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Author Topic: Tony's Daytona discussion  (Read 33769 times)
held1823
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« Reply #150 on: March 15, 2013, 01:02:51 AM »

You guys are concentrating on the small details with respect to what is going on here.  Take a look at one of the last posts in the link below that was listed by Dodge Bros II.  I have said all along that Engine blocks were being re-stamped, Fender Tags falsified, ect.....  It's all starting to unfold now.  I will be turning this information over to the NICB since this is the type of fraud they investigate.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=91147.15

"you guys", or at least this guy, is concentrating on the white daytona. not its owner, nor its restorer. since the white daytona isn't the focus of a thread about the white daytona, help me understand your point with the post that i quoted here. you recreated a build sheet for js27v0b100430, and then make reference to a post about js27v0b100421? (i am assuming a typo on the sixth digit, in that post). i assume your nemesis restored the first car, but you'll have to explain the significance of the second one.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #151 on: March 15, 2013, 06:22:48 AM »

I have no "nemesis" with anyone!  If it appears that way, it is they who have established that type of relationship.   Every story/link is out there explaining the situation.  There is really nothing more to explain.  2thumbs
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Just 6T9 CHGR
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« Reply #152 on: March 15, 2013, 09:47:09 AM »

Master B.... Are you on the payroll?

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Chris' '69 Charger R/T

resq302
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Whats black and white and red all over.......


« Reply #153 on: March 15, 2013, 11:11:00 AM »

Damn!  My rapper alias is out of the bag!  Now I'll have to worry about those drive by shootings that the rappers do.   Roll Eyes

Chris, if I am on the pay roll, I haven't seen a dime of it yet.   smilielol  Must be all those new taxes imposed by the government.   shruggy 

I will say this though, IF I was working for Dave, (which I am not), I sure would enjoy my job a lot more than dealing with all the scum and low lifes that we bring in at my job now.  Yes, I do like helping people at my job as it is a way of giving back to the community, however, you get to a point where all the negativity starts effecting you and it starts to come home with you.  Many a time, you have the realization that the human race is doomed to its own demise.  (again, working where I do, there really isn't any positive reinforcement or vibes unless you safe someones life, or catch the bad guy, which the majority of the time is just the most idiotic, insane calls that you can possibly think of that you wonder why people make complaints about stuff like that.)
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
held1823
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« Reply #154 on: March 15, 2013, 01:13:45 PM »

I have no "nemesis" with anyone!  If it appears that way, it is they who have established that type of relationship.   Every story/link is out there explaining the situation.  There is really nothing more to explain.  2thumbs

point me to the story/link that explains how two different challengers are entwined with a engine block alledgedly restamped by a restoration shop whose owner you are at odds with for whatever reason(s). the link that you shared above does not seem to support the allegation.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
bill440rt
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« Reply #155 on: March 15, 2013, 02:47:27 PM »

I'm honestly not seeing the correlation between AACA judging and OE-judging. Other than being points-based, it is completely apples to oranges.
I've seen cars score highly & achieve Junior/Senior/Grand National AACA status the wrong color, added or incorrect options, incorrect finishes, etc etc. Not saying it's a joke, but OE-Certification it is NOT. There is simply no comparison.

I commend all three Daytona owners on a job well done, despite the flying rumors that are out there. (I honestly don't know of all the "factual information" that's out there so I can only take some of this as flying rumors.)
Let's face it, as the NOS/mint original parts supply dries up, it's going to be harder & harder to restore these cars using 100% (or close to it) original parts.
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"Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exists and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough." Sir Henry Rolls Royce
resq302
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« Reply #156 on: March 15, 2013, 03:15:33 PM »

Bill,

You are quite right about AACA.  It is similar, but not as strict as OE judging goes.  A lot of the problem has to do with AACA having judges who might not necessarily know Mopars but know Chevelles judging an open year class for say the 60s.  The last couple of years they have started breaking down classes a little better, such as Factory Hi Perf Mopar however, that span at least 8 years or so in the category.  AACA also allows optional stuff that the dealer could have added on too which ( I am not sure) OE judging might or might not allow.  So yes, they are similar but like you said, are apples to oranges regarding how strict the stuff is and what the judges supposedly know.  One huge advantage for the Nats is that the OE judges specialize in Mopar where as AACA you could get a guy judging a Mopar who knows Mustangs inside and out.

