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Author Topic: STEALTH Head Update.... A "lowly" 440 Street Engine  (Read 63243 times)
Challenger340
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« on: December 08, 2013, 01:21:02 AM »

Sad statement of the times I guess ? when everybody wants a Stroker, "Bigger is Better" being the chorus from the masses, wherein a std inch 440 Engine is considered "Lowly" by many, and somehow seems lost in the irrelevant..... when answering to the question "What's it got " ?
Nonetheless,
I think they are a more than capable performer, and more than adequate for the average Street Guy, especially when you consider that this build, can easily power a B-Body Mopar into the 11's with a 4.10 Gear and 10" Convertor.....some "lowly" Engine indeed !

This is about as easy....and "basic" as it gets... to build.. what IMO, is a "decent 440". Easy on parts, Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam, good manners, and of course 91 octane pump gas.
We are targeting 500+ HP & 550 Ft/Lbs of Torque, I will of course as always, post up the final actual DYNO Sheet when completed, but first a synopsis of parts and labor operations, and a few Pics.

PARTS;
1978 440 Block, Bored .060"
ARP Main Studs
1970 440 Forged Crank
Clevitte Rod & Main Bearings
40 year old stock "ly" Connecting Rods(W/ARP Bolts)
Forged F.T. Pistons
5/64" Moly Ringpack(cheap)
Stealth Heads from 440 Source
CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam
Johnson Hylift Lifters
Performer rpm Intake Manifold
850 Holley
440 Source; Rockers Arms, Hold-Downs, etc., Pushrods, Windage Tray, Head Bolts, 6 qt HEMI Pan & Pickup, Balancer, Dipstick, CompCams 10* Ret & Locks
Melling HV Pump & drive
Cloyes T/Chain & Gears
Mopar Performance V/Covers
Speed Pro O/H Gasket Set

LABOR:
* Block Machine Package, ( add: Beam Connecting Rods & re-Harden)
* Balance Complete
* New Cylinder Head "Prep for Service"
* "Street Port" Cylinder Heads
* Port Match Intake Manifold
* Assemble Engine
* Dyno Test & Tune Engine





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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 07:26:16 AM »

interesting stuff  cheers popcrn
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Cooter
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 05:31:40 PM »

Don't know bout that bottom short block pic. That isn't the same block as the top one. Top one might be a '78 as it has the "Figure 8" cooling holes. The bottom pic is another block entirely. Looks good though.
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 06:47:29 PM »

i would love to build another 440 if i had one to start with & if it was a steel crank i would not stroke it for the build i am doing,but in my case i have a 400 block & a 383 still in the car & i like the low deck better for hood room and weight so i am doing the 4.25 stroke 4.375 bore low deck,the 440 you are building looks like a 425 hp engine to me at the most & please dont take offense to my post just my  Twocents i always enjoy your input on this web site & value what you say.

oh yea,, i REALLY like your charger!!!!!!!! 
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Challenger340
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2013, 12:38:18 AM »

Don't know bout that bottom short block pic. That isn't the same block as the top one. Top one might be a '78 as it has the "Figure 8" cooling holes. The bottom pic is another block entirely. Looks good though.

Yep, you're exactly right Cooter, SHARP Eye ya got there !
Wrong Pic, we're doing 2 of them(440's) the exact same shortblocks right now, one 1970 Block, the other a 1978, BOTH with the same parts list except for one gets the XE284H Cam,  and the other only a XE274H Cam.
 
I just took a Pic of the wrong Block ?
Here's the "correct" Pic of the 1978 Block short assembled, and the TWO together, the other(1970) Final Assembled.
Wasn't trying to mislead, just get really busy .....and I didn't distinguish between the two for "photo" purposes ?
Also, they are .060" over, NOT .040" !.... me bad !(and I ordered the damn parts)

Next up,
The Heads etc.(Stealths suck Balls !)

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Challenger340
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2013, 01:07:23 AM »

i would love to build another 440 if i had one to start with & if it was a steel crank i would not stroke it for the build i am doing,but in my case i have a 400 block & a 383 still in the car & i like the low deck better for hood room and weight so i am doing the 4.25 stroke 4.375 bore low deck,the 440 you are building looks like a 425 hp engine to me at the most & please dont take offense to my post just my  Twocents i always enjoy your input on this web site & value what you say.

oh yea,, i REALLY like your charger!!!!!!!!  

