Wing Car Prices

[taxspeaker]

Somewhere back in the last couple of years someone posted a question asking who had the largest collection of wing cars. There were lots of rumors and a few good remarks. I know Dwayne Lee up in Alberta had, at one time, the largest collection I was aware of that wasn't a rumor. Dwayne and I have talked several times, but his collection has been dispersed to the winds-I have his Petty Blue Bird.

Then along comes this upcoming auction from Mr. Edwards out of Minnesota. I do not know Mr. Edwards, but by selling 13 if I counted right I think it shows that some of the rumors are true. After a long phone conversation this morning with a 3rd party "in the know" this may have been the largest documented collection out there.

Here is where things get sticky though. It appears that a 2nd collection (not mine!!) may also be going to that same Mecum auction in January in Kissimmee and that there may be as many as 20 wing cars, including 3 Hemi Daytona's at that sale. With 13 known coming, and 7 probables, this will without a doubt flood the market of a supposedly super rare car.

What does that mean to the rest of us? To collectors like me, it means opportunity sometime after Febrruary 2023 to finally get the other wing(s) I have been patiently looking for, perhaps at a great price. To flippers, they will get stuck (Too Bad...). To long time owners thinking maybe of selling in the next year, I would get it done ASAP. To the guy or lady that loves their car prices won't matter much. To the kids selling Dad's car they will not sell because they have watched too many TV auctions and think Dad's car is worth the gold concourse restored price that numbers match wings bring (Think opportunity for the rest of us). But, in summary

Flooding the market, combined with exploding interest rates and the already started recession, will make wing car prices drop by as much as 50% within six months.
If you are potential buyer I would suggest waiting 6 months from right now, and come early spring, say 4/26 try to get that wing car you always wanted-it will be a steal.

[WINGIN IT]

IMO flooding the auction market may reduce auction prices for these vehicles in the short term, but don't really think that much.
There's simply more demand than supply, and these cars will still be out of reach for the average enthusiast. Those days are gone.

[426HemiChick]

Hi Bob,                15 October 2022

Great analysis Bob,

FJB may have done some of us a favor; get the car(s) one wants and he gets ousted in 2024. Can't happen quick enough. We want a KW W990. Hope the prices come down. Don't think they will, huge backlog of orders. Waits are in the 18 - 24 month range.

Right now the rain is coming down in torrents. The roof on the house behind us looks like a river is pouring off it. We need the water; it has been dry here for a couple years.

Rain stopped, for awhile, sun is shining. Went over to the Pup's house; took them out, then fixed their lunch. They are happy campers.

Take Care Bob

Best Always

The "Fugitive"

[426HemiChick]

.
.
.
What does that mean to the rest of us? To collectors like me, it means opportunity sometime after Febrruary 2023 to finally get the other wing(s) I have been patiently looking for, perhaps at a great price. To flippers, they will get stuck (Too Bad...). To long time owners thinking maybe of selling in the next year, I would get it done ASAP. To the guy or lady that loves their car prices won't matter much. To the kids selling Dad's car they will not sell because they have watched too many TV auctions and think Dad's car is worth the gold concourse restored price that numbers match wings bring (Think opportunity for the rest of us). But, in summary

Flooding the market, combined with exploding interest rates and the already started recession, will make wing car prices drop by as much as 50% within six months.
If you are potential buyer I would suggest waiting 6 months from right now, and come early spring, say 4/26 try to get that wing car you always wanted-it will be a steal.

Hi Bob,                 15 October 2022

"If you are potential buyer I would suggest waiting 6 months from right now, and come early spring, say 4/26 try to get that wing car you always wanted-it will be a steal."

Did you mean April 2026 or April 2023? Think you meant 2023. 2026 is almost 4 years away.

Don't want to wait that long. Think you had 426 Hemi on your mind.

Best Always

The 426 Fugitive

[rainbow4jd]

Sadly what you'll see is these cars snapped up as investment pieces.  Think about it.   Would you rather invest in crypto, NFTs, classic art, a fixed inverse of classic automobiles that continue to get media exposure, have legendary cultural status, and and entire social network of would-be collectors who Will make a killing in the stock market once the recession is over and have tons of disposable income.

