Ques about NASCAR wing cars

[CornDogsCharger]

I have a question that probably has been answered one time or another on this message board.  My question is this..... the Daytonas and Superbirds... along with all other cars.... did these cars originate as a regular passenger car?  I mean, were they standard cars that were modified into the finished product that you see on the race track?  Did the cars originally have VINs?  Did the manufactures pull the bodies off the assembly line once they were complete and send them off to the race teams?  Or did the race teams start with a bundle of parts to assemble? 

  Last spring I visited the museum at the Talladega Speedway and got to see two of the K&K Ins #71 Chargers.  I can't remember off hand if it was the Daytona or the 500, but one of the cars had a '66-'67 dash in it.  So I guess it was originally a Coronet or Satellite.  Anyways, if someone could possibly give me the low-down on the Nascars, I would greatly appreciate it. 

Thanks!
Justin

[nascarxx29]

The racers recieved bodies in white from the factory .By changing certain body panels a charger 500 .Could evolve into a daytona for the next race



  Re: Clone Or Custom
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2006, 09:04:49 AM »   

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Quote from: Ghoste on May 27, 2006, 08:24:31 AM
So how many folks would consider the actual winged race cars to be original?  How many would consider them to be clones?


                    i would say the  original race aero cars are the originals and the street    XX29's
( C500's & Daytonas are the clones ).because the race C5OO & DAYTONA had all ready been built and track tested and the 68/69 basic charger  bodies ( in white) received the aero parts first , and then chrysler had to build street legal copy's to be allowed to race , if that makes sense  but the XX29  chargers are the original  ones also because they was sold as aero cars from the dealer .

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Ghoste
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  Re: Clone Or Custom
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2006, 09:05:48 AM »   

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I think they are both original to two different categories.  To me, it was a bit of a trick question and I never really considered Geno's point about the street cars being clones.
I only asked the question because Danny mentioned liking the originals so much, he hated seeing them cloned.  I understood exactly what he meant but it did occur to me that all of the race cars were most likely 68 models with updated sheet metal.

[CornDogsCharger]

So take for example, the '66 Charger Nascar.  Did it start out as a regular production car and then was gutted and modified into a nascar?  And if it was a production car.... did it start out as a hemi production car or a 318 car that had a hemi dropped in.  Sorry for all of the questions, it is just something that I have always wondered but could never get a definate answer.
Justin

[Aero426]

So take for example, the '66 Charger Nascar.  Did it start out as a regular production car and then was gutted and modified into a nascar?  And if it was a production car.... did it start out as a hemi production car or a 318 car that had a hemi dropped in.  Sorry for all of the questions, it is just something that I have always wondered but could never get a definate answer.
Justin

The car is question (69 Charger standard nose) was most likely built from a body in white.     I've seen that dash.   That particular car has some wierd stuff on it, and does not look to me like a car built in '68.

Some of the 1964 cars were gutted street cars built by Ray Nichels or the major teams like Cotton Owens or the Pettys.   As time moved forward, by 1966 cars began to be built up from bodies in white.   During this period, all Chrysler stock car race parts and cars were constructed by Nichels Engineering in Indiana.   Petty Enterprises built up their own cars, but the stuff still flowed to them from Nichels.   

In 1971, Petty took over the car parts and construction business from Nichels.   As things evolved, the cars were no longer built up from bodies in white, but from individual pieces built on a chassis jig and fixtures. 

Once again, after the early days of the Chrysler race program in '64, no cars were built from tear downs.    No race wing cars were built from street cars, except the #88 Daytona which is rumored to have been a Charger 500 press car that was stolen, stripped and recovered. 

[learical1]

Once again, after the early days of the Chrysler race program in '64, no cars were built from tear downs.    No race wing cars were built from street cars, except the #88 Daytona which is rumored to have been a Charger 500 press car that was stolen, stripped and recovered. 

Doug, a question for you.  Probably in 1978, I gave Jim Radke a large picture postcard of Joe Frasson (sp?) next to his Daytona.  Jim studied the picture for a couple of minutes and said that it was a street car turned into a Nascar Grand National stock car.  He didn't explain how he came to this conclusion.  Any comments?

