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Author Topic: 400 vs. 440 Stroker Build up  (Read 4955 times)
EffinDuff
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« on: June 11, 2007, 08:54:11 PM »

I would like to thank everyone in advance for your input on this.  I am still learning about alot of this so please bear with me.  I am looking to build a stroker to drop into my 72 charger.  It currently has a sloppy '77 400 in it which runs like an absolute pig (shocker).  I have been doing some reading and asking around and have learned alot but I wanted to ask the pro's bouncin around this site about a couple things.

1) A few people have told me that a 400 block is better to stroke compared to the 440.  I have been told because the cylinder walls on the 400 are thicker and also because of the low deck height it is a stronger motor (durability wise).  Any thoughts?

2) Also is it worth stroking my '77 400 block or is it better to get a 68-72 block?  Again I have read that as the years went on cheaper metal was used causing the blocks to be weaker.  I read that in an article about sonic wall testing.

3) I am also looking to put some Eddy heads on the stroker (looking to build a 500 stroker unless other suggestions).  It looks like there are two diff versions the 84 and 88cc versions.  Which would work the best and whats the difference in 4cc?

4) Would the 440 HP exhaust manifold be sufficient or do i really need headers?

I am sure i have 100 more questions i just cant think of them right now.  Thanks alot guys.  icon_smile_big
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Mike DC (formerly miked)
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 09:58:13 PM »

           

--  440 blocks vs 400 blocks?  Lotsa unsettled debates about that one. 

--  On a previous thread here, there was talk about the length of the piston skirt.  If it's too short (a short deck height being paired with a long stroke, like in a very big 400 stroker) then the long-term durability of the motor might suffer. 

--  The stiffness of the cylinder walls is relevant, but on a pump-gas street motor it's a lot less relevant than in race motors.  Cylinder wall stiffness comes into play more with higher compression (and power adders like nitrous or super/turbocharging).  Higher RPMs bring out stiffness & balancing issues too. 

--  Don't bore out a vintage assembly-line engine block any more than you have to, whether it be a 440 or a 400.  A couple extra cubic inches is generally not worth the downsides because the cylinder walls just weren't made to be cut down.  (Generally, the factories don't build blocks with any overboring in mind.  Not then, not now.  Whatever extra "meat" for overboring might exist on a stock block is basically the result of necessary casting tolerances at the time they cast it.)

--  The '76-78 blocks were weaker.  Not very much, but still weaker.  Once again, in a street motor it will be more of a long-term durability problem than a horsepower problem.

--  HP exhaust manifolds are small enough to cost some power out of a 383.  They'd absolutely choke a 500" stroker.  They're better than the average factory log-type manifolds that Detriot made in that era, but they're still not winning any medals compared to a traditional full-length header.  Put full-length headers onto this project.  The bigger the better.  Get some with at least 2" primaries.  A set with 3.5" collectors probably wouldn't hurt.

 
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Challenger340
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2007, 10:46:52 AM »

All boils down to applications and preferences in engine building.

I'm sure you'll get varied opinions, and, as stated, the debates could go on forever.

These are my opinions, for your application only, without debating block strengths, in different applications, for various combo's & parts used.

If you're going 500 inch for the "street", get headers, go tall deck 440 block, 6.76" rods, and purchase the correct Pistons in the kit, to yield 10.3:1 C.R. on the 88 cc EDDY's.

 Twocents
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EffinDuff
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2007, 08:34:22 PM »

Thanks guys i appreciate it.  By chance does anyone know of a good machine shop in NY?  I am 30 minutes out of the city so anything on Long Island, CT, NJ will work as well.  I cant wait to get this project rolling  drool5.
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Hot_Rodder
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2007, 06:59:09 AM »

