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Author Topic: What is correct?  (Read 1728 times)
Phillibuster
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« on: August 24, 2020, 11:26:26 AM »

I was watching an episode of GYC and they were restoring a Charger Daytona and appeared to be doing a nice job. But I noticed that the radiator intake grill on the nose was a honeycomb pattern whilst mine and many other Daytonas have a slotted pattern?  Is the honeycomb style proper or was the a shortage of slotted inlet grills? Just curious. Or perhaps a design change? Early vs.late build date?
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Mopar John
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2020, 03:16:57 PM »

This honey comb Daytona grill has been discussed several times in the past.
I used to own a Daytona that had one of these honey comb grill's at least back to 1973.
My take is that when the Superbirds came out they superceded the Daytona replacement part to the same material.
There are some that claim they know of Daytona's that had them from the beginning?
MJ


* IMG__2937.JPG (392.21 KB, 1600x1200 - viewed 686 times.)
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69_500
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2020, 07:16:58 PM »

This honey comb Daytona grill has been discussed several times in the past.
I used to own a Daytona that had one of these honey comb grill's at least back to 1973.
My take is that when the Superbirds came out they superceded the Daytona replacement part to the same material.
There are some that claim they know of Daytona's that had them from the beginning?
MJ

Jon your red car was the only older pic I could find of a car without the rectangular one.
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odcics2
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2020, 05:06:39 AM »


Still, I'd like to see a photo surface of a new Daytona, at Creative, with a hexagon screen.  Twocents

That would settle the debate for sure!   2thumbs
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69_500
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2020, 02:33:27 PM »


Still, I'd like to see a photo surface of a new Daytona, at Creative, with a hexagon screen.  Twocents

That would settle the debate for sure!   2thumbs

I don't think you will ever find that. The pics of the cars on the lot at Creative shows a rectangle screen on the only car you can see the center of the nose cone.
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odcics2
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2020, 04:20:08 PM »

Iíll have to look for the rest of those pics.
I have a few more I never released to the public.
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held1823
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2020, 09:05:30 AM »

I have a few more I never released to the public.

curious as to the logic behind this. not even a question, but more an expression of my dumbfounded lack of understanding

 yours is a name synonymous with wing cars and one i recall from decades ago. the trove of info and photos was gifted to you, so it is now yours to do with as you choose. you have shared a great number of pieces over the years, and i count myself among those grateful for that. i'm sure you have your reasons to keep much of it hidden, although i will never grasp what could be even remotely satisfying about that.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
nascarxx29
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2020, 11:10:14 AM »

What grille material is used in the taped out headlight white Daytona with 3 hood pins a regular window
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2†Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
odcics2
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2020, 04:40:41 PM »

I have a few more I never released to the public.

curious as to the logic behind this. not even a question, but more an expression of my dumbfounded lack of understanding

 yours is a name synonymous with wing cars and one i recall from decades ago. the trove of info and photos was gifted to you, so it is now yours to do with as you choose. you have shared a great number of pieces over the years, and i count myself among those grateful for that. i'm sure you have your reasons to keep much of it hidden, although i will never grasp what could be even remotely satisfying about that.

Simply tired of my photos being poached, copied and sold, and used in various publications
for profit by others.  Note: I have worked WITH authors and lent them pics for publications.
It makes a difference if a guy asks...

Gifted??  You have no idea of the money I have invested in a lot of what I have accumulated.
I BOUGHT a bunch of stuff from Larry Rathgeb, over many years.
I also spend dough on ebay photos, press kits and other wing memorabilia.

There is a ton on aerowarriors.com that I donated for
wing enthusiasts to enjoy.
Those were getting poached and resold!
Ken had to spend considerable time to watermark them.

I hope you have enjoyed the Bill Wright Archives. Those I was actually "gifted",
thanks to Paul Wright, Bill's son.  All I had to do was drive 20 hours to get them!   2thumbs 

Hope this helps satisfy your curiosity.
Actually Ernie, I was surprised that you would
post something like this.
I always thought you were a stand up guy.

