Is anyone reproducing the broadcast sheets?

[Aero426]

Temptation and time make reproduction items turn original.

It doesn't matter what kind of collectible it is; the above statement is true.    The creator may have no intent to deceive, but it is what happens three owners and 15 years down the line where things can get murky.

   

[pettybird]

I'm going to do a repro broadcast sheet for my 'Bird, and include it with the car at Barrett Jackson.  If you ask me if its a repro - I'll say "yes" - and if you don't ask, I presume its not important for you when valuing my car.   Bottomline, if you don't like my level of detail on my restoration (which included restoring the paperwork - just like I did the parts), don't bid on my car.

I want a broadcast sheet, because I am including that level of detail in my restoration, it makes me happy to have one, and that's all the justification needed.   

These are conflicting statements.  You are attempting to forge a document to increase the value of your car at an auction FILLED with unsophisticated buyers.  You later say it's for your own happiness...bullshit.  Please take your fraud elsewhere.  Being "coy" about telling people that you faked your car's documentation?  Yes, you are the problem.  Pretending that a FORGED broadcast sheet is the same as a reproduction voltage regulator is both stupid and ignorant.  

You don't think a broadcast sheet increases the value of a car?  As someone who SELLS CLASSIC CARS PROFESSIONALLY I can tell you it's EASILY a $5000 bump.  And you have a good car--or so you claim.  Corporation Blue over white?  Yeah, that's not worth more than a yellow/black bench car.  Of course, AJ Backeast can make you a new tag, and you're so clever with Photoshop...that's a $25,000 bump, period.  So what that you SAY you have a J number over 99500?  Hell--you can't even get the story right here on this site.  That's pretty damn easy to fake, too--there are no ironclad records for the 999 cars!  

One of two things is going to happen at B-J with your car.  Scenario 1 is that two drunk guys have to have your "fully documented" car and bid each other silly.  Scenario 2 is that the experts see right through your fraud, announce your fraud, and kill the car.  Have fun buying it back and paying both premiums to avoid losing your ass.  

Stop with the reproduction/original crap, too.  Trunk floor replaced OK.  "All original sheetmetal" when a car's had the AMD catalog thrown at it FRAUD.  Marrying a blond who was born a brunette OK.  Lola from the Kinks song of the same name--FRAUD.  "Reproduction" paperwork with disclosure OK, but just barely.  "If you ask me if its a repro - I'll say "yes" - and if you don't ask, I presume its not important for you when valuing my car."  IS TOTAL, OUTRIGHT FRAUD, END OF STORY.  That isn't an opinion--you're trolling for someone who wants a car with its sheet and you are hoping to profit from it.  FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD.

You will not find one person on this site who agrees with you.  Either drop the subject or find another website where the morals are a lot lower.

[hemigeno]

 


A couple months ago, I had a very sincere offer made to me to create a reproduction Broadcast Sheet for my R/T (which unfortunately does not currently have an original sheet).  The offer was made by a gentleman who is capable of producing such an item, and also knows for sure that I would not intentionally mis-represent any reproduction sheet as original - or use the cop-out excuse of "they didn't ask".  My car's important options are already pretty much defined by the fender tag, so it's not likely that its value would perceptably change by anything "added" to a broadcast sheet that shouldn't already be there, but that's not the point.  With the reference material floating around here and with a few other examples of "real" HemiCharger broadcast sheets, I could generate accurate information for nearly every category (except the Sequence Number and a few other inconsequential categories).

Simply because I am not immortal and will someday not be the owner of this car, I declined that offer.  Who knows what would happen down the line if a subsequent owner either doesn't remember or chooses to forget that I had a very accurate and authentic-appearing "reproduction" sheet created.

The OP's stated intentions, to me anyway, are contradictory and a moral quagmire.  Personally, I will choose the high road.

[Arnie Cunningham]

Greeting All,
This subject evokes more powerful opinions than the sale of real buildsheets.

Caveat Emptor is not much of a legal defense in this case and, I can only imagine, a very hollow way to approach life.
Willful Negligence and Intent to Defraud are very good grounds for prosecution, however.

Claiming an action to be "OK if you don't get caught." is a strange-to-me approach to life.  I have worked for, and with, people of this mindset but could never internalize it.  I am curious as to how one would come to think this way.  Is there really any satisfaction in "getting away with something"?

Creating a Build Sheet is not necessary for the restoration of a car - it will run just fine without one.  Don't poison the rest of your car with something unnecessary that draws your entire car into question.  If you want to reconstruct your sheet for technical reasons as a composite of other known sheets, go ahead.  Just leave it in MSWord format as a list of probable components that originally made up your car.  Skip the conversion of it to Chrysler BuildSheet Format.