I've thought about the same thing, and well... I'll let you here my  Twocents worth, so here it is..... I've learned a thing or two from ol' Chryco, thanks again and again man. The 400 black has thicker webmains than the 440. If all you want is about 500, then a 440 can do that by itself, trust me on this one.... But if you want to run the 400 block, look into maybe building a 451cid stroker: http://www.440source.com/strokerkits.htm 400 >> 451. (3.750" stroke/6.760" rod)  Approximate Bobweight: 2150 is supposed to be a great kit, esp. for the $$$$. You were asking about the Eddy heads with the combustion chamber size, on that site, it lists different bore sizes with each stroker kit, and combustion chamber cc sizes and what the estimated combution ratio is. Charyco will probably say to keep it under 10:1, but at the same time, due to the heat loss of the aluminum heads, you can factor a rough 1 point of compression loss do to the heat loss of the aluminum. Either way, 500 shouldn't be a problem. Once you decide which way you want to go, may I suggest checking out Engle cam's? Call them up, let them know what you got, and what you want.... I don't think anyone will get mad at me for this, at least I hope not, lol. icon_smile_cool Also, what ignition are you planning on running?
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EffinDuff
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2007, 08:00:45 AM »

The motor I currently have ('77 400) was recently bored 40 over by the previous owner so i am restricted as to what kit from 440 i can use.  The rebuild looks very clean and I am going to have a machine shop check it out just to be sure.  I am going to use the 440source 400 >> 512 kit w/ the -24 dished pistons.  This will give me roughly mid 9:1 w/ the 452 iron heads i have on it now.  Then I am looking to get a set of Alum 75cc Indys which will bring me around 10.6:1.  For now i will run the old irons until i get the $$$.  I spoke w/ Brandon from 440 source yesterday and he recommended a cam w/ a 520-530 lift and i can't remember the duration but i think it was around 230.  I think i will go with Engle for the cam and ask for their recommendation.  Now the only thing i have to decide on are a set of gears for the rear and a stall/torque converter which i am confused on.  The car does have power brakes so i know that does change the cam and converter selection but i still have no idea what i am looking for when it comes to the converter or why for that matter.  This is basically going to be a street car and I want plenty of low end power but still want to be able to cruise on the highway w/o much whine.  Right now I have a TCI 727 in it but I am contemplating a manual conversion down the line a bit (not any time very soon though).  Any ideas on gears and a converter?  If you could also explain the purpose behind a stall/torque converter for these applications i would appreciate it.  Thanks Hot_Rodder for the  Twocents 2thumbs
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Hot_Rodder
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2007, 08:44:25 AM »

Big combo. Little bit of $$$$ in the heads to, lol, but will be nice, and should run like a bad out of he**..... Ok, as for rear end gears, you will not want to go past 4.10, quick idea on axle ratio gearing, the higher numericaly (meaning the lower you go) as in 4.10 the more bottom end you will have, but you loose on the top end, plus, depending on tran's gearing and tire size, determines the "overall gearing".... getting all this so far, lol.... Now the numericaly lower (higher the gear) like say 3.23 or numericaly lower, the less bottom end you'll have, but more top end..... It's been said, even by me, a nice all around street gear would be the 3.55 Sure Grip set up. My Charger that I have now, supposably has a set of factory 3.55's sure grip in it, I sure hope it does.... Now the torque/stall converter actualy depends on your whole car. The camshaft manufacture can give you a recomendation on a selection, but what's involved with it is, your camshaft spec's, rear tire size, shift points (@ rpm), rear axle gear ratio, ect, but these are usually for a custom torque converter. The cam you listed, seems to be a fair sized cam, don't know how it's gonna do on vaccum though... However, Chryco helped me out with coming up with a build for a 505" stroker 440, that should, without a problem, punch 700+ horse power on pump gas, straight motor.... Too bad the car is sold now Cry. If you go with a numericaly higher gear ratio, say 3.73, or 3.91, or 4.10, or maybe even higher (ouch) on the street, your RPM's are gonna be higher, the point of the stall converter is to get the motor to those RPM's for the motors power band, the rear axle gears help turn the motor faster and get it off the line faster (like the 4.10), where as the 3.23's will get you closer to say 150 m.p.h. with a little bit of road.... This is all also based on tire height..... It would be nice if Chryco jumped in on this one...  Ps... That 505 motor, had a cam lift of over .600" naughty lift, but I can't remember what the duration is, I think Chryco told me to hunt up Steve Slavic, I finaly found him, but can't remember where he works now think, oh well.... He's the one that spec'd out a cam for me, over the phone.... Since you are planning on going with the 512" kit now, and that big of a cam possibly, plus the Indy's, what kind of numbers are you thinking of again? If it's still 500, you should be easily be able to hit that mark, and blow it out of the water, lol.