It's a buy now and plan to flip in 4 years

[oldchevelle541]

Excellent post but some others may have a different view on what's to come. To suggest that the value of wings cars may drop as much as 50% in six months may be an over exaggeration. Looking at the upcoming January Auction we see pristine vehicles that will still command big money. Many of these are restored cars with a lot of pedigree with unique factory options and color combinations.

As enthusiasts we have seen overall muscle car prices climb significantly over the last few years. Those with discretionary money purchased their muscle cars at strong prices so they could enjoy the use of their money and have fun with the hobby. Many believe prices in general will begin to soften and when the prices begin to drop many will lose money if they feel the need to sell because they may have over paid if they purchased in the last few years. Many of the wing cars coming up for auction are restored and are special because they are not your standard wing cars. Many are one of a kind with various factory options and color combinations that make them more unique. These are Grade A cars and have been part of private collections and because some of those collections have grown owners now find that maintaining these collections at the quality level they deserve has become an increasing burden. And yes sometimes we realize we have too many. We have to remember these are collectors downsizing their herd and if people want a special wing car in January they will have to step up and pay. Not so sure I would call this flooding the market. Those folks that may have 1 wing car and it is driver quality will still hold their values but likely those values may come back in line with what the market was a few years ago. I do not see a $140K driver selling for $70K anytime soon regardless of what you paid for those cars years ago. When the average collector decides to sell their only wing car likely these will be the cars the newer enthusiasts will be after because they will be more affordable.

Anyone reading this forum good luck with all of your cars. We have to remember we have these mostly because we love the history and hobby, we love to drive them and they are a piece of art. Most will say they did not buy them for an investment.

Thanks for listening.

[NHCharger]

Interesting thoughts Bob.
I've been in the construction business my entire life and the last two years have been shaking my head at the upward spiral of housing prices.
Also at the asking prices of old cars, even 4 doors.
With mortgage rates over 6% now house sales around here are dropping faster than Bill Clintons shorts on Epstein Island. However that's only on first time buyers and move up buyers. The high priced houses are still selling because the buyers are cash buyers.
I'm assuming that these buyers of the hemi wing cars have deep pockets and will not be affected by a mild recession.
However I wouldn't be surprised to see the overall pricing of our cars down 20-30% by Spring.
I'm actually more concerned about the long term outlook for our hobby.
With our government pushing hard to go green including having lending institutions use a ESG score as part of their decision to lend you money at what point do they start leveling environmental impact fees
on antique vehicles. 

[oldchevelle541]

Good Question as this topic has come up at cruise nights. Some may suggest our cars are not environmentally friendly in comparison to the newer vehicles or the new electric cars. Not much of a discussion there of course but the one very important thing that all antique or classic car owners must remember is that we barely drive our cars therefore the impact on the environment is negligible. Many get driven less than 250 miles per year especially where seasons are short. Collectors of multiple cars even drive theirs less. The hobby will need to push back on any consideration of Environmental impact fees for these vehicles that mostly sit in garages. 

[birdsandbees]

Well Hagerty just had me raise the agreed value on mine by 25% three weeks ago and then I see, as Bob has pointed out, 13 cars going across the block at one time and think to myself why did I bother going with their request. Why on earth would anyone put that many cars up at one time and lose the "bid urgency" of a couple guys fighting over a single car on the block.

That said.. I lowered the value of mine on Tuesday...

[RealWing]

Well Hagerty just had me raise the agreed value on mine by 25% three weeks ago and then I see, as Bob has pointed out, 13 cars going across the block at one time and think to myself why did I bother going with their request. Why on earth would anyone put that many cars up at one time and lose the "bid urgency" of a couple guys fighting over a single car on the block.

That said.. I lowered the value of mine on Tuesday...

Noooooooooo☹️☹️☹️☹️☹️

[426HemiChick]

Well Hagerty just had me raise the agreed value on mine by 25% three weeks ago and then I see, as Bob has pointed out, 13 cars going across the block at one time and think to myself why did I bother going with their request. Why on earth would anyone put that many cars up at one time and lose the "bid urgency" of a couple guys fighting over a single car on the block.