Brennan

[Old Moparz]

This is an interesting thread for a few reasons, one of which, is how the broadcast sheet has changed it's status over the years. It's gone from originally being just an order sheet that went down the assembly line with the car, to something that is almost a document. I see it as both since it's now one of several ways to help decode a vehicle to see how it was when it was new, or what rare combination of parts it has. I'd love to know what the original color of my Charger was, or if my Road Runner had a bench seat, but I don't know. Is it important? Not to me, I'm just curious because it's part of the past. I also don't care because I'd make the Charger whatever color I liked, & I have brand new bucket seats with an arm rest buddy seat for the Road Runner.

The problem is when somebody decides that they have to have something more unique than the other person, or have something that is more valuable than anyone else. It's not limited to cars either, it's everywhere. That's why counterfeit designer crap exists, or why someone buys a gift in K-Mart & gives it in a Macy's bag. Yes, there are sincere people "restoring" something as a challenge for no financial gains, but there are many who aren't & plan to take advantage for profit. It sucks when people step on others to get what they want, but I guess that happens when you hold monetary or status symbols higher than people.

Fraud exists & it isn't going away, so this is why there are laws. (Not all laws work, but that's another argument....lol) If all the old cars, including a Hemi, E-Body ragtop, were only worth a few thousand bucks nobody would care if a broadcast sheet was original, repro, or faked with extra options. Unfortunately, some of these cars are worth as much as the average home now, or more than several neighborhoods in Detroit, so there is a good reason to up the value of them.

I think the sheets are kind of cool if they survived, like a souvenir to hang onto, but I never cared whether my cars had them or not. I would modify whatever car I got my hands on to make it the way I want. So if the sheet said no power steering, bench seat, & dung colored, Tawney Gold paint, guess what? It's getting power steering, modern bucket seats, & lime green paint. I respect all cars to whatever level of restoration they get, but I'm into it for my own reasons.

I won't lie, I like unique cars & other things, but they usually aren't anything that impresses me to where I have to have it. Of the 5 old Mopars that I currently own, only three of them had sheets, & one isn't even for my car, it's for a 1968 Coronet RT convertible. I've also never bothered to decode them, & one I've owned since 1984, my Satellite convertible. Why haven't I? It's just a piece of paper that survived under the back seat & it's a souvenir because I got to it before any damn rodent did. 

[rainbow4jd]

I'm going to do a repro broadcast sheet for my 'Bird, and include it with the car at Barrett Jackson.  If you ask me if its a repro - I'll say "yes" - and if you don't ask, I presume its not important for you when valuing my car.   Bottomline, if you don't like my level of detail on my restoration (which included restoring the paperwork - just like I did the parts), don't bid on my car.

I want a broadcast sheet, because I am including that level of detail in my restoration, it makes me happy to have one, and that's all the justification needed.   

These are conflicting statements.  You are attempting to forge a document to increase the value of your car at an auction FILLED with unsophisticated buyers.  You later say it's for your own happiness...bullshit.  Please take your fraud elsewhere.  Being "coy" about telling people that you faked your car's documentation?  Yes, you are the problem.  Pretending that a FORGED broadcast sheet is the same as a reproduction voltage regulator is both stupid and ignorant.  

You don't think a broadcast sheet increases the value of a car?  As someone who SELLS CLASSIC CARS PROFESSIONALLY I can tell you it's EASILY a $5000 bump.  And you have a good car--or so you claim.  Corporation Blue over white?  Yeah, that's not worth more than a yellow/black bench car.  Of course, AJ Backeast can make you a new tag, and you're so clever with Photoshop...that's a $25,000 bump, period.  So what that you SAY you have a J number over 99500?  Hell--you can't even get the story right here on this site.  That's pretty damn easy to fake, too--there are no ironclad records for the 999 cars!  

One of two things is going to happen at B-J with your car.  Scenario 1 is that two drunk guys have to have your "fully documented" car and bid each other silly.  Scenario 2 is that the experts see right through your fraud, announce your fraud, and kill the car.  Have fun buying it back and paying both premiums to avoid losing your ass.  

Stop with the reproduction/original crap, too.  Trunk floor replaced OK.  "All original sheetmetal" when a car's had the AMD catalog thrown at it FRAUD.  Marrying a blond who was born a brunette OK.  Lola from the Kinks song of the same name--FRAUD.  "Reproduction" paperwork with disclosure OK, but just barely.  "If you ask me if its a repro - I'll say "yes" - and if you don't ask, I presume its not important for you when valuing my car."  IS TOTAL, OUTRIGHT FRAUD, END OF STORY.  That isn't an opinion--you're trolling for someone who wants a car with its sheet and you are hoping to profit from it.  FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD.

You will not find one person on this site who agrees with you.  Either drop the subject or find another website where the morals are a lot lower.

