Lost Shipment 241 New 1929 -1930 Nash cars?

[Arigmaster]

I have been doing a little side research on Greatlakes piracy and ran across an interesting story. I do not know enough about the Nash to know the present average value of the vehicles but I was intreagued by this because of it's comparison to some barn find stories. Nash automobiles were built in Milwaukee back in the early 1900's and at some point the facility and company ended up turning into AMC - Rambler. However, this story has to do with the SS Senator which sank in Lake Michigan 20 miles off Port Washington WI. in October 1929. The steam ship collided with the SS Marquette and sank. The SS Marquette took off leaving the Senator to fend for it's self (hit and run?) There were 7 people known lost in the sinking. Survivors that didnt jump on to the Marquette were picked up by a ship that was 5 miles away and heard the impact.

The ships cargo was reported and confirmed to be 241 New Nash automobiles bound for Michigan. The wreck was discovered and identified in the summer of 2005. As far as I know the ship was identified by historical maritime records compared with the approximate position where it was found by side sonar. The find was reported by Rob Polich and Paul Ehorn of Kenosha WI. while on a different wreck mapping and research project.

It has been suggested in correspondence from 2008. The condition of the cars underwater best case would be near perfect. The Senator was rammed and when down fast. Rob Polich indicates the ship stayed together and landed upright on the bottom, the cargo, at least a portion of it, may be totally undamaged. The question of salvage always arises though, and that's a different matter. Cars of this era have been salvaged in good condition, only to have them disintegrate very rapidly on contact with the air. (saltwater wrecks?) There have also been several cases of cars being salvaged with much damage done to both the cars and the shipwreck in the process. The constant temperature where the Senator is would be 39 F with no light or oxygen. Thus no organisms or oxidation.

There has been no more word about the ship since 2008 that I could find. I would have to assume that no one has attempted to dive on the vessel and with the 7 individuals remains still on board it may be difficult to lay claim or obtain permission to dive it. I don't know how those laws work.



I have to wonder if there were any lost or stolen shipments of similar nature out there.

[Dino]

Interesting story.

The great lakes are full of shipwrecks and their crew.  I think one of the main issues with recovering wrecks is the danger associated with it.  It can get pretty nasty on the lakes.  I sometimes wonder what we would see if we could drain the lakes and oceans.

[tan top]

  interesting  stuff

[TruckDriver]

I heard that story once before being from Wisconsin. They recently pulled a WWII fighter out of the lake too that was lost on a training mission too. I believe it was a F-4U Corsair.

[moparstuart]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,66172.0.html

[Arigmaster]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,66172.0.html

I remember that thread... That car was only 150' down so the tempratures and oxygen levels did support organisms and oxidation.

I watched a few videos of the different planes they pulled out of the lake. I think they found the Wolverine (carrier) a few years ago as well. The Senator is in a much deeper portion of the lake than the planes too. The Senator is on the bottom of an area called the Milwaukee Basin. http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,32015456001_1915688,00.html

[stripedelete]

The trees (less the needles) are still on the Xmas tree ship at the bottom Lake Michigan.  There are still recognizable cars and farm machinery on a couple of Lake Erie wrecks (remember Lake Erie is very shallow).   As morbid as it is, they claim a number of the Fitzgerald's crew's bodies are still aboard  - very much intact. 

So a pretty solid Nash deep in Lake Michigan is, imo, very possible.  But if I'm not mistaken they are the property of the state.  Except for staying mum on the exact coordinates, I don't think they can keep you from diving the wreck, but it would be illegal to bring anything up.  If it's super deep why go if there's no return for the risk and expense.  So that could be why things died in '08. Or it could be that after '08 everyone is to friggin' broke.  Regardless, it would be very cool to see it.   Thanks for posting.

[Brads70]

interesting story!    My Dad has a 1940 Nash hot rod. Never seen another like it.  He had been trying to sell it to buy his dream car a 69 Coronet 500.

[ITSA426]

Is this the wreck that was covered in a Discovery or History program that included the Badger?  We crossed Lake Michigan on the Badger in a 56 Olds on the way the the Olds centennial car show in Lansing several years ago.  Those ships were part of the rail system at their peak.  Great stories about harsh times.

[Magnumcharger]

As morbid as it is, they claim a number of the Fitzgerald's crew's bodies are still aboard  - very much intact. 

The lake, as it's said, never gives up it's dead....

[aussiemuscle]

But if I'm not mistaken they are the property of the state.  

i don't know a lot, but doesn't salvage rights go to however finds it and applies for salvage title? i'm thinking that applies to oceans, not sure about lakes.

even really deep there's usually some organic life that would damage the cargo.

I seem to remember a similar story about some brand new & rare cars sinking with a ship. tucker torpedo? 

[ChargerST]

I seem to remember a similar story about some brand new & rare cars sinking with a ship. tucker torpedo? 

Are you refering to the Chrysler Norseman that was on board the SS Andrea Doria? The ship sank and the prototype disappeared for good... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Norseman

[stripedelete]

But if I'm not mistaken they are the property of the state.  

i don't know a lot, but doesn't salvage rights go to however finds it and applies for salvage title? i'm thinking that applies to oceans, not sure about lakes.