Oh no offense taken at all !
Fact is..... I can already post up Dyno Sheets on others like this, probably DOZENS over the years that we've done in the past....and they ALL break 500 hp, so it's not like I can't tell my Customers ahead of time what to expect ?

I just like to "cover my ass" by saying 500hp....
then,
when they beat 500 on the Dyno they are usually very happy !
whereas....
if it was only 496hp they would be pissed !

I'll go dig out a few similar Dyno Sheets if you want ? but the 284 usually goes 515-525hp.

And THANKS, I really like the old Charger too......but it was a real battle convincing the wife that I "needed" it, ......AFTER..... I had already bought it in a big hurry without telling her ?
Being an old fart...well...a Guy could drop dead at anytime ?....so I had to PROVE to her it was worth every penny I paid, so that if I kick off.... she would have no problem selling it !
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2013, 05:58:45 AM »

And this as an aside probably just means I'm an old guy too but I don't think of the std size 440 as lowly.  (or maybe I just encounter enough strokers around here  icon_smile_wink )
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 08:28:50 AM »

Nice prep job on the "stock" ly rods!
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Challenger340
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 10:27:23 AM »

Nice prep job on the "stock" ly rods!

Thanks Jim..... I hadn't beamed a set of rods in probably 15 years !! LOL !  and probably never will ever again ?

Probably a waste of time for 55-5600rpm engines, however, it was a good opportunity for Marty(employee) to "see" it done for training, as he had only heard about it in folklore ? .... to see & practise Flame and Surface Re-Hardening, section width selection etc. and see the time involved as to "why" it is NOT done anymore.

I didn't charge the Customer for it.....it's "training", so we just did it because to do so(charged for it), would have quickly outstripped the cost of just buying better Rods ?
I think Marty still thinks I am NUTZ.... when I tell him we used to run LY's to 65-6800rpm "back in the day".... and with waaay heavier Pistons !
Nonetheless,
it's not Almen Method Steel Shot Peening by any means ....but as training, he still gets some valuable exposure the concepts of plasticity as opposed to abrasion, surface compression, and flame hardening, which he will probably never use again.... but will apply to fatigue stress recognition he can use later.
He was pretty surprised at the Before & After "Dimple" hardness test..... ties it together for him.
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 02:52:26 PM »

Oh Well,
so much for the OOTB Stealths with our "regular" Prep for Service Job.... that didn't work out !

There were some negative Bowl & Seat Angles present we had to deal with, or try at least.
They Flowed close enough to advertised ootb(we always show lower on our Bench), but nonetheless we went ahead with a 6 hr "Prep For Service" charge on the Heads, which turned into 10 Hours ! by the time we got what we wanted (Lost my ass).
When I say a "prep for service".... what that entails is dis-assembly, check Guides, apply new Seat Angles, Grind & Back-Cut Valves, machine for better Seals(didn't do), Blend/Bowl Port and Gasket Match in past the pushrod pinch 1 inch, CC 1 each Head, Surface Heads, Wash, Lube & Assemble setting Spring Pressures for the intended Cam.
Usually, we find on the Eddy's that this is sufficient for substantial gains that we are happy with, but it  just didn't work out on this particular set of Stealths ?

For the 6 Hour Charge....we ended up spending 10 hours plus !
* We ended up doing a complete "Street Port" Job on the Stealths as best correction..... still stock port window though just "cleaned" all the way through the Port.
If we're gonna have some negative Bowl run-ups... we figured best have a Boundary layer of dead air against the wall further back in the Bowl as well.
* Flowed OK....I don't discuss Flow on the Internet..... FlowBenchs are NOT Dynomometers.... I prefer to let the 1/4 mile mph @ weight Vrs the Dyno Sheet do the talking, NOT that a FlowBench ain't a great Tool...IT IS !
* Pushrod relief for the 3/8" Pushrods ground in now ahead of installation.
* Seat Throats to 1.98", Edge of 2.14" Valve Seat Contact(Machine Cut), back-cut Valves
* Surfaced .020" to get down to 80cc's(were 83.4cc's), after new Angles applied, Intake Manifold Surfaces taken .025" to maintain bolt alignment.

