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Author Topic: Tony's Daytona discussion  (Read 33902 times)
hemigeno
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« Reply #100 on: March 13, 2013, 08:36:13 AM »

I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.

I didn't set out with that goal in mind anyway, and had zero intentions at the start of competing in OE.  Even as my restoration became more and more focused on original-style details, I still didn't plan on competing, in part because of the tales of political gamesmanship relayed by Dave Walden and others.  As the resto neared completion -- and after receiving some great feedback which improved the car over where it was before -- I decided to play along anyway since in our opinion the car was about as good as it can be.  

Having gone through the process, it's not easy for anyone to get a car into a condition worthy of consideration for an OE competition.  All the competitors are to be commended for that effort.  I'm more dismayed by what's happened after the 'Nats much more than what happened before or during the show, but Dave doesn't need any help in spelling out those details.  I'm happy with the finished product - not because of an award, a trophy, article in the magazine, etc. - but because after doing years of research and parts scrounging, Vance and I restored the car in the best possible fashion using the best parts.  THAT is the payoff, being satisfied with the finished product; and that same payoff can happen for anyone in this hobby and at any level of restoration, not just the competitors in an OE competition.  Don't get me wrong... it's still gratifying when recognition is given and others appreciate our hard work, but my goal was met before the show & judging ever started last August.

 Twocents
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« Reply #101 on: March 13, 2013, 09:38:35 AM »

I see another TV show in the works: Velocity Channel's Mopar OEM-Wars........

In all seriousness...... Tackling a quest of perfection is an admirable endeavour. But, based on the mentorship of one Geno, I'll heed his advise and REALLY comtemplate ever doing this. My former '68 Hemi Charger R/T was challenging enough. Try finding an original high-pressure power steering pump hose for a '68 B-body !!! It's a 1-year application...  brickwall   (found one though, good used) <<< a case of "never give up"........  
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Troy
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« Reply #102 on: March 13, 2013, 10:30:25 AM »

Don't get me wrong Geno; what I previously posted wasn't meant to be a slam although I admit that it may sound that way. I poured over your pictures to help me in my restoration & that was helpful beyond belief. A 90+ point car as far as I'm concerned is as perfect as it gets. However, as we all know, judging can be very subjective & those who do not win may sometimes have a case of sour grapes and I may be mistaken, but it seems as though that this thread has turned in that direction.

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« Reply #103 on: March 13, 2013, 11:53:37 AM »

I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.

For some, it's the challenge of doing it, it's a major goal... I love doing the OEM-correct route on occasion. But, like you Mark, the trophy is nothing.. Over the last 35 years I've probably lost more trophies to the attic gremlins than some who live for "the trophy". Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be recognized by your peers, but one shouldn't head to the show with the anticipation of getting something. I have this conversation many times with the newbies into the hobby, some get discouraged rather quickly... I like the  Shocked I get on occassion...  2thumbs  <<< something you'll be getting a lot of once that '68 hits the road.....

I totally agree Troy..  The hard work  and the compliments from people are enough for me.  The trophies do nothing for me at all.   For that matter, having to make stuff up about my cars to make a magazine article or story sound better is nuts!!   Just not my cup of tea, but to each his own i guess.                                                                                                                                                                                                                 On a positive note Dave, Im excited to get my glass this week for my A12 thats almost done.  Charlie said it turned out awesome!!! Its one of the last steps after I fire the motor next week.   Thanks a lot...  Eric

I couldn't agree with Eric and Troy more, however, there are some awards that I would like to win and would be really pissed if I lost to a heap of crap that was mis-represented or underserving of such award!
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
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« Reply #104 on: March 13, 2013, 11:55:53 AM »

I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.

I didn't set out with that goal in mind anyway, and had zero intentions at the start of competing in OE.  Even as my restoration became more and more focused on original-style details, I still didn't plan on competing, in part because of the tales of political gamesmanship relayed by Dave Walden and others.  As the resto neared completion -- and after receiving some great feedback which improved the car over where it was before -- I decided to play along anyway since in our opinion the car was about as good as it can be.  

Having gone through the process, it's not easy for anyone to get a car into a condition worthy of consideration for an OE competition.  All the competitors are to be commended for that effort.  I'm more dismayed by what's happened after the 'Nats much more than what happened before or during the show, but Dave doesn't need any help in spelling out those details.  I'm happy with the finished product - not because of an award, a trophy, article in the magazine, etc. - but because after doing years of research and parts scrounging, Vance and I restored the car in the best possible fashion using the best parts.  THAT is the payoff, being satisfied with the finished product; and that same payoff can happen for anyone in this hobby and at any level of restoration, not just the competitors in an OE competition.  Don't get me wrong... it's still gratifying when recognition is given and others appreciate our hard work, but my goal was met before the show & judging ever started last August.

