Will a four core aluminum radiator work in my Superbird?

[hotrod98]

I'm going to make some changes to my bird to improve the cooling system. I plan to make at least part of the power tour in it next June. Champion makes a four core aluminum radiator that will bolt in and use my factory shroud but I'm worried about clearance between the radiator and the fan blade. I'm currently using a 223 seven blade non clutch style fan but I've been looking for a 224. In addition, Ill use an open style pusher fan on the front. Was also thinking about buying a better water pump. I cannot drive the car the way that it is now in this southern heat even though it has a new stock radiator along with a pusher fan.
Anyone have any experience with making these kinds of changes.

[A383Wing]

I would think you should not have a problem....what is the depth of the radiator you got now compared to the 4 core aluminum one?

[C5X DAYTONA]

I have not run a 4 core but I did install a 4 inch Griffin aluminum 2 row.   It keeps my race car on the 160f thermostat racing and in my street car it kept my clone Daytona cool in the hot summers with the a/c on.   I live in Palm Desert CA and it does hit 120f in the summer.   I never had a cooling problem at all with this set up.     I remember thinking, if the engine temp hit 200f which was straight up on the needle it was getting warm.  But that was only in traffic.   It never got over 180f with the a/c running on the highway in the summers.  A fan clutch would not fit.   In the race car I can use any fan spacer to get the correct fan to shroud combo I was after.    With ac I had to build a custom shroud because there was not enough fan, shroud, ac clutch and idler pulley room.   But with no ac,  You have lots of room.   Also,  I have always used a stainless 7 blade flex.   What is the core/tank thickness?   I also run a baffled water pump to control water pump impeller cavitation.   BTW,  I put just over 100,000 miles on that Daytona before I sold it.

[Dirtybird]

I had my 956 recored by a friend, and had him add an extra core. Looks stock- except from the front- which you can't see anyway- helped alot!

[moparstuart]

 that champion is what i have in mine 

[WINGIN IT]

I had my 956 recored by a friend, and had him add an extra core. Looks stock- except from the front- which you can't see anyway- helped alot!

This makes a lot of sense to me, if you want to keep it primarily stock appearing 

[swissmopar]

I'm going to make some changes to my bird to improve the cooling system. I plan to make at least part of the power tour in it next June. Champion makes a four core aluminum radiator that will bolt in and use my factory shroud but I'm worried about clearance between the radiator and the fan blade. I'm currently using a 223 seven blade non clutch style fan but I've been looking for a 224. In addition, Ill use an open style pusher fan on the front. Was also thinking about buying a better water pump. I cannot drive the car the way that it is now in this southern heat even though it has a new stock radiator along with a pusher fan.
Anyone have any experience with making these kinds of changes.

I had the same temperature issues even it never gets so hot here. I put in a 4 row Champion radiator 4 weeks ago no clearance problems at all, still using the factory shroud. Either the MP aluminum water pump, nor the pusher fans really helped. It was the 4 row aluminum radiator which made a huge difference. I can take a few pics next week. Temperture does not raise above 200 degrees anymore in any driving situation.

[dreamcatcher]

My SB runs hot too...in fact so hot I cant drive it..my radiator almost touches the fan with no spacer.It is wide but only 2 row.I want to install an aluminum radiator too but I cant find one to fit my car.Both outlets are on the same side on mine(passengers).I have never seen a radiator but it matches my engine outlets.

[BigBlockSam]

just changing to an aluminum radiator will make a big difference 

[loctite]

I have a 4 core alum radiator in mine and it would overheat big time. I had to make a custom fan shroud and I am running an after market fan that will push more air then stock. I Also poured in some snake oil( water wetter) and after all that it would still overheat. I finally removed the thermostat and left it out and it now stays cool. Around 180. I will put it back in when it cools down. It takes a little longer to warm up but so far so good. O by the way its a 392 hemi with a big block chevy water pump.

[dreamcatcher]

Chevy water pump?  How does that work?I think just a pusher fan would help.Mine runs 200 to 230.But I would still got with aluminum if I had the choice.  Speaking of shrouds...Does that large rubber piece that goes down by the K-member have anything to do with cooling?I never put that on my car as I cant find a picture and cant figure out how it fits.

[HPP]

The basic rule of thumb with cooling is overheating at low speed tends to indicate air flow problems, while overheating at cruising speeds indicate water speed problems. 

Airflow is related to fan size, spacing, coupling methods, and its related air flow routing as provided by shrouds and panels and other obstructions in the path of air flow. 

Water flow is related to pulley diameters, thermostat temps and styles, hose types, and engine block internal water passage cleanliness. 

Most cooling issues can be traced to one or several of these pieces that either have been altered from stock, or if output of the engine has been increased, have not been improve a corresponding amount to support the additional power output.

[dreamcatcher]

I have also heard that mopar changed from a clutch fan on these cars to dirrect drive fans for a fix.I am running a clutch fan at this time.

