Teaser 470 numbers

[idahogrumpy]

       We went to Kidd performance in Twin Falls Idaho Saturday. Bolted the 470 up to the dyno and after break in had some pleasant realities hit us right between the eye's. We did eight pulls,,, with a best of 620hp and 600 ft lbs of torque! (corrected) All on 91 octane Chevron premium gasoline. 105-108 volumetric efficiently all the way through the pull. Dyno pulls and build will be posted soon. This thing was worth the headaches. More to come,,,, Kyle 

[Dans 68]

Very nice. Looking forward to seeing the build and numbers. I'm seriously thinking of doing a 470 build (hell, I just bought a block so who am I kidding. I will be doing one. )

Dan

[doctorpimp]

Holy crap!!!  I'm running a 470 but haven't been to the dyno with it yet (in fact was only able to drive a few times) I can only hope for so high!
I was guestimating 500 hp 500 tq on mine...
Gotta get to a dyno, now that i live in the big city!!! LOL

Please post your combo

[firefighter3931]

That's great news Kyle.  I just got an e-mail from Scott and he's tickled pink with the results....damn impressive for a 470 on pump gas. 

Glad to hear the Firecores arrived in time for the dyno thrash. 

Looking forward to the build details and dyno numbers ! 



Ron

[idahogrumpy]

I am a little disappointed after seeing the actual print out. I was wrong about the torque number, only went to 590, not over 600 as stated,,, Sorry!  I thought we would get from idle up numbers and as you can see here that did not happen.    I will inquire why we did not get the whole run on the print out.The build is yet to come. I need to gather all of the correct information as my memory does not serve me well at all. More to come Kyle.

[doctorpimp]

That's still nothing to cough at!!!  LOL
TQ looks pretty flat any way!

Why would the VE be over 100% ? Forced induction

[idahogrumpy]

I wont claim to know why the efficiency numbers are so high, however I made the cam choice based on those numbers. On the desk top dyno I kept tweaking the cam numbers until I reached the best numbers for the bore, stroke, compression, and heads we were using. I would say everything is working real well together. We are normally aspirated, Demon 825 carb and race mufflers. Kyle 

[mauve66]

did they give you a graph also?? to me the graph shows peaks and dips (flat spots) better for telling if you've got steady power or peaky power and to tell if the torque falls off too soon for the HP to take over, again, just easier for me to read than reading a column of numbers

[firefighter3931]

Kyle, those are impressive numbers for that combo. The wide lobed 114* cam and low (pump gas) compression are why it didn't make over 600 ftlbs. Trust me, you won't be able to feel the difference between 590 and 600 ftlbs in the car....or on the time slip. 

The torque curve is nice and flat....power everywhere which is what you want for a street/strip build. 



Ron

[Beer]

Question on the AFR, if a WOT run it looks a bit lean to me? Shouldn't it be high 12-13's? Or is low 14's the target WOT AFR for these engines?

[firefighter3931]

Question on the AFR, if a WOT run it looks a bit lean to me? Shouldn't it be high 12-13's? Or is low 14's the target WOT AFR for these engines?

I agree Jim, it does look a little lean up top.  Personally, i'd be happier with high 12's -low 13's on the A/F's but on the dyno you can get away with a slightly leaner mixture and still be safe. In the car is a different story.



Ron

[redmist]

IdahoGrumpy, if you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost to dyno the engine? I have a 383 build going togeather and live in Boise....  I would love to dyno the engine before install and would make the silly short trip to do so!

Will they break the motor in on the dyno as well?

Thanks!

[Purple440]

Kyle what cam is that with 114lsa giving those numbers?  Is that a custom grind that you designed?

[idahogrumpy]

       Sorry people been busy and still have not got all of my information together. Again my memory is not treating me well. We had so many different plans and ideas about this motor that my facts got a little screwy. This engine was put together over several months and the bulk of the parts were ordered by the engines owner about a year ago. So here is one more little piece to our build. The cam card. Yes this was a custom grind. The cam specs were tweaked by me on an engine Dyno simulator. This is a solid lifter cam. The engine Idled very nicely at about 850 rpm. 112 lobe centers not 114 as stated earlier.

I have not spent any more time with the engine tune as it is going to be pulled from the car it is in now and put into the owners 73 Scamp over the next few weeks. 

[Purple440]

ah Engle.  Nice!  I want one of their cams so bad, but I'd have to rip out my current cam, then worry about the zinc in the oil, ect.  My "slow ramp" cam probably lets me get away with lesser oil.

Cheers,
- Doug

[mopowers]

Whats the rest of the combo?

[Dans 68]

Whats the rest of the combo?

Thought I'd this up as I would really like to know. 

Dan

[1Bad70Charger]

What are we in John Force's garage here and mums the word!      

What gives, we want more details on this build, as making 600+ Hp and almost 600 torque on a 470 pump gas engine is extremely impressive and some of us would like to achieve this also!  

[1Bad70Charger]

Looking to build the same type of engine and would LOVE to get 600 horsies out of a 470 engine.

Who can  confirm what Heads this build was running, ported and polished or out of the box and what compression ratio?

Thanks in advance! 

[tan top]

nice street motor 

[69charger440]

Looking to build the same type of engine and would LOVE to get 600 horsies out of a 470 engine.

Who can  confirm what Heads this build was running, ported and polished or out of the box and what compression ratio?

