cam choice

[flyinlow]

Time to pick a cam for my Son's 505 build. 1970 Charger.  Garage elevation 1000 feet MSL.

440/505  4.25 stroke/4.350 bore
deck height 10.706
Mopar 452 alum. heads   84cc  stock
1.5 ratio Mancini roller tip rockers
10.3 CR
.045 quench
17cc dished pistons
performer RPM intake
780 Quickfuel carb
Hedman headers

4L60 transmission OD
close to stock converter
4:10 axle
Copper Cobras 28 inch tires

Used for cruising around in , burnouts, generally annoying people that are Twitter addicts' and occasional dragstrip .  Must live with power brakes. Long engine life ,normal maintenance. Wide torque band preferred.

Thinking about solid lifter flat tappet. EDM lifters.

Opinions please.

[Mike DC]

               
No comments on the cam, but I would vote to raise that axle gear.  Maybe 3.73.  

The 4L60E has a really low 1st gear.  Much lower than a torqueflite.  That combo of 4L60E + 4.10 axle . . . the first gear ratio ends up like a torqueflite + 4.88 axle.  

Even with the 4th overdrive gear, at 75 mph on the highway your combo will be revving up near 3000 RPM (with a non-locking converter) if you keep the 4.10 axle.  It's not a bad RPM by old muscle car standards but it's high by modern standards.    


If the car was mine I might use 3.55 gears.  But I definitely like my gears on the tall side.  It takes a conservative cam & converter (at least for the motor size) to work with that setup.  And with a 4L60E trans, that 1st-2nd gear drop would get more annoying as the axle gear gets taller.  

           

[Challenger340]

I as well would reconsider the Rear Gearing to 3.73 for sure.... possibly even 3.55's depending upon the actual diameter of the Cooper's.

The 4.25" Stroke eats Cam Duration @ .050.... consider the Comp Cams XS282S widened to a 112* LSA as a good baseline default Cam selection.
However, from there ?
and devoid of any actual Flow data on your Heads ?
IMO, there are very few hp/trq are to be gained using anything else more akin to just chasing your tail.

[flyinlow]

The 4: 10 axle was in the car when my Son bought it. Put a 3.23 in it until we installed the OD Transmission. Yea the 4:10 with the 3.06 first gear helped the smog motor that was in it get moving. I suggested he replace the 8 3/4 with an S60 . 3.73 sounds good.

I have a noisy 3.55 in my Charger with the A518. Maybe I can get a package deal on two S60's with 3.73 ratio  

[flyinlow]

I as well would reconsider the Rear Gearing to 3.73 for sure.... possibly even 3.55's depending upon the actual diameter of the Cooper's.

The 4.25" Stroke eats Cam Duration @ .050.... consider the Comp Cams XS282S widened to a 112* LSA as a good baseline default Cam selection.
However, from there ?
and devoid of any actual Flow data on your Heads ?
IMO, there are very few hp/trq are to be gained using anything else more akin to just chasing your tail.

I was looking at that cam last night. Why change to 112* LSA?  Looked at the XS274s also for drivability.

So as a rule of thumb for every 50 cu.in. you go up you can increase your duration by one step and keep the drivability about the same?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I like the xs282 as well. The "stockish" converter leaves alot to the imagination. 4l60s had alot of options when it comes to stock. Depending on how tight it actually is and swinging a 4.25 crank around, i would personally go up a size from the 282 with a 4.10 gear having an overdrive.

[flyinlow]

I like the xs282 as well. The "stockish" converter leaves alot to the imagination. 4l60s had alot of options when it comes to stock. Depending on how tight it actually is and swinging a 4.25 crank around, i would personally go up a size from the 282 with a 4.10 gear having an overdrive.

Well that's 3 votes for the xs282s.

The 4l60 was a Silver State Kit . Picked up new but stored for 5 years from a guy who sold the car for financial reasons before he installed it and he gave me a price I could not turn down. Don't know the stall. 2400 RPM with the old motor ? It could spin the 275/60 Coopers but it worked at it. I know we have some drive train upgrades to do if he ever wants stickier tires.

[Mike DC]

                                        


Building a big stroker to blow the tires off, and adding sticky tires?  Opposing goals.  


