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Author Topic: 440 source roller rockers  (Read 6679 times)
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« on: February 01, 2009, 07:03:03 AM »

Hi guys I have a 440 I built 2 years ago. Engine is still sitting on stand. My car is not done yet.  Im reconsidering parts I have on the engine. I bought these 440 source roller rockers. I only have them because I needed to adjust my valves because the dumb machine shop ended up having the valves at different heights. With a straight edge across them they were all different. So I bought the 440 source 1.6 ratio aluminum roller rockers with needle bearings. However I also have a cam that is much more radical than stock. Cam is hydraulic flat tappet
COM21-227-4

RPM RANGE 2000-5800

ADV. DURATION 275/287

DURATION @ .050 231/237

VALVE LIFT .525/.525

LOBE CENTER 110

The 1.6 ratio makes the actual lift .560 and makes the duration more?? I have arp bolts and aluminum hold downs. I also have comp cams dual valve springs. Im using ported 67 915 heads with manley stainless 2.14 in 1.74 ex with hardened seats. This is a street engine with 10-1 compression and stock stroke .30 over. I dont plan on drag racing. I just dont want these rockers to blow up. I have been hearing that any aluminum rocker is not a good idea?
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave
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aifilaw
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 07:04:01 PM »

I purchased some myself, but have not finished the engine either.
I know that they have sold several hundred of those rockers, and I only know of one quality issue with them that was posted here a while back, do a search and you should pull it up with pictures. I believe one of the shaft pins worked its way out.
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daytonalo
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 07:02:17 AM »

If they are cast alum , throw them in the trash , they have no right being installed in any HP engine !!! My engine builder installed them in my last engine and one broke , spilling needle bearings everywhere
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purple charger
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 07:09:21 AM »

The only problem I had is according to 440 Source you cannot tighten the set more then 10 pounds, On start up  we broke three.  Had to take the complete motor apart to clean everything.  Look at all the different brands that are made of Aluminium; like you I have  you I have a motor waiting for the paint to get done. and waiting and  waiting almost 4 years
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mally69
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 09:50:05 AM »

Take my advise on this. I had a set and i had a roller on the tip break loose twice, but on different sides. the first time was mild and didnt do much other than rap like crazy but the second time was a doooooozy. The pin that holds the roller in place snapped off which made like a fork at the end of the rocker which pushed on the retainer that caused the locks to dissconnect from the valve which in turn dropped a valve. I wouldnt use them. For a few axtra more bucks just buy the crane gold rockers.  Wink.
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badass
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2009, 12:19:48 PM »

How about Harland Sharp I think made in Clevland Ohio?
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2009, 07:15:31 PM »

I think there's some generalizations being made here.
yes the iron ductile stock rockers are bulletproof, we know.
For those looking for roller rockers, there are plenty out there on the market. And I have seen several sets, and heard of hundreds of sets of cast aluminum rockers being used on engines making 500-1000 HP and surviving just fine.
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mally69
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 09:29:58 AM »

the ones i had that broke were from 440 source.
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 08:58:33 PM »

I read the post from about your 440 source rockers roller tip breaking off and ruining your engine. You had not one but TWO fail! There is NO way after reading how cheap the 440 source rockers are. They look very nice and the SAME as the high dollar brands, but the China metals are probably not as good as USA made rockers. Im not going to risk ruining a engine I spent $5000 building.

I also think JESSEL rockers are JUNK. Did anyone read the most recent mopar muscle? There is a 440 build that used JESSEL rockers and TWO of the valve lash adjuster studs sheered off. The engine was running like this. When they went to adjust valve lash the adjuster was separated. So, Whats the deal with rockers arms always failing? I guess the most bullet proof design is the stock type iron ductile rockers from mopar performance I think they are the best choice for a street engine.
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mally69
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 09:32:15 AM »

I read the post from about your 440 source rockers roller tip breaking off and ruining your engine. You had not one but TWO fail! There is NO way after reading how cheap the 440 source rockers are. They look very nice and the SAME as the high dollar brands, but the China metals are probably not as good as USA made rockers. Im not going to risk ruining a engine I spent $5000 building.

I also think JESSEL rockers are JUNK. Did anyone read the most recent mopar muscle? There is a 440 build that used JESSEL rockers and TWO of the valve lash adjuster studs sheered off. The engine was running like this. When they went to adjust valve lash the adjuster was separated. So, Whats the deal with rockers arms always failing? I guess the most bullet proof design is the stock type iron ductile rockers from mopar performance I think they are the best choice for a street engine.