Agreement on opinions aren't necessary.

When I get to Barrett Jackson, in roughly 2013 with a concours level restoration, I'm also going to have the original owner standing beside me, with photos from when he owned it.  Plus, I've owned my Bird since 1983 and all the numbers match and its lineage is clear.  So I'm not worried about authentication one bit.  And I'm not asking for your opinion or approval, or even a bid on my car, regardless of what I decide to do with a broadcast sheet reproduction.

What amazes me, however, (in being new to this site and since I'm finally getting around to restoring my Bird) is the fervor over a non-essential document and the emotional attachment to it.  If this is a site for ONE opinion on something, I'll tell you to ban now me for my differing opinion - or persuade me that my opinion's wrong with some reasoned logic, instead of name calling.   But if I am not the least concerned about your opinion of me or my car.

I would prefer to deal with you on a professional basis and am looking forward to getting re-involved with campaigning my car to different shows and re-engaging some of the old time folks I met way back at the Mopar Nationals in Indy in 1984 or 1985 as I recall (my first show).   But I don't live and die by my Superbird.  I'm a collector, not a hobbyist.

As I've mentioned previously, I've got about 25% of my original broadcast sheet and enough PROOF to back up my claim of originality.   My car will be ORIGINAL (but restored) regardless of whether I have a broadcast sheet or not -- or do you intend to accuse me of restamping the engine and tranny, and forging 20 year old car titles, too - since you're being pretty free handed with your accusations of fraud?

And as I AM IN THE CAR BUSINESS for 26 years, I can tell you that every "hobbyist" gets their panties in a wad over their own car, over how much its worth and "why", and how it compares to someone elses.    And everyone tells their own "story" of their car with what ever paraphenalia they deem important (such as appeared in Mopar Action April 2006 page 14). 

But here's the scoop - what its worth is always based on what a buyer is willing to pay.   In Kentucky, Arab shieks pay 6 million dollars for a yearling - a horse that may never run.   To me that is a freakin' idiot.  But if one wants to buy my car for 6 million dollars - I'll happily take their money.   In summary, the ONLY opinion that counts (as to what something is worth) is when someone brings dollars to the table.   

Everything I do will be legal and above board (because my dealer license requires it) - but on matters of opinion - mine is the only one that counts.

And finally, I would love to have two drunk guys get in a bidding war for my car - isn't that what we all dream of?  'Cause one thing I know from my own car experience is.... collectors will pay what a car is worth (because they buy it for its future value) and hobbyists don't want to pay for anything.

PS I don't want to get into a flame war with you, because I appreciate your knowledge, enthusiasm, and even your opinions -  but if I have to agree with everything you say for us to have an intelligent conversation - I already have a wife, I don't need another.

Fair enough?

[Ghoste]

Then why not a disclaimer posted with the broadcast sheet explaining that it's a reproduction?

[Alaskan_TA]

If it bugs you so much, sell the car as is & buy one with an original sheet, this is not rocket science folks. 

[Ghoste]

No, it isn't rocket science.  It's business.

[rainbow4jd]

Greeting All,
This subject evokes more powerful opinions than the sale of real buildsheets.

Caveat Emptor is not much of a legal defense in this case and, I can only imagine, a very hollow way to approach life.
Willful Negligence and Intent to Defraud are very good grounds for prosecution, however.

Claiming an action to be "OK if you don't get caught." is a strange-to-me approach to life.  I have worked for, and with, people of this mindset but could never internalize it.  I am curious as to how one would come to think this way.  Is there really any satisfaction in "getting away with something"?

Creating a Build Sheet is not necessary for the restoration of a car - it will run just fine without one.  Don't poison the rest of your car with something unnecessary that draws your entire car into question.  If you want to reconstruct your sheet for technical reasons as a composite of other known sheets, go ahead.  Just leave it in MSWord format as a list of probable components that originally made up your car.  Skip the conversion of it to Chrysler BuildSheet Format.

Brennan

Thanks Brennan.

My points (made in rebuttal to some of the fervor my original post generated) may or may not indicate my actual actions.   They just make good fun in challenging the perceptions of "what IS considered a fake versus a reproduction".  As I've mentioned - to me there are only two classes of cars 1) unrestored original and 2) restored.  When we are talking about restorations - as is the case - its curious to see the differing opinions on what is considered "restoration accepted versus restoration fake".   

While I didn't come on here to make friends, NOR to make enemies.  I also don't believe in the "free ride" - if someone offers an opinion, they've got to back it up.   And that still doesn't mean I am obligated to agree with them.   And (which is why I vigoruously debate the issue).... would someone on a matter of opinion, attempt to tell me what is "right"?  I just keep reminding them that its an "opinion" with no moral "right or wrong" and they just get more ticked off, because its like you've questioned their faith!   I can't help it - I play a good "gadfly".