Here's a photo of the cars getting loaded at Creative Industries.
The first car loaded has a horizontal screen. Notice it has no rubber seal, valance to crossmember area.
Second car loaded has the rocker molding! 


* a photo for ernie!.jpg (94.05 KB, 455x348 - viewed 508 times.)
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odcics2
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2020, 04:44:33 PM »

What grille material is used in the taped out headlight white Daytona with 3 hood pins a regular window
Excellent question!
Guessing whatever they had around at the time???

Anyone have an original press photo of the white press car?
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moparstuart
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2020, 05:50:43 PM »

When i bought my superbird nose cone it had Daytona mesh in it.   It had been hanging in the rafters of a Body Shop since the Mid 70's 


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odcics2
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2020, 05:59:35 PM »

When i bought my superbird nose cone it had Daytona mesh in it.   It had been hanging in the rafters of a Body Shop since the Mid 70's 

I could see a Bird with a Daytona screen, even a new one, since the horizontal screen existed since the summer of 69.

But, a Daytona built at Creative with a Bird screen that didn't exist yet is hard to believe.   shruggy

That being said, nobody knows everything!   A vintage photo, even a Daytona coming off a Creative Hauler with a Bird screen
would settle the debate.   

thanks for posting the pic.   cheers
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odcics2
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2020, 06:01:00 PM »


Still, I'd like to see a photo surface of a new Daytona, at Creative, with a hexagon screen.  Twocents

That would settle the debate for sure!   2thumbs

I don't think you will ever find that. The pics of the cars on the lot at Creative shows a rectangle screen on the only car you can see the center of the nose cone.

Car lower right is also rectangle...
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hemigeno
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2020, 07:44:25 PM »


Anyone have an original press photo of the white press car?

I do have an original photo of that white car (69-2980), and it has rectangular mesh.  That's the same car in the Talladega race program advertisement.  There's also another early, unnumbered press photo of a different car with W11 wheel covers that has rectangular mesh (a couple of different poses).  The Creative Industries mock-up photo dated 3/31/69 doesn't show any mesh at all, because there's no opening cut into the nose's leading edge.  I think they were still deciding how large to make the slot (the artists renderings of the street and race Daytonas show the slot extending most of the way across the nose's width).  Then there's the Fleet Engineering parts list provided to Creative Industries (no, not the Chrysler Parts Book list - but that shows rectangular mesh too!) which gives the original mesh's manufacturer name and pattern number.

Besides the lack of photographic evidence which supports its use by Creative Industries, one of the biggest reasons to rule out honeycomb/hexagon mesh as an original-equipment part has to do with the turn signals.  I have a copy of the looong report Chrysler submitted to the Feds / DOT during the summer of 1969, which details all of the testing and documentation they went through to show the turn signals emitted enough light from behind the mesh - including at specific side angles, etc.  That report documents every component, down to the screws/washers and spacers... which affected the mounting angle of the turn signal inside the nosecone.  A different mesh, with a different amount of openness (especially if viewed from an obtuse angle) would have negated their DOT reports.  That could have easily caused the car's safety certification to be pulled, and Dodge never would have risked that.  Y'think Ford would have hesitated one second to bring this to the DOT's attention?

I've said this before, but I don't doubt that honeycomb/hexagon Daytona mesh material was sold by Chrysler as an over-the-counter replacement part.  Anyone who's driven one of these cars can attest to how easy it is to bend that mesh by bumping into something... like a short garage backwall stud, as most were at the time.  You can even partially wrinkle it with your knee.  I can't say when any other material started being sold in lieu of the original stuff, but it is a really safe bet (for me, anyway) to say that it wasn't during the initial shipment of the Daytonas.  It was probably after the introduction of the Superbird, but that's just a guess.  Your mileage may vary. 

 cheers
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held1823
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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2020, 06:58:50 AM »


Actually Ernie, I was surprised that you would post something like this.
I always thought you were a stand up guy.