I absolutely agree that it will be harder and harder to use original and NOS stuff the longer these cars survive.  There is no debating that.  However, if a judging program is OE then it should not give full credit for repro parts no matter how exact to originals they are.
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Brian
1969 Dodge Charger (factory 4 speed, H code 383 engine,  AACA Senior winner, 2008 Concours d'Elegance participant, 2009 Concours d'Elegance award winner)
1970 Challenger Convert. factory #'s matching red inter. w/ white body.  318 car built 9/28/69 (AACA Senior winner)
1969 Plymough GTX convertible - original sheet metal, #'s matching drivetrain, T3 Honey Bronze, 1 of 701 produced, 1 of 362 with 440 4 bbl - auto
ECS
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« Reply #157 on: March 15, 2013, 05:49:43 PM »

point me to the story/link that explains how two different challengers are entwined with a engine block alledgedly restamped by a restoration shop whose owner you are at odds with for whatever reason(s). the link that you shared above does not seem to support the allegation.

I will be happy to do so if you will please point out ONE post where I have accused any particular shop or person (specifically by their formal name) with what you are referencing.  I will state or express ANYTHING as it pertains to the facts.  That is why I have WELCOMED the threats from those individuals if they want to come after me legally!  They better be ready to open themselves up to a World of scrutiny however!  I will counter and involve EVERY individual and/or group associated with the garbage that has been occurring behind the scenes.  If they want this stopped, they need to shut their mouths, go about their business and stop lying about the efforts of myself and others.  Otherwise....lets get it on!
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held1823
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« Reply #158 on: March 15, 2013, 06:54:18 PM »

edit-

i've found all the information i need, to form an opinion regarding the e bodies. thanks for allowing me to play along.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
bill440rt
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« Reply #159 on: March 15, 2013, 07:10:17 PM »

Brian, not hijack this thread any more than it has been, but re-read my reply. The ONLY similarity I mention between AACA & OE Certification judging is that the judge sheet is points based. The buck stops there.
I'm not down-playing the AACA in any way (I'm a member too), but let's face it. ANYTHING goes. Wrong colors, incorrect finishes on parts or incorrect parts themselves, added options, anything. It is more about PRESENTATION than it is about ACCURACY. I can say that with confidence having participated in BOTH.
BOTH sides have their place. It DOES take some skill to achieve AACA awards, no doubt. But cars being shown in AACA events are not scrutinized in the way they are in OE Certification, Bloomington Gold, etc etc.

Enough with the AACA stuff already, it has no place here.
Carry on with the debate.
 popcrn
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held1823
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« Reply #160 on: March 15, 2013, 07:21:45 PM »

to return the topic to the daytona, i have a question for you concerning the build sheet that you created from hand written information supplied to you. you did not "age" the sheet and pass it off as an original as you insist has happened, but you did print it knowing that it might be incorrect. did you inadvertently help this very car achieve its oe-gold status with a questionable piece of documentation?

to put this question into perspective, you made at least one prior build sheet for mancini (the challenger convertible). according to your own statements, that sheet was also reprinted from hand written information. you are a bright man, and surely had some reservation about the correctness of what you were recreating in both instances, though obviously not enough to turn either job down. given that you already had reservations about the correctness of the challenger's build sheet, why would you do the exact same thing for the daytona?
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #161 on: March 15, 2013, 08:23:32 PM »

to return the topic to the daytona, i have a question for you concerning the build sheet that you created from hand written information supplied to you. you did not "age" the sheet and pass it off as an original as you insist has happened, but you did print it knowing that it might be incorrect. did you inadvertently help this very car achieve its oe-gold status with a questionable piece of documentation?

