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Author Topic: Tony's Daytona discussion  (Read 34371 times)
moparstuart
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« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2013, 11:34:07 AM »

If they made green filters, you'd stockplie them.  Don't pretend.  I've seen your socks  lol
they are not the correct shade for my liking  icon_smile_approve icon_smile_approve icon_smile_approve
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resq302
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« Reply #126 on: March 14, 2013, 11:36:01 AM »

Yes, there are still the green "assembly line correct" NOS filters out there but they are probably close to about $900 or more if not by now.  The part number is still the same regardless of it being a green assembly line one or the later red, white, and blue.

Again, I have never participated in this kind of judged event so I do not know first hand, but from what I have been led to believe, they are judged against Chrysler standards so they must have some kind of a requirement sheet.  So, in a way, yes, you are competing against the standards of the corporation but at the same time, competing against each other too for best in show.  For example, in the AACA where I am a judge, in order to get your first place junior award, you have to score AT LEAST a 365 out of 400 points AND be within 10 points of the highest scoring car.  Why would someone say, try and strive for a score of 366 just to get a first place when they should be trying for a perfect score.  I have lost with our el camino at the AACA Grand National judged event and gotten a second place because of some small overlooked things.  Improperly bolted in seat belts. (we had a male under the female on the hump side of the seat)  With the Grand National, you need to score a 385 or better and be within 5 points of the highest scoring car to get your Grand National First Place.  We were over the 385 points but missed the mark due to not being in that 5 point spread.  So, essentially, you should try to strive for a perfect score and hope that you get no deductions.

I think the whole reason that the white car is so controversial is that it is being misrepresented for what it was.  To be quoted in multiple magazine articles as saying that were was "no rust what so ever!"  and "body rot was not an issue.  As a matter of fact it was virtually non-existent." is an outright blatant lie due to the floor boards being holier than swiss cheese in some areas.  And then to go and back track and try to cover it up by saying that floor boards are not part of the body?  Sorry, but that is an integral part of the uni-BODY construction!  Then (and this is only here-say on my part) go and try to complain to the judges about deficiencies about the other cars because they scored better than the car they did to try and knock the competition down so they look better is just down right low in my book.  But again, that is what I heard from people who were at the show and another show where all three daytonas were at.

I don't mind telling people the truth about my car.  Yes, it has had both quarters and the trunk floor replaced.  The car is 40+ years old!  They were prone to doing that.  Shoot, I hope to be in as good a shape as my charger is in when I hit that age!  But like what has been shown here, the truth will come out and the lies that have been told will only tarnish ones character for the future.
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
duanesterrr
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« Reply #127 on: March 14, 2013, 11:50:50 AM »


I think the whole reason that the white car is so controversial is that it is being misrepresented for what it was.  To be quoted in multiple magazine articles as saying that were was "no rust what so ever!"  and "body rot was not an issue.  As a matter of fact it was virtually non-existent." is an outright blatant lie due to the floor boards being holier than swiss cheese in some areas.  And then to go and back track and try to cover it up by saying that floor boards are not part of the body?  Sorry, but that is an integral part of the uni-BODY construction!  Then (and this is only here-say on my part) go and try to complain to the judges about deficiencies about the other cars because they scored better than the car they did to try and knock the competition down so they look better is just down right low in my book.  But again, that is what I heard from people who were at the show and another show where all three daytonas were at.


From what I have gleaned from this thread there everything you said above is part of the "misrepresentation."  There is also a lot of talk about repro build sheets.  Not sure where that falls into the back-and-forth debate.  I don't see misrepresenting the condition of the floors as big of a deal as the BS.
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moparstuart
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« Reply #128 on: March 14, 2013, 11:59:45 AM »


I think the whole reason that the white car is so controversial is that it is being misrepresented for what it was.  To be quoted in multiple magazine articles as saying that were was "no rust what so ever!"  and "body rot was not an issue.  As a matter of fact it was virtually non-existent." is an outright blatant lie due to the floor boards being holier than swiss cheese in some areas.  And then to go and back track and try to cover it up by saying that floor boards are not part of the body?  Sorry, but that is an integral part of the uni-BODY construction!  Then (and this is only here-say on my part) go and try to complain to the judges about deficiencies about the other cars because they scored better than the car they did to try and knock the competition down so they look better is just down right low in my book.  But again, that is what I heard from people who were at the show and another show where all three daytonas were at.