That said.. I lowered the value of mine on Tuesday...

Hi birdsandbees,                 16 October 2022

Don't quite understand your post: "Well Hagerty just had me raise the agreed value on mine by 25% three weeks ago  . . . . " Are/were you planning on selling/auctioning your Super Bird??

We know nothing about Hagerty except how it is spelled. Would appreciate being "learned."

Thanks in Advance

Best Always

426 Hemi Fugitive Criminal

[birdsandbees]

Well Hagerty just had me raise the agreed value on mine by 25% three weeks ago and then I see, as Bob has pointed out, 13 cars going across the block at one time and think to myself why did I bother going with their request. Why on earth would anyone put that many cars up at one time and lose the "bid urgency" of a couple guys fighting over a single car on the block.

That said.. I lowered the value of mine on Tuesday...

Hi birdsandbees,                 16 October 2022

Don't quite understand your post: "Well Hagerty just had me raise the agreed value on mine by 25% three weeks ago  . . . . " Are/were you planning on selling/auctioning your Super Bird??

We know nothing about Hagerty except how it is spelled. Would appreciate being "learned."

Thanks in Advance

Best Always

426 Hemi Fugitive Criminal

Cars are insured for an "Agreed Value" in the event of a total loss. They advised me that mine was at an agreed value 25% lower than they currently thought it should be covered for. Part of that would be the market rise and the other part would be our shitty Cdn dollar value.

[Birdflu]

That said.. I lowered the value of mine on Tuesday...

Oh $#%! 

[426HemiChick]

Cars are insured for an "Agreed Value" in the event of a total loss. They advised me that mine was at an agreed value 25% lower than they currently thought it should be covered for. Part of that would be the market rise and the other part would be our shitty Cdn dollar value.

Hi birdsandbees,            16 October 2022

Thank you for the info. I thought Hagerty was another Auction House.

Best Always

426 Hemi Chicks

[426HemiChick]

Good Question as this topic has come up at cruise nights. Some may suggest our cars are not environmentally friendly in comparison to the newer vehicles or the new electric cars. Not much of a discussion there of course but the one very important thing that all antique or classic car owners must remember is that we barely drive our cars therefore the impact on the environment is negligible. Many get driven less than 250 miles per year especially where seasons are short. Collectors of multiple cars even drive theirs less. The hobby will need to push back on any consideration of Environmental impact fees for these vehicles that mostly sit in garages.  

Hi oldchevelle541,                  16 October 2022

"The hobby will need to push back on any consideration of Environmental impact fees for these vehicles that mostly sit in garages."

Do you think we as a group could reason with the Green Nut cases in congress, of which several have spent close to $.5Mil each on Private Security for themselves, while simultaneously pushing to defund the Police?

Congress is full of lunatics as is government in general. I'm dealing with the city I used to have property in for 42 years. They claim I violated one of their building codes, was not notified of it, was supposedly summoned to court, which they have no record of me receiving the summons (admitted by Them) and over one year later they call me to let me know I owe them $2000.00 for being found guilty for failure to appear and there is a warrant out for my arrest. The goofy crap at the federal level has seeped into the local governments. It's all about power, control and money. Your money is theirs for the taking.

I called our attorney and he put us in touch with a criminal defense attorney. Never gave it a thought I'd one day need to talk to one of them as a civilian; yes as a Cop I did. The Attorney we spoke with said he would find someone that knows the folks in Southlake's Kangaroo Court, which is exactly what he called it.

So, we are supposed to accept the fact that we can be accused, tried and punished (fined) in absentia and become wanted criminals. I'm beginning to wonder why I devoted 8 years of my life defending this country and risked my ass as a cop.

The other problem we are going to have is: Where are we going to get the Gasoline to run our beloved cars?? They want to shut down the Oil Industry. Guess we can drill holes in our backyards and construct small refining stills in our garages.

In 23 more days we have a federal election which has grave consequences for our country. Hopefully, intelligence will reign and we will get enough new folks in both houses of congress to bring sanity to "Warshington." Sure "ain't" going to hold my breath.

We all should go to the auction and buy all the cars we want, this may be our last opportunity to own these Jewels.