Greg, there was no malice intended in the comment.  I did mention the vast amount of stuff you have shared over time. I can surely speak for many others when i say thank you. The only thing I regret is using the words "gifted with", when i actually meant blessed with. I won't drag his name into this,but I had a chat with another of the prominent members of the aero car world yesterday afternoon. He could tell you that I hoped my words were not taken as hostile.  I have no doubt your investment is off the chart, in both monetary figures and time. As I said, you have been a name within this niche for many years, and it is a given that you didn't have to share anything.

You cleared up my thoughts on it being less than satisfying when you mentioned other people profiting from your generosity. I'd like to sit here and think that this would not stop me from sharing any history i held on these cars, but until and unless i walked in your shoes regarding it, i could not be certain beyond a doubt. I am guilty of subscribing to my friend larry bell's school of thought on photos, etc, that being there is zero value in them wasting away in a shoe box tucked away in the closet. even his story might be different, had he suffered the same disregard as your items have.

I am not one given to defending my honor or the perception of me being a stand up guy. I was raised to speak my mind and also to understand that not everyone would necessarily agree with me. I am blessed to have many "online" friends here, and a good number of real world ones that i have met over the years of being a part of this board.  I may not share every belief with you, but do know that I am appreciative of your contributions, both here  and through numerous other channels. I certainly consider you a stand up guy, and i want to thank you again for your contributions to this hobby
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2020, 01:31:50 PM »

All I had to do was drive 20 hours to get them!  
...
Hope this helps satisfy your curiosity.
...

This is what I, as a "little fish" mostly lurking here appreciate, all the time the people put in, really devoting their lives not only with their research but with their willingness to help anybody with a question.  odcics2, Aero426, nascarxx29, those people such as hemigeno, taxspeaker, Troy and Mopar John and others who've documented their meticulous restorations, have kept the story of these historic vehicles alive.  Also the registries that Homerr and Ghoste have put the time and effort into. Of course many, many others, but all greatly, greatly appreciated.
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69_500
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2020, 03:02:51 PM »

I am very thankful for all the pics you have shared over the years Greg. It was also a blast chatting with you years ago at the Concourse event there in Detroit. We spent quite a bit of time talking about the differences in hoods on Daytona's and 70 Charger hoods.

That being said, there is a lot of pictures and info on these cars out there in different peoples hands. I have been blessed to get to see some private collections and papers over the years.

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DAY CLONA
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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2020, 12:09:54 AM »

What grille material is used in the taped out headlight white Daytona with 3 hood pins a regular window



Hmmmmmm? looks to me it's honeycomb.....

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odcics2
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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2020, 05:10:47 AM »

 shruggy

pixelated closeups fuzz up the answer!!

Maybe Gene can post the real photo ?

Quality should be better than a magazine pic.  


What about the other stuff "different" in the photo?
No scoops, 3 hood pins, no holes under the nose, drawn on headlight doors, spoiler wrong, etc., and the description is full of
errors!!   Yet we are looking at a nose screen stuffed into a mock up as "proof"!    smilielol


* screen diamond pattern.jpg (15.36 KB, 201x201 - viewed 340 times.)
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Aero426
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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2020, 07:40:41 AM »



Don't forget, they had to clay the front of the hood on that white junker to make it work.      This car should not even be in the discussion.   It's a mock-up for a photo shoot.

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hemigeno
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2020, 08:18:48 AM »


Maybe Gene can post the real photo ?

Quality should be better than a magazine pic.  



I second-guessed myself after seeing the pics in Mike's post, so I drug out the photo and a magnifying glass again today.  I cannot see hatching in the grille opening, nor can I make out the turn signals.  

My earlier conclusion was based on the second photo of that white car on the same sheet - the left-front-quarter photo of the car sitting in the grass, which is printed below the full frontal track shot.  In that photo, you can barely make out (what I interpret as) faint vertical lines of rectangular mesh.  The detail is probably too nuanced to transfer in a 400KB file.

I don't have any photo evidence which supports the honeycomb/hexagonal mesh myself.  That's not to say it absolutely doesn't exist, but I don't have such.  What I DO have is a ton of other info which backs up rectangular mesh.  The enlargement in Mike's post above is not the same shot that I have, at least without being "enhanced" in some fashion.