I agree about the ductile iron rockers, those are good and not that expensive, they just aren't rollerised. I run crane gold alum roller rockers and I like them and they are decent also. But if you have the extra oney I would try and shoot for TD alum roller rockers, or the steel comp pro magnum roller rockers.
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oldschool
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 12:39:17 PM »

I read the post from about your 440 source rockers roller tip breaking off and ruining your engine. You had not one but TWO fail! There is NO way after reading how cheap the 440 source rockers are. They look very nice and the SAME as the high dollar brands, but the China metals are probably not as good as USA made rockers. Im not going to risk ruining a engine I spent $5000 building.

I also think JESSEL rockers are JUNK. Did anyone read the most recent mopar muscle? There is a 440 build that used JESSEL rockers and TWO of the valve lash adjuster studs sheered off. The engine was running like this. When they went to adjust valve lash the adjuster was separated. So, Whats the deal with rockers arms always failing? I guess the most bullet proof design is the stock type iron ductile rockers from mopar performance I think they are the best choice for a street engine.

have you ever used jessel rocker arms? what makes you say they are junk,just a mag article? their could be alot of reasons why the adjusters failed,not just the arms are junk.i use them in my 572" motor with a seat preasure of 260# and open 600#. i turn the motor to 7200 rpm,and have never had a problem.alot of pro stock guys use them in their 3000 hp motors. i will go out on a limb and say,if you spent $ 5000 on your motor, that a jessel setup will be WAY MORE than you need,and your motor could not hurt them!
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 12:49:23 PM »

Anybody else tried the stainless steel rockers that have been on ebay lately?  They look like fine pieces.  Brass bushing on the shaft, adjustable cup back side (so they use standard double-ball pushrods), roller tip, and stainless steel.  I'm trying a set and they look rock solid, line up perfectly, were a breeze to adjust, etc.  Obviously they're ebay stuff, so we'll see how it lasts, but they *look* well constructed...  We'll see how they hold up ... assuming I get the guts to actually crank my engine Smiley
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mally69
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 12:59:38 PM »

Anybody else tried the stainless steel rockers that have been on ebay lately?  They look like fine pieces.  Brass bushing on the shaft, adjustable cup back side (so they use standard double-ball pushrods), roller tip, and stainless steel.  I'm trying a set and they look rock solid, line up perfectly, were a breeze to adjust, etc.  Obviously they're ebay stuff, so we'll see how it lasts, but they *look* well constructed...  We'll see how they hold up ... assuming I get the guts to actually crank my engine Smiley

You got any pics of them?
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defiance
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 01:26:47 PM »

Not really...  kinda ...

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,44241.0.html

There's a super-close-up pic of the back when I was fiddling with some pushrods I got for near-free (ended up being too short, but oh well, they were dirt cheap!).  I'll get some actual pics of them later and post again.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 08:02:46 PM »

Here's an auction.  The pics are pretty accurate.  I'll see about getting pics of my set on the engine in a bit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOPAR-383-400-440-Stainless-1-5-Roller-Rockers-Shafts_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem380101600502QQitemZ380101600502QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

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defiance
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 08:24:55 PM »

Here we go Smiley



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defiance
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 08:27:23 PM »

last one-

So yeah, they look rock solid line up and set up nice, and the price includes rockers, shafts, bolts, hold-downs, and spacers- and given that they're bushed, the pins on the roller tips are relatively huge, and they're made of stainless, it seems like there's really not much that could go wrong...


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firefighter3931
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 08:29:03 PM »

I read the post from about your 440 source rockers roller tip breaking off and ruining your engine. You had not one but TWO fail! There is NO way after reading how cheap the 440 source rockers are. They look very nice and the SAME as the high dollar brands, but the China metals are probably not as good as USA made rockers. Im not going to risk ruining a engine I spent $5000 building.

I also think JESSEL rockers are JUNK. Did anyone read the most recent mopar muscle? There is a 440 build that used JESSEL rockers and TWO of the valve lash adjuster studs sheered off. The engine was running like this. When they went to adjust valve lash the adjuster was separated. So, Whats the deal with rockers arms always failing? I guess the most bullet proof design is the stock type iron ductile rockers from mopar performance I think they are the best choice for a street engine.

have you ever used jessel rocker arms? what makes you say they are junk,just a mag article? their could be alot of reasons why the adjusters failed,not just the arms are junk.i use them in my 572" motor with a seat preasure of 260# and open 600#. i turn the motor to 7200 rpm,and have never had a problem.alot of pro stock guys use them in their 3000 hp motors. i will go out on a limb and say,if you spent $ 5000 on your motor, that a jessel setup will be WAY MORE than you need,and your motor could not hurt them!


