what do I need to know about a 440 HP rebuild?

[Charger72SE]

well last week I posted that I thought the water heater went and there was also some god-aweful noises under the hood.  Today a Mopar friend who is a mechanic came over and after turning over the car, said that it's a busted rod and/or other internal stuff.     That water pump is a sloppy, but that's now the least of my problems.

so..... I have a stock, numbers matching SE with 440HP and want to keep the engine pretty much stock.  I'm NOT a gearhead and wouldn't know where to start other than some stuff I've read.  I'd like to goose the HP up at bit since by 1972 the 440 was around 285HP at the wheels.  I'd also like to do the seals so I can burn pump gas.

- what things need to be done?
- what parts would you replace & what new parts would you recommend?
- what should I look out for?
- what range of cost am I looking at
- what else do I need to know?

I think I'll go have a beer! 

[Charger72SE]

I put up a post last weekend that I thought my water pump blew and that there were some god-awful noises from under the hood.  Well the pump went bad all right, but a rod also went!!  A friend who is a Mopar mechnic came over today and after we started up the engine he had me kill it right away.   

so my 440 HP needs a rebuild and I know very little about what needs to be done (just have read a little).  My SE is a numbers matching car so I want to keep it near stock.  Maybe goose up the HP a bit since by 1972 the HP rating was 285 at the wheels, and have it be able to run on pump gas without putting lead additive in.  The tranny is a 727 Slap Stick and my SE is basically a very nice driver.  I'm not going to race it, just blow down the Wisconsin country roads.   I want to do this once so it's good for another 35 years

I'm looking for suggestions on
- what generally needs to be replaced during a rebuild
- what pistons, cam, etc should I use
- should I keep the piston rods if they aren't broke (if it's a push rod that is busted)
- I was going to add a high volume oil pump for insurance
- what price range is a rebuild?
- what questions or directions should I give the shop (what do I need to make sure gets done?)
- what else do I need to worry about

I know this is pretty general stuff, but this is my first project and while I'm handy, I'm not a drivetrain mechanic.

thanks for your help - looks like the driving season is over for this year   

[Chryco Psycho]

you need to pull the pan & have a look to see What actual damage if any is really there then we can better assess what needs to be done

[Charger72SE]

hi Chryco Psycho - glad you're here at the new site!  you've been helping me over the last 2 years and it looks like this will be a bigger problem.  I'm assuming I should be doing this checking with the engine still in or should I be pulling the engine & tranny out first?  If I'm leaving the block in, can I pull the oil pan out as things are?  It seems tight around the cross member.   If I need to jack up the block, let me know how to do it.

thanks much, I've never done any major surgery!!

sorry all, about the 2 posts, but I didn't know my first one was moved to this section

[Chryco Psycho]

if you disconnect the center link there should be enough room to slide to oil pan out without moving the engine at all unless you have a bad mount

[Charger72SE]

I pulled off the valves covers last night and the 2nd Push Rod from the rear on the passenger side (#8) has a good 3/8" slop both up and down and back and forth. 

I guy told me that if a piston rod was busted, the engine wouldn't turn over (my 440 does turn over)  Is this true?

so tomorrow I was going to drop the oil pan and see what's up.  If it is just a bad push rod, does the engine need to be pulled to replace them?

[Chryco Psycho]

No , if the pushrod was loose the cam could have a flat lobe , try pulling the lifter out of the hole where the pushrod was loose see fi the bottom is damaged , you probably do not need to go a lot further into the engine & it can be fixed without pulling the engine out

you would have a lot more very obvious damage if a con rod broke off

[Charger72SE]

Hi Chryco,

today I removed the valve train where the push rod was loose at #8 piston
- the push rod was straight
- there wasn't any metal shavings or pieces anywhere on the cylinder head
- there must be some sort of tool to reach the lifter - I don't have anything that can reach it that far and pull it out.  Is there a tool or some trick to grab it?

I also drained the oil - it was the blackest color I have ever seen.  Is that because of the engine overheating which lead to this?
- I poured the oil through a filter to catch any debris.  All that was there was some non-metal fragments (see picture)

I also found some small fragments - also non-metallic - on the top of the driver's cyllinder head at the back (nearest to driver) 

Any ideas where these fragments could be from?