From what I have gleaned from this thread there everything you said above is part of the "misrepresentation."  There is also a lot of talk about repro build sheets.  Not sure where that falls into the back-and-forth debate.  I don't see misrepresenting the condition of the floors as big of a deal as the BS.
  question also is was it just missing a build sheet or was it getting one to cover up other options being added  shruggy
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resq302
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« Reply #129 on: March 14, 2013, 12:07:07 PM »

Those are all very good points.  When one gets caught in a lie, it starts to cloud the actual truth.  Like Stuart said, if the build sheet is fake, (we all have our feelings about that) what is to say that other options might have been added or removed to make such a car more desireable?  In my line of work, if you lose credibility, you pretty much just lost your case!  IF this indeed did happen to this vehicle, how many other vehicles like this has it  been done to?  Its like a bird landing on a branch that has snow on it up on top of a mountain.  Once that little bit of snow falls, and the avalanche starts, there is no stopping it!  All you can do is try to hopefully out run it.  Sometimes, you get swallowed up by it and its game over! RedXShoot
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
held1823
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« Reply #130 on: March 14, 2013, 12:22:23 PM »

now we are getting somewhere, with the focus on the cars and not the extracurrical nonsense. digital photography is both cheap and easy, so one might expect a photo to be taken about every thirty seconds during the restoration process. this would be a chance to showcase one's skills, rather than cause for hiding the condition of the starting point. kudos for gene, for doing exactly that with the thread on his restoration found on here. regardless, the final product is what is being scored. isn't that what happened at the show?

if the build sheet was faked, that is indeed an issue, especially given that half of these cars had the wrong build sheet in them to begin with. wouldn't an oe-restoration require keeping the wrong build sheet with a particular car, if that was how it was constructed? how do you deduct for a missing build sheet, if it was missing from day one?

to expound on stuart's comment, adding options would require a fake fender tag, as well. is that a concern with the white car?


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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #131 on: March 14, 2013, 12:25:29 PM »

never mind, while i was typing the reply above, the focus wandered from the car and back to owner/restorer credibility.

what options could be added to a daytona build sheet to make it more valuable? the colors and drive train of this car were already known. restamping any parts with the vin is the only thing that i can think of, and that has nothing to do with the build sheet
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
duanesterrr
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« Reply #132 on: March 14, 2013, 12:33:50 PM »

It would seem many of the "judging issues" come from irregularities in the production line.  There is no way for us 40+ years later to know what happened on the car was born.  Like mentioned above, if a car did not have a BS the day it rollled off the line how can a judge dock points for not having one?  That doesn't make sense.

My limited and otherwise worthless opinion is that a OE Gold level restoration is reached when a restorer goes above and beyond to take a car back to its original state.  This is not a level that is easily reached.  When the level is reached, cars will be deducted points for this and that.  Some are valid deductions while others are subjective.  There is no way to get around the subjective deductions... it will be part of every judging contest.  Because of this fact, I will look at all gold level cars with the same admiration.  Kudos to those who take the time/effort/cash to preserve a piece of history.  
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ECS
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« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2013, 01:07:12 PM »

You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here.  Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II.  I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect.....  It's all starting to unfold now.  I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15
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706pkvert
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« Reply #134 on: March 14, 2013, 03:18:23 PM »

 
You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here.  Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II.  I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect.....  It's all starting to unfold now.  I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15

Mr. Walden. In regards to the promo challengers, these are two seperate cars...You would realize that if you had any intelligence whatsoever. Please continue your fabricated accusations, slander and defamation of character... they are building my case nicely. In regards to the other BS items, this has already been hashed out over and over again, nothing but spun stories and lies. I refuse to battle wits with un-armed people.
Mike

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ECS
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« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2013, 03:33:22 PM »

You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here.  Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II.  I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect.....  It's all starting to unfold now.  I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15

Mr. Walden. In regards to the promo challengers, these are two seperate cars...You would realize that if you had any intelligence whatsoever. Please continue your fabricated accusations, slander and defamation of character... they are building my case nicely. In regards to the other BS items, this has already been hashed out over and over again, nothing but spun stories and lies. I refuse to battle wits with un-armed people.
Mike

Well here's what you need to do big mike.  Since you have already lied and claimed to have sent me legal papers concerning the things you state I have "lied" about, do me a HUGE favor! REALLY contact your Attorney, come after me for whatever "slander" you just referenced and lets open this can of worms up for the entire Automotive World to see.  I am ready when you are big shot! yesnod
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Davtona
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« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2013, 08:21:22 PM »

