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Author Topic: 451ci with 500+ torque from 3500 rpm to 7000+ rpm  (Read 10230 times)
heyoldguy
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« on: February 15, 2011, 02:40:18 AM »

Last one, I think I just about have it out of my system.

After we built our first 451 stroker in March, 2006, we began experimenting with a 500ci engine for awhile, learned a few lessons and in 2009 pulled out that old 451 shortblock. We added ARP studs to the main caps and tried a serious pump gas build. I just didn't like paying $8-$16/gal for race gas that the 500ci motor needed. I don't think you could call the result a street motor, even though we fed it 93 octane from the Stinker Station.

The build went like this.

   '74 model year 400 block, square decked, line bored, bored and then hand honed w/torque plate
   440 forged crank cut to 400 main size, counter weights cut .125" in radius
   Scat H-beam rods, .001" pin clearance.
   Ross forged piston with standard 6cc flycut. I should have cut them deeper because I milled the heads and lost
       enough piston to valve clearance I couldn't advance the cam as much as I wanted to. .0065" piston/cyl wall clearance.
   Total Seal gapless top ring set
   Erson Custom solid roller 276/280@.050", .816"/.816" w/1.6 rockers 110 LS, 108 IC
   Cloyes 9-keyway three bolt timing set
   Crower 68670S valve springs 220#@1.900"IH, 750#@.800"lift
   10 degree titanium retainers
   829-16 Comp solid rollers
   Harland Sharp rockers
   Ported Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, 349 cfm @ .800" lift, Edelbrock 1.81 exhaust valves, custom Manley 2.25 intakes.  
   Indy 400 Dominator Flanged Single Plane intake
   HVH four hole 2" spacer
   Pro-Systems XC 1140cfm Dominator
   Professional Products SFI Damper
   Mancini electric water pump, stock cast iron pump housing.
   Factory 4 qt oil pan, factory 3/8" pickup, factory windage tray, custom crank scraper, 75psi@3000rpm, 78psi@7400rpm
   Oh, and 11.7:1 compression.
  
Here is the nitty-gritty folks, this was the 17th dyno pull of the session and the only one from a 3000 rpm start. Everything else was from 4000 rpm.
 
     RPM        TQ         HP
     3100     416.7     246.0
     3200     433.4     264.1
     3300     471.1     296.0
     3400     489.0     316.6
     3500     502.9     335.1
     3600     523.7     359.0
     3700     523.5     368.8
     3800     517.9     374.7
     3900     516.9     383.8
     4000     518.9     395.2
     4100     532.7     415.9
     4200     539.5     431.4
     4300     543.1     444.7
     4400     548.0     459.1
     4500     555.2     475.7
     4600     562.3     492.5
     4700     568.3     508.6
     4800     572.0     522.8
     4900     574.2     535.7
     5000     584.1     556.1
     5100     584.1     567.2
     5200     584.2     578.4
     5300     573.0     578.2
     5400     582.0     598.4
     5500     570.6     597.5
     5600     586.4     625.3
     5700     589.9     640.2
     5800     595.3     657.4
     5900     602.4     676.9
     6000     598.8     684.1
     6100     603.5     700.9
     6200     600.2     708.5
     6300     594.5     713.1
     6400     584.6     712.4
     6500     589.9     730.1
     6600     581.9     731.3
     6700     579.8     739.7
     6800     588.0     761.3
     6900     582.7     765.5
     7000     575.2     766.6

We made 19 pulls over 1-1/4 days. The motor really liked to be pulled hard. Every time we went to 7100-7400 rpm at 300 rpm/sec acceleration rate, it made 770-775 HP. At 7400 rpm we still had 538 TQ and 758 HP. The first 17 pulls were at the 300 rpm/sec. Pulls 18 & 19 were at a lighter load of 600 rpm/sec and a mechanical water pump, belt driven off the crankshaft pulley. The motor made peak horsepower of 745.0 and 742.7 right at 7000 rpm on those pulls.

When we got home we did a leakdown test. The right bank was between 2-3% and the left bank 8-14% and I could hear air leak in the intake manifold.  I pulled that side down and touched up all the intake valves and seats and retested. Still leaking. Squirted soapy water into the ports and the leaks were between the hard seat and the aluminum head! I haven't repaired them yet. I quess when I do we'll have to come up with another project to put them on.

