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Author Topic: MP 528 cam went flat, good time to make a few changes.....  (Read 3048 times)
Kern Dog
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« on: June 06, 2022, 06:21:04 PM »

Recently I did a Borgeson steering box installation in the '70. While out getting used to the improved feel and better response, the 440/493 started runing rough and knocking. After some detective work, it was evident that the cam had lost a lobe or a few of them. I had some clatter for a while but was used to that. The Mopar Performance solid cams have a suggested lash of .028 intake, .032 exhaust....the widest that I have ever heard of. It was clattering more than usual so I pulled the valve covers and went about lashing the rocker arms. A few were much looser than usual and That worried me a bit. It ran a little better afterward and was a little quieter but within a few miles, it ran worse and worse. Back at home, I pulled the intake and valley pan to see some chipped edges on a couple lifters and a rounded lobe.  I have had mixed luck with just swapping in another cam. Once I got away clean, another time, the second cam went bad within 500 miles. The right thing to do is to pull the engine to clean everything out. The debris gets in the oil and wherever the oil goes, the metal shavings go and grind away on internal parts.
I remember a few years ago saying that I wanted to do an engine removal & installation from underneath so I took some wheel dollies and scrap metal and made a cart to do it. I took a bare 440 block and a 727 and made a jig to fit them.


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Kern Dog
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2022, 06:25:35 PM »

The whole thing only cost me a few bucks for bolts...not a bad deal!
I had to remove the steering column and shifter along with the wiring, hoses and A/C compressor. I left the compressor attached and secured to the core support.
The torsion bars got removed and pushed back. I dropped the engine while attached to the K member with the front suspension and steering mostly intact. The calipers were unbolted and hung up with wire.


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Kern Dog
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2022, 06:28:29 PM »

This was my first time doing this and since nobody was around, I did it by myself. I was a bit nervous but it all went well.
I pulled the front accessories, the balancer, timing cover, headers and heads. The cam was worse than I thought. TEN lobes were on the way out though only seven lifters looked bad.


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Kern Dog
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2022, 06:40:40 PM »

I have the engine torn down to a bare block. The rod and main bearings were mostly fine, just # 5 main had some scoring on the bearing. The crank will polish out just fine. I've decided to go another .010 over to .040 and install pistons with a 24cc Dish. At zero deck, this will put me at 9.8 to 1 with real quench. I was at 10.1 before using thick .075 Cometic head gaskets. I was .012 below deck with these Ross pistons plus the .075 put me  at .87 quench distance....effectively worthless from what I have read.
I also said before that if I wiped out another cam, screw it, I'm going to a roller. I knew that it would cost more but I wasn't ready for just HOW much more expensive it is.....However,  wiping out flat tappet cams sucks!
One guy that I spoke with asked about what oil I was using. For many years, I used Valvoline VR1. About a year ago, I bought some of this:





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Kern Dog
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2022, 06:48:39 PM »

Dwayne Porter let me know that these types of high detergent oil tend to scrub the zinc OFF of the parts rather than clinging to them. I had also been adding a supplement to the oil thinking that it was a good thing. He then told me that most of the time, the additives can screw with the chemistry of the oil and make things worse. The argument against flat tappet cams has been the risk of lifter and lobe failure. Before the switch to this oil, the engine ran great. In fact, I put about 2000-2200 miles on another solid cam before switching to this '528. That cam, a wilder Lunati, also was used with the same type of Howards EDM lifters and I ran on Valvoline VR1 with that combination. It was now looking like the expense of a roller cam didn't make sense for me. I decided to reuse the Lunati since I kept the lifters stored in order. The reason that I pulled it out was that I got tired of the rougher idle in gear at stoplights. The 528 was supposed to be a better low rpm performer.
Both issues were true but now I have a manual transmission. There will be no idling in gear anymore.

I now have the engine torn down, cleaned and ready to go to the machine shop.
The oil pump will be replaced...look at the scoring from the debris that went through it:




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chargerbr549
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2022, 07:08:16 AM »

I would probably stay with a mineral based oil with high zinc instead of a synthetic based oil for a flat tappet cam.
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AKcharger
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2022, 08:17:42 AM »

Sorry to hear all that!
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Kern Dog
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2022, 08:53:40 AM »

I would probably stay with a mineral based oil with high zinc instead of a synthetic based oil for a flat tappet cam.
Yeah, that is the plan. Everything seemed to be fine with the last 2 cams that I used VR1.
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chargerbr549
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2022, 11:19:31 AM »

Years ago in a former machine shop I worked in we had some race motors that we built for the the local dirt track and they were always dependable motors then all of a sudden we started having roller lifter and roller rocker arm failures and the only thing that changed was the racers switching to a synthetic oil and to make a long story short one of the cam or rocker arm manufacturers we talked to said that synthetic oils don't have the film strength of a conventional oil and recommended to switch back to a conventional oil and the problem went away. Flat tappet cams depending on spring pressures and can have a very high psi on the contact area on the lobe (similiar to a needle bearing in a roller lifter under  high spring pressure) so a high zinc conventional oil is the best insurance. IMHO
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cdr
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2022, 11:32:43 AM »

I have the engine torn down to a bare block. The rod and main bearings were mostly fine, just # 5 main had some scoring on the bearing. The crank will polish out just fine. I've decided to go another .010 over to .040 and install pistons with a 24cc Dish. At zero deck, this will put me at 9.8 to 1 with real quench. I was at 10.1 before using thick .075 Cometic head gaskets. I was .012 below deck with these Ross pistons plus the .075 put me  at .87 quench distance....effectively worthless from what I have read.
I also said before that if I wiped out another cam, screw it, I'm going to a roller. I knew that it would cost more but wiping out flat tappet cams sucks!
One guy that I spoke with asked about what oil I was using. For many years, I used Valvoline VR1. About a year ago, I bought some of this:





Good call on the dish pistons, Thats what I have 9.7to1 , I also run the Lucas racing oil, Lucas products have been VERY good in my junk, I also run Lucas in my 2020 TA 392 , I ran VR1 for MANY years & have had quite a few cams go flat. was it the oil Huh? who knows Smiley
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LINK TO MY STORY http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/16/ride-shares-charlie-keel-battles-cancer-ms-to-build-brilliant-1968-dodge-charger/  
                                                                                           
68 Charger 512 cid,9.7to1,Hilborn EFI,Home ported 440 source heads,small hyd roller cam,COLD A/C ,,a518 trans,Dana 60 ,4.10 gear,10.93 et,4100lbs on street tires full exhaust daily driver
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Kern Dog
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2022, 08:10:01 PM »


Good call on the dish pistons, Thats what I have 9.7to1 , I also run the Lucas racing oil, Lucas products have been VERY good in my junk, I also run Lucas in my 2020 TA 392 , I ran VR1 for MANY years & have had quite a few cams go flat. was it the oil Huh? who knows Smiley

Thank you, Charlie.
I had good luck with the VR1, or at least I didn't see any failures from using it.
What I find strange is that once this cam started to fail, it didn't take long to get there. In a span of less than 50 miles, it went from running normal to running choppy and down on power. 10 lobes measured below spec but only 7 lifters looked bad. Weird....
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jlatessa
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2022, 08:30:54 PM »

VR1 here too, never a problem...

Joe
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Kern Dog
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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2022, 02:39:52 AM »

More parts cleaning and some paintwork has begun. The aluminum water pump was natural finish so of course, it dulls out and gets stained. I used metal etch primer then sprayed it with high temp aluminum color.
Every engine that I have built or cleaned up and painted has been done with spray cans. I got pissed off at the crappy quality of the Mopar Performance aerosol cans. I know that others had the same troubles.
I've grown tired of fading and peeling engine paint so this time I'm spraying the paint from a gun....Single stage urethane enamel with a catalyst in the following color...Go Man Go!


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Kern Dog
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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2022, 02:41:41 AM »

The timing cover was sprayed with Duplicolor Chrysler orange, the paint in the can and on the lid is the Go Man Go....


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Kern Dog
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2022, 08:08:06 PM »

The engine bay and front frame rails had several areas with chipped paint so I masked off the entire car to avoid overspray.



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Kern Dog
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2022, 08:10:40 PM »

I had some Flame Red single stage urethane enamel so I laid it on using a small "PreVal" sprayer. This allowed me to get in the tight areas and keep the oversparay down due to it's inherent low pressure pattern.


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Kern Dog
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2022, 08:11:58 PM »

Yeah....I do intend to pull those UCA alignment cams to clean off the paint!



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Kern Dog
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2022, 12:37:34 PM »

The engine has been at the machine shop for 2 1/2 weeks. I'm not in a huge hurry though since other tasks await me at home.
I disassembled the steering and K frame mounted components. Back in 2003, I rebuilt the front end and with everything apart, I painted all the parts to avoid surface rust. The steering linkage and spindles were painted a dark gray metallic. Of course over this time, there have been thousands of street miles that resulted in chips and scratches. For this time, I am trying something different. I stripped the paint using a wire wheel. The finish came out uneven so to even it out, I'll use 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper and a red Scotch Brite pad. I'm going to leave the linkage unpainted BUT coat them with Rust Preventative Magic (RPM) paste from ECS restoration products. This should allow them to look factory fresh without rusting. Even if some areas start to flash rust later, I can scrub and reapply more of this stuff.


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472 R/T SE
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2022, 06:04:49 PM »

Lots of flat cams years back when it was mentioned very little that dinosaur oil wouldn't have zinc anymore.

Thanks for the tip about adding additive to already zinced oil.  I use Mobile One 15W-50 Synthetic in both rigs and added a bottle years back to Charger after an o change.  I change the oil so much, 500 miles, I hope its not a concern?

Took us less than an hour to drop my K frame.  Course my buddy had done it several times so he had a system, etc.

Great thread!


Im so far behind the times I play hell posting pix, smh.
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c00nhunterjoe
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2022, 10:36:45 AM »

I dont like synthetic with flat tappets regardless of zddp content. For my rollers, i run lucas racing oil and have never had issues with roller or rockers. I run jesel rockers and comp lifters. No issues with street driving and higher then average spring pressures although i do idle at 1300.
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Kern Dog
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2022, 11:59:35 AM »

Thanks Joe.
I've heard good and bad about what oil people use. The issue that was an eye opener for me was that high detergent oil strips the zinc from the parts rather than allowing it to cling to them. What a waste.....
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Kern Dog
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2022, 09:09:58 PM »

The K member was stripped of all bolt on parts and weighed.....


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Kern Dog
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2022, 09:11:50 PM »

Back when I installed this K member, I painted it with Rustoleum gloss black. It held up okay but I didn't like the high sheen.



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Kern Dog
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2022, 09:16:06 PM »

I wanted to go ever some of the welds again. This K member was reinforced at the steering box mount several years ago when I had it out. Back then I also welded washers around the LCA pin hole to prevent a failure in that high stress area, then welded washers on the front side where the strut rod bushings fit in.
First though, I stripped the paint with a 4.5" angle grinder with a wire wheel.



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b5blue
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2022, 09:26:26 AM »

Penetrol by Flood works great at low luster protection of bare and painted parts.  2thumbs
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