However, I've been in the car business for 26 years and know that the only opinions in a transaction that count, are those of the buyer and seller.   Certainly there are legal standards which must be met - and in doing so I would not presume to EVER mis-represent my restoration in any regard - and there are some practical and accepted "norms" of disclosure such as detailing for the buyer the restoration.  In fact, I'm taking photos like crazy to clearly document my restoration.  Thus, I would never ACTUALLY represent a reproduction broadcast sheet to be an "original" but always as a facsimile or reproduction.   And my success in the car business has been based on my personal integrity, so while I may point out "Caveat Emptor", I'm far more likely to go above and beyond to accurately represent the cars I sell.

That being said, in my business, every customer has the opportunity to test drive and inspect the car to their satisfaction.  There are legal disclosures, which apply to collector sales as well, and there are questions that the buyer is expected to ask from the position of Caveat Emptor - IF those questions are important to them.   For example, someone might want to know IF the lights in my dash are "original" - but in my normal course of disclosure I never volunteer that I changed the bulbs to something brighter so I could see them better at night, because I don't consider it a relevant point of discussion - or that my rubber trunk seal is a reproduction.  So, did I commit "fraud" by not volunteering that information or was that a case of Caveat Emptor?  I hope my point is made.

So why do I want a repro-broadcast sheet?  The car business is about telling stories, those sales aids which catch a person's attention (such as a balloon tied to an antenna) are only to help a salesperson engage a customer to tell the story.  I want to engage a person's attention to my car.   They see my car from a distance with a lot of stuff around it, they walk over and SURE see that its a "fake" broadcast sheet upon closer inspection - but it gives me a chance to talk to them about my car.    Even if I have NO INTENT to sell my car....  when I go to car shows, isn't half the fun talking to folks?  Thus, my paraphenlia - to include my clearly repro-broadcast sheet - is part of the fun.

In summary, I have a Superbird that has a lot of my blood, sweat, and tears in it - and wife and kids who care less.  I'm simply looking to cash in before my retirement, since no one enjoys it but me.  I'm blessed to finally have the funds to do a proper restoration of which I expect to recover my investment.  Why would someone be upset with me, IF I do all that's available to present my car in the best possible way?  Even if its something they wouldn't do.  Afterall, we all benefit from higher sales prices?

In any event, I feel like I know you from your site, and value your opinions and would hope someday to show you my Bird with pride and its clearly reproduced, clearly fake, broadcast sheet.   Thus, I reply with full disclosure and candor (just as I would in presenting my car to you).

[rainbow4jd]

This is an interesting thread for a few reasons, one of which, is how the broadcast sheet has changed it's status over the years. It's gone from originally being just an order sheet that went down the assembly line with the car, to something that is almost a document. I see it as both since it's now one of several ways to help decode a vehicle to see how it was when it was new, or what rare combination of parts it has. I'd love to know what the original color of my Charger was, or if my Road Runner had a bench seat, but I don't know. Is it important? Not to me, I'm just curious because it's part of the past. I also don't care because I'd make the Charger whatever color I liked, & I have brand new bucket seats with an arm rest buddy seat for the Road Runner.

The problem is when somebody decides that they have to have something more unique than the other person, or have something that is more valuable than anyone else. It's not limited to cars either, it's everywhere. That's why counterfeit designer crap exists, or why someone buys a gift in K-Mart & gives it in a Macy's bag. Yes, there are sincere people "restoring" something as a challenge for no financial gains, but there are many who aren't & plan to take advantage for profit. It sucks when people step on others to get what they want, but I guess that happens when you hold monetary or status symbols higher than people.

Fraud exists & it isn't going away, so this is why there are laws. (Not all laws work, but that's another argument....lol) If all the old cars, including a Hemi, E-Body ragtop, were only worth a few thousand bucks nobody would care if a broadcast sheet was original, repro, or faked with extra options. Unfortunately, some of these cars are worth as much as the average home now, or more than several neighborhoods in Detroit, so there is a good reason to up the value of them.

I think the sheets are kind of cool if they survived, like a souvenir to hang onto, but I never cared whether my cars had them or not. I would modify whatever car I got my hands on to make it the way I want. So if the sheet said no power steering, bench seat, & dung colored, Tawney Gold paint, guess what? It's getting power steering, modern bucket seats, & lime green paint. I respect all cars to whatever level of restoration they get, but I'm into it for my own reasons.

I won't lie, I like unique cars & other things, but they usually aren't anything that impresses me to where I have to have it. Of the 5 old Mopars that I currently own, only three of them had sheets, & one isn't even for my car, it's for a 1968 Coronet RT convertible. I've also never bothered to decode them, & one I've owned since 1984, my Satellite convertible. Why haven't I? It's just a piece of paper that survived under the back seat & it's a souvenir because I got to it before any damn rodent did. 