Such is the Engine Business..... Best to have it leave as you want it, and EAT the time.... than NOT, and have an un-happy Customer ? especially when you Dyno everything ?
 I think next time I'll just stay with the Eddy's on our 6-8hrs, or if Stealths are wanted by the Customer I'll go the 10-12 hrs... they just seem harder to us ? That, or if maybe we'd just gone ahead initially with this plan, it would have been quicker ? knowledge for next time...we just don't see Stealths that often ?

We'll get them assembled, and then on the Engine to take a "print" before doing the Intake Port Match, which is now a "freebie" because of the extra Head Time.






 
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 03:44:21 PM »

out of the box my super stealths only flowed around 267,my bench reads low compared to most others also, an engine builder that i worked for years ago showed me a formula taking head flow with intake ,cam specs & compression to guesstimate hp ,it has  always been VERY close.  when i look at the desired hp, it tells me what i need for flow,but that is on my bench. i'm sure i'm not telling you something new. obviously you know what you are doing. just wanted to share with all.
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 06:07:56 PM »

out of the box my super stealths only flowed around 267,my bench reads low compared to most others also, an engine builder that i worked for years ago showed me a formula taking head flow with intake ,cam specs & compression to guesstimate hp ,it has  always been VERY close.  when i look at the desired hp, it tells me what i need for flow,but that is on my bench. i'm sure i'm not telling you something new. obviously you know what you are doing. just wanted to share with all.

SHARING IS GREAT... I think that's why we're here...or hope so ? Thank YOU cdr  2thumbs

There were some GREAT formula's out there even back in the day longhand... LOL !
Then on to Computers, true wave factors.... not just fill & dump... etc., Dynomation.. etc.
About the best thing we found.... or learned somewhere I forget ?... was to then start and concentrate on "area under the curve" Flow versus Cam Lobe Lift Rates vrs Piston Movement(low pressure area)...and in true Dumb-Fawk Hillbilly fashion found out what did NOT work, then stumble drunken fashion the other way to find out what did work Huh
Ever make a lazy head ?
I dunno if I am explaining this well ??
Like in the 80's when the Russians & Americans resumed talking to each other in the 80's... their space programs came up ?? the Americans vaunted their "zero gravity" Ball Point Pens they developed......the Russians, completely stunned when asked what they used .....replied.... "pencils" ??

Keep It Simple Stupid...because we are !  By "we" I mean us at our Shop ! NOT you.
Best method we found worked for us Porting Heads was to go in a FAWK IT UP.....then pretty easy to go in, weld it up...and figure out what it WILL LIKE ??
We are BUFFOONS compared to many...but we get by, so did Forrest Gump ?   
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 10:27:06 PM »

lol you sound like me,,i am from the school of hard knocks,YES i know what a lazy port is!!!! have made many  brickwall and spent lots  of time screwing up a perfectly good port.my passion is learning about the air pump we call an engine. i also think y'all know what your doing. yesnod
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2013, 01:04:07 PM »

Nice work Bob  2thumbs

The headwork looks great....this bowls sure are purty.   coolgleamA

Those are pretty high-tech compared to my old 446.....that one had the same factory rods/pistons but was swinging the Speed pro 2355 6-pack slugs that weigh several hundred grams more than those fancy forged KB's  eek  lol

I'm sure based on the headwork and cam profile your goals are easily achievable.  cheers



Ron
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2013, 06:37:41 PM »

Thanks for posting.

Why the 4032 FHR pistons?

Looks like 10.6 ish CR assuming a 0.040" compression distance.  Do you think this will work with the 274 on pump near sea level?  I'm guessing it will be real close.

Your are crazy for doing those rods.  With the anticipated service of these motors and the 200 g. reduction on the end of the rod, I would run a LY rod resized with good bolts.   Twocents

thanks again
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2013, 04:35:44 PM »

Thanks for posting.

Why the 4032 FHR pistons?

Looks like 10.6 ish CR assuming a 0.040" compression distance.  Do you think this will work with the 274 on pump near sea level?  I'm guessing it will be real close.

Your are crazy for doing those rods.  With the anticipated service of these motors and the 200 g. reduction on the end of the rod, I would run a LY rod resized with good bolts.   Twocents

thanks again


We've had good luck with the ICON stuff, IMO they have really upped their game in the last few years, and some nice features like the accumulator chamber between the lands like the KB's, true Cam & Barrel Pin Boss structure, and very consistent sizings.... plus they seem inexpensive for the quality ?
The only thing I don't like are the tru-Arc locks they use.... makes no sense to me why KB's come with spirolox.... and the more expensive FHR Forging revert back to the tru-arcs ?
WISECO Pro-Tru we like as well.... but they weren't available at the time for the 2 sets we needed.