Tell him to get rear tires that look as big & cool as he wants but don't go for sticky compounds/models.  He will have more fun.  The grip will be tolerable without breaking everything.    

Besides, any modern tire might as well be a drag slick by 1960s-70s standards.  It's all about perspective.      

Just my opinion.  

[Challenger340]

I as well would reconsider the Rear Gearing to 3.73 for sure.... possibly even 3.55's depending upon the actual diameter of the Cooper's.

The 4.25" Stroke eats Cam Duration @ .050.... consider the Comp Cams XS282S widened to a 112* LSA as a good baseline default Cam selection.
However, from there ?
and devoid of any actual Flow data on your Heads ?
IMO, there are very few hp/trq are to be gained using anything else more akin to just chasing your tail.

I was looking at that cam last night. Why change to 112* LSA?  Looked at the XS274s also for drivability.

So as a rule of thumb for every 50 cumin, you go up, you can increase your duration by one step and keep the drivability about the same?

The 282 will be easily streetable over the 4.250" arm, again here.... Stroke eats Cam duration for breakfast, and the 274 would be too small. 

112* lsa is mainly to improve Pwr Brake vacuum, however, widening the lsa also flattens/widens the Torque curve slightly,
but that said,
unless he plans on riding the brakes constantly in parking lots the 110 lsa will work for normal driving.

[flyinlow]

Having trouble finding Comp Cam solid lifter cams in stock. Comp cams has none ,and no blanks for a custom.

Questions:

Is nitriding still desirable?

Are Johnson lifters still the best choice ?

Is a three bolt cam required . If I use ARP bolt /red Loctite?

[Nacho-RT74]

Maybe:

https://pitstopusa.com/i-23911199-comp-cams-bb-chrysler-xtreme-solid-cam-xs282s.html

[Eldovert]

Having trouble finding Comp Cam solid lifter cams in stock. Comp cams has none ,and no blanks for a custom.

Questions:

Is nitriding still desirable?

Are Johnson lifters still the best choice ?

Is a three bolt cam required . If I use ARP bolt /red Loctite?

Just get a hydraulic (if they have them)and run solids

I hear Comp is getting other companies to help with cams (staffing issues?)

[flyinlow]

Thanks Nacho I found that earlier ,it is a single bolt.


Hydrualics are more available.

Will check with Comp and see if I buy one of there cams if I can send it in for nitriding. 
.

[Eldovert]

Not quite sure of the details..sounds like Comp bought Edelbrock and they are moving operations to Mississippi..that would explain the lack of stock at Comp.

[flyinlow]

If I look at hydraulic roller cams

Hughes recommended SER3842bl-10  238/242 @ .050 , .540/.550 lift with 1.5 ratio   110 LSA   this cam is not billet and they said and does not require a bronze or treated gear

Comp23-712-9  xr286hr-10 grind    236/242  @.050 , .544/.544 lift  1.5 ratio, 110LSA  , billet cam

both in stock

opinions?

[Challenger340]

If I look at hydraulic roller cams

Hughes recommended SER3842bl-10  238/242 @ .050 , .540/.550 lift with 1.5 ratio   110 LSA   this cam is not billet and they said and does not require a bronze or treated gear

Comp23-712-9  xr286hr-10 grind    236/242  @.050 , .544/.544 lift  1.5 ratio, 110LSA  , billet cam

both in stock

opinions?

Why look at HR Cams ?
We've basically discontinued using HR's now entirely in BB Mopars ..... because without Bushing the Lifter Bores in the BB Mopar Blocks($1,000 hit) for patent HR Lifter sealing against the higher V/Spring pressure requirement ?
We just could never prove any power increases on the Dyno with HR's in NON-Bushed 50 year old worn Blocks/Lifter Bores to justify the added expense nor full range rpm stability ?
Bottom line = Lifter Bores are too short in a BB Mopar with the Oil Gallery positioned far to low in that 50 year old BB Mopars worn Lifter Bores for patent sealing against the higher HR V/Spring pressures in most 50 years old worn Blocks ?
That said...
Even a blind chicken gets the odd kernel of corn.....
and you too may install an HR Cam in your BB Mopar without Bushing the Lifter Bores and get lucky... works fine ? or so you think ?
All I'm saying is this:
1.) we Dyno every BB Mopar Engine before it leaves.... and we don't use an HR Cam in them anymore unless the customer opts for us to bush the Lifter Bores as well($1,000)
2.) by the time we bush the Lifter Bores in the BB Mopar for patent HR usage..... we never found sufficient power on the Dyno from the HR Cams to justify the added expense.... let be sufficiently above a well selected Solid Flat Tappet Cam of the same Size....or even just skipping Bushing the Lifter Bores entirely and running a Tight Lash Mechanical STREET Roller Cam.... which DOES make waaaay more power !
But as always...
You believe whatever you want and do as you think is best.... it's YOUR Engine.