I think though, we already have enough projects for this summer. We have the 40x60 shop going up, a 493ci hyd flat tappet RPM head build, a 496ci 440-1 Indy w/solid roller project and a 500ci 906 head solid roller experiment. All to run on 91 octane, nobody wants to pay for race gas, go figure.
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68X426
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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 03:19:49 AM »

I feel the ground shaking as I read your description.  2thumbs

What vehicle has the motor found its way into?

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heyoldguy
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2011, 04:21:50 AM »

The motor sits in a storage room right now. I've yet to pull the Edelbrock heads off and repair the valve seat to head leaks. I think we'll reduce the power load now because it still has the stock main caps. We'll replace the RPM heads with some 295 cfm 452 heads, go to a small street roller, Edelbrock 383 Victor Intake and put it in either a '66 B-Body Station wagon or a '72 Plymouth Sport Satellite. I have a '69 Charger 383 4-speed and a '69 Charger 4-speed R/T but neither one is close to being ready for an engine.
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mhinders
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 11:35:49 AM »

Very interesting reading, I have a spare 400 block and a 440 steel crank, haven't decided what to build yet. What is roughly the cost of your configuration?
What´s the story with the heads, I guess they weren´t new???
Keep up the good work!
Martin
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Martin
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 01:55:26 PM »

Can you SCAN, and post the actual Dyno Sheet ?

1.7hp per inch is very good for the eddys !

Too bad about the valve seat leaks, any evidence of the valves are bouncing the seats, or ramping the Peaks ?
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 11:27:59 PM »

Yeah I can scan it, but I end up with a pdf file that is too big to post.

OK I guess we can get it to work. This pull was with a different set of headers from the other pulls. Notice the lousy torque down low compared to the other pulls.
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 01:24:13 PM »

Wasn't the right one, but I'm getting the hang of it. Oh yeah, this was pull #4.
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 01:30:07 PM »

Yes it does say 786.9 HP @ 7200 RPM. This was the third run of the session. I've always wondered if the left bank valve seats let go after this run. We tried a lot of jet and timing changes after this run (well 16 more pulls) but never got all the way back to the power we made on this pull.
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 01:33:01 PM »

I think this is the specific dyno sheet you asked for. This was the 17th pull and was an especially fun one for us. The dyno is a former Richard Childress dyno out of North Carolina used to test Nascar engines. Very few tests have been run on the dyno at the lower RPM ranges and never before down low on an engine in this power range. The operator (Aldon Miller, Performance Machine, Idaho Falls, ID) kept loading the engine and the throttle until he had the dyno holding the engine at full throttle at 3100rpm and then let her go. You could almost see the veins bulging in the motor's neck and forehead before the dyno started letting it accelerate.

On Comp Cams dyno this motor would hit about 4500 rpm and really change tone. It would sound like it was gonna break free of the dyno and just rev right outta sight. We pulled it to 7600 rpm on Comp Cams dyno and the HP was still trending up. The timing was backed out of it a little bit and the jetting was off some. At a 600 rpm/sec acceletation rate with a belt & pulley on the crankshaft driving the water pump it was only making 726 HP at Comp.
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 01:35:58 PM »

This was the second pull on the motor with the new cam and the dyno step headers.
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heyoldguy
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 10:37:22 PM »

Very interesting reading, I have a spare 400 block and a 440 steel crank, haven't decided what to build yet. What is roughly the cost of your configuration?
What´s the story with the heads, I guess they weren´t new???
Keep up the good work!
Martin
I guess we've got pretty close to $10,000 in it not counting my son's and my own labor. Another $1,500 in dyno time. 5 different roller cams, 4 intake manifolds, 4 sets of heads, five different carburetors, three roller rocker arm sets, 4 pushrod sets. With only one each of those counted in the 10 grand. Race horsepower on pump gas is still expensive!

