Nascar 305 cui motors used in 69 daytona for 2 races

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

what were these engines??? destroked 340's or 318's???-MATT



link---------------->http://aerowarriors.com/305_daytona.html

[azraelck]

Neither. Hemi. 305cid Hemi, to my knowledge; able to turn over 10,000 rpm. Which, back then, was scary as heck, since most american motors of the time came nowhere near that number.  As I recall, they did fairly well for themselves, but the loss in displacement was still alot to bear, not to mention the usual France crap against Chrysler which had been going on since long before. It was an echo of what NASCAR is today, a place where enough money can buy you a few wins if you want it. Currently, Toyota is head briber.

[Mike DC]

   
I don't think they were Hemis.  I've read they were basically destroked 340s built like they were using in the Trans Am series at the time.

 

[terrible one]

Either way, that's a cool link and story.

[Plumcrazy]

what were these engines??? destroekd 340's or 318's???-MATT

You can see in at least one photo, it's a small block.
Interesting. 

[tan top]

what were these engines??? destroekd 340's or 318's???-MATT

You can see in at least one photo, it's a small block.
Interesting.

       
                           but never read anywere as to it being a 340 or a 318.   but i would of thought they would of used the production 340 T/A block ,and de-stroked that . as it had extra thick main bearing webs cast as factory. so they could  drill and tap to have the advantage of 4 bolt main bearings when winding the small block to 10,000 RPM .

[Ghoste]

I had always thought it was a destroked Hemi as well.  That was an interesting story.

[69_500]

I believe it was a 340 that was destroked. I also think that it was Keith Black that built the engine to use in the race. I only remember it being used in 1 race, and it was at Daytona in a Daytona but in 1971. As I recall the car actually led the race, and had a shot at winning.

[hemigeno]

I believe it was a 340 that was destroked. I also think that it was Keith Black that built the engine to use in the race. I only remember it being used in 1 race, and it was at Daytona in a Daytona but in 1971. As I recall the car actually led the race, and had a shot at winning.

It was a KB-built engine for sure, but whether it was a destroked 340 or not, I don't know at the moment. 

The reference to two races is because the car had to race in one of the qualifying races in order to make the big show.  I'll look the stats up tomorrow when I get to the office, but I know that Dick Brooks finished 7th in the '71 Daytona 500.  He did lead some laps, but the smallblock gave up too much to the Hemicars coming off the turns to really utilize the Daytona's aero advantage.  Even still, he might have finished higher but Pete Hamilton collided with Dick's car and banged up the Daytona just a bit.  I have seen a picture of that collision somewhere recently - maybe I can find it.

After the race, Bill France told Ronny Householder that under no circumstances was that car to show up at the next race.  Chrysler got the hint, and the Daytona was done on NASCAR tracks forever.  The rest of the garage had nicknamed the 305 the "lunchbox" motor, since guys were saying "Hey, you left your lunchbox under the hood", etc. etc. 

It is a neat story, sortof a David vs Goliath deal.

[69_500]

I was going to say that when this was brought up on the DSAC board there was talk about how he was leading the race despite the size of the engine. I thought they had a problem on a pit stop or something and also the little accident as to why they didn't challenge for the win.

[Brock Samson]

here's the Loooong story from Allpar.com

http://www.allpar.com/racing/dodge-nascar3.html

the Brooks car info is at the end of this, the third of three articles

anyone got a decent pic of his 305 Ci Daytona?..

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

I  think the brooks car was the bobby allison car except with brook's name on the door and the 305 ci callouts on the hood-MATT(not 100% sure though)

[hemigeno]

I  think the brooks car was the bobby allison car except with brook's name on the door and the 305 ci callouts on the hood-MATT(not 100% sure though)

Well, sorta...  The #22 Daytona (and by extension, the paint scheme, etc.) was owned by Mario Rossi, even when Bobby Allison drove the car for him.  Mr. Rossi still owned the car when Dick Brooks drove it in the two '71 races at Daytona.

In the 1971 Daytona 500, Bobby A. drove a 1970 Dodge Charger (#12), that he actually owned himself and finished 18th with.  I don't have a picture of the car, but that's what the books say.

[BigBlackDodge]

I  think the brooks car was the bobby allison car except with brook's name on the door and the 305 ci callouts on the hood-MATT(not 100% sure though)

Well, sorta...  The #22 Daytona (and by extension, the paint scheme, etc.) was owned by Mario Rossi, even when Bobby Allison drove the car for him.  Mr. Rossi still owned the car when Dick Brooks drove it in the two '71 races at Daytona.