[Ghoste]

Corndog,
I have a picture on the wall in my garage showing Sam McQuags 66 Charger under construction.  It is in the early phases of getting converted and it is literally a "body in white".  I'll take it down and scan it if you want.

[CornDogsCharger]

Doug, that is some awesome information.  I have a magazine from 1970 that covers the build-up of stock cars. The book never really give me a definate answer to what I was wondering.  It did have some cool photos.  In the "Body" section, they went to the Petty Shop to cover te buildup.  Richard Petty was quoted as saying that he liked to use factory Newport lower control arms because they were stronger than B-body arms.  They also have a grainy photo of Petty's Superbird being skined. 

Ghoste, I would love to see that '66 Charger picture you are talking about.  If you like, you can post it here or send it to me at CornDog05@yahoo.com

Thanks
Justin
"CornDog"

[Ghoste]

Here you are.

[Aero426]

Here you are.

That's from the Motor Trend article, "Ray Nichels tells how he stiffens the stockers."     That's a good issue and not too hard to find. 

[Aero426]

Once again, after the early days of the Chrysler race program in '64, no cars were built from tear downs.    No race wing cars were built from street cars, except the #88 Daytona which is rumored to have been a Charger 500 press car that was stolen, stripped and recovered. 

Doug, a question for you.  Probably in 1978, I gave Jim Radke a large picture postcard of Joe Frasson (sp?) next to his Daytona.  Jim studied the picture for a couple of minutes and said that it was a street car turned into a Nascar Grand National stock car.  He didn't explain how he came to this conclusion.  Any comments?

No clue.   With Nichels building LOTS of new cars in '68 and used 66-67 chassis readily available to have sheet metal updated, Jim's comment does not make sense, at least to me. 

Considering all the structural mods necessary to build a raceworthy Grand National car,  it would not make financial sense to try and do it yourself from a street car.    When you really start looking hard at the race cars, by the wing car era, there really isn't much of anything stock on those cars.   The unibody is heavily reworked, K frame unique, the brakes and suspension have absolutely NOTHING to do with production except for the general torsion bar layout.   Wheels are double center special pieces.   And the list goes on...

[Johnny Daytona]

In 69 the car thar Richard Brickhouse won the Taladaga race was a 63 or 64 Chassis That had a body put on it. Did any body see the chassis that was on ebay last year in Ohio, that was red and rough shape?  I did some research on it and found out that was Bay Darnell 69 Charger 500 and that it was a Nichels car. That it got several body changes. I was high bidder but did not make the reserve. It has been sold.   I know the 69 race was a lame attempt due to the strike and all. Still that car ran good elsewhere too.

[Brock Samson]

so when did the racer's actually move from being stock cars to the modified race cars?.. 
allot of the '63 cars look bone stock, but then by '65 they're looking wicked like the banana car... i wasn't old enough till '67 to be cognisant of the differences.

[Ghoste]

Not really a firm date Brock.  It's more like an evolutionary era that took place gradually through the 60's.
I didn't know the 99 car was an old chassis, I always thought it was a current one.

[daytonalo]

What is a double center rim

[CornDogsCharger]

Hey Johnny Daytona.  I don't rememebr seeing that one.  Do you have any pictures?  What did the bid go up to and do you know what it eventually sold for.  That would have been a cool find! 

Justin
"CornDog"

[Johnny Daytona]

 Hey  Corndog I bid 6300 for it. I don't have any pictures left of it. I deleated those files. But now it seems that I have become the noted historian for this car. What realy made me mad was That I would have paid more than I bid. My first thoughts were that it was a Nichles chassis by the layout of the bars. Then I got missled that it was built in 72 and that it was the car that won the USAC Texas 500 in 76, and not a Nichles chassis. So I did not bid again Only to find out from the new owner that it has a 69 fire wall in it. And perfect welds on the bars. Signs of Nichles. He was suppose to email some pics of it. I will ask him to resend. 

[BROCK]

Here is an old trick question:  "How many 69 Daytonas did MoPar produce for NASCAR racing?"
The answer is none:  they were rebodied older chassis.  I read a magazene article about a NASCAR
wing car that was found with Magnum bodywork & restored to it's former guies.  Trouble is
magazenes don't research facts on feature cars - they just spout the car owner's story.  It's
taken 30 years of putting up with that fact to gleen 1 page of real facts out of those bums.