 Twocents


Excellent attitude towards everything that happened after the fact.  In the end, that is all that you need to be happy with, the job you did and the end result of how you want the car to look!   2thumbs
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
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« Reply #105 on: March 13, 2013, 04:21:28 PM »

Try finding an original high-pressure power steering pump hose for a '68 B-body !!! It's a 1-year application...  brickwall   (found one though, good used) <<< a case of "never give up"........  

I actually saw a NOS one on Ebay a while back Troy. 2k was starting bid or buy it now I don't remember which. Dosen't matter much as the first bidder would have probably been the only bidder at that price. Thought of you when I saw it as I remember you were looking for one at one time. You had the Daytona by that time though. I'm still looking for a NOS 69 Hemi hose too. Stuff can be hard to find on the other hand sometimes it amazes you what pops out of the wood work.
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Mytur Binsdirti
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« Reply #106 on: March 13, 2013, 05:07:46 PM »

Try finding an original high-pressure power steering pump hose for a '68 B-body !!! It's a 1-year application...  brickwall   (found one though, good used) <<< a case of "never give up"........  

I actually saw a NOS one on Ebay a while back Troy. 2k was starting bid or buy it now I don't remember which. Dosen't matter much as the first bidder would have probably been the only bidder at that price. Thought of you when I saw it as I remember you were looking for one at one time. You had the Daytona by that time though. I'm still looking for a NOS 69 Hemi hose too. Stuff can be hard to find on the other hand sometimes it amazes you what pops out of the wood work.


Yikes(!!!), at that price, I'm cleaning up my original one.
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hemi68charger
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« Reply #107 on: March 13, 2013, 05:41:51 PM »


Yikes(!!!), at that price, I'm cleaning up my original one.

Ahhh, yes, I would..... Be willing to either spend a LOT of money OR, as Mr. Eastwood would say, "... feel lucky?"
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Troy
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« Reply #108 on: March 13, 2013, 06:37:44 PM »

I just read this thread and boy am I out of the loop.... IM LOST!!!   EV

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« Reply #109 on: March 13, 2013, 08:20:58 PM »

i don't know what has gone on before, during, or after the show, but i would like some insight on why this particular car is being called a heap of crap. is it not a real daytona, with a really nice restoration? who here would not love to own it?
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« Reply #110 on: March 13, 2013, 08:33:52 PM »

IF you are referencing my quote from above, I was saying in general (not specifically pointing to anyone on here) about how I felt if I lost to a "heap of crap" as I have at a judged event such as a certain Concours event in VT.
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
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« Reply #111 on: March 13, 2013, 11:58:50 PM »

Wow !!!!  Didn't know Geno did that !!! .....

Hi Troy!  Thanks for the comments.  Your quote above is a prime example of the problem that occurred regarding this ordeal.  The Facts have been hidden!  The point stressed by Cliff Gromer in his article on this topic had surmised that the "standout car" at this years Nationals was the White Daytona.  That was NOT the case and just an attempt to provide damage control about a vehicle that he had already determined had won the event.  Nowhere did he mention that the White car didn't win the Top Award!   To the contrary, he made it appear as if that car was the winner!  (Gene Lewis' Red Daytona - Restored by Vance Cummins - won BEST of SHOW.)  He also wrote how the White Daytona had more authentic original parts that any other Daytona on the planet.  Both Gene and John's Daytona's had MORE original parts than the White car.  Cliff also had the pictures and knowledge of the horrific rust that the White car had prior to restoration but did everything he could to hide that fact in the article.  He did however indirectly attribute false information about the OTHER cars.  

Take John's Redline tires on his Yellow Daytona for instance.  Cliff wrote that his tires were incorrect for a 69 Hamtramck Daytona vehicle.  I provided those tires to John.  Prior to John receiving them from me, Tony tried numerous times to purchase them for his car.  He even tried to have Steven Juliano talk me into selling them to him when Steven came up to visit me.  I told Steven I would burn them before I sold them to Tony.  I can't figure out why Tony wanted them if they were wrong?  I guess they became the "wrong" tires for a Daytona AFTER I told him that I would never sell them to him.  For the record, John and Paul Jacobs went to the Survivor tent to PROVE that those redlines were used on a 1969 Charger.  A Survivor Hamtramck 69 Charger still had the EXACT same type of original redline spare in its trunk.  Do you think the FACTS mattered to that upstanding and unbiased magazine editor?   Of course not!  He still wrote how the tires were "wrong" when they were proven to be correct!  What a fiasco.    
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« Reply #112 on: March 14, 2013, 08:39:23 AM »

I don't know; at this point in my life, receiving a cheesy $20.00 plastic trophy for recognition of my hard work & tons of dough spent on a car that's too nice to drive really doesn't seem worth it to me.