Very articulate post, and less inflammatory than my own comments (of which I intentionally pushed the issue because I like telling the Emperor he has no clothes).   My own opinion is kind of halfway between your and the "original is god" crowd - I'm kind of IF its original drive train, go with original restoration as best you can, but if its a non-matching numbers car feel free to personalize.

Ultimately, I think it a bit odd that a piece of paper has gained mythical status, when like yourself, I understand what it actually was used for and how inconsequential the value was, and the pure luck of the draw that they even remain.  I also know in the dozen of so Mopars I've bought and sold, I never valued its presence (or lack there of) in the transaction.

What I find intriguing is that one item - like a trunk floor can be considered "acceptable" in reproduction and another item considered "fraud".  It's a really interesting pyschological dymanic.  And then its interesting to see where the point of division exists in each person.

If nothing else, its been an engaging intellectual topic.

[rainbow4jd]

Then why not a disclaimer posted with the broadcast sheet explaining that it's a reproduction?

Makes sense to me - since that's what I'll do when I tell folks about my reproduction trunk floor.

[Ghoste]

And yet earlier you indicated you would only inform them if asked.  As for dismissing hobbyists over collectors, I too am in the collector car business and if you are as experienced as you claim then you damned well that many collectors can prove to be very poor judges of a car's real world value.  By the same token many "hobbyists" are by far the most knowledgable about the cars they love.
The comaprison between the trunk floor and the broadcast sheet is a good one.  In your case their is really only one reason to replace the trunk floor, it will increase the value of the car.  If you are a dealer and you only plan to flip the car, why go through the hassle and expense of the restoration unless it pays off on the other end.  You know very well (again if you are the dealer you say you are) that paperwork with this car will accomplish the same goal.  You may very well have purchased all of your cars without caring about paperwork but I sincerely doubt that you are naive enough to believe that displaying a broadcast sheet beside the car will not affect the auction in any way.  True enough, your dealer license will not permit you to publicly declare the broadcast sheet as the original one but the "don't ask, won't tell" policy you advocated earlier makes all of your arguments ring hollow in my opinion. 

[Mopurr]

What I find intriguing is that one item - like a trunk floor can be considered "acceptable" in reproduction and another item considered "fraud". 

You might want to get a little less hard headed here and realize there is a lot of difference between replacing a metal area of your car and a piece of paper work that goes with your car that states  most of the detail of what the car was originally built at the factory with......you can change things on a piece of paper......you have stated that you are not planning to make any changes to what is correct to your car but it still comes down to your build sheet would still be reproduced and even if you state that when you sell the car as has been mentioned several times before.......no matter your intentions of honesty......WHEN YOU GET 2 OR 3 BUYERS DOWN THE ROAD FROM YOU THAT SHEET STARTS BECOMING "THE BUILD SHEET FROM THE FACTORY" AND THEN IF BECOMES FRAUD.....just because you wanted to have a build sheet with your car when you sold it. 

If you are so obsessed with having a reproduced broadcast sheet be willing to watermark it as a reproduction and remember it does nothing to increase the value of your car.....if you are truly going to admit it is reproduced.

So I think it is time to just go your way and let this die down because I really almost think that you almost come across as a troll........if you are really here to discuss your car and learn info then start another post and do that and be welcome but quit stirring a issue that has quite plainly been answered to you that a reproduced sheet is WRONG

And for your information this is a Womans opinion. Since you stated you don't need another "wife".....when the guys answered you and you didn't listen to them... I would somehow doubt that you ever listen to her

[maxwellwedge]

I guess since it is no big deal do you want me to let Craig Jackson know for the heck of it? That's ok with you right?

[moparstuart]

I guess since it is no big deal do you want me to let Craig Jackson know for the heck of it? That's ok with you right?

   great idea

[Old Moparz]

Very articulate post, and less inflammatory than my own comments (of which I intentionally pushed the issue because I like telling the Emperor he has no clothes).   My own opinion is kind of halfway between your and the "original is god" crowd - I'm kind of IF its original drive train, go with original restoration as best you can, but if its a non-matching numbers car feel free to personalize.

Ultimately, I think it a bit odd that a piece of paper has gained mythical status, when like yourself, I understand what it actually was used for and how inconsequential the value was, and the pure luck of the draw that they even remain.  I also know in the dozen of so Mopars I've bought and sold, I never valued its presence (or lack there of) in the transaction.

What I find intriguing is that one item - like a trunk floor can be considered "acceptable" in reproduction and another item considered "fraud".  It's a really interesting pyschological dymanic.  And then its interesting to see where the point of division exists in each person.

If nothing else, its been an engaging intellectual topic.