I hope that I didn't loose you, or confuse the living heck out of you..... I got on that ol soap box again, and went to typing, so let me know if you got any other q's.

Also, I'm not sure if you've been to this weblink or not, but check it out anyway, it's of proven big block combo's, so.... http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?board=34.0

Man I could just slap myself.... I keep forgetting to ask, the power you are wanting to turn, is this at the flywheel, or at the rear wheel, it makes a big difference. cheers
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six-tee-nine
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2007, 02:20:27 PM »

Early 440's vs later ones.....cheaper metal, less stronger all crap.... read this :

http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm
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Hot_Rodder
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2007, 06:21:20 PM »

Yeah, that too, the later the block, the less nickle content, therefor, not as strong of a block. However, somewhere around '70 they were adding more and more to the blocks to make them stronger, IE strengthening ribs and such on the exterior of the block. But also as I had said too, the 383/400 low deck blocks have thicker main webbing, there for it's stronger around the crank area. Then as far as the RB blocks (440's and such), there's a company called ProGram, I'm fairly sure that's there name, who makes 4 bolt main conversion kits for these blocks, so.... Oh, and did I mention they are made of Billet material? icon_smile_big
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Ghoste
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2007, 09:00:50 AM »

Would the four bolt mains be needed on the average deep skirt block like a Chrysler?  Or, would they be overkill until you get into the really high compression race motors with power adders?  In the realm of block filler?
Just asking.
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Hot_Rodder
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2007, 04:56:03 AM »

IMO.... The 4 bolt setup would be more for high horse power, super/turbo charged motors, NOX motors, high compression motors, ect.... Also, if you're gonna be turning some high RPM's... For a street motor, the 2 bolt set up should be plenty, especialy with some of the 2 bolt main caps out now for these motors.
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Challenger340
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2007, 10:39:35 AM »

IMHO, the power range, for acceptable use on the stock blocks, with 2 bolt iron caps, W/main studs, is around the 550-600 H.P. mark on the stock blocks.

Even at that, depending upon the tune, and HOW it's BALANCED, the #4 & #2 caps will take a beating eventually(capwalk).
It's Best to CHASE the imbalance/corrections, as far inside as possible, from either plane.
That, or target, and leave an overbalance condition present to counteract it. Sort of "the devil you know".

The 2 bolt Aluminum caps fitted/line honed to the stock blocks, seem to be the next best/first upgrade to consider, up to the 650-700 mark, from my experience anyways. Especially if you're gonna punch up the turbulence with a domed slug.

IMHO, I don't like the current girdles on the market for the stock blocks. They don't actually "capture" the caps. They help, but, the cap registers are still the only capture for lateral loads.

Just my opinion, but really, stock blocks, just aren't worth the mods required for useage above an ACTUAL 700 hp. (elevation dependant upon what the block actually "see's", not corrected power)
I've got a few running(low decks) above that mark, and I'm refreshening/reblocking every 2 seasons based upon what I'm finding inside on teardown. The rotating assemblies are fine, just the blocks are too stressed. Just ain't worth the money !

No wars wanted, just my opinions. Above 700 hp, get a better aftermarket block.

Bob out.
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RD
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2007, 12:43:07 PM »

the only thicker main webbing 400 blocks were the July 71 through October/November (based on who you ask) 71 casting blocks.  After that, the main webbing was the same with all 440's.

and listen to challenger, I have seen nothing but realistic, common sense, practical experience come from his postings on this board.  the man lives, breathes, and touches these blocks everyday... do not take his words lightly.  especially from someone "in the know".

Lastly, if you are not building a engine to handle over 550hp, then do not worry about all this nonsense.  Just go and find a block that magnafluxes (sp?) and sonic checks good and use it.

I see 440's at the track whooping up on stroker motors all day long.  It is how you build the motor and the setup of your car that counts, not just the displacement.
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firefighter3931
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2007, 03:21:46 PM »


IMHO, I don't like the current girdles on the market for the stock blocks. They don't actually "capture" the caps. They help, but, the cap registers are still the only capture for lateral loads.


Bob out.