I agree 100%.  For some people it goes way beyond what seems to be seen on the surface.  A person's reputation and ethics are usually associated with the actions they express.  Consider the link(s) I have posted below involving the person who started this thread.  I know it is unrelated to this subject matter but since it relates to similar underhanded practices being discussed, I thought Mike could come here to shed some light on both scenarios!  2thumbs

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.0

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=86271.msg861351#msg861351
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« Reply #113 on: March 14, 2013, 08:52:55 AM »

dave, i have to ask a couple of things.

1. this discussion you are part of goes far beyond the three daytonas at the nationals, but this question focuses directly on the cars and the awards. all three of them received gold. are you saying that perhaps not all of them deserved that status? no matter the starting point, it was the finished product that was judged. i don't know the cut-off point between the levels (gold/silver, etc), but did any of the three cars score low enough that it barely earned gold? are you saying the judging scores were manipulated to the advantage of just one, two, or all three of the cars?  

2. since i don't have a score card, can we establish all of the players in what often seems to be a personal vendetta? i'm going from memory, but i think the short list includes one of the three daytona owners, the restoration shop of that daytona, at least one magazine editor, and every oe gold judge at the nationals within the last five years.  

with three of these oe gold cars to your credit, i cannot imagine a better source of knowledge in this particular area of restoration. your last post states

... a prime example of the problem that occurred regarding this ordeal.  The Facts have been hidden!  

i believe that comment is specific to the 2012 nationals event. other than the information shared on this forum, a large number of people know nothing more about the three cars, nor the information/misinformation in regard to them. you are certainly respected and qualified in this area, and claim to want the masses educated. i'd like to hear, from you, what the ordeal is, and what facts are missing. all three owners are members here, so what better place to set the matter straight.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #114 on: March 14, 2013, 08:53:51 AM »

...  Both Gene and John's Daytona's had MORE original parts than the White car...

I don't know the extent of Tony's process, but I DO KNOW Geno's. We had long chats about this and about that regarding the extent of him finding original parts, material, etc for the car.... Sometimes I felt like saying, as Cher said in Moonstruck, " Snap out of it !!! "  slap   lol

The man was on a Mission !!!!! Our military needs leaders like this...  coolgleamA
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Troy
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« Reply #115 on: March 14, 2013, 09:02:28 AM »

Your questions should be directed at the "click" who continues to lie about the other two Daytona's.  I can't answer why they went behind Gene & John's back and contacted magazine editors to print false things about their cars.  I have my thoughts as to why they did it and believe I have made those points perfectly clear.  Like I stated in my last post, maybe Mike can come here to explain the controversies that are starting to surface as they relate to his projects.
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« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2013, 09:14:46 AM »

...
1. this discussion you are part of goes far beyond the three daytonas at the nationals, but this question focuses directly on the cars and the awards. all three of them received gold. are you saying that perhaps not all of them deserved that status? no matter the starting point, it was the finished product that was judged. i don't know the cut-off point between the levels (gold/silver, etc), but did any of the three cars score low enough that it barely earned gold? are you saying the judging scores were manipulated to the advantage of just one, two, or all three of the cars?  
...

I don't make the rules/criteria on these top-level judging events, so I'm in NO position to be a judge. But, from a novices point of view I have this observation. If there is so much emphasis placed on original parts being used and/or NOS parts, wouldn't it hold true for the sheetmetal. It is one thing to replace a rusted/damaged panel with a NOS piece ( something we all strive to even find let alone actually have the luxury of using ), but it's another to be able to keep the original panel. In my eye, an original panel even trumps a NOS piece... 

Just my  Twocents
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Troy
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« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2013, 09:17:51 AM »

...
1. this discussion you are part of goes far beyond the three daytonas at the nationals, but this question focuses directly on the cars and the awards. all three of them received gold. are you saying that perhaps not all of them deserved that status? no matter the starting point, it was the finished product that was judged. i don't know the cut-off point between the levels (gold/silver, etc), but did any of the three cars score low enough that it barely earned gold? are you saying the judging scores were manipulated to the advantage of just one, two, or all three of the cars?  
...

I don't make the rules/criteria on these top-level judging events, so I'm in NO position to be a judge. But, from a novices point of view I have this observation. If there is so much emphasis placed on original parts being used and/or NOS parts, wouldn't it hold true for the sheetmetal. It is one thing to replace a rusted/damaged panel with a NOS piece ( something we all strive to even find let alone actually have the luxury of using ), but it's another to be able to keep the original panel. In my eye, an original panel even trumps a NOS piece... 