People have their own view on sheets & I am not trying to badger anyone into changing their minds, but I would like to see people not do things that could deceive others. The "buyer beware" term is important, but not something I practice if I am selling something. When I sold my '71 Barracuda I insisted that even with close to 100 photos, I wanted the buyer to see it in person before leaving a deposit. There was no way I wanted to get into a debate on the definition of "vehicle condition" with anyone.

While I do understand what the original purpose of the sheet was for, the fact is, it has become one of only a few ways that an old Chrysler can be documented now. (The infamous Chrysler production file storage fire that destroyed old info comes to mind.) For me it isn't a big deal since I would be content with stuffing a Hemi in a slant 6 car, but I know that others want an original in a certain configuration. After about 40 or so years it's impossible to be sure if the vehicle was still with it's original set up.

The VIN is the most important part, but after that there are only a few ways to know for sure. One that helps identify an original combination is the sheet. It's not an issue for ownership since it has nothing to do with DMV, but it is a contributing factor to a sale for some people. To think that it can bring 1000's of dollars more is almost insane, but that's reality. I eat, sleep, & breathe these cars & love them, but I will never agree that they are worth as much as some sell for. To me the dollar value should be no more than the sum of their parts & refinishing. And no, I am not debating what a restoration should cost.

Broadcast sheets are "back up" information. Compare it to owning an old house in the historic district of a city. There might have been a famous person who lived in the neighborhood of the old house & had been inside it a 100 times for parties, but since they didn't own it & their name was never on the deed, it doesn't mean a thing to the value when you try to sell it. Now if you had an old newspaper with a front page photo of the famous person sitting on the sofa in the living room with the same window behind him that a potential buyer can stand in front of & look through, now what happens to the value of the house?

I see the broadcast sheet the same way as the newspaper photo & would hope it wasn't a fake reprint that ends up deceiving someone.

[68X426]

I just got back from a week at Hot August Nights. I knew this was going to be a fun topic and now I can toss in my observations and my two cents.

Here's what I saw at Reno:

• Every Camaro ever built has an original 427 L88
• Every Corvette ever built has an original 427 ZL1
• Every Mustang ever built was personally supervised by, and personally autographed by, Mr. Carroll Shelby

All with the original documents too, 40 plus years later. Every time.

Rainbow said it all early in the discussion: "Haven't you heard of "caveat emptor"?  Buyer beware?"

That's all the info I need from the man.

don't bid on my car.

I won't be bidding on your car.

[nascarxx29]

   Buildsheets what about 2 different fendertags for same 69 hemi 500 138602

[hemigeno]

 Buildsheets what about 2 different fendertags for same 69 hemi 500 138602

Two different VIN numbers, two different cars... 138602 does not belong in that eBay listing - which is actually for 210737.  I doubt that the intent to defraud is there, but I'm also not the one who wrote the ad either.  Purposeful failure to disclose (unless asked, of course   ) that a broadcast sheet is a reproduction hardly falls into the same category IMHO.

[69Charger500]

About 25 years ago I used to frequent Chrysler Historical and make copies of everything I could; Code Guides were my favorite because they helped me figure out how cars were ordered & built.  Even back then, the guy who managed the place told me they restricted access to prevent fraud.  Since I was a Chrysler employee, he apparently made an exception--but I limited my requests to only info on cars I owned at the time, and would drive the cars there when I went.

I spent most all my time looking for "cool" Mopars, and scrounging junkyards and Auto Trader weekly.  I learned very early on, there are a lot of unscrupulous people in the "hobby," as not too many folks knew the codes as well as I did at the time, but I found mis-represented cars (for sale) about 50-75% of the time.

I can only recall one who was not aware his car was a "fake."  It was a '68 Charger cloned into an R/T, and had a swapped (poorly) VIN on it.  After a bit of discussion, I offered to accompany the seller to the place where he bought it previously, and have a conversation with the owner--but that is a different story...

Anyway, after a few years, I got tired of all the shysters, and settled down with the cars I had found.  Several had good documentation, broadcast sheets, bill of sale, etc.  My 500 did not have a broadcast sheet, but I did eventually track down the bill of sale, and some other cool stuff.

So after lots of years, I still have to rely on what the original owner told me the car was built with (wheels, stripe, options not on fender tag, etc).

An original broadcast sheet is like an original, notarized birth certificate.  I may spend 20 minutes studying an original window sticker; won't waste my time on a reproduction--nothing to learn from it, correct or not.

To the OP:  I'd be ecstatic to have a 25% scrap of my broadcast sheet, and I'd display it proudly; right in the shoe box where I keep all my old car stuff!  Then, every couple of years when I'm rooting through there, I'd study it some more and maybe learn something new, or bring it out for a a fellow enthusiast to enjoy.