The great lakes are different from international waters.  My neighbor is an avid/frequent wreck diver I'll get the "skinny" from him.   He has explained it before, but, I don't remember.

I know at some point wrecks become "historic" and "property of the state".   I'll guess each state has a law that says, "if it sank before this date" or "if it's been down there for X years".....  Otherwise, you wouldn't be able salvage your own boat if it sank.   I think even the Florida treasure hunters have to give a big cut to the state.

[stripedelete]

OK, just came form my neighbors shop.  In August he dove the wreck of the Lakeland which is also in Lake Michigan and also has 50 to 100 new Nashes.   It sank December of 1924.   They say this one was scuttled for the insurance money.

According to his log book the bottom rests at 210 feet of water and the Nashes are at about 170 ft.  His first hand account is: the Nashes are in very good condition and restorable.  The filaments are still in the headlights, caps and wires are in place and intact, the tires are still have air.  He said the only thing noticeably wrong is that the headliners are hanging down.

One of the guys he dove it with did a local presentation on the dive just last week.  Since the presentation was "for profit" he said it might be a while before he can get some of his pictures. 

In regard to salvage, he said in the early 90's the great lake states and Canada all passed similar versions of the "Submerged Land Act"  which boils down to "if it hits the bottom it's ours". He said they wouldn't keep you form salvaging your own vessel but you would probably have to buy a permit$$ and be responsible for any environmental issue$$$.

As far as raising Nashes, he said the danger and expense far outweigh the payoff (and that's before the state takes its cut). 

[troy.70R/T]

Good government. They don't want to salvage it, but if your are willing to risk your time, money and life then they want "their" part of the profits. Kind of reminds me of mineral rights. 

[robdive1]

Gents,
The Senator did have 241 Hudsons aboard her when she sunk. Some corrections:
We actually were looking for her specifically when Paul and I found her, a bug from a research project of mine that I planted in Pauls very skilled sonar ear some years before.

In all we found the wreck after only two seasons of searching, she came up strong on our sonar and lies in very deep water off Port Washington Wisc. and wa a puzzle to locate.

While I am personally a very accomplished deep mix gas diver, i have never dove her, nor anyone else since neither of us have released the site location numbers. She really should be touched with the use of a rebreather or better yet a ROV rather than open circuit trimix SCUBA.

Vehicles recovered from the Great Lakes are typically in excellent condition, complete with paint and white walls if so equipped! However once they come in contact with air they deteriorate at an expedient rate.

Your reference to the wreck of the Lakeland,  ironically also off Port Washington Wi., is correct. and a vehicle was recovered from the wreck in the 1970's. It contained amazingly bright red paint and white pin stripping, however it disintegrated quickly after being exposed to air.

I wrote a fairly in-depth article; "The Wreck of the Steamer Lakeland" by Rob Polich, for Advanced Diver Magazine some years back that you can still purchase from ADM or view online. In the article there is a picture of one of the cars that i shot in one of her stern holds. Roadsters were also present and were fantastic; gauges still readable, white walls gleam and paint still present. Awesome!

Much work goes into these finds and conveyances, as a result I appreciate your interest! 
Rob Polich

[Mike DC]

   
How does a vehicle remain so nice on the bottom but deteriorate so quickly once brought back up?  I don't see how the deterioration rate could be much faster than if the submerging had just been temporary. 
   

[Ghoste]

Some of those spots in the Great Lakes are fairly deep and cold with very low levels of oxygen in some pockets in the water.  A better question for a marine biologist than me but growing up beside them its something Ive heard before.

[JB400]

I've heard of ships being well preserved before as well.  Funny how well things can be well preserved if the conditions are right.

[Mike DC]

 
Yeah, I'm aware of the low-oxygen & temp issues down at the bottom of the lakes.  

My father & grandfather both worked in the Great Lakes shipping industry decades ago.   My grandfather knew the Edmund Fitz had gone down before the news stations did.



I'm a little stumped as to how the length of time underwater would affect the speed of the decay process after it comes back out.  I would expect the post-raising decay process on two items to be the same regardless of whether it had been under for 30 hours or 30 years, assuming they both came out of the water in the same condition.

[Tilar]

I'm a little stumped as to how the length of time underwater would affect the speed of the decay process after it comes back out.  I would expect the post-raising decay process on two items to be the same regardless of whether it had been under for 30 hours or 30 years, assuming they both came out of the water in the same condition.

Same here. I understand how it could happen in a salt water environment but in fresh water I would think it would be a matter of drying it out and then it's Miller Time. 

[stripedelete]

+1

They salvage old growth lumber from the bottom of lakes and rivers with no issues.

[moparstuart]

can someone go grab me some parts for the 31 nash rat rod please     a little rust is fine

[RTDaddy]

can someone go grab me some parts for the 31 nash rat rod please     a little rust is fine

There's one in every bunch.     How you doin Stuart?

"IF YOU'RE UNDER CONTROL, YOU AIN'T GOING FAST ENOUGH.'

[Dino]

can someone go grab me some parts for the 31 nash rat rod please     a little rust is fine

Dang Stewie, you make me want one of those now.  First the T-56 now a rat rod, you're a bad influence!