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Author Topic: How to do a 4 speed swap...with pictures!  (Read 120644 times)
Rolling_Thunder
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« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2018, 12:56:43 PM »

Pictures fixed...Rot in Hell Photobucket!  flame

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1968 Dodge Charger - 6.1L Hemi / 6-speed / 3.55 Sure Grip

2013 Dodge Challenger R/T - 5.7L Hemi / 6-speed / 3.73 Limited Slip

1964 Dodge Polara 500 - 440 / 4-speed / 3.91 Sure Grip

1973 Dodge Challenger Rallye - 340 / A-518 / 3.23 Sure Grip
aifilaw
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« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2018, 08:26:32 AM »

Finally getting to work on my conversion, already running into problems...
Have an 833OD that Chryco built me a long time ago. B-Body 72 Charger.
Quicktime bellhousing. Got the remaining parts I needed in a bulk package from Brewers.

Used their adapter plate for the shifter attachment at the rear of the 833 body, I don't see any other way it hooks up since it used all the bolt holes and hardware perfectly. But aside from the Reverse linkage which goes below, I'm not sure how the 1-2 and 3-4 linkage rods are going to attach without cutting the main Subframe support brace that runs across the body and the transmission mount cross member attaches too. Shouldn't have to cut that.
This is with the transmission in place behind the engine, it may be just a little low due to the cross member not there I suppose.


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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
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« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2018, 09:22:38 AM »

Used their adapter plate for the shifter attachment at the rear of the 833 body, I don't see any other way it hooks up since it used all the bolt holes and hardware perfectly. But aside from the Reverse linkage which goes below, I'm not sure how the 1-2 and 3-4 linkage rods are going to attach without cutting the main Subframe support brace that runs across the body and the transmission mount cross member attaches too. Shouldn't have to cut that.
This is with the transmission in place behind the engine, it may be just a little low due to the cross member not there I suppose.

Make sure your longest rod is correct, it may need to be flipped. The OD trans is different set up than standard, and I had the same issue on my Cuda until I looked up the correct configuration.
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aifilaw
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« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2018, 11:12:30 AM »

Appreciate it, I double-checked the gears on the ground before I slid it in place, so both the 1-2 and 3-4 rods need to be lengthened by about an inch (brewers mentioned this to me as well, which makes me wonder why they don't just make them correctly to begin with).
But regardless of orientation, they will both have to go right through the center of that cross member hat brace, and I'm not okay with cutting thru that thing, there's got to be a better way.
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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
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68 Charger R/T, 493 stroker engine, 727 auto.


« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2018, 12:12:07 PM »

I thought the part of the floor pan that is still covering the crossmember gets removed and the 1-2, 3-4 shifter rods go over the top of the crossmember and the reverse rod goes below it?
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aifilaw
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« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2018, 01:04:16 PM »

I thought the part of the floor pan that is still covering the crossmember gets removed and the 1-2, 3-4 shifter rods go over the top of the crossmember and the reverse rod goes below it?

I got an answer from Brewers an hour ago saying just that. I've got about 2" of clearance I need, that will gain me 1/16". The tranny mount is not in there, etc, so I can raise it up, and maybe that will give me just enough, but it will be close, too close for comfort because i don't want them touching or scraping during shifting or when the vehicle is bouncing around on the mounts. I need to add about 1" of length to the 1-2 and 3-4 linkages, so while I'm at it, I may have to put a bend in them to clear better and give the true clearance I need.
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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
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68 Charger R/T, 493 stroker engine, 727 auto.


« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2018, 01:22:24 PM »

I thought the part of the floor pan that is still covering the crossmember gets removed and the 1-2, 3-4 shifter rods go over the top of the crossmember and the reverse rod goes below it?

I got an answer from Brewers an hour ago saying just that. I've got about 2" of clearance I need, that will gain me 1/16". The tranny mount is not in there, etc, so I can raise it up, and maybe that will give me just enough, but it will be close, too close for comfort because i don't want them touching or scraping during shifting or when the vehicle is bouncing around on the mounts. I need to add about 1" of length to the 1-2 and 3-4 linkages, so while I'm at it, I may have to put a bend in them to clear better and give the true clearance I need.

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« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2018, 01:48:09 PM »

I thought the part of the floor pan that is still covering the crossmember gets removed and the 1-2, 3-4 shifter rods go over the top of the crossmember and the reverse rod goes below it?