When I made it for Tony, it was NEVER conveyed to me that he was entering the vehicle in the OE competition.  To the contrary, he had told me that he would never subject himself to the scrutiny that he saw my cars receive following the event(s).  Ironically, it was HE that was criticizing my cars under his forum aliases.  For the record, a Broadcast Sheet is not a mandatory requirement to enter the OE competition.  It is considered "extra credit" along with any other paperwork like the Window Sticker, Invoice, Traveler Sheet, etc.....

From here forward, you should direct your questions to Tony concerning what he turned over to the OE Judges as "original paperwork".  He was responsible for the reproduction build sheet after I sent it to him.  A small handful of you have continuously tried to hold me responsible for his actions.  I've commented as much as I can regarding my part of the scenario. You need ask him why he tried to pass it off as an "original" to the OE judges, the Magazine Editors and to the forum Members here at DC.com. 
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held1823
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« Reply #162 on: March 15, 2013, 08:28:04 PM »

my question isn't for tony. it is for you. i will ask it again...


given that you already had reservations about the correctness of the challenger's build sheet, why would you do the exact same thing for the daytona?

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ernie helderbrand - 409053
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« Reply #163 on: March 15, 2013, 09:03:46 PM »

my question isn't for tony. it is for you. i will ask it again...


given that you already had reservations about the correctness of the challenger's build sheet, why would you do the exact same thing for the daytona?

I never questioned the "correctness" of the Challenger at the time I made the sheet!  I thought Mike & I were Friends, I trusted him and never suspected what eventually would occur between us.  I've never claimed to be a fortune teller!  None of this "garbage" came to the surface until AFTER both build sheets had already been made and in their possession.  If you had read previous posts, you would recall that I refused to make Tony a Window Sticker for his car after finding out what had been taking place behind the scenes.     
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held1823
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« Reply #164 on: March 15, 2013, 09:06:21 PM »

thank you. that is the answer i hoped to hear in regard to the timeline.
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ernie helderbrand - 409053
706pkvert
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« Reply #165 on: March 15, 2013, 09:10:57 PM »

He was responsible for the reproduction build sheet after I sent it to him....  A small handful of you have continuously tried to hold me responsible for his actions.  

The sheet you made for my customers challenger was for display purposes only, it was never a secret that it was a reproduction. Regardless of the intention of the reproduction sheet. No quantity of debate is going to change your assertions that it was construction for some sort of deceptive purposes.

I think it is the duty of the fake build sheet fabricator to come forth with a list of ALL the many fake, reproduction, display build sheets he has ever made so that their is no more secrecy. ECS owes it to the hobby and it is only right that the public be aware of the buildsheets you have fabricated to prevent ANY deception in the future

A separate thread should be started for the list, I'll leave it in ECS's hands to do the right thing by the hobbiests, being such a righteous and scrupulous man, I am sure he will have no problem providing the list of fakes he has made!
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ECS
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« Reply #166 on: March 15, 2013, 09:18:44 PM »

He was responsible for the reproduction build sheet after I sent it to him....  A small handful of you have continuously tried to hold me responsible for his actions.  

The sheet you made for my customers challenger was for display purposes only, it was never a secret that it was a reproduction. Regardless of the intention of the reproduction sheet. No quantity of debate is going to change your assertions that it was construction for some sort of deceptive purposes.

I think it is the duty of the fake build sheet fabricator to come forth with a list of ALL the many fake, reproduction, display build sheets he has ever made so that their is no more secrecy. ECS owes it to the hobby and it is only right that the public be aware of the buildsheets you have fabricated to prevent ANY deception in the future

A separate thread should be started for the list, I'll leave it in ECS's hands to do the right thing by the hobbiests, being such a righteous and scrupulous man, I am sure he will have no problem providing the list of fakes he has made!