In the 1971 Daytona 500, Bobby A. drove a 1970 Dodge Charger (#12), that he actually owned himself and finished 18th with.  I don't have a picture of the car, but that's what the books say.

I do!


BBD

[69_500]

I still think that the Allison Daytona that was at BJ this year should have went for more. Anyone know if it was the car that they used the 305 motor in or not?

[hemigeno]

I still think that the Allison Daytona that was at BJ this year should have went for more. Anyone know if it was the car that they used the 305 motor in or not?

They had a hard enough time convincing people that the car was the #22 Daytona in the first place, so I can't believe they'd be able to trace its lineage well enough to say it was the 305 car.

IMHO questionable heritage played the biggest role in how the B-J auction turned out.

[Ghoste]

A car like that appeals to the true collectors.  A great many of the B-J crowd are fad buyers and will pay what it takes just to be cool.  In a few years they'll be into something else and the market will stabilize.  A car like the Allison Daytona although it's of almost immeasurable value to us, is an unknown for a lot of folks.
It still seems strange though, especially when held against that Pro Stock Chevy that set a record price.

[69_500]

See but to me the heritage of the #22 car isn't something to be argued. Yeah odds are its not 100% the car that was raced. It has had body panels replaced, and such. But I believe it to be the car. Thats my personal opinion though.

The Buddy Baker Daytona that was sold this spring though to me is a great car too. Then there is always the #71 K&K car that Tim W has, that to me is the ultimate car. The #88 car would be nice too, then again so would the Dave marcis car too. Now if someone wanted the ultimate collection they should try to get all of those old race cars into one collection.

[Brock Samson]

Just a thought..
   but wouldn't it be cool to have a spot on this board (DC.com) where the historicaly significant Chargers were located?
Like the Big Willie Daytona, landy car etc. could be seen in one place...
just'a thought.. 

[hemigeno]

See but to me the heritage of the #22 car isn't something to be argued. Yeah odds are its not 100% the car that was raced. It has had body panels replaced, and such. But I believe it to be the car. Thats my personal opinion though.

I'm going from memory here (which can be somewhat suspect at times) but I thought that the whole reason they restored the car that sold @ B-J this past winter as a #22 car is because they found some red and gold paint on the roll cage.  I just remember that there wasn't a paper trail or any kind of documentation that led back to Mario Rossi.  It's not like there's a VIN, or even a chassis number on most of those old racecars -- so it's hard to prove what they are, hard to prove what they aren't.

I still think the lack of a pedigree / document trail hurt the car's value on the auction block.

[Ghoste]

Agreed.  That's what I meant by appealing to true collectors.  The fad buyers I referred to are the ones who will fork over more money for a finished clone than they will for the real deal because it isn't the "cool" color or some foolish reason.
The real collectors want the pedigree and the knowledge that if they go big on the car, it isn't going to be reduced to becoming little more than an extremely nice condition parts car if the markets tanks (which logic says it should and clones will become-maybe).

[69_500]

I was under the impression that it does have a paper trail leading back to ownership by Mario Rossi. I could be wrong though, and it definately wouldn't be the first time.

I would also put som weight into Allison being there with the car when it is being sold. I'd have to do some looking but there was a rather long discussion on the car on the other board before and after the auction.

Of all the wing cars though the #22 paint scheme is probably my favorite. On a Daytona anyways that is.

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

amen there brother that 22# has to be the best looking daytona out there,my 2nd would have 2 be the 99# car-MATT

[Aero426]

what were these engines??? destroked 340's or 318's???-MATT



link---------------->http://aerowarriors.com/305_daytona.html

At the time, Chrysler's small block race engines came from the Trans-Am series (305 CI limit) and the P69 Granatelli Indycar project.   I believe these were based on the 340 block.

[Brock Samson]

Hey,.. Check out that number 12 '70 charger up above,.. It's got flared rear wheel arches... 

[Aero426]

Hey,.. Check out that number 12 '70 charger up above,.. It's got flared rear wheel arches... 

The slight flaring was not uncommon.  That is a Bobby Allison prepared car run in 1971 at Daytona.   Allison split off from Mario Rossi for 1971 and ran his own cars.   

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

the 305 daytona is in this months issue of hot rod in the '' this guys garage'' it is right now nothing more then a roll cage with a frame,no body what so ever-MATT