Bob, have you seen the new BCR girdle setup ? My buddy Kevin just installed one on his supercharged 446 shortblock....it's the best (by far) girdle setup out there.  2thumbs


http://www.bcrproducts.com/caps_and_girdle_system.html



Ron
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Challenger340
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2007, 05:49:09 PM »

WOW !

 I hadn't seen that before Ron. Looks to be "by far" a better idea in girdles !

How high is buddy pushing it with the "lung" ?

Bob out.

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firefighter3931
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2007, 06:08:33 PM »

WOW !

 I hadn't seen that before Ron. Looks to be "by far" a better idea in girdles !

How high is buddy pushing it with the "lung" ?

Bob out.




Bob, that girdle setup is sweet ! The caps are studded into the block and the girdle is studded into the pan rail.....then the caps are attached to the girdle....it's very stout ! There's a bit of machining required to square everything up but it's a dynamite bottom end system.  icon_smile_big

He was running studded stock caps  Shocked  last season and the car went 135mph in the 1/4 at approx 4000 lb bodyweight. The bottom end is all good stuff ; eagle rods, diamond gas ported blower slugs....relatively light bobweight. But still at that power level he was really pushing it !  Tongue

The Moroso calculator says 780hp for that mph and weight   and this was with ~11 psi of boost. He's planning to squeeze it a little harder with some new pullies and see what she does.  Grin This is a street car and gets driven regularly to car shows and for groceries  lol Actually in street tune it runs fine on ul 93 pump swill.  Grin

Short of going with a megablock, this looks like the best option out there. As long as the block sonic checks out well i would thing that this is a nice option up the 700-750hp range.....maybe more ? Your thoughts ?


Ron


Ps Here's a pic of the green monster in action  devil


 


* MG_launch.jpg (97.24 KB, 800x627 - viewed 1200 times.)
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Blown68Coronet
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 09:46:38 AM »

Hey Ron
I "went for groceries"(Poutine to be exact) on sat and stopped by the scales. She weighs in at a svelte 3,520lbs nana.
Of course with me in it she comes in at 3,760 Cheesy.
Thought she was heavier judging on pushin it in&out of the garage shruggy
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Challenger340
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 10:00:28 AM »

Yeah, I gotta agree wholeheartedly Ron, that girdle system looks like "the shit" as far as girdles go !

I got get trying one out !

Ditto what ya said 'bout the sonic test checking out, then should be good to go @ the 750 mark for sure, IMHO.
All the problems we've encountered around that power level on the stock blocks, are tracing back to deadening the destructive harmonics, prior to pushing the cylinder walls out with the lower ratio mills.

I'm wondering, if a low fill on the water jacket, wouldn't also add some "sink", or,  "MASS" to the transfer as well ?
We've done this lots without cooling compromise on an electric pump, and it adds stiffening, as well as shortening the straddled cylinder wall length(seems stronger).

NICE CAR !  THAT photo makes my day !  THANKS.
Still something very dear to my heart, to see a B Body fly'in !
They look so cool, (those 1/4's), with decent balonies filling out the rear !
Mini-tub or back-half car ?

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Blown68Coronet
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2007, 11:16:54 AM »

Hey Bob,
Thanks, 2thumbs
The block also has a half fill. I think i covered all the bases now. shruggy
I "tubbed" it to the original frame rail, had 17 inches to play with so of course i jammed 31x16.5 Hoosier Quick Time Pro's and Ladder&coilovers. Cheesy
 Ron has lots of pics, i'm sure he'd send ya some if ya ask.


Kevin out
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firefighter3931
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2007, 09:11:24 PM »

Hey Ron
I "went for groceries"(Poutine to be exact) on sat and stopped by the scales. She weighs in at a svelte 3,520lbs nana.
Of course with me in it she comes in at 3,760 Cheesy.
Thought she was heavier judging on pushin it in&out of the garage shruggy


Wow, 3520....that's it ?  2thumbs I fihured it would be heavier than that....good news though ! Your "race weight" number is a little light don't ya think !  nana  lol

That friggin spool & those massive meats makes it "feel" heavier than it is, i'm sure !  Tongue

Lay off that poutine will ya....that stuff will kill ya !  Cheesy



Ron
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68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore 50 authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
kamkuda
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2007, 09:30:40 PM »

Mmmm that car is purdy.  Mean Green Machine

Rob
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