I don't make the rules/criteria on these top-level judging events, so I'm in NO position to be a judge. But, from a novices point of view I have this observation. If there is so much emphasis placed on original parts being used and/or NOS parts, wouldn't it hold true for the sheetmetal. It is one thing to replace a rusted/damaged panel with a NOS piece ( something we all strive to even find let alone actually have the luxury of using ), but it's another to be able to keep the original panel. In my eye, an original panel even trumps a NOS piece...  
Just my  Twocents

Not sure I agree completely on that. Depends on the condition of the original panel. If we are talking about an original pristine probably low mileage car. With quarter panels that have never been patched or repaired in any way and do not need any. Then I agree the original panel trumps replacing it with a NOS piece. Sad to say those cars are very far and few between unfortunately. However if that original quarter panel for example has been patched or repaired, welded or body puttied up then I would prefer the NOS panel any day. What is the advantage of having repaired/patched panel over a NOS one other than cost. A good professional job can be done on NOS quarter installation and you won't be able to tell it isn't the original quarter panel. In fact that is why so many NOS parts are required for a high level restoration. Because the assembly line correct NOS part is superior to the used original worn/refurbished part. I have never noticed any differences between assembly line sheet metal and NOS sheet metal. Now reproduction I guess I don't know about.  Twocents
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hemi68charger
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« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2013, 08:53:26 PM »

...
Not sure I agree completely on that. Depends on the condition of the original panel...

In my head, it was an implied thing... I agree, some panels are meant to be saved, some aren't...... Classic example was the humorous attempt of Mark to save the '71 'Cuda fender.........  ( if you saw the show and that episode )....... 

Sometimes all the thoughts in one's head doesn't transfer to the "reply" box... Now I know why my good buddy here locally in H-town hates texting.  lol
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Troy
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resq302
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« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2013, 09:06:12 PM »

You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here.  Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II.  I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect.....  It's all starting to unfold now.  I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15

Mr. Walden. In regards to the promo challengers, these are two seperate cars...You would realize that if you had any intelligence whatsoever. Please continue your fabricated accusations, slander and defamation of character... they are building my case nicely. In regards to the other BS items, this has already been hashed out over and over again, nothing but spun stories and lies. I refuse to battle wits with un-armed people.
Mike



Yeah Dave, its apparent that everything you do ends up being a screwed up mess!  I mean, look at all those incorrect restorations you've done.  Surely you would have gotten it right the third time around!   lol

Mike,

I would imagine that Mr. Walden is indeed intelligent and is a master of fabrication!  Look at the 4 door cuda he and his crew are making!  But I guess that could be done by just any average "Joe".  So when are you planning on fabricating something new?
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
paul jacobs
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« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2013, 09:10:39 PM »

"Take John's Redline tires on his Yellow Daytona for instance.  Cliff wrote that his tires were incorrect for a 69 Hamtramck Daytona vehicle.  I provided those tires to John.  Prior to John receiving them from me, Tony tried numerous times to purchase them for his car.  He even tried to have Steven Juliano talk me into selling them to him when Steven came up to visit me.  I told Steven I would burn them before I sold them to Tony.  I can't figure out why Tony wanted them if they were wrong?  I guess they became the "wrong" tires for a Daytona AFTER I told him that I would never sell them to him.  For the record, John and Paul Jacobs went to the Survivor tent to PROVE that those redlines were used on a 1969 Charger.  A Survivor Hamtramck 69 Charger still had the EXACT same type of original redline spare in its trunk.  Do you think the FACTS mattered to that upstanding and unbiased magazine editor?   Of course not!  He still wrote how the tires were "wrong" when they were proven to be correct!  What a fiasco. "

Dave you mean this spare Goodyear Speedway? Maybe some hot shot magazine can convince the original 70 year old owner that didn't come in his trunk!   Just to be 100% accurate this was a 69 Bee with May production date...
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paul jacobs
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« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2013, 09:12:10 PM »

Speedway


* tire 3.jpg (126.6 KB, 400x267 - viewed 299 times.)
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paul jacobs
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« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2013, 09:13:14 PM »

Date code-
funny I didn't think Speedways were issued in 69 but this sure looks like April 1969 to me!


* tire 2.jpg (139.24 KB, 500x243 - viewed 296 times.)
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resq302
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« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2013, 09:29:13 PM »

Paul,

You are obviously mistaken!   pity  Don't you know that the 70 yr old man had that fabricated just to fool you!  After all, what we read in the magazines HAS to be the truth, right?  Otherwise, they wouldn't publish lies.  Who would want to read a bunch of lies?   smilielol  That reminds me.... I gotta renew a subsciption so I have some more toilet paper. lol
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
ECS
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« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2013, 09:47:17 PM »

Date code-
funny I didn't think Speedways were issued in 69 but this sure looks like April 1969 to me!