[Aero426]

What is a double center rim

The 8" or so wheel center where the lugs attach is double thickness as stock.  When they build the wheel, they welded a second center piece over the top as a reinforcement.   Applies to both Chrysler and H-M wheels.

[Aero426]

In 69 the car thar Richard Brickhouse won the Taladaga race was a 63 or 64 Chassis That had a body put on it.

With full factory support, running a six year old chassis in 1969 doesn't make sense.   Not to mention the evolutionary changes along the way.   Where did you get this information from?

[Aero426]

so when did the racer's actually move from being stock cars to the modified race cars?.. 

About 1951, LOL. 

This is an older book from the early 1990's, but John Craft does a nice job of taking you through the years.  LOTS of old stuff.   It is out of print, but you can get this on Amazon for cheap.

[Ghoste]

What were the levels of mods they were doing that far back Doug?

[Aero426]

What were the levels of mods they were doing that far back Doug?

It became clear after the early races that pure stock stuff was not going to hold up in the tire, suspension and axle areas.  By the early 1950's, if a manufacturer offered a heavier duty part, it was allowed to be used.   Heavier suspension (like taxi/police), bigger brakes, reinforcing the brake backing plates, 1-ton truck rear ends.  Hudsons used full floating axles, and their multiple carb option on the street car came from racing.    Smokey once talked about the rule of no porting or polishing.  But they didn't say you couldn't pump an abrasive slurry through the heads and manifolds to clean things up a bit.     

[Ghoste]

So more like hot rodded than stock?

[Aero426]

So more like hot rodded than stock?

Pretty much.  Frames were stock.  As time went on, you got a gusset or reinforcement here or there.    A lot of the early stuff was simply safety related, or, "How do we keep this stuff from breaking".   Eventually NASCAR moved from its position of "strictly stock" to allowing some modifications in the name of safety.   In some cases parts were created for NASCAR and available "over the counter".   The Aero car bodies are possibly the ultimate expression of this philosophy.

When you look at Ford in 1967 starting to graft full frame '65 Galaxie front clips into Fairlane unibodies (again, for strength), it's hard to make an argument that much was stock.  In '68 Chrysler created the soon to be illegal 2" by 2" car by separating the body and platform at the rockers and re-jiggering things they way they wanted.    It maintained correct ride height, but the 2" drop of the front clip caused them to cast up special intakes with the carb recessed so the hood could close.   The fake #88 in the Talladega museum is one of these two cars.   So is it production based?   Well yes,  but it sure ain't "stock". 

[pettybird]

So that's why the "bathtub" intake? 



I was excited to see someone post about the NASCAR cars because I wanted you to answer...You'll forget more about the race stuff than I'll ever know.

[Brock Samson]

 I actully have that book, just pulled it off the shelf..  I guess it's more fun to ask you guys then it is to try to remember... 
I guess  C.R.S. rears it's ugly head yet again,..
Ok..  it's goin in the "library"..   

[CornDogsCharger]

This topic sure has become even more interesting!!  In the picture below, I always seemed to think the fender looked handmade.  Not so much because of the wheel opening, but mostly because of the area down low where it ties into the nose cone.  To me, the side of the car looks much to have been sectioned into a lower profile car.  Looks like #5 took a wild ride at Daytona. 

Justin
"CornDog"

[Aero426]

This topic sure has become even more interesting!!  In the picture below, I always seemed to think the fender looked handmade.  Not so much because of the wheel opening, but mostly because of the area down low where it ties into the nose cone.  To me, the side of the car looks much to have been sectioned into a lower profile car.  Looks like #5 took a wild ride at Daytona. 

Justin
"CornDog"

The photo of Baker's car appearing sectioned is more of the way it was originally posted online.   When it was posted in the original web editor, if you click and drag the corner of the photo to make it larger or smaller, it did not proportionally adjust the photo.  Consequently you can inadvertently adjust the profile of the car so it looks thicker or thinner.   

[Johnny Daytona]

In 69 the car that Richard Brickhouse won the Talladega race was a 63 or 64 Chassis That had a body put on it.