If you do opt for a Solid Flat Tappet Cam ? get it Nitrided, and use an EDM Lifter (NON Topline Johnson as they are gone now I believe)
IMO....
if you do want Roller.? ... skip the HR garbage and go straight to a Tight Lash STREET profile Mechanical Roller....
which,
the STREET Mechanical Roller Cams are also known for curing all forms of depression and anxiety, and requiring a 2X4 to wipe the smile off even the most ardent Drag Racer's face !

[c00nhunterjoe]

 

[Q5XX29]

I run a Bullet cams flat-tappet solid in a 500 B engine, with 251/255 duration @ 0.050, 570/580 gross lift, 110 LSA, full weight '68 Charger with 3.91 gears and 3800 stall, runs 11.40s all night in the hot summer with DA of 3,000, on drag radials. Oh yeah, power brakes and no vacuum issues. Mildly ported Edelbrock heads and Mopar M1 intake. Sees mostly street use, where it runs reliable and cool.

[BSB67]

I run a Bullet cams flat-tappet solid in a 500 B engine, with 251/255 duration @ 0.050, 570/580 gross lift, 110 LSA, full weight '68 Charger with 3.91 gears and 3800 stall, runs 11.40s all night in the hot summer with DA of 3,000, on drag radials. Oh yeah, power brakes and no vacuum issues. Mildly ported Edelbrock heads and Mopar M1 intake. Sees mostly street use, where it runs reliable and cool.

Nice.  60 ft 1.70s?, mph 119 ish?

[Q5XX29]

Thank you.  60' times on a good run are 1.56-1.59 range. It launches great. Mph, disappointingly, is only 116-117. Maybe you have some idea why that might be?

[Challenger340]

Thank you.  60' times on a good run are 1.56-1.59 range. It launches great. Mph, disappointingly, is only 116-117. Maybe you have some idea why that might be?

Just curious.... what rpm are you shifting at ? and through the traps ?

[Q5XX29]

Thank you.  60' times on a good run are 1.56-1.59 range. It launches great. Mph, disappointingly, is only 116-117. Maybe you have some idea why that might be?

Just curious.... what rpm are you shifting at ? and through the traps ?

Have tried shifting anywhere from 5900 to 6200, and it doesn't seem to make too much difference. Its my 20 year-old son's Charger, but I've driven it downtrack several times too. If I recall correctly, I thought it was getting fairly close to redline again going through the traps, because I remember thinking we couldn't go up much more than maybe 4.10s.. but now that I run the tire/gear calculator, with the 29.5" tall tires we run at the dragstip, it should be only at about 5350 at 117 mph, so could we be losing THAT much through the converter?  Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack.

[Q5XX29]

Thank you.  60' times on a good run are 1.56-1.59 range. It launches great. Mph, disappointingly, is only 116-117. Maybe you have some idea why that might be?

Just curious.... what rpm are you shifting at ? and through the traps ?

Have tried shifting anywhere from 5900 to 6200, and it doesn't seem to make too much difference. Its my 20 year-old son's Charger, but I've driven it downtrack several times too. If I recall correctly, I thought it was getting fairly close to redline again going through the traps, because I remember thinking we couldn't go up much more than maybe 4.10s..  According to a tire/gear calculator, with my 27.6" tall tires, I should be at around 5700-5800 at 117 rpm.
Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack.

edited to correct for my tire size comment

[flyinlow]

/quote]


No worry's.  It was interesting reading.

[Challenger340]

Thank you.  60' times on a good run are 1.56-1.59 range. It launches great. Mph, disappointingly, is only 116-117. Maybe you have some idea why that might be?

Just curious.... what rpm are you shifting at ? and through the traps ?

