "T run an HR in my BB Mopar, do it all the time and it's just FINE"
All I can say is "I want to see the Engine Dyno sheet and what it revv'd to"

[c00nhunterjoe]

The stroker kit is a no brainer when starting with only a bare block. Anyone who is telling you to put hydraulic roller lifters in a big block mopar because its easy.... well, just run away.

I wonder how many of these guys saying this actually Engine DYNO the BB Mopars they are stuffing the HR's into ?

They do, but as you posted above to cheat the numbers. IMO the only time to run a hydraulic roller in a bb mopar is if you spend the time and money to bush the lifter bores to remedy the inherent design flaw for roller applications that you pointed out. But at that point, you might as well run a mechanical and enjoy the additional power over hydraulic. Like you said, choose a good profile and they are just as quiet. All of which is way overkill for the desired 500 hp the op wants.

We spent a TON of money buying all the tooling to bush Mopar Lifter Bores, basically just to prove the problem on HR's.... bushed the Bores for HR's = problem solved, albeit still a 'hydraulic' power-wise.
That said,
by the time we've spent THAT kind of time/money doing the Lifter Bores ? just NOT worth it.... versus, just running a tight lash mech roller and problem solved for the same money as just the HR setup.... but MORE power/more rpm.
And very surprising hot quiet they can be made to run when setup properly.

Now all the nimrods can chime in.... "T run an HR in my BB Mopar, do it all the time and it's just FINE"
All I can say is "I want to see the Engine Dyno sheet and what it revv'd to"

Yup, exactly. Fwiw, my block is bushed, i run a HUGE mechanical roller on the street. Valvetrain is quiet, starts and idles with no problems, and goes through the 1/4 at 7400 rpm. It is crisp and responsive. No reason to run a hydraulic.

[cdr]

The stroker kit is a no brainer when starting with only a bare block. Anyone who is telling you to put hydraulic roller lifters in a big block mopar because its easy.... well, just run away.

I wonder how many of these guys saying this actually Engine DYNO the BB Mopars they are stuffing the HR's into ?

They do, but as you posted above to cheat the numbers. IMO the only time to run a hydraulic roller in a bb mopar is if you spend the time and money to bush the lifter bores to remedy the inherent design flaw for roller applications that you pointed out. But at that point, you might as well run a mechanical and enjoy the additional power over hydraulic. Like you said, choose a good profile and they are just as quiet. All of which is way overkill for the desired 500 hp the op wants.

We spent a TON of money buying all the tooling to bush Mopar Lifter Bores, basically just to prove the problem on HR's.... bushed the Bores for HR's = problem solved, albeit still a 'hydraulic' power-wise.
That said,
by the time we've spent THAT kind of time/money doing the Lifter Bores ? just NOT worth it.... versus, just running a tight lash mech roller and problem solved for the same money as just the HR setup.... but MORE power/more rpm.
And very surprising hot quiet they can be made to run when setup properly.

Now all the nimrods can chime in.... "T run an HR in my BB Mopar, do it all the time and it's just FINE"
All I can say is "I want to see the Engine Dyno sheet and what it revv'd to"

I run a Hydro Roller, would I recommend one ?? NO , I did it because it was said by MANY that the solid roller lifter would not last on the street ,,, That said DO NOT waste your money on a HYDRO Roller in a BB Mopar. I do have 10k miles on this Motor, 5 k with a flat tappet solid that went bad & now 5K since the refresh & hydro roller cam.

[Challenger340]

Let's put it this way....
how well a HR Cam works in a BB Mopar.... is directly proportional.... to the amount of wear concentrated in the bottom of the Lifter Bore, directly below the Oil Gallery.

Blocks woth little to no miles and little wear in the Lifter Bores having a better chance of maintaining patent Lifter pump up against the higher Hydraulic Roller V/Spring pressures without excessive Hydraulic Lifter bleed down @ rpm..... then their high mileage brethren ?