[loctite]

One more thing. I had an overheating problem on another car and tried everything. After doing alot of reading on this I found out that you can have to much water pump. One that push'ed the water to fast thru the system. (hi output or so much more % pump and so on) The water has to go thru the radiator slow enought to cool. Water going thru to fast won't cool down enought. This makes since  because the radiator is where the water cools.  Sounds crazy but I put on a stock pump and that fixed the problem.

[62 Max]

Mine bird the original 956 with a new three core,factory shroud,223 fan,6 blade a/c pump and 180* thermostat,has "never" ran hot under any conditions.

[dreamcatcher]

Mine bird the original 956 with a new three core,factory shroud,223 fan,6 blade a/c pump and 180* thermostat,has "never" ran hot under any conditions.

Was the fan dirrect drive or clutch?

[62 Max]

Mine bird the original 956 with a new three core,factory shroud,223 fan,6 blade a/c pump and 180* thermostat,has "never" ran hot under any conditions.

Was the fan dirrect drive or clutch?

No clutch.

[SBBob]

When I first got the Bird it over heated on a regular basis.  Cleaned the block with flush twice and that helped a lot, but driving in a parade or traffic was still nerve wracking.  I used the original top and bottom tanks and had a custom 5 core radiator made.  Looks stock with the correct number and the fan shroud fits perfectly.  This added about another 1/2 gallon of fluid and the temp now stays right at 185 degrees even when moving slow.

[dreamcatcher]

All good information to look at here.I have owned a few vetts and they have smaller air intakes than the birds but never had a problem untill I installed headers and a blower.Headers put too much heat under a hood.Will never run another header.I wrapped them and it helped a bunch.I know my bird can run cool.I will post a few pictures but something must be different with what I am running.I have a wide 2 row core and my fan almost touches the radiator now.I dont think I can go any thicker.But maybe a non-clutch fan and a good pusher.I run a 190 thermostat now

[Charger-Bodie]

Mine cools perfectly with the correct fan clutch and the Glen Ray max cool Radiator. 170 all day long even when its hot. Sitting in traffic once it wormed up to about 180, but only once and it was a hot one that day and we were just creeping along.

[moparstuart]

My SB runs hot too...in fact so hot I cant drive it..my radiator almost touches the fan with no spacer.It is wide but only 2 row.I want to install an aluminum radiator too but I cant find one to fit my car.Both outlets are on the same side on mine(passengers).I have never seen a radiator but it matches my engine outlets.

i can get you a champion ( im a champion distributor)
that will work  call me if you need help

[hotrod98]

I have an aftermarket radiator in the car now and that could be part of the problem. Not sure. I think I'll try the four core aluminum radiator and a new water pump. The only time that it overheats is when I'm idling around in traffic. I do have an open style posher fan but it's still not enough. It's so strange how some birds run cooler than others. It could be engine timimg, distributor timing, jetting or a little bit of everything combined.

[HPP]

The only time that it overheats is when I'm idling around in traffic. I do have an open style posher fan but it's still not enough.

That is an airflow problem. An open style pusher fan is not moving enough air in traffic to keep it cool. Shroud with a fixed pitch fan/puller setup correctly would be much more effective.

[BigBlockSam]

I have an aftermarket radiator in the car now and that could be part of the problem

that very well could be . aluminum rad plus an hp water pump and a big pusher fan . not all pusher fans are equal . get the biggest one you can and i always get an open pusher fan, so the shroud won't block airflow. . when you have an aluminum rad and your temp gets high . the pusher fan will bring it down pretty quick .
if you have the stock rad and your  temp gets high the pusher fan will help a little but it takes a while .
  plus i use two bottles of water wetter in the antifreeze.
i went through hell getting my rod drivable . small rad , cause there's no room for a bigger one . when i switched to an aluminum rad , that was the key to getting the temp down . good luck 

[hotrod98]

The only time that it overheats is when I'm idling around in traffic. I do have an open style posher fan but it's still not enough.

That is an airflow problem. An open style pusher fan is not moving enough air in traffic to keep it cool. Shroud with a fixed pitch fan/puller setup correctly would be much more effective.

You wouldnt want a shrouded pusher fan. That would block air from being pulled through by the regular fan blade. That would make the problem worse. I'm using both fans while idling around.

[HPP]

Read more closely, please. I did notate puller in that statement.

So help me with this, what is a 223 or a 224 fan? I'm not much of a mopar numbers type guys, so I don't know what those are. Also, you say you have an aftermarket radiator, what type or kind?

[62 Max]

Read more closely, please. I did notate puller in that statement.

So help me with this, what is a 223 or a 224 fan? I'm not much of a mopar numbers type guys, so I don't know what those are. Also, you say you have an aftermarket radiator, what type or kind?

The 223 fan is a fixed seven blade fan,it differs from the standard seven blade as the blades are sandwiched between the two piece center section,the standard seven blade is riveted to just one side.