Have tried shifting anywhere from 5900 to 6200, and it doesn't seem to make too much difference. Its my 20 year-old son's Charger, but I've driven it downtrack several times too. If I recall correctly, I thought it was getting fairly close to redline again going through the traps, because I remember thinking we couldn't go up much more than maybe 4.10s.. but now that I run the tire/gear calculator, with the 29.5" tall tires we run at the dragstip, it should be only at about 5350 at 117 mph, so could we be losing THAT much through the converter?  Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack.

I'm thinking your stellar 60ft times ? are coming at least somewhat at the expense of patent rotary flow/closer to lockup Convertor function of that Convertor in the Heavy car ?
just say'in....
FULL stall is 100% axial flow and 0% rotary flow in the Convertor....
and as the rear wheels turn faster and faster....
the Convertor should try to transmit more and more to the wheels as it reverses Torque Multiplication and approaches 3,4,5% ? axial flow and transmits 95% rotary flow ?
Don't SHOOT me for the readers digest version.... far more going on obviously just simplified for conversation.

No matter....
60 ft times are very important to E.T. at the Drag Strip because anything GAINED or LOST in 60ft time you can almost DOUBLE off or on to the E.T.
If you want MORE mph at the traps ?
the trick will be to finding a Convertor capable of more efficient closer to lock up at mph.... whilst still capable of the low 60ft times that YOU DO NOT WANT TO LOSE !
let me guess here....
any chance your Convertor is a store bought stocking unit and may be a little too loose for the Heavy Car ?
That said,
It can get pretty expensive opting for custom convertors trying for more mph and maintaining that all important to E.T. 60ft characteristic ?

IMO, 4.10's on the 29.5's is puss... stay there !

[Q5XX29]

Thank you.  60' times on a good run are 1.56-1.59 range. It launches great. Mph, disappointingly, is only 116-117. Maybe you have some idea why that might be?

Just curious.... what rpm are you shifting at ? and through the traps ?

Have tried shifting anywhere from 5900 to 6200, and it doesn't seem to make too much difference. Its my 20 year-old son's Charger, but I've driven it downtrack several times too. If I recall correctly, I thought it was getting fairly close to redline again going through the traps, because I remember thinking we couldn't go up much more than maybe 4.10s.. but now that I run the tire/gear calculator, with the 29.5" tall tires we run at the dragstip, it should be only at about 5350 at 117 mph, so could we be losing THAT much through the converter?  Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack.

I'm thinking your stellar 60ft times ? are coming at least somewhat at the expense of patent rotary flow/closer to lockup Convertor function of that Convertor in the Heavy car ?
just say'in....
FULL stall is 100% axial flow and 0% rotary flow in the Convertor....
and as the rear wheels turn faster and faster....
the Convertor should try to transmit more and more to the wheels as it reverses Torque Multiplication and approaches 3,4,5% ? axial flow and transmits 95% rotary flow ?
Don't SHOOT me for the readers digest version.... far more going on obviously just simplified for conversation.

No matter....
60 ft times are very important to E.T. at the Drag Strip because anything GAINED or LOST in 60ft time you can almost DOUBLE off or on to the E.T.
If you want MORE mph at the traps ?
the trick will be to finding a Convertor capable of more efficient closer to lock up at mph.... whilst still capable of the low 60ft times that YOU DO NOT WANT TO LOSE !
let me guess here....
any chance your Convertor is a store bought stocking unit and may be a little too loose for the Heavy Car ?
That said,
It can get pretty expensive opting for custom convertors trying for more mph and maintaining that all important to E.T. 60ft characteristic ?

IMO, 4.10's on the 29.5's is puss... stay there !

Thank you, I think you are right. I don't know if you saw my corrected post, after I realized that my drag radials were actually only 27.6" tall. Anyway, 3.91s on 27.6" tires, or if I did go up to 4.10s (which I think I still have the engine rpms for, before the end of the quarter) do seem to be a successful combo for me. The stall converter isn't a terribly cheap one- it is an FTI 3500 stall 9.5" billet street race non-lockup converter. Another thought I had is that the header size I have is probably a tad on the small size. I reused the hooker 1 7/8" ones I had previously on the car because they were still pretty new, but my engine builder said he found over 50 hp on my engine combo when he used 2 1/8" over the 1 7/8" headers. I dunno. Seems that BSB67 with his higher trap speeds using just factory exhaust manifolds does alright with those! But lots of variables. As stated, we seem to be getting ALL of the power to the ground on the launch, and have consistently crappy DA at our track, so all things considered we are very happy.  