Don't forget, they had to clay the front of the hood on that white junker to make it work.      This car should not even be in the discussion.   It's a mock-up for a photo shoot.
iagree



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odcics2
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2020, 12:49:28 PM »

  
Hey, it's only a mock up!   yesnod
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DAY CLONA
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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2020, 05:10:03 PM »

   Yet we are looking at a nose screen stuffed into a mock up as "proof"!    smilielol


The pics were in response to Dave's request about the "mock-up" white press Daytona, which clearly has a honeycomb screen....you need to improve your reading comprehension  icon_smile_big

Mike
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« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2020, 05:19:54 PM »


I don't have any photo evidence which supports the honeycomb/hexagonal mesh myself.  That's not to say it absolutely doesn't exist, but I don't have such.  What I DO have is a ton of other info which backs up rectangular mesh.  The enlargement in Mike's post above is not the same shot that I have, at least without being "enhanced" in some fashion.






Cover shot....

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nascarxx29
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« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2020, 08:14:57 PM »

Couldn't see he's blocking it
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,41312.0.html
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1969 R4 Daytona XX29L9B410772
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23UOA174597
1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2†Superbird RM23VOA179697
1968 426 Road Runner RM21J8A134509
1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
1970 Daytona Clone XP29GOG178701
odcics2
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2020, 06:11:48 AM »


I don't have any photo evidence which supports the honeycomb/hexagonal mesh myself.  That's not to say it absolutely doesn't exist, but I don't have such.  What I DO have is a ton of other info which backs up rectangular mesh.  The enlargement in Mike's post above is not the same shot that I have, at least without being "enhanced" in some fashion.






Cover shot....

On my laptop, I see a diamond pattern on the close up of the mock up "Daytona"... 
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hemigeno
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2020, 12:31:53 PM »

Quote from: hemigeno

I don't have any photo evidence from Chrysler which supports the honeycomb/hexagonal mesh myself.  That's not to say it absolutely doesn't exist, but I don't have such.  What I DO have is a ton of other info from Chrysler which backs up rectangular mesh.  The enlargement in Mike's post above is not the same shot that I have, at least without being "enhanced" in some fashion.


Cover shot....


There - fixed it.

Are we going down the road of suggesting that round turn signals (that's the way they look to me) were also an alternative component, in lieu of rectangular Valiant T/S's?

Maybe there's a reason Chrysler essentially blacked-out the grille in their own public relations photos...    shruggy

I stand by this:
Besides the lack of photographic evidence which supports its use by Creative Industries, one of the biggest reasons to rule out honeycomb/hexagon mesh as an original-equipment part has to do with the turn signals.  I have a copy of the looong report Chrysler submitted to the Feds / DOT during the summer of 1969, which details all of the testing and documentation they went through to show the turn signals emitted enough light from behind the mesh - including at specific side angles, etc.  That report documents every component, down to the screws/washers and spacers... which affected the mounting angle of the turn signal inside the nosecone.  A different mesh, with a different amount of openness (especially if viewed from an obtuse angle) would have negated their DOT reports.  That could have easily caused the car's safety certification to be pulled, and Dodge never would have risked that.  Y'think Ford would have hesitated one second to bring this to the DOT's attention?


My opinion does not matter more than anyone else's.  If a person happens to disagree, that's perfectly fine, we can agree to disagree.  I've stated my opinion, which combined with a dollar, might get you a cup of coffee somewhere. 

 cheers

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Dave Kanofsky
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WING IT ! !


« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2020, 05:36:09 AM »

I've stated my opinion, which combined with a dollar, might get you a cup of coffee somewhere. 

 cheers

Here it is!  But you need to have the app...


* 1dollarcoffee.JPG (43.21 KB, 428x594 - viewed 84 times.)
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hemigeno
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« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2020, 07:40:31 AM »

I've stated my opinion, which combined with a dollar, might get you a cup of coffee somewhere. 

 cheers

Here it is!  But you need to have the app...


 2thumbs   Perfect!
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