I got an answer from Brewers an hour ago saying just that. I've got about 2" of clearance I need, that will gain me 1/16". The tranny mount is not in there, etc, so I can raise it up, and maybe that will give me just enough, but it will be close, too close for comfort because i don't want them touching or scraping during shifting or when the vehicle is bouncing around on the mounts. I need to add about 1" of length to the 1-2 and 3-4 linkages, so while I'm at it, I may have to put a bend in them to clear better and give the true clearance I need.
2thumbs

That is the same set up for my '70 Cuda too, reverse is under the cross member.  It clears fine.  Glad you figured it out.
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aifilaw
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« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2018, 09:48:31 AM »

Well, as you can see from the before picture, the 1-2 linkage wouldn't reach at all, the 3-4 was on about 3-4 threads and the 3-4 rod was going to be scraping on the cross-member.
I added 5/8" to the 3-4 and put a 3-5 degree bend in it. I added 1" to the 1-2 linkage, then re-blued the metal This stuff looks good now.
I'm starting to look at researching a tic-toc-tac and see if there's a complete gauge replacement, or rebuild now. I've got a regular stock clock that hasn't worked since I've owned the car. And a speedo that decided 50mph was stopped recently, and has always bounced like crazy... so need to pull the gauge cluster I guess while I'm adding the clutch and everything else down below it.... not looking forward to that, mostly because I see no youtube video's showing the best way Sad     spoiled now.


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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
aifilaw
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« Reply #84 on: August 01, 2018, 09:36:32 AM »

Pedals are in, The Brewers bracket that braces the clutch pedal was pretty simple to install. I test fit everything and got a sharpie out to mark the holes to drill in the firewall for mounting it, and realized when I did there was already two big dimples in the metal in the exact position from the factory. I guess they just got out a drill when the assembly line BoM called for a manual transmission. There was another 1/2" bolt that went into a previously unused threaded hole as well in the correct spot.
Just for others reference, once you drill out the two holes for the mounting bracket, install it with the firewall nuts only on a few threads and the other off completely. Put the dust-grommets on the clutch either side of the needle bearings and slide the rod in threaded side first of course while holding up the clutch pedal. Push it just a thread onto the lip of the next metal brace, then make sure you put in the two white plastic bushings on the brake pedal and then put that in place and continue sliding the rod through it. Will take some wiggling but it will line up. Go until the threads are through the next metal brace, screw on the nut a couple of turns.
Then put in the final bolt on the mounting bracket, tighten that all the way as well as the two firewall nuts, and finally go back and tighten down the rod nut and then re-attach the brake push rod.


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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
AKcharger
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« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2018, 03:20:32 PM »

So the overdrive has a longer tailshaft??
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aifilaw
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« Reply #86 on: August 06, 2018, 10:01:26 AM »

Chryco knows more about this topic. But I believe you are correct. Also the 3-4 has to be set in one particular direction depending on whether you want 3 to be 1:1 or 4th to be 1:1
Also may have to do with the year of the charger for the mount to the tailshaft for the shifter and the linkage. Just trying to document my installation as best I can for others who are doing a 71-74 conversion.

I've got the hump spot welded in, going to silicone it up. Got the Z-Bar mount welded to the frame rail in the driver front wheel well.

The kit came with the Z-bar mount threaded ball on a stick, two of them, and only one nut. One I'll mount to the frame rail bracket that was welded in. the other needs to screw into the Bellhousing. But this quicktime bellhousing is not threaded for it, nor is the hole big enough to just slide through.

I measured the threaded ball on stick is 9/16-12. Which is a hard nut to find, but finally found one, I'm guessing the stock bellhousing hole is threaded for this already.
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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
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« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2018, 08:58:33 AM »

Got the hump spot welded in, had some spare rustoleum and then silicone to seal it up.

The rear attachment bracket was redundant as the automatic had the same one already in place. I used that as a reference as screwed that into the plastic center console, then screwed the front bracket that came with the kit into the plastic console. Snuck in there thru the shifter hole and spot welded it. Then unscrewed the plastic and solidified that bracket.

The Z-bar ball bracket went right in place, there's a slot in the back against the frame rail is drops right into, you can't possibly screw it up once it drops in place and welded in just like the pictures from page 2 of this thread.

The Z-bar link ball was a nightmare for the quicktime bellhousing. It wouldn't have been if I could have sourced a 9/16-12 tap...
Instead I was able to find a 9/16-12 lock-nut I cut in half. Clearance was a real problem, but it's in there now.