I certainly understand your sentiments Mike but at this point, you and Tony are the only one's I am aware of who have taken my reproductions and made them "Fake".  Should anyone else attempt what you guys have, I can assure you that I will disclose and make those deceptive practices public.  Until that happens, your assumptions of "others" is nothing more than than speculation based on your guilt!
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Aero426
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« Reply #167 on: March 15, 2013, 09:20:48 PM »

Dave, regarding build sheets that you have printed for friends / trusted customers / future ex-friends, in the past you have hidden behind the explanation of "I have no control over how people use our products."   I find that explanation very weak.    You cannot be so naive to not realize that any build sheet you create has the potential to become "real" over time.   I really do not see how ANY customer could be trusted with a reproduction build sheet without a water mark.    This is not a window sticker.    It's THE document most often used to document a Mopar.    I do not understand why you feel the need to undermine that by printing copies that could go undetected by the masses. 

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706pkvert
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« Reply #168 on: March 15, 2013, 09:25:57 PM »

Guilt? Amazing you know so little about so much.

You should make the list public. I am sure everyone will agree, the fakes should not be hidden....future fraud could happen Dave!! Maybe not by your paying customers but perhaps 5, 10, 20 years down the road, they could be passed off as real!! You should abide by your own MOTTO you feature at the base of each of your worldy posts.
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ECS
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« Reply #169 on: March 15, 2013, 09:32:34 PM »

Dave, regarding build sheets that you have printed for friends / trusted customers / future ex-friends, in the past you have hidden behind the explanation of "I have no control over how people use our products."   I find that explanation very weak.    You cannot be so naive to not realize that any build sheet you create has the potential to become "real" over time.   I really do not see how ANY customer could be trusted with a reproduction build sheet without a water mark.    This is not a window sticker.    It's THE document most often used to document a Mopar.    I do not understand why you feel the need to undermine that by printing copies that could go undetected by the masses. 

Which is why we don't make them anymore and haven't for a long time!  Your logic is humorous at best.  We are licensed to make MANY products that people could attempt to falsify.  Our VIN Stickers, Window Stickers, Traveler Sheets, Exhaust Systems, etc.....  Using you logic, the U.S Treasury should quit making currency because there are crooks who will counterfeit their legal currency.  We are LICENSED by the manufacturers to do what we do!  You guys act as if we are some fly by night Company that is boot legging the products we manufacture.  Again, why don't you direct your sentiments to those have been PROVEN to do the very deceptive antics that you continue to critique?
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ECS
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« Reply #170 on: March 15, 2013, 09:36:37 PM »

Guilt? Amazing you know so little about so much.

You should make the list public. I am sure everyone will agree, the fakes should not be hidden....future fraud could happen Dave!! Maybe not by your paying customers but perhaps 5, 10, 20 years down the road, they could be passed off as real!! You should abide by your own MOTTO you feature at the base of each of your worldy posts.

 It's amazing how all the "honest" people who get caught, suddenly becomes so resolute about morality & ethics.  Why don't you start the process by explaining why you guys tried to pass them off as being original when they were not.  The truth shall set you free......
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706pkvert
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« Reply #171 on: March 15, 2013, 09:42:59 PM »

The truth seems to elude you....in fact my previous reponses must not be sinking in either. I never claimed the challengers buildsheet to be real. it was displayed with the car as a reproduction. I have been very honest about some of the info even being guessed at. Wake up!!
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ECS
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« Reply #172 on: March 15, 2013, 09:57:06 PM »

The truth seems to elude you....in fact my previous reponses must not be sinking in either. I never claimed the challengers buildsheet to be real. it was displayed with the car as a reproduction. I have been very honest about some of the info even being guessed at. Wake up!!

Of course Mike!  That is why my reproduction sheet (that was requested by you) ended up being pictured and listed as the "original" when the car was listed for sale on eBay.  I think I'll just continue to stay in my sleep mode and leave the "smart" stuff to guys like you.  Best of luck & take care young man!
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706pkvert
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« Reply #173 on: March 15, 2013, 10:00:07 PM »

Goes back to the sporting good stores selling bats concept Dave. I got it for a display for my customers car...... The car popped up on ebay 2 years after I delivered the car by a totally different owner than my customer. I'm to blame??
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706pkvert
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« Reply #174 on: March 15, 2013, 10:02:53 PM »

This is exactly why I feel a list should be divulged, to prevent possible frauds. You should do it. It's the best thing for the hobby! The good of the hobby is your prime goal right?
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