With full factory support, running a six year old chassis in 1969 doesn't make sense.   Not to mention the evolutionary changes along the way.   Where did you get this information from?

Ok you called me out on this one. I was thinking crazy. It wasn't the 69 Talladega Race that was won with a 63  frame. . It was the 73 spring race won by Dick Brooks driving the Crawford brothers Plymonth. that was a re skinned 63 model.  And my sources are my old time friend Pete Hamilton, Who also drove that car in 73. I will call Jim Crawford and comfirm it if needed. 69 was the strike race that had a host of different cars in it from some USAC contenders.  To even some grand American mustangs to fill out the field.  I had crossed stories told to me by another driver involved in that race. Don Schisler better known to Dukes Of Hazard fanatics as a member of the General Lee building team for the first year in Atlanta. His description of the morphedite he drove was stuck on my brain.
  And as for those evolutionary changes taking place...  After going through my files and digging the notes that  Larry Rathgab gave to my brother On chassis set up for supper speedways. And reviewing the calculations of roll rates required with what sized bars.  The roll centers and the suggested suspension heights. How he lists It as Working on all b body cars. Then it was easy to see how it worked.  As far as I know the earth has the same amount of gravity now as it did in 63. Rules of Physics and geometry are the same for the most part. And even today Every nextell cup chassis is still based off of a 64 Malibu frame with 64 Chevy truck trailing arms.  once you get it right. evolution  slows down.  And that is evolutionary.    everything in good fun John

[BROCK]

Doug brings up a good point about proportions & pictures.  That picture sure looks good though

The front fender is definately massaged; looks almost as good as Bobby Isaacs K&K car at Bonneville

Below is from Car and Driver May 1968 (still pertinent to the topic if a little earlier in the game)


an excerpt from Deadline for Daytona
...When rookie Butch Hartman parked his relatively stock Charger next to Ray Fox's special, factory-backed Charger
in the garage area, Fox put up a great fuss to get it moved.  Why?  Because Hartman's car stood in bold contrast
to exactly how much chopping and slicing had gone into making the factory cars more streamlined.  Richard Petty
somehow managed to qualify his Plymouth Road Runner 5 MPH faster than any other Chrysler product and a lot of
people attributed it to a rough finish black top that had been painted on the car.  But when a magazine photographer
mamged to sneak a picture of the strange baffling and quasi-belly pans in the Plymouth's engine compartment, one
of the Petty crew demanded his film.

The 68 Charger mentioned above may have been a 2 by 2 car with nothing else changed.  Who knows.
One thing is certain, no matter which camp you're in, even Ford or Chevy, it is alterations made to our hero's cars
that were part of their success & will continue to fascinate us for many years to come

[Brock Samson]

check out the #6 car's side quarter from the bottom of the door to the rear tire, sure looks rolled and wider to me,.. or is it flared?

Chargers stock chargers have a definate crease that one lacks...

I'm a huge fan of the Daytona race cars not so much the Superbirds... 

[Aero426]

Below is from Car and Driver May 1968 (still pertinent to the topic if a little earlier in the game)


an excerpt from Deadline for Daytona
...When rookie Butch Hartman parked his relatively stock Charger next to Ray Fox's special, factory-backed Charger
in the garage area, Fox put up a great fuss to get it moved.  Why?  Because Hartman's car stood in bold contrast
to exactly how much chopping and slicing had gone into making the factory cars more streamlined.  Richard Petty
somehow managed to qualify his Plymouth Road Runner 5 MPH faster than any other Chrysler product and a lot of
people attributed it to a rough finish black top that had been painted on the car.  But when a magazine photographer
mamged to sneak a picture of the strange baffling and quasi-belly pans in the Plymouth's engine compartment, one
of the Petty crew demanded his film.

The 68 Charger mentioned above may have been a 2 by 2 car with nothing else changed.  Who knows.
One thing is certain, no matter which camp you're in, even Ford or Chevy, it is alterations made to our hero's cars
that were part of their success & will continue to fascinate us for many years to come

Butch and Dick Hartman would have gotten an education when they went south.   This was before they became a powerhouse team in USAC stock car racing.   In '68 they bought a brand new Charger from Nichels.  Eventually they figured out those body mods.   Their third gen Chargers were pretty cheated up.