[HPP]

Thanks.  So a fixed pitch 7 blade fan should move mucho amounts of air unless the pitch on the blades is somewhat flat. This isn't one of those factory style flex fans with the large but weak/thin blades is it?

So hotrod, what is your engine build like? Also, your radiator, you mention itis aftermarket. Is it just a stock replacment type from an aftermarket manufacturer?

[62 Max]

The fan is not flex,here is the 223 on another motor.

[hotrod98]

Just realized something. I have the 224 style fan and need to find a 223 style fan. I never did locate one back when I was first putting this car together. The 223 fan is the heavy duty with the blades sandwiched and riveted between the two plates. That would help but I still plan to buy an aluminum radiator.

[swissmopar]

Some pics of my installation:
- 4 row Champion aluminum radiator

[HPP]

That 223 should move some air, assuming it has not been flattened out over the years.

Okay, I'll have to assume you have all the basics covered such as state of tune of the engine-it isn't running too lean or timing is too advanced, that it isn't built to be a 700 horsepower monster, and that you have the 224 fan sitting half way into a shroud that covers all the radiator and that the hoses aren't collapsing. If any of these are factors, changes to the cooling system may not help as much as you'd like.

So, some facts about cooling- copper/brass radiators actually disappate heat faster and more efficiantly than aluminum. However, the dissimilar metals require soldering together and these metals combined with hard water can create electrolysis that will corrode the joints and create solder blooms that can plug tubes. Aluminum, however, is stronger and allows more efficient construction even though the material is less efficient. Most aluminum radiators are made from 1" to 1.5" tubes instead of the .5" tubes of a brass radiator. This allows them to have greater surface area over the span of the radiator which will dissapate more heat. Similarly, these bigger tubes hold more coolant than a comparable brass radiator, so if your car is marginally cooled now, going to more capacity with greater area will cool better. In light of this, replacing your thin, four core brass radiator with an exact duplicate, thin 4 core aluminum radiator will not yield any increase in cooling capacity and in fact may make it worse.

Radiator considertions-tube count, exposed tube area, fin contact, fin angle, fin count, and coolant capacity all are factors in how much heat can be radiated from the radiator. This is why cheaper isnt always better and more reputable manufacturers have made these considerations and have built their units to provide these benefits.

Other considerations-paint inhibits heat transfer. Heavily painted radiators, or engine blocks for that matter, reduce efficiency of thermal transfer. Airflow through the radiator is paramount. Any holes in the radiator suppoprt allow air to flow elsewhere. A shroud not sealed to the radiator allows air flow to escape. The fan should be half way in to the shroud with no more than 1" of clearence to the shroud to maximize pulling effect. Air also has to be able to escape the engine bay once it is pulled in. Adding large tube headers takes up a lot of real estate the reduces airflow out of the engine bay. Removing the rear upper control arm adjusting plates may help air flow some. In extreme cases, small 12v puller fans can be mounted in these areas to aid flow. Capacity aids cooling. Larger radiators, larger hoses, larger pump housings all aid in capacity. Cross flow radiators tend to have more capacity than down flow radiators. Through not original to some cars, overflow bottles are a great way to keep maximum capacity up without worrying about it everytime you start the car. If you don't have one, they are worth adding.

Pulley ratios were optimized from the factory for the specific application and the advertised horsepower levels available on the cars. Change the power level of the engine, add accessories, or change the pullies and you've changed the ratio and coolant may be passing too slow or too fast through the system. Either way may not allow the correct amount of heat transfer. To work around pulley ratios, alterations to coolant flow can be experimented with to better dial in what you need. Different thermostats have different flow capabilities. Water pumps with more blades or curved blades move more water. Riveting a plate to the back of the impeller moves more water. Try this, remove the thermostat, drive the car as you normally would and see if overheating gets better or worse. If it get better, you need more coolant flow. If it gets worse, you need less flow. To restrict flow you can try a thermostat with a smaller opening or replace it with a restrictor plate to slow the flow. Another trick in this area to the use of multipass radiators. If your coolant is moving too fast, you can get radiators that have baffels built in to them to direct the flow across the core 2 or 3 times to aid in heat disappation. This slows down the flow and gives the heated coolant more time in the radiator to disapate heat.

So there are a few considerations to play with over the weekend and to aid in your research.

[ACUDANUT]

 How much are these Champion Radiators ??

[swissmopar]

How much are these Champion Radiators ??

http://www.championradiators.com/page/424795590

Champion All Aluminum Radiator
4-Row Core
Polished Tanks
Cools 800hp
CORE:17 ½" Tall x 26" Wide
TOTAL: 22 1/4" (23 1/4" Incl Cap) x 29" Incl Brackets
Inlet 1.5" pass side/ outlet 1.75" driver side
Tanks 3.2" Thick
Almost 3" thick core
Bracket mount System
When using electric fans:
Two 12" Electric fans recommended for this core size
Fan shipping is FREE when purchased with a radiator

Aluminum Shroud is also Available
SKU:   MC375
Price:   $279.98