You see, if you're looking for a repro sheet for anyone else but yourself, or to display anywhere for others to see, then you really need to ask "Why?"

And yes, my 500 also has a '69 Service Block, with no stampings on the oil pan rail.  Guess what, it runs just fine without the stress-relief those numbers might provide.  And I am the sort who really think numbers-matching is pretty cool, but it is what it is, and it will stay that way.

So what's my point?  Not sure, I suppose, but maybe it's that a pretty knowledable car guy like myself who spent years studying Mopar muscle car history has run across lots of folks mis-representing cars (and parts) over the years, and I think it really hurt the hobby.  I saw incorrect VINs, re-stamped blocks, fake paperwork, duped buyers, etc, etc.  Nothing good every came of it, and repro broadcast sheets will be gasoline on the fire.

[rainbow4jd]

And yet earlier you indicated you would only inform them if asked.  As for dismissing hobbyists over collectors, I too am in the collector car business and if you are as experienced as you claim then you damned well that many collectors can prove to be very poor judges of a car's real world value.  By the same token many "hobbyists" are by far the most knowledgable about the cars they love.
The comaprison between the trunk floor and the broadcast sheet is a good one.  In your case their is really only one reason to replace the trunk floor, it will increase the value of the car.  If you are a dealer and you only plan to flip the car, why go through the hassle and expense of the restoration unless it pays off on the other end.  You know very well (again if you are the dealer you say you are) that paperwork with this car will accomplish the same goal.  You may very well have purchased all of your cars without caring about paperwork but I sincerely doubt that you are naive enough to believe that displaying a broadcast sheet beside the car will not affect the auction in any way.  True enough, your dealer license will not permit you to publicly declare the broadcast sheet as the original one but the "don't ask, won't tell" policy you advocated earlier makes all of your arguments ring hollow in my opinion. 

You are very correct about the knowledge level of hobbyists versus collectors; which is why collectors make better buyers, in my opinion.   

However, when you are selling a car - you put everything out there for inspection by the buyer.  It's not my responsibility to educate the buyer; the buyer is responsible for educating himself to ask the right questions!  My responsibility is to be proactively open and honest about my restoration, but only to the extent that it enables me to get the maximum value for my car.   i.e.  I present the features and benefits.  But, I don't tell him that it's a gas hog and runs best on premium gas and an every day road trip will cost him $80 in fuel!   That is the basics of "selling" any good or service: Basic Marketing 101.

Remember, I'm not representing originality; I am representing "restored to like original condition" with the core elements of original matching numbers powertrain and correctly matched options to the fender tag – including paint and interior.  (Although a lot of my vehicle is still original, like the seat covers, and dash pad, among other items)

Now I recognize my view of the broadcast sheet as "non-essential" and "just another part" is probably the crux of our debate on this thread.  Perhaps if I had my complete broadcast sheet I might feel differently (you know, broadcast sheet snobbery).

But I say it with due civility – the only opinion that counts is that of the person with cash in their hand.     IF they value an original broadcast sheet, they'll make me an offer; just like the person who doesn't value the broadcast sheet will make me an offer.  At that point, I'll say "yes" or "no" to whoever's higher.

So, I'm going to focus on my matching numbers, original owner verification, the fender tag, the color and seating, the low mileage, and the other features of my car.  I won't say a word about the broadcast sheet - unless the prospect brings it up (and, IF I've made or bought one, at that point I tell him it's a repro and show him my partial original).

I appreciate everyone's opinion, and it's been an interesting discussion – although I am sorry I asked the question..

[rainbow4jd]

I guess since it is no big deal do you want me to let Craig Jackson know for the heck of it? That's ok with you right?

Sure - full disclosure is fine by me.  My paperwork will include my partial original and my full reproduction.  I'm not hiding anything.

[nascarxx29]

If a particular car has these originality merits as #matching driveline door vin decal 1/4 vin and its own unique superbird vin .Along with the registrys that can back up a cars history and known prior wingcar ownership of that vin.And added bonus like dealer paperwork orig owner pictures history etc.Then I have no reservations with missing repaced.Fender tag or buildsheet.The buildsheet was only a order of assembly of components.If a car has these following merits.A copy buildsheet or missing buildsheet .Not going devalue or red flag it .You would though need to have buildsheet info to replace missing or rusted fender tag.Disclose or not to disclose the manafactured buildsheet would be up to its owner . As what I read on another post says it all in this hobby
Re: Whats with this hemi 500 on ebay?
Wow you guys are on top of this guy i fell sorry for him if he trying to run a scam « Reply #13 on: Today at 04:57:42 PM » Quote 

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Wow you guys are on top of this guy i fell sorry for him if he trying to run a scam !