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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
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aifilaw
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« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2018, 07:33:20 AM »

Descriptions in order on this '72 conversion from 727 to 833 OD...

I don't know how this would have gone if I had used a stock bellhousing.... but as nice as this quicktime bellhousing is, it's got it's problems as well.
Most of the hardware that it came with is useless. Allen Inset headed bolts for attaching the engine block are worthless in my opinion, so I bought some new ones. The holes in the bellhousing for the transmission are 7/16 threads and not 3/8 threads, so standard 9/16 head bolts won't fit to go from the transmission to the bellhousing, had to go buy the correct size of these as well as they didn't come with. The two bolts that attach the pivot point for the fork didn't come with it, no instructions came with it, and nothing online either. It's obviously a fairly universal bellhousing with many different threaded and unthreaded bolt holes....

Since the holes for the pivot point are blind threaded holes I had to find two nice grade 8 bolts and cut them down to a length that would fit without going into the transmission housing as seen in picture 1

Picture 2 is where the retainer clip from the fork goes through the pivot point

After 4 hours of working in the smallest space possible, because the fork won't go thru the hole with the pivot bracket in there, so have to shove fork in, then slide in pivot bracket, then attempt to screw it it. The curved edge of it makes you think it goes in with the curve fitting with the inside of the bellhousing circle, but that's backwards and the brace won't line up with the fork on the throwout bearing (too far away). The only way I was able to get it to work is slide the bracket onto the retainer clip, then slide it all in, attach it to the throwout bearing ,and then attempt to screw it in.

Picture 5 is the Z-bar installed and the clutch pedal bar hooked to it.

Picture 6 is the unused boot, since it won't fit in the quicktime bellhousing

Picture 7 is the only good news of a whole day of working on this thing. The transmission mount and crossmember is universal, just used the one that held up the 727 and everything is exactly where it should be!!!

picture 8 shows the fork, return spring, adjustment rod and Z-bar all connected and complete

Last up is putting the interior back together, The clutch appears to be working, got the starter back in, and driveshaft, etc. All that's left is putting the seat back, console back, shift boot and all the aesthetics in place. Carpet needed to be redone at some point anyways. And then I can crank her up and see if everything is working well.


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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
aifilaw
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« Reply #89 on: September 06, 2018, 08:45:26 AM »

It's a good thing when I lengthened the 1-2 and 3-4 I put a slight bend in them too. clearance is very tight with everything in place and the tranny mounted up.
I don't like how the console doesn't cover the side of the shifter base. Or how far the shifter base is to the rear, it almost touches the console when in 2nd gear. But it's okay I guess.

Still need to redo the carpet along with plenty of other interior work to be done, but it's installed.

Got a test drive in this morning and operated the clutch about a dozen times... on the last time the fork slipped out about 3/8"  out of the groove in the fork and now it won't engage. I'm guessing I just didn't have the nut adjusted down far enough to cause constant pressure and tension. Hoping I don't have to pull the transmission and I can get it back in there through the fork hole in the bellhousing.


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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
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« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2018, 01:33:35 PM »

Almost done! glad to hear you're nearing the end. why did you go with the quick time bell housing instead of the stock one?
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« Reply #91 on: September 08, 2018, 09:03:48 AM »

I had a friend who had one and was willing to get rid of it for half the price of a new one, so....

Wow, so pulled the transmission again, fork fell off because the pivot plate was incorrect. Do not try to use a 72 B-Body clutch fork with the pivot plate ont he quicktime housing that is labelled for B & E body. It puts the clutch fork in the wrong place.

There's two pivot plates that come with the quicktime housing (and no bolts as mentioned earlier). You can flip them to put the centering plate in different spots. One is stamped for B & E body...... one is stamped for A body... so I got 4 chances, and of course it worked on the last one. A body plate, with it mounted backwards from the way it's expected to be centers it perfectly on the pressure plate.

Hind-sight being 20-20, install flywheel, clutch and pressure plate with centering tool, install bellhousing. then install clutch pivot plate finger-tight, slide in clutch fork, add throwout bearing and look down the center of where the input shaft will go and eyeball it to ensure it's centered with the clutch fork on. For each one it puts it in a different place and it is significantly off in a few.
Also, getting the two bolts tightened down that hold the pivot plate inside the bellhousing requires often 1/16 flip turns with an open wrench from inside the bellhousing... the clutch fork has to be put inside the bellhousing before the pressure plate as there's no room once the pivot plate is installed to get it in from either the transmission opening or the clutch fork opening. In short... nightmare design.