Jesel makes top shelf stuff....and that is reflected in the price. They are far from "junk"  lol

The article in question was from the latest MM and the rocker arms were NOT Jesel, they are in fact 1.7 ratio Harland Sharps. Harland Sharp rockers are excellent quality as well. The builder in this case is pushing the envelope with this build to create a dyno mule magazine engine. The 1.7 rockers and .800 lift at the valve with a solid roller cam that is running obscene spring pressure needs some upgraded hardware. Smith Brothers sells hardened adjusters that are bulletproof....that is what i would use in that type of application.


As for the original question ; 440 source rockers or any "budget" off shore rocker would not be my first choice. There are areas you can cheat on but the valvetrain is not one of them.  Twocents



Ron
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2009, 10:36:41 AM »

Thats what I thought, what he said :yesnod:Those horsepower challenge motors are looking for the biggest number , probelly never see anything but the dyno, but is a good super stress test and they seem to use the high quality stuff.but they dont know anything do they? I learned the hard way ,still learning. Everyone likes to save hard earned money and spend it wisely .Personaly I took my 440 sourse sticker off of my welding helmet for now Im on a serious made in USA kick its hard
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 03:28:02 PM »

I have been using the Comp Cams ProMagnum rockers for some time now. They have held up to my monthly romps down the drag strip @ 6800 rpm. (using nitrous). I have had the push rods come out of the cups twice but that was after mis-shifts.
Driver error.   smilielol
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frederick
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2009, 03:41:01 PM »

Defiance, are your rockers made by CAT, or better quality?
http://www.catpep.com/catproducts/rockerarmandgirdle/ssmountrocker.asp
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defiance
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2009, 04:58:08 PM »

I believe they are CAT.
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2009, 10:46:08 AM »

I gotta add my  Twocents

I think the vast majority of Rocker Arm related problems, which results in the usual "bad product" reputations, is largely a result of "bad practise" as much as "poor product".

Don't shoot me here !

But, I've seen many times, the "BEST" Rockers on the market FAIL, and equally numerous times, the supposedly "inferior" Rocker systems give quite good service, for the money-spent !

What I'm talking here is two-fold;
1.) "Rocker Arm Geometry" and it's importance , as related to survivability of the Valvetrain.
2.) Check, Check, and CHECK again, as there are no true "bolt-on" Rockers Systems anymore, for our 50 yr old design engines, and plethora of aftermarket pieces out there for them.

Example;
Although I do NOT, Reccomend Crane Gold Rockers for applications above 360 lb open pressures(Solid Rollers), favoring "better" stuff to cover my own ass,
I can't argue the fact with my Customers,
that I've still got Drag Engines out there(800 hp stuff) , that come back for "freshening" every 300-350 pulls or so, that are running Roller Cams @ 220 lb seat, 600 open pressure @ 7000 rpm with the Crane Gold Race Rockers(cheapies).

YES, we always cycle them out at freshening, in favor of a new set, and always Rec he keep a few "spares in the Trailer", but they seem to live just fine !
Very tough to "upsell" Customers into $1000 U.S. set of Rockers while refreshening, when his "cheapies" that cost $249 U.S., work just fine !

We use a Sunnen VGS to rough cut all our Valve Seats to the same height(important)
We go back in with stones, THATS RIGHT, S T O N E S, to correct the concentricity, (because if anybody believes a VGS is "perfect", well, you go you ahead).
Then,
We spend TIME during mock-up, to build the correct geometry pushrod, and Oiling.

Again, I'm too long winded here, my point being, when it comes to Rockers & Geometry, spend the time to READ up, then Check it when installing.
Thats the only way to make even "cheapy" Rockers look like Champs !

Bob out.


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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2009, 11:12:22 AM »

Not long winded at all Bob.  I don't have your experience at all but I do know that everything with cars seems to come down to prep.  The best paint and bodywork?  Prep.  The best drivers will always mentally run through the race several times before the next run.  I've heard of Formula 1 drivers spending days in a simulator prior to each race.  Engines?  Prep, prep, and prep.  The time spend in poring over the tiniest of details and making each of tem perfect is what a blueprinted engine is really all about and it's why a stock eliminator version of our cars can run soooooo much quicker with it's extremely limited modifications compared to our stock versions with all of their quickie bolt ons.
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2009, 02:20:18 PM »

i bought a set of the 440 source rollers 1.5 ratio i installed them but havent run the engine yet. are they that bad?
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