Best Always

426 Hemi Chick Wanted Dead or Alive

[Birdflu]

As far as the flood of wing cars entering the market, I also feel that it won't have much of an impact on current pricing. The fact that the majority of Edwards cars are not 440 4bbl average drivers makes me believe they will be scooped up by investors/private collectors as well. The supply simply cannot keep up with demand right now. Some claim money is scarce but I keep seeing money being spent like we're all riding this beautiful round planet straight into a brick wall! Since the Covid outbreak, I keep seeing people pull the levers that they were reluctant to pull years ago! I guess we'll see....won't we?  

[6bblgt]

I see no mention of "No Reserve" & wonder what the OVER/UNDER bet is on the 16 GARY EDWARDS cars hammering "SOLD" VS "the-bid-goes-on"

   * ( I see 7 Daytonas listed * 1 HEMI, 5 Superbirds listed * 3 HEMI, a HEMI 'cuda, a HEMI Charger R/T, 440 6bbl Road Runner & a 4-door Barracuda ) *

[cudavic]

Somewhere back in the last couple of years someone posted a question asking who had the largest collection of wing cars. There were lots of rumors and a few good remarks. I know Dwayne Lee up in Alberta had, at one time, the largest collection I was aware of that wasn't a rumor. Dwayne and I have talked several times, but his collection has been dispersed to the winds-I have his Petty Blue Bird.

Then along comes this upcoming auction from Mr. Edwards out of Minnesota. I do not know Mr. Edwards, but by selling 13 if I counted right I think it shows that some of the rumors are true. After a long phone conversation this morning with a 3rd party "in the know" this may have been the largest documented collection out there.

Here is where things get sticky though. It appears that a 2nd collection (not mine!!) may also be going to that same Mecum auction in January in Kissimmee and that there may be as many as 20 wing cars, including 3 Hemi Daytona's at that sale. With 13 known coming, and 7 probables, this will without a doubt flood the market of a supposedly super rare car.

What does that mean to the rest of us? To collectors like me, it means opportunity sometime after Febrruary 2023 to finally get the other wing(s) I have been patiently looking for, perhaps at a great price. To flippers, they will get stuck (Too Bad...). To long time owners thinking maybe of selling in the next year, I would get it done ASAP. To the guy or lady that loves their car prices won't matter much. To the kids selling Dad's car they will not sell because they have watched too many TV auctions and think Dad's car is worth the gold concourse restored price that numbers match wings bring (Think opportunity for the rest of us). But, in summary

Flooding the market, combined with exploding interest rates and the already started recession, will make wing car prices drop by as much as 50% within six months.
If you are potential buyer I would suggest waiting 6 months from right now, and come early spring, say 4/26 try to get that wing car you always wanted-it will be a steal.

It would be nice if this forum had a like button, because I would definitely like your post.
I agree and I believe you are 100% correct.

I think many of the investor grade collectors are dumping their cars while the market is still relatively strong, just to get cash to re-invest in the stock market once it finally reaches a bottom.
Patience and cash required for those that desire a wing car.

[6bblgt]

 

[426HemiChick]

.
.
.
Since the Covid outbreak, I keep seeing people pull the levers that they were reluctant to pull years ago! I guess we'll see....won't we?  

Hi Birdflu,               16 October 2022

"...I keep seeing people pull the levers that they were reluctant to pull years ago!"

It's called free "Guberment" money, which is a good portion of the inflation we are seeing. What goes up, must ultimately come down. The secret is knowing when to pull the pin. I remember a stock broker's advice from years ago: "Buy low, Sell high; don't get greedy chasing the peak."

Best Always

426 Hemi Ctiminal

[taxspeaker]

I love the discussions and thinking of everyone-that's what a forum is about. I do still think he is making a horrible mistake selling them all at once because you need that rare combination of buyers that love these cars (lots and lots of them) combined with buyers that can afford them (very very few), and if the first couple bring the big bucks, will the big money buyers walk away? It would take very deep pockets combined with incredible desire for wing cars for just a couple of guys to buy these cars.

The bigger question-Wayne what happened to that door? Did you leave it open backing out and caught it on the Pepsi machine? At least it is a door and not a fender.