Once the wife get's back I'll have help sliding the A833OD back in, then I can bolt it back up and should be done.


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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
aifilaw
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« Reply #92 on: September 08, 2018, 09:09:47 AM »

Oh.... wiring was fun. The wiring harness that comes from Brewer's that plugs into the firewall has the two pins for connecting the reverse lights. But not the brown wire for the neutral safety switch. It does have an auxiliary plug coming out of one of the reverse light's, but it is not the correct one to use.
In order to actually convert, you need to splice into the black/white stripe (the other one, not the one they spliced out of the connector for) and connect your brown wire that goes to the starter relay. You also need to take that same brown wire that was coming out of the old connector and pull the 1/4" plug pin from the old firewall connector and put it in the new connector in the same position.
If you want your neutral safety switch to work on your new clutch pedal, you need a clutch pedal switch (I saw a mounting hole for it in the metal bracket under the dash) and wire this in series with the brown wire for the old neutral safety switch.

I may do this.... may not.... when I had the clutch fork fall off due to the wrong pivot plate, I used the starter and put it in first gear to get the car moving, saved me from pushing it up into my shop 30ft.
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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
aifilaw
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« Reply #93 on: September 10, 2018, 03:04:07 PM »

And final...
cars running, clutch works, everything in place.

After talking with the nice folks at Brewers, he said the older models of the Quicktime bellhousing had the pivot plates stamped backwards. Apparently some people put some shims underneath the small pivot plate and stick with the stock adjusting rod. And some just get the A-body adjusting rod.
There's no way I'm pulling this thing apart a third time... so I'm getting the longer A-body 7-1/4" fork adjusting rod because with the shorter pivot plate, the 4" one is just not long enough to work properly and not fall out at pedal in full travel.
No need for the spring inside the vehicle on the pedal since I'm using a McL finger pressure plate.

Hopefully this will be helpful for someone who wants to do this conversion with the pictures in addition to the ones from the original thread.
If I had to do it again, I would have just bought a stock bellhousing from Brewers where I got the rest of the parts.
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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
AKcharger
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« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2019, 06:32:30 PM »

 popcrn  hows it working out??
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aifilaw
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« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2019, 02:53:27 PM »

popcrn  hows it working out??

So far, so good. love being able to cruise at highway speeds and stomp on it up into the hundreds without worrying about the high RPM's.

I only have two complaints.
1. I forgot how much transmission synchro's sucked back in the day. Going from 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd happens very slowly or I'm grinding on my way in.
2. around 2800rpm and above in 4th gear there's been a loud rattling that sounds just like engine knock, which I thought it was at first, but on further investigation seems to be coming from around the tails-shaft. I took everything apart and made sure it was all tight and locked down...same noise.
If I put slight pressure on the shifter to either side it stops, that's definitely where it's coming from, so I assume its the little plates inside the clutch rattling. It's not really shaking, so I don't think anything is really out of alignment, but enough to irritate me.
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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
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« Reply #96 on: January 30, 2019, 05:23:55 AM »

Well, if you think you may play with the shifter, this might help
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,93504.msg1064538.html#msg1064538
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aifilaw
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« Reply #97 on: January 30, 2019, 08:33:54 AM »

Well, if you think you may play with the shifter, this might help
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,93504.msg1064538.html#msg1064538

Thanks, I'm not expert on these things, but the shifter is brand new from brewers, and I used all the right shims with no play and pins, so I'm guessing it's fine and no need to rebuild. Maybe it's something in the adjustment making it a little slow getting into a couple gears, or maybe something in the transmission.
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'72 B5 Metallic Blue Hardtop
426" Wedge - Hydraulic Roller Stealth heads
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Talk less. Do more.


« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2020, 04:59:25 PM »

Damn this post is good!  cheers
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« Reply #99 on: September 07, 2020, 02:48:30 AM »

DANGIT.. Gotta read all over again. Couldn't get past Ms. Bouncy  icon_smile_big

Awesome info guys! 
I've got two 833's (one overdrive) But my vehicle that's getting it was a 5spd and NOT a true Mopar. (shhh It's a secret)
When I called Brewers, he asked me What body? and seemed to get the "here we go again" type of sigh from his end.

Going hydraulic instead of linkage also, so I might be PM'ing you guys when I get to that point.

BUT.. Did any of you guys use a dial indicator to align your bell housing?  I have two 'stock' dual bolt pattern bells.
I've heard of input shafts, pilots getting eaten up by not doing this.

Thanks
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