Just my  Twocents

You would think that would be the case!
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
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« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2013, 09:37:47 AM »

Your questions should be directed at the "click" who continues to lie about the other two Daytona's.  I can't answer why they went behind Gene & John's back and contacted magazine editors to print false things about their cars.  I have my thoughts as to why they did it and believe I have made those points perfectly clear.  Like I stated in my last post, maybe Mike can come here to explain the controversies that are starting to surface as they relate to his projects.

regarding the magazines; not all of us have read them. what false things are being said about gene's and/or john's cars? i addressed my question to YOU, as you are certainly the foremost expert on oe-gold restorations; three of them sitting in your garage attests to that. gene and john have not shared their thoughts on the matter, so it could be considered impolite to ask them to explain things.

since you defer to answer, help me out here. who is part of the "click" behind this? i certainly don't mind asking them, once i know who to ask. i would, however, like to know your thoughts, as apparently i am not grasping what is already "perfectly clear". am i focusing too much on the daytonas, and not enough on the unrelated stuff? 
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2013, 09:59:52 AM »

I don't make the rules/criteria on these top-level judging events, so I'm in NO position to be a judge. But, from a novices point of view I have this observation. If there is so much emphasis placed on original parts being used and/or NOS parts, wouldn't it hold true for the sheetmetal. It is one thing to replace a rusted/damaged panel with a NOS piece ( something we all strive to even find let alone actually have the luxury of using ), but it's another to be able to keep the original panel. In my eye, an original panel even trumps a NOS piece...  Just my  Twocents

so what is the contention, among these three cars? does the white car have aftermarket panels, rather than factory ones? i understand the emphasis on a factory part over a reproduction, although the hobby can get downright silly when it comes to defining original versus nos parts. by definition, both are "original" parts. chrysler made them; it doesn't get any more original than that.

the line becomes blurred when redefining an original part as being the one unique piece that came attached to a certain car. regarding the re-use of an original panel, i fail to see the distinction between welding on a nos panel, versus filling in a large rust hole with what, exactly? a piece from another factory panel? is that still considered the unique original, because the repaired area no longer is.

the more i read about this, the more i start to see mike g's point about them just being machines...
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2013, 10:36:40 AM »

I think the issue is comparing vehicle A with having all original sheet metal to vehicle B that either has aftermarket repro or pieces used off of a donor car.  I would imagine that since it is "original equipment (OE) " that full credit should be given to vehicle A that has all of its original metal that it was born with.  One thing to consider is that assembly line parts were not necessarily the same as over the counter NOS parts.  Perfect example is the green assembly line oil filter.  Over the counter NOS ones could have been obtained in the red, white, and blue.  NOS?  Absolutely, however, not assembly line correct!  Now if someone were to repro that green assembly line oil filter, should such person get full credit of points vs. someone who has a pristine original assembly line one?
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
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« Reply #121 on: March 14, 2013, 10:42:17 AM »

I think the issue is comparing vehicle A with having all original sheet metal to vehicle B that either has aftermarket repro or pieces used off of a donor car.  I would imagine that since it is "original equipment (OE) " that full credit should be given to vehicle A that has all of its original metal that it was born with.  One thing to consider is that assembly line parts were not necessarily the same as over the counter NOS parts.  Perfect example is the green assembly line oil filter.  Over the counter NOS ones could have been obtained in the red, white, and blue.  NOS?  Absolutely, however, not assembly line correct!  Now if someone were to repro that green assembly line oil filter, should such person get full credit of points vs. someone who has a pristine original assembly line one?
I think repops of the green filters should be banned altogether   icon_smile_big nana
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« Reply #122 on: March 14, 2013, 10:56:52 AM »

If they made green filters, you'd stockplie them.  Don't pretend.  I've seen your socks  lol
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« Reply #123 on: March 14, 2013, 11:03:44 AM »

I think the issue is comparing vehicle A with having all original sheet metal to vehicle B that either has aftermarket repro or pieces used off of a donor car.  I would imagine that since it is "original equipment (OE) " that full credit should be given to vehicle A that has all of its original metal that it was born with.  One thing to consider is that assembly line parts were not necessarily the same as over the counter NOS parts.  Perfect example is the green assembly line oil filter.  Over the counter NOS ones could have been obtained in the red, white, and blue.  NOS?  Absolutely, however, not assembly line correct!  Now if someone were to repro that green assembly line oil filter, should such person get full credit of points vs. someone who has a pristine original assembly line one?

valid explanation about the sheet metal, but if i am not mistaken, aren't the cars being scored against a judging sheet, and not each other? if so, what is the underlying issue in this instance? why is the white car so controversial?

you mention the oil filters. is the part number the same for the green and r/w/b items? does any assembly line installed oil filter from 1969 still exist? i've seen a few replacement ones in boxes discussed, but those would not be assembly line parts.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #124 on: March 14, 2013, 11:26:03 AM »

The oil filter I had on the car dealer replacement



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1970 FY1 Superbird RM23UOA166242
1970 EV2 Superbird RM23VOA179697
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1970 Coronet RT WS23UOA224126
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