I wonder why the Edwards listings don't say anything about numbers matching or anything-I think the copper Hemi Daytona is, but don't know anything for sure about any of them.

[birdsandbees]

The bigger question-Wayne what happened to that door? Did you leave it open backing out and caught it on the Pepsi machine? At least it is a door and not a fender.

Jumped out quick to make sure it was in far enough to close the door and it dropped into reverse. I thought it just hadn't engaged the park pawl and was just rolling so tried to stop it and ended up pinned to the pop machine with the car in reverse. Thankfully able to get my other arm around to the door jam and push just enough to get my arm out and turn off the car... hello Hagerty...

[Birdflu]

Holy crap Wayne!

Looks like you were lucky!

[426HemiChick]

I love the discussions and thinking of everyone-that's what a forum is about. I do still think he is making a horrible mistake selling them all at once because you need that rare combination of buyers that love these cars (lots and lots of them) combined with buyers that can afford them (very very few), and if the first couple bring the big bucks, will the big money buyers walk away? It would take very deep pockets combined with incredible desire for wing cars for just a couple of guys to buy these cars.

The bigger question-Wayne what happened to that door? Did you leave it open backing out and caught it on the Pepsi machine? At least it is a door and not a fender.

I wonder why the Edwards listings don't say anything about numbers matching or anything-I think the copper Hemi Daytona is, but don't know anything for sure about any of them.

Hi Wayne, Bob,                16 October 2022

Hope you are OK Wayne, that could have been super serious. The door can be fixed, hopefully your arm is only scratched up.

Hi Bob, I asked the same question on another thread about matching numbers only being mentioned for the Copper Hemi Daytona. Nothing said for the rest of them. If we're not mistaken that Hemi Super Bird that went for big bucks earlier this year didn't have matching numbers.

This auction is going to be interesting. The coming mid term election may affect the bidding. Inflation, at least here in Phoenix Arizona is higher than a lot of the US. Don't know why.

Our fuel prices are close to the high mark set earlier. Since most of our fuel comes from California refineries, that explains part of it. We get some fuel from Texas but the pipeline from there does not have the capacity of the one from CA.

Wayne, hope your arm heals up quickly and the Bird can be easily fixed.

Best Always

426 Hemi Bandita

[birdsandbees]

Thanks guys. Yes I got lucky, if it had of pinned my chest it would have been a long afternoon.. home alone!

As for the Gary Edward's collection, I watched this a few weeks ago and it seemed pretty suspect that it was hype for an upcoming auction. Weird part is the brand new building and the fact he says he just started collecting a couple of years ago..

35 minutes long.. most cars explained and spec'd out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4a7vRnmgYs

[Impkidd]

Glad that you are ok, and the accident wasn't worse for you. The car can be fixed. Easy to say, but accidents do happen. We all learn from our mistakes and from others. I've had my share. Rob.

[taxspeaker]

Excellent video with lots of info, thanks Wayne  it also states which ones have s/n matching engines and transmissions if you listen closely. These cars are clearly, from an investors point of view, the pinnacle of wing cars. I do not see any of these being driven anywhere, so kissimmee in January will be a great show to maybe see them out for the last time. There might be an exception or two to that last statement.

Bob

[Impkidd]

Also, the Florida hurricane wing cars that were shown all over the news, had to spark some investors interest in owning one as an investment and conversation piece. I've had people that weren't into wing cars tell me of the videos, since I have a car.

[WINGIN IT]

... There might be an exception or two to that last statement.

Bob

Should we start a pool on which ones those might be   


Noticed this prime example just showed up on BaT .
Guessing he wants to beat the auction.
Anyone's here?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-plymouth-superbird-29/

[Birdflu]

... There might be an exception or two to that last statement.

Bob

Should we start a pool on which ones those might be   


Noticed this prime example just showed up on BaT .
Guessing he wants to beat the auction.
Anyone's here?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-plymouth-superbird-29/

Wow! Really nice looking restoration on that one! 

[Birdflu]

Excellent video with lots of info, thanks Wayne  it also states which ones have s/n matching engines and transmissions if you listen closely. These cars are clearly, from an investors point of view, the pinnacle of wing cars. I do not see any of these being driven anywhere, so kissimmee in January will be a great show to maybe see them out for the last time. There might be an exception or two to that last statement.