Paul, Paul, Paul............PLEASE stop screwing up a perfectly good article, written by a clueless editor, who is diligently trying to re-write history for a couple of whiners, cry babies and sore losers.  You should know better than to use pictorial facts on this forum.  It does nothing but stop the typical, opinionated arguing dead in its tracks! rofl

Oh yeah....I almost forgot to answer your question.....YES.......that was the exact spare tire I was referring to!
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resq302
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« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2013, 09:51:52 PM »

C'mon guys..... we all know that FACTS stands for:

Fictitious
Acts
Carefully
Tricked
Subjects

remember...... just the facts!    smilielol
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
ECS
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« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2013, 10:05:57 PM »


Yeah Dave, its apparent that everything you do ends up being a screwed up mess!  I mean, look at all those incorrect restorations you've done.  Surely you would have gotten it right the third time around!   lol

Mike,
I would imagine that Mr. Walden is indeed intelligent and is a master of fabrication!  Look at the 4 door cuda he and his crew are making!  But I guess that could be done by just any average "Joe".  So when are you planning on fabricating something new?

It's sad when you have to explain that I obviously knew it was a different car.  That was the point!  ANOTHER vehicle with a shady story behind it.  Even better though, lets review a few "intelligent" OE facts:

*A HUGE Buildsheet hanging from a Show car that was used to signify an incomplete vehicle on the assembly line!?!   scratchchin

*A 1970 Window Sticker that was doctored and incorrectly displayed on a 1969 OE vehicle!?!   scratchchin

*Two wheel weights on an OE car which would have been a DMV violation for an Assembly Line Vehicle!?!   scratchchin

I could go on but just those simple things alone would have caused me to walk right past the car without a second look.  If those OBVIOUS things were screwed up, no telling what else was wrong!  Lets just put it this way Master B......I would have to have 7/8th of my brain surgically removed just to sit down and have a conversation with him at his level of intelligence.  (No smiley face inserted because I am being completely serious.)
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resq302
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« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2013, 10:10:53 PM »


Yeah Dave, its apparent that everything you do ends up being a screwed up mess!  I mean, look at all those incorrect restorations you've done.  Surely you would have gotten it right the third time around!   lol

Mike,
I would imagine that Mr. Walden is indeed intelligent and is a master of fabrication!  Look at the 4 door cuda he and his crew are making!  But I guess that could be done by just any average "Joe".  So when are you planning on fabricating something new?

It's sad when you have to explain that I obviously knew it was a different car.  That was the point!  ANOTHER vehicle with a shady story behind it.  Even better though, lets review a few "intelligent" OE facts:

*A HUGE Buildsheet hanging from a Show car that was used to signify an incomplete vehicle on the assembly line!?!   scratchchin

*A 1970 Window Sticker that was doctored and incorrectly displayed on a 1969 OE vehicle!?!   scratchchin

*Two wheel weights on an OE car which would have been a DMV violation for an Assembly Line Vehicle!?!   scratchchin

I could go on but just those simple things alone would have caused me to walk right past the car without a second look.  If those OBVIOUS things were screwed up, no telling what else was wrong!  Lets just put it this way Master B......I would have to have 7/8th of my brain surgically removed just to sit down and have a conversation with him at his level of intelligence.  (No smiley face inserted because I am being completely serious.)

With those big things, you have to wonder how it still achieved a gold?   scratchchin rotz
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
ECS
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« Reply #147 on: March 14, 2013, 10:15:22 PM »

With those big things, you have to wonder how it still achieved a gold?   scratchchin rotz

Did It? 
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resq302
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« Reply #148 on: March 14, 2013, 10:21:28 PM »

Why? has something changed?  I thought all 3 daytonas won gold at the nats?
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
Rolling_Thunder
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« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2013, 11:00:49 PM »

I would just like to say....


THIS IS WHY I BUILD RESTOMODS

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1968 Dodge Charger - 6.1L Hemi / 6-speed / 3.55 Sure Grip

2013 Dodge Challenger R/T - 5.7L Hemi / 6-speed / 3.73 Limited Slip

1964 Dodge Polara 500 - 440 / 4-speed / 3.91 Sure Grip

1973 Dodge Challenger Rallye - 340 / A-518 / 3.23 Sure Grip
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