There were only TWO of the 2 x 2 cars, a Dodge and a Plymouth.  They were developed to run the July 1968 Firecracker 400.   Bobby Isaac had one and I "believe" the Plymouth was the Mario Rossi's entered #22. Per George Wallace of Chrysler Engineering , Petty for sure did not have an 2 x 2 car.   His Daytona cars for '68 WERE tricked out though.    Rathgeb and John Pointer have said that the 68 Petty cars for Daytona did not conform the the engineering suggestions and for the Feb race. Pettys car was the only one able to qualify close to the Fords, several MPH faster than any other Mopar.

The upshot of the 2 x 2 program was that Chrysler got caught and were told to raise the cars.  They were allowed to run that race and were told not to bring them back.    The Isaac car became the mule Daytona at the proving grounds.      No word on the Plymouth's fate for sure.   Chrysler put a lot of time and $$$ into the 2 x 2 program only to not be able to use it.

Another thing Chrysler was lobbying for at this time was a reinforced wheel.   It had a cover as part of the wheel with a small opening in the center to access the five lugs.  No photos have been found, but it is similar to what was used on CART Indy cars in the early 1990's.    Chrysler negotiated hard for this as a "safety" device.  The reality was it was an aerodynamic aid with a proven benefit.  NASCAR did not buy it.

[Aero426]

check out the #6 car's side quarter from the bottom of the door to the rear tire, sure looks rolled and wider to me,.. or is it flared?

Chargers stock chargers have a definate crease that one lacks...

It probably has been massaged out wider.   The templates were not what they are today.   The lack of the crease could simply be that it's got some mud hiding it.   In the late 1980's. Robert Gee, the metal man on Isaac's K & K cars was quoted as saying, "There ain't nothing I can't make with pop rivets and bondo."

[hemigeno]

Doug,

I had read elsewhere that there were a total of three 2x2 '68 Chargers built - no mention made of any Plymouths, but that doesn't mean there were none.  One of the Chargers was the Isaac car you mentioned, and another was the #6 Cotton Owens car driven by Al Unser which finished 4th that day.  Not sure who had the 3rd car (or if there really was one), but this author reported three Chargers.  The same author said that the Isaac car was the one used for as the on-track mule car for testing Daytona parts - but you probably have much better information/resources than I.

[Aero426]

Doug,

I had read elsewhere that there were a total of three 2x2 '68 Chargers built - no mention made of any Plymouths, but that doesn't mean there were none.  One of the Chargers was the Isaac car you mentioned, and another was the #6 Cotton Owens car driven by Al Unser which finished 4th that day.  Not sure who had the 3rd car (or if there really was one), but this author reported three Chargers.  The same author said that the Isaac car was the one used for as the on-track mule car for testing Daytona parts - but you probably have much better information/resources than I.

The Unser car (chassis 046) that finished fourth was in the February Daytona race.  The x2 cars did not exist at that time and only ran the July race.  The Isaac car became the Daytona mule at the PG.   The Unser car 046 (non x2 car)  did go to the PG and became a Charger 500 development car.

[hemigeno]

Gotcha...  I hadn't checked the results for the July race to confirm what I had read.  I also should have logged where I read that at (but I'm pretty sure it was an Anthony Young book).

[moparstuart]

 check this car out        http://www.mopardealer.com/petty3.htm

[pettybird]

Very cool--why didn't they media blast the chassis???

Very, very cool to see how the chassis and body mount.

[CornDogsCharger]

I love seeing photos like the ones on the Petty '72 Charger site.  I like to see how the vintage stock cars were build and how much of them are actually stock.  To me it even appears the floor is somewhat stock too.  It even has the little diagonal grooves in the floor.  What do everyone think?

Justin
"CornDog"

[Aero426]

Very cool--why didn't they media blast the chassis???

Very, very cool to see how the chassis and body mount.

If anything not blasting the chassis preserves the provenance of the car in the layers of paint.   If there's ever a dispute or the history is called into question, a little sandpaper is all it takes.  Once you blast it off, it's just hearsay.

[pettybird]

That makes sense.  I would have media blasted a bunch of it, though, especially outside of the driver's compartment.  The page says they spent four weeks sanding, so they must have taken a good deal of it off anyway.