Bob

Excellent video! I'm sure glad to hear the gentleman lives in Georgia and not Minnesota as first suggested. Being a Mopar nut and having lived in Minnesota my whole life, I'd be ashamed to not have heard about this collection!

[70 sublime]

... There might be an exception or two to that last statement.

Bob

Should we start a pool on which ones those might be   


Noticed this prime example just showed up on BaT .
Guessing he wants to beat the auction.
Anyone's here?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-plymouth-superbird-29/

Or will new buyer of this BaT car take it to the same auction hoping for a big pay off but have a reserve on it just in case ?
Might be a better bet

[69_500]

Bob I partially agree with what you said at the beginning of this thread. I have however based my thought on it over the historical patterns on these cars. Prices have jumped on the wing cars several times in the time I have been tracking them. Big jump in 79-81 time frame. They started trading hands near what original sticker price was. Then cars kind of leveled off until about 87-88. Huge jump again in prices on these cars. Hemi Daytona's in 80-81 were $7-10k, by 89 it was $80-90k. But they leveled off and dropped bit in early 90's. By 1995-6 a Hemi Daytona was around $125k. By 2003 the wing cars prices went nuts and a Hemi Daytona sold for $600k. Then prices dropped back down for the next 3-4 years, until steadily getting back to the new highs. Fast forward to 2014 Hemi Daytona sells for $900k. Same car sells again a few years later for $650k. However now that we are in 2022 same car is probably going to be over $1.3M. Now the prices may drop in 2023-4 and come down but by 2030 they should be even higher than they are now.

Prices are like stocks. They go up, then have a correction, and steadily gain over the next few years to get back to new all time highs. When they go nuts, they always cool off for a few years.

You know I have been trying to get into a Daytona for a very long time now. Still trying. One day there will be one sitting in my garage permanently.

[426HemiChick]

Bob I partially agree with what you said at the beginning of this thread. I have however based my thought on it over the historical patterns on these cars. Prices have jumped on the wing cars several times in the time I have been tracking them. Big jump in 79-81 time frame. They started trading hands near what original sticker price was. Then cars kind of leveled off until about 87-88. Huge jump again in prices on these cars. Hemi Daytona's in 80-81 were $7-10k, by 89 it was $80-90k. But they leveled off and dropped bit in early 90's. By 1995-6 a Hemi Daytona was around $125k. By 2003 the wing cars prices went nuts and a Hemi Daytona sold for $600k. Then prices dropped back down for the next 3-4 years, until steadily getting back to the new highs. Fast forward to 2014 Hemi Daytona sells for $900k. Same car sells again a few years later for $650k. However now that we are in 2022 same car is probably going to be over $1.3M. Now the prices may drop in 2023-4 and come down but by 2030 they should be even higher than they are now.

Prices are like stocks. They go up, then have a correction, and steadily gain over the next few years to get back to new all time highs. When they go nuts, they always cool off for a few years.

You know I have been trying to get into a Daytona for a very long time now. Still trying. One day there will be one sitting in my garage permanently.

Hi 69_500,                17 October 2022

We really hope you succeed in obtaining your Daytona. Most folks don't know just how great it feels to have one; remember, they Own Us. We were lucky, we adopted our 69 Hemi Daytona 50 years ago this past June or early July. Bob Jennings adopted her two years ago 27 Oct 2020. At that point we had had her 48 years. We do miss her but we are happy she has a great home.

Just don't wait till you're in your 80's before allowing one to adopt you. My clock's batteries are running down, they get recharged periodically, but there is a finite limit to the number of recharges a battery will accept. My next recharge will be new Knees. Hoping to have both replaced at the same time. Rehab may be a bit rougher at first but the end result should be the same as for a single knee. Would rather do two and get it all done did at once. We'll see what the doc says.

God Bless

Best Always

426 Hemi Chicks

[cudavic]

Yet another video.

Daytonas & Superbirds - Gary Edwards Wing Car & Mopar Collection // Mecum Kissimmee, Jan. 4-15, 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g__M8lZ-CRE