Thanks in advance! 

Alright folks! My Father built this engine, so I will get on his butt. I am pretty sure they use indy heads! I will give him a call now.

[1Bad70Charger]

nice street motor 

I agree and I want to duplicate this build! 

What is the standard bore on a 400 ci low deck 470/471 build as it seems like a great way of making some big power on a budget, utilizing one's 440 crank.

Also, what can I expect to pay for a bare good condition 400 block and what year blocks are the best?

Thanks in advance. 

[1Bad70Charger]

Looking to build the same type of engine and would LOVE to get 600 horsies out of a 470 engine.

Who can  confirm what Heads this build was running, ported and polished or out of the box and what compression ratio?

Thanks in advance! 

Alright folks! My Father built this engine, so I will get on his butt. I am pretty sure they use indy heads! I will give him a call now.

That would make sense making this type of SERIOUS power, please get us specifics on the exact heads, compression ratio, etc. and thank you! 

[69charger440]

Looking to build the same type of engine and would LOVE to get 600 horsies out of a 470 engine.

Who can  confirm what Heads this build was running, ported and polished or out of the box and what compression ratio?

Thanks in advance! 

Alright folks! My Father built this engine, so I will get on his butt. I am pretty sure they use indy heads! I will give him a call now.

That would make sense making this type of SERIOUS power, please get us specifics on the exact heads, compression ratio, etc. and thank you! 

Well I spoke with Scott (the owner), he said it was Indy EZ heads (No Porting), high rise Indy Intake, Indy Rockers, 870 Race Demon CARB, 440 source stroker kit, 440 source girdle. The piston where installed even with the deck. Thus creating .040 quench (Close to it). Scott told me to let you guys know to watch your bearing on the 400 stroker builds, make sure you radius them for clearances.  I am sure IdahoGrumpyBear will post later!!

[1Bad70Charger]

Looking to build the same type of engine and would LOVE to get 600 horsies out of a 470 engine.

Who can  confirm what Heads this build was running, ported and polished or out of the box and what compression ratio?

Thanks in advance! 

Alright folks! My Father built this engine, so I will get on his butt. I am pretty sure they use indy heads! I will give him a call now.

That would make sense making this type of SERIOUS power, please get us specifics on the exact heads, compression ratio, etc. and thank you! 

Well I spoke with Scott (the owner), he said it was Indy EZ heads (No Porting), high rise Indy Intake, Indy Rockers, 870 Race Demon CARB, 440 source stroker kit, 440 source girdle. The piston where installed even with the deck. Thus creating .040 quench (Close to it). Scott told me to let you guys know to watch your bearing on the 400 stroker builds, make sure you radius them for clearances.  I am sure IdahoGrumpyBear will post later!!

Thank you for this info bro definitely a kick azz 470 engine! 

[idahogrumpy]

     So very sorry for not staying with this. The compression is right at 10.48 according to Scott (owner). The block had been square decked for zero deck piston installation. The block was bored .030 over as I recall. A torque plate was used for final hone. The rings were file fit to each cylinder. The rotating assembly was balanced. The block was align honed because of the use of main bearing studs. The crank and rods were sent to the machine shop to be checked. The 440 Source crank was not dead on for critical dimensions, there were issues with bearing clearance's that could have been addressed. For our intentions the crank would work as is, so we used it. The rods checked out fine. We used fully grooved main bearings.  As mentioned in many other areas of this forum the chamfer on the bearings had to be extensively modified to give us proper rod and main bearing side  clearance. Very careful assembly was required. The bottom end had been disassembled and assembled at least three times before everything was right. The stud girdle is a bit of a challenge as well. We had rear main seal retainer issues. Had to use a Dremel to make clearance for the rear main stud nuts. I drilled and tapped the block for the 1/2 Hemi pick up tube. Moroso 8 qt pan.
       This was not a cheap engine to build. The machine work was around $1000.00, the engine kit was $1900.00, and the Indy top end was some where around 4000.00. Could it have been done cheaper? Yes I think so. But what we have here is a reasonably mild engine with potential for more that should last for quite a while.

Why did we choose the 470? Low block strength, better piston skirt length for street longevity.

Why did we pick the Indy heads? Better out of the box flow than Eddies without port work. Cost of ported Eddies pushed close to the cost of the Indy's. The Indy package included assembled heads, intake, valley cover, valve covers, head bolts, and push rods built for our required length.
   
  I'm sure there is many items I forgot, but that is the build in a nut shell. This is not the way I wanted to document this build, but time and other life problems kind of got in the way.

  Since this engine has been together it has not run more than about 5 miles. This engine went into An A body with a 518 overdrive behind it. The transmission has been kind if a problem due to some mistakes by the owner of the car and has been in & out twice now, which is no small feat for this A body. Very labor intensive.

  The intake manifold and spacer combination require the use of a very large hood scoop.

   I must give 440 Source credit for putting this kit together for Mopar people everywhere. This engine is a very potent and I hope long lasting combination that anybody can build with some attention to detail. It was a huge learning process for me. I've been kind of the junk yard dog kind of hotrod builder, never had anything like this to work with. This Baby Runs!!!      Grumpy 
         

[1Bad70Charger]

Great Feedback Grumpy, thank you, and fantastic results on this 470 engine you built!  

I may be picking your mind a bit in the future about duplicating this set-up!