[cdr]

Let's put it this way....
how well a HR Cam works in a BB Mopar.... is directly proportional.... to the amount of wear concentrated in the bottom of the Lifter Bore, directly below the Oil Gallery.

Blocks woth little to no miles and little wear in the Lifter Bores having a better chance of maintaining patent Lifter pump up against the higher Hydraulic Roller V/Spring pressures without excessive Hydraulic Lifter bleed down @ rpm..... then their high mileage brethren ?

Bob, as time & miles have gone by, I ended up having to set the lash .020 from the bottom to keep the noise down from the oil bleed by, 

[c00nhunterjoe]

Let's put it this way....
how well a HR Cam works in a BB Mopar.... is directly proportional.... to the amount of wear concentrated in the bottom of the Lifter Bore, directly below the Oil Gallery.

Blocks woth little to no miles and little wear in the Lifter Bores having a better chance of maintaining patent Lifter pump up against the higher Hydraulic Roller V/Spring pressures without excessive Hydraulic Lifter bleed down @ rpm..... then their high mileage brethren ?

Bob, as time & miles have gone by, I ended up having to set the lash .020 from the bottom to keep the noise down from the oil bleed by, 

Which pretty much makes it a solid. 

[cdr]

Let's put it this way....
how well a HR Cam works in a BB Mopar.... is directly proportional.... to the amount of wear concentrated in the bottom of the Lifter Bore, directly below the Oil Gallery.

Blocks woth little to no miles and little wear in the Lifter Bores having a better chance of maintaining patent Lifter pump up against the higher Hydraulic Roller V/Spring pressures without excessive Hydraulic Lifter bleed down @ rpm..... then their high mileage brethren ?

Bob, as time & miles have gone by, I ended up having to set the lash .020 from the bottom to keep the noise down from the oil bleed by, 

Which pretty much makes it a solid. 

Yep, 

[Nickrc3]

Update: I had the privilege of speaking extensively with Dwayne Porter regarding my requirements for this 440 build.
He shall be performing the head inspection and Stage 1 porting, along with providing the camshaft and lifters.

Now ordered and being shipped:

* 440 Source, 512 balanced stroker kit, .030/27cc dished pistons
* Oil pan (6 Qt.), 3/8"pickup, and windage tray
* Edelbrock E-street 84cc cylinder heads

Dwayne shall provide the appropriate hydraulic flat tappet camshaft w/ lifter set, matched to my desired RPM/compression ratio and related components.
Yes, no roller. After everyone's comments here, along with many others, I now realize Mopar big block's are not good candidates for roller camshafts. The savings shall be spent on a quality set of roller rockers.

I thank everyone for their inputs, opinions and direction in part selection.

Green69RT - I have followed your build from the beginning and really admire your DIY skills and determination in completing the project. Thank you for all your posts and providing simplified clarity so others can possibly mimic your actions.

[cdr]

Update: I had the privilege of speaking extensively with Dwayne Porter regarding my requirements for this 440 build.
He shall be performing the head inspection and Stage 1 porting, along with providing the camshaft and lifters.

Now ordered and being shipped:

* 440 Source, 512 balanced stroker kit, .030/27cc dished pistons
* Oil pan (6 Qt.), 3/8"pickup, and windage tray
* Edelbrock E-street 84cc cylinder heads

Dwayne shall provide the appropriate hydraulic flat tappet camshaft w/ lifter set, matched to my desired RPM/compression ratio and related components.
Yes, no roller. After everyone's comments here, along with many others, I now realize Mopar big block's are not good candidates for roller camshafts. The savings shall be spent on a quality set of roller rockers.

I thank everyone for their inputs, opinions and direction in part selection.

Green69RT - I have followed your build from the beginning and really admire your DIY skills and determination in completing the project. Thank you for all your posts and providing simplified clarity so others can possibly mimic your actions.

GREAT choice with Dwayne !!!!

[c00nhunterjoe]

Dwayne will make those heads scream and with a 512, you will be WELL over your expectations