I took some pictures of the of the fragments and valve train, let me know what you think.

Should I still drop the oil pan to see if anything is there? 

thanks for your guidance on what to do next!

[Chryco Psycho]

possibly pieces of shreaded valve seals
get a strong telescoping magnet to pull the lifter out

[Charger72SE]

I'll get the magnet tomorrow and pull the lifter

should I still drop the oil pan? 

[IBsmokin]

 

[Chryco Psycho]

I'll get the magnet tomorrow and pull the lifter

should I still drop the oil pan?  

not until you fix the problem you have found

[Charger72SE]

yep, the lifter is bad - the internal spring must be busted because the top rod seat is laying down in the cylinder.  It comes up when I grap it with the magnet. (see pic)

also, the bottom of the lifter is completely flat - there is no rocking when I stand it on end on a flat surface.

the rod isn't bent at all

what do you prescribe, Dr. Chryco?

thanks again!

[Chryco Psycho]

if the cam lobe & the bottom of the lifter is OK the lifter just failed & collapsed , replace the lifter & go

[Charger72SE]

the bottom of the lifter was completely flat - they are supposed to have a rounded bottom, so I guess it is bad.  Should I check all of the lifters?

how do you check the cam lobe without removing the cam?

will bad lifters cause a lot of ugly noises?

[andy74]

yep

[Charger72SE]

well, I wanted to see the bottom end and took off the oil pan and windage tray - there are a lot of metal shavings in the pan and on the tray (see pics)  2 guys who have rebuilt engines think it's probably metal from a bearing.

I'm going to shake each piston rod to see where the slop is. The rods are all intact and seemed centered under the piston head.  The bottom of the oil pan had a lot of silvery sludge as well and smelled like something cooked in there.  The oil was the blackest I've seen.

what do you guys think?

[Chryco Psycho]

lifters should be flat on the bottom so I think you are OK there , the debris in the pan looks like a brg to me , I think you have bigger proiblems 

[cudaken]

 72 SE, boy that does not look good. But at this point drop in a new lifter and see what it sounds like than yank if sounds bad. There is a off side changes the 440 is still good, but I would not hold my breath.

Second thought, with the pan off, pull the rod caps and see what you have left of bearings. No reason at this point throwing a rod and really hurting a number matching block.

                    Cuda Ken

[Charger72SE]

yeah Cuda Ken, I'm taking caution on this - I don't want to wreck the original 440.  Good idea to check the rod bearings and rods.  Hopefully it's only a bearing and no major parts are busted.  I'll check out the lower end this week while the engine is still in the car and let you guys know what I see.

if it's a rebuild for sure that's needed I could use suggestions on replacement parts

[SeattleCharger]

 

[SeattleCharger]

     Since you are talking about rebuilding a 440 here, my motor is disassembled, got it that way when I bought my car and picked up motor later at a machine shop where the guy had taken the 440.     Anyways, I didn't get the carb and might be missing the pully wheels in photo, can I buy these somewhere like a car parts store?   or do I have to look at junkyards?        I saw this photo in the parts for sale section tonight, and realized I don't think I have these pully wheels.  

[cudaken]

 Not beeing a AC guy, I think the top you are miss part of the clutch, center miss fan and bottom nothing I can see.  See if I can post a pic of a 68, should be pretty cloes to the same.

                                     Cuda Ken

Sorry could not find it.

[SeattleCharger]

  Oh ya, the top one now I realize is the ac, don't have that anyways.  I am getting the motor rebuilt and have to buy cam, pistons, carb, and prob. a bunch of small things here and there, it is those I am wondering where to get, I am sure I will need misc. nuts and bolts and brackets, and maybe the pully wheels, was asking if these parts have to be found at a junkyard or off an old motor or can you buy this stuff at car parts stores. 

[Chryco Psycho]

the pulleys sets can be ordered from Year one & other suppliers
Summit should have most of the internal engine prts you will need