[c00nhunterjoe]

2 1/4 tubes are pretty massive. I dont recall your build but ive seen best results with step headers in most race applications. Bsb67 (russ) running manifolds has a cam grind specific for the manifolds and even then, would stilm pickup alot with a longtube swap, but his build was specifically for him.

[Q5XX29]

2 1/4 tubes are pretty massive. I dont recall your build but ive seen best results with step headers in most race applications. Bsb67 (russ) running manifolds has a cam grind specific for the manifolds and even then, would stilm pickup alot with a longtube swap, but his build was specifically for him.

Sorry, I meant 2 1/8" headers, which I still thought sounded pretty big, but he said he dyno'd my combo with both and that's what it liked best. What you said about Russ' application makes sense, thanks.

(Edited my above comment to reflect the correct header size )

[Challenger340]

2 1/4 tubes are pretty massive. I dont recall your build but ive seen best results with step headers in most race applications. Bsb67 (russ) running manifolds has a cam grind specific for the manifolds and even then, would stilm pickup alot with a longtube swap, but his build was specifically for him.

Sorry, I meant 2 1/8" headers, which I still thought sounded pretty big, but he said he dyno'd my combo with both and that's what it liked best. What you said about Russ' application makes sense, thanks.

(Edited my above comment to reflect the correct header size )

I am curious around the 'criterion' used..... whereby the 2 1/8" Headers were described as BEST ?     Do you recall what primary tube length 2 1/8" was tested ? ?

[Q5XX29]

2 1/4 tubes are pretty massive. I dont recall your build but ive seen best results with step headers in most race applications. Bsb67 (russ) running manifolds has a cam grind specific for the manifolds and even then, would stilm pickup alot with a longtube swap, but his build was specifically for him.

Sorry, I meant 2 1/8" headers, which I still thought sounded pretty big, but he said he dyno'd my combo with both and that's what it liked best. What you said about Russ' application makes sense, thanks.

(Edited my above comment to reflect the correct header size )

I am curious around the 'criterion' used..... whereby the 2 1/8" Headers were described as BEST ?     Do you recall what primary tube length 2 1/8" was tested ? ?

Sorry, I am not sure. The engine was built a couple of years ago and still going very strong, after probably 25 dragstrip runs, and maybe 2000 street miles. I just recall telling the engine builder back then that I planned on re-using my 1 7/8" headers and he said that he tested this combo and it liked the 2 1/8" headers better than that 1 7/8" headers, to the tune of about 50 hp. Not saying that's true, but that is what he told me. He also told me that he tested my combo with and without a "super sucker" spacer under the carb, and I think he said it made 25 hp more with that, but alas, I cannot fit it under the stock '68 Charger hood with the M1 intake. I have some videos of this car posted a while back on my Instagram account if anybody is interested: dakota_gt is my username there.

[c00nhunterjoe]

In looking back and seeing that it is a 500" with a stock port window head, i cannot see how a 2 1/8 tube would pickup any, let alone 50hp over an 1 7/8 tube. On the 13:1 572 running heavily ported 572-13 heads, we use tubes that big. On my maxwedge port heads, the 2" step header has been the best so far. I would be very curious to see those dyno sheets.

[Q5XX29]

I was/am skeptical too, Joe. Just reporting what the engine builder told us. I never saw any dyno sheets. My engine was run in on an engine stand but not dyno'd. He estimated my power output should be around 560-570 crank hp, based on using this combo in several other builds that he had done. You can look him up, even give him a call to discuss, if you are so inclined. His name is Dustin Strong, Strong Performance in O'Neill, Nebraska. The engine work was all handled through a buddy of mine, pretty well known "Mopar Guru" around these parts, Brad Harms. Great guy. He recommended Dustin Strong to me, to build my engine. Apparently not long after he built my engine, Dustin's reputation went to $hit and he screwed a bunch of customers over. I was sorry to hear that, and figured if anything ever went wrong with my engine, I would be SOL, based on that knowledge. BUT- I've had nothing but excellence from this stroker he built for me. Hope that continues!