[rainbow4jd]

About 25 years ago I used to frequent Chrysler Historical and make copies of everything I could; Code Guides were my favorite because they helped me figure out how cars were ordered & built.  Even back then, the guy who managed the place told me they restricted access to prevent fraud.  Since I was a Chrysler employee, he apparently made an exception--but I limited my requests to only info on cars I owned at the time, and would drive the cars there when I went.

I spent most all my time looking for "cool" Mopars, and scrounging junkyards and Auto Trader weekly.  I learned very early on, there are a lot of unscrupulous people in the "hobby," as not too many folks knew the codes as well as I did at the time, but I found mis-represented cars (for sale) about 50-75% of the time.

I can only recall one who was not aware his car was a "fake."  It was a '68 Charger cloned into an R/T, and had a swapped (poorly) VIN on it.  After a bit of discussion, I offered to accompany the seller to the place where he bought it previously, and have a conversation with the owner--but that is a different story...

Anyway, after a few years, I got tired of all the shysters, and settled down with the cars I had found.  Several had good documentation, broadcast sheets, bill of sale, etc.  My 500 did not have a broadcast sheet, but I did eventually track down the bill of sale, and some other cool stuff.

So after lots of years, I still have to rely on what the original owner told me the car was built with (wheels, stripe, options not on fender tag, etc).

An original broadcast sheet is like an original, notarized birth certificate.  I may spend 20 minutes studying an original window sticker; won't waste my time on a reproduction--nothing to learn from it, correct or not.

To the OP:  I'd be ecstatic to have a 25% scrap of my broadcast sheet, and I'd display it proudly; right in the shoe box where I keep all my old car stuff!  Then, every couple of years when I'm rooting through there, I'd study it some more and maybe learn something new, or bring it out for a a fellow enthusiast to enjoy.

You see, if you're looking for a repro sheet for anyone else but yourself, or to display anywhere for others to see, then you really need to ask "Why?"

And yes, my 500 also has a '69 Service Block, with no stampings on the oil pan rail.  Guess what, it runs just fine without the stress-relief those numbers might provide.  And I am the sort who really think numbers-matching is pretty cool, but it is what it is, and it will stay that way.

So what's my point?  Not sure, I suppose, but maybe it's that a pretty knowledable car guy like myself who spent years studying Mopar muscle car history has run across lots of folks mis-representing cars (and parts) over the years, and I think it really hurt the hobby.  I saw incorrect VINs, re-stamped blocks, fake paperwork, duped buyers, etc, etc.  Nothing good every came of it, and repro broadcast sheets will be gasoline on the fire.

I used to live and die by junk yarding every weekend, found a lot of cars with and without build sheets.  Bugs, sweat, and cars!

It seems to me that there is an element of "broadcast sheet snobbery" which is designed to create the impression that "with" is worth more than "without".   Which no doubt makes the "with" crowd feel emotionally better about their cars, but from my experience in the car business, there is no proven financial basis for that opinion.   

In the car business, every deal is unique, every story is unique.  My car is Corporate Blue – often referred to as Petty Blue.  IF I find the person who's "hot" for a Corporate Blue Superbird that day, then the broadcast sheet may or may NOT come into play – because its only his opinion that counts, no one else's.  And it depends on how many other Corporate Blue Superbirds the buyer has to choose from when I decide to sell my car.   It's just the law of supply and demand that ultimately will dictate the value.

Who knows it might sell for outrageous money if the right fool is ready to be parted from his money.  I sure hope so.

Because no two cars will ever have the SAME story, the broadcast sheet is of such little consequence as to be laughable IMO.  For example, a car with lower documented miles without a broadcast sheet will no doubt bring MORE money than a high mileage car with one – presuming all other factors equal.  A rare color car brings more than a plentiful color.  A hemi more than a 440.  Only if there were two identical cars, might the broadcast sheet come into play as a deciding factor.

My point is... the broadcast sheet is only one of MANY value elements, but you'd think it was the Holy Grail based on the feedback to my post.   

I'm also unconvinced that the potential of "option inflation" really makes a difference in price.  I think most buyers today realize that even those documents that are "deemed" original (with today's technology) are still suspect and will become even more suspect in the future.  Thus, the emphasis on "restored to like original" falls more so on the hard parts (such as matching numbers powertrain) that a transitory document like the broadcast sheet. 

Frankly, Galen's "Inspection" carries more weight today than a broadcast sheet (which is a whole 'nother story).   

Finally... I respect that some have opinions different than mine, but at the end of day – its' still an opinion.   And the "gadfly" in me enjoys reminding them it's just an "opinion", especially when they make presumptuous statements (IMO) such as "I have no problem today, but in 100 years your reproduction will be represented as original".   To which I reply, "100 years from now there will be so many reproduction broadcast sheets that yours will have no value, even as an original  It will become a non-issue"

Good day