New heads, but certainly not out of the box. My son did the porting, 84cfm@.100", 158@.200", 215@.300", 252@.400", 299@.500", 328@.600", 341@.700" & 349@.800"

The boys and I still have a lot to learn, but we are making some progress.
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mhinders
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 03:30:22 AM »

Very nice progress I would say, impressing...something for me to dream about so far.
Have you considered adding computer controlled fuel injection (incl. ignition etc.)? That might allow more control and easier tuning? There are many budget alternatives for the tinkerer, like MegaSquirt, VEMS etc.
This is a path I will follow once I have finished all the body work currently taking my time. I expect it to give me good idle and cruising behavior in spite of an advanced cam profile.
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Martin
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 05:03:07 AM »

280 @ .050 and over .800 Lift at the valve? must be a race only motor..I can see that valvetrain living on the street for about 3 months, as that motor will get hungry for valvetrain parts after that..
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 08:12:23 AM »

280 @ .050 and over .800 Lift at the valve? must be a race only motor..I can see that valvetrain living on the street for about 3 months, as that motor will get hungry for valvetrain parts after that..
Yeah, that was mentioned a couple times:
I don't think you could call the result a street motor, even though we fed it 93 octane from the Stinker Station.
Race horsepower on pump gas is still expensive!

Troy
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 10:02:59 AM »

Very interesting reading, I have a spare 400 block and a 440 steel crank, haven't decided what to build yet. What is roughly the cost of your configuration?
What´s the story with the heads, I guess they weren´t new???
Keep up the good work!
Martin
I guess we've got pretty close to $10,000 in it not counting my son's and my own labor. Another $1,500 in dyno time. 5 different roller cams, 4 intake manifolds, 4 sets of heads, five different carburetors, three roller rocker arm sets, 4 pushrod sets. With only one each of those counted in the 10 grand. Race horsepower on pump gas is still expensive!

New heads, but certainly not out of the box. My son did the porting, 84cfm@.100", 158@.200", 215@.300", 252@.400", 299@.500", 328@.600", 341@.700" & 349@.800"

The boys and I still have a lot to learn, but we are making some progress.

I don't think you've got much left to "LEARN" there Jim ?
Always GREAT to see what "Can" be done with these engines !

Just curious, as to the plan now on the seat repairs ?
You think it's a case of the Seat being a little too thin, after opening the Bowls/Seats for the 2.25 Manleys ?
Waay back,
I had a similar problem, in that, I had cut the throats/seat I.D. a little too steep using 2.25's, and I couldn not maintain seat concentricity @ temp. with a 53 degree seat I was trying.
Oh Well, time and "Radius's" have moved ahead on 45 seats, But I've never gone back and tried again.

GOOD LUCK moving forward and THANKS for sharing !
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2011, 03:36:49 PM »

Very interesting reading, I have a spare 400 block and a 440 steel crank, haven't decided what to build yet. What is roughly the cost of your configuration?
What´s the story with the heads, I guess they weren´t new???
Keep up the good work!
Martin
I guess we've got pretty close to $10,000 in it not counting my son's and my own labor. Another $1,500 in dyno time. 5 different roller cams, 4 intake manifolds, 4 sets of heads, five different carburetors, three roller rocker arm sets, 4 pushrod sets. With only one each of those counted in the 10 grand. Race horsepower on pump gas is still expensive!

New heads, but certainly not out of the box. My son did the porting, 84cfm@.100", 158@.200", 215@.300", 252@.400", 299@.500", 328@.600", 341@.700" & 349@.800"

The boys and I still have a lot to learn, but we are making some progress.
That is 1 impressive head porting job there, tell your son thumbs up on that work he's sure a real good asset to have around...
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 10:35:44 AM »

Hey Old Guy,

I'm assuming this is the 'other story'?

My Moparmate bought an engine from Tom Nelson in 2004.
It was built for the 2003 'Engine Masters' competition, pump gas street motor...
Unfortunately it was disqualified for headers infringements.
Tom and the financier were Heart-broken and sold it cheap to my Moparmate...

Here's what it was...
Ex Dick Landy, 1971 400 block at +.035
Re-stroked 440 crank to make 470 cubes.
Indy 572-13 heads.
Ross pistons and Eagle rods.
Flat tappet cam at 650 lift.
I think it made 720hp prior to disqualification!

The heads were too big for that combo so they got put on a 543 motor instead.
Think the short motor has Indy B1's now?
Up for sale at $9000, cheap in my book.
The original build-bill was over $30,000..... popcrn popcrn popcrn
Ten years on that's a $50,000 build now, probably???

Picture below is my mates 543 with new stealth'son top, now running 572/13 INDY heads...


* Nick's 543 007.JPG (71.36 KB, 640x480 - viewed 1480 times.)
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