[Howie]

               Whatever happened to that chassis?

[moparstuart]

Here are some pics of what is suppose to be a Nichles Car from 69. The history I have is that It was raced in USAC. That it was a 69 Charger 500. I see alot of Nichles looking aspects about the car The front clip, and I see alot of major repairs and patching that is not. What concerns me is the rear shock mounts don't look right for a Nichles car. But they could have been modified over the years. Alot of years I understand. Beyond the mid eighties as a saturday night dirt tracker in Ohio.

if i had the car it would be a 500 or wing car race car    , no doubt in my mind

[Aero426]

Here are some pics of what is suppose to be a Nichles Car from 69. The history I have is that It was raced in USAC. That it was a 69 Charger 500. I see alot of Nichles looking aspects about the car The front clip, and I see alot of major repairs and patching that is not. What concerns me is the rear shock mounts don't look right for a Nichles car. But they could have been modified over the years. Alot of years I understand. Beyond the mid eighties as a saturday night dirt tracker in Ohio.

Is this the one that was reported to be Bay Darnell's car?

[Aero426]

A Nichels car at this time would have a fabricated fire wall. 

The front end looks like Nichels to me, especially the K frame and the two short bolt on bars from the firewall to the outer tubes.   

Darnell sometimes ran his car with some 500 trim, but I don't think it ever had a complete 500 package.    The two newer Chargers he built for the 1972 season were not Nichels, but were very good cars. 

[Johnny Daytona]

The bolt in bars are what I noticed and remembered of nichels cars. But the only one that I ever got to see close and often was the one that was Cotton Owens in 72 The white 09 that Pete Hamilton raced at Daytona in 73.
   It is my understanding from what Bay told me about the 72 cars is he had help from someone from Nichels while building those cars. I would think it was Chuck or Richie most likely.

[Mike DC]

Hey you guys.  Great thread. 
I know a few general things about the construction of the '60s cars.  Not really specific to a given car, just relevant to unibody cars in that era:


--  In the early/mid 1960s, the crews were still starting with asembly-line shells and welding cages into them.
By the 1970s, they were starting by building a rollcage/chassis first.  Then the skin came later in the process. 


--  The modern era of 100% current cars every year was definitely not what they were doing back then.  A Charger Dyatona might have been built a certain way when they started constructing it in 1969, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be another bucks-down team using an older chassis with a Daytona skin on it too. 


--  The first basic body templates starting showing up in about '66 and '67.  The 1966 Daytona race was looking pretty pretty snub-nosed and that was when they drew the line.  I think it was Smokey Eunick that showed up with a homemade template to argue that his funny-looking '66 Chevelle was legit, and that started it all.   The next big thing after the blunted noses were checked was the rush to lower the cars overall.


--  The crews were fabricating a lot of the cars' midsections even before the subframe rails became fully fabricated.  For a while they were cutting the center out of a car, building the floor/cab area from scratch, and then mating it back to the subframe rails at the front & rear extremities of the chassis structure.  They still used factory floor sections a lot of the time (sheetmetal), but I don't know if it was a demand or if it was just the most practical thing to do.  It seems common to use older stuff under the cars than what the skin was, though.  (Maybe it was just easier/cheaper to get raw-material sheetmetal from a couple years before rather than hacking up a brand-new car off a dealership?  That issue probably at least played a role in the non-sponsored independent rides, if not the factory cars.) 



--  I've read that it was about 1969 or 1970 when NASCAR let the crews abandon the factory unibody rails entirely. 

I know this date sounds too early, but stay with me here:

The teams had gotten to the point where the demand for factory subframe rails was basically nothing but a formality anyway, and letting the crews switch to raw rectangular tubing for the rails was just easier to rebuild after a crash.  There were still factory subframe rails being used for years after this 1969/70 era though.  This was just when the rule itself was relaxed, not when every car switched over every inch of its metal.  And even when the teams no longer HAD to use factory rails, they still had to use a certain amount of factory dimensions, so for a while it would still have been more practical to at lleast begin with a set of assembly-line subframe rails when building the car. 

[odcics2]

 

Interesting read. We know a bit more now about old race cars!