Came in at 10.4:1 Static, about 165psi within 1,000 miles around these parts(8.0:1DCR), and if he goes to Sea level rises to ~8.45DCR
which IMO,
based on my experience.... because we get to Dyno & Tune & Jet the Engine before it leaves ?? ...Which is a BIG Difference..... I don't sweat it at all with OK quench on 91 Octane, and I have never had a problem with a 440 either in the past, even slightly above 8.5 ?
(For those following along on this build, you might be better with the XE274 Cam... to leave the Heads closer to the 83cc mark ootb if you are NOT Dyno'ing ?
The 2nd 440 represented here ....will use the XE284 with a later Intake Closing Point(less DCR)

We don't usually "Beam" Rods anymore....haven't for many years now as the time-cost outweighs buying new?.... but this was a "training" excercise for Marty(Employee) because he had never seen it done, nor Flame Hardening, Blast Surface Plasticity etc. etc.,... so we did it, and ate it time-wise .....so at least he has "seen it" for future background and reference, and I certainly have no problem with the LY Rods below 6K rpm on this type of build, especially as you said, with the lighter Forged Pistons.

I'm just sharing this for what it is.... "just our opinions", or rather.... how WE do things ? maybe it will help somebody else ?... maybe not ?... the point being.... hopefully people get some "idea's".... maybe they can use to make their own builds better ?
on another note;
I've been hanging around DC.Com for many years now..... and if there is one thing that has IMPRESSED me on here.... more than many other Websites, is that for the most part..... what a bunch of really good people there seem to be here ? devoid of the usual Internet B.S. that seems to prevail elsewhere ?
Dunno if it's the Mods ? or whatever ? nonetheless THIS SITE seems to have gotten it right ! (IMO)
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2013, 07:46:57 PM »

Thanks again.  I was referring the Icon 2618 forgings verses the 4032 FHRs.  I'm using the IC836's in my current "lowly" 440 street engine project.  So I'm curious as why the 4032s vs 2618s

I personally would try the 274 with 10.4 at 1100' ( elevation here) understanding that it would be close. But as you know, there are things you can do to help yourself out when you are near the edge.  Also,  I would be okay if I was wrong.   But for you, on the other hand, selling to a customer with unknown skills, and with likely little or no tolerance if it pings could be more bother than it is worth for a guy trying to make a buck.

Nothing against dynos, but I would be very interested in how either of these motors do in a street car at the track.
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 08:25:38 AM »

what kind of numbers do you think that motor would make without the stealth heads and with 906' s ? 470hp?
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 08:33:45 AM »

I'm thinking more along the lines of 550 hp plus. Even with that 'small' cam.
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2013, 06:20:28 PM »

Thanks again.  I was referring the Icon 2618 forgings verses the 4032 FHRs.  I'm using the IC836's in my current "lowly" 440 street engine project.  So I'm curious as why the 4032s vs 2618s

I personally would try the 274 with 10.4 at 1100' ( elevation here) understanding that it would be close. But as you know, there are things you can do to help yourself out when you are near the edge.  Also,  I would be okay if I was wrong.   But for you, on the other hand, selling to a customer with unknown skills, and with likely little or no tolerance if it pings could be more bother than it is worth for a guy trying to make a buck.

Nothing against dynos, but I would be very interested in how either of these motors do in a street car at the track.

My understanding of the difference between the 4032 vrs the 2618 Alloys is the Silicon content, the 4032 Forging being higher Silicon for added dimensional thermal stability from cold to hot and quieter running,.... the downfall being the extra silicon makes them "brittle", akin to the Hereutectic alloys in Cast Pistons so NO Nitrous or Blowers advised.
These being relatively in-expensive Street Engines(by our standards), with no boost or Steriods ever expected, full exhaust systems etc., and targeted sub-6K rpm for peak power.... the 4032's are fine in my books.

Just personal preference based on my experience, but I won't use any "DISHED" Pistons period, even one as small as the 6cc on the IC836.
The absolute BEST way to promote detonation, anywhere near the "edge" Compression wise, is put in a "dish" area.
IMO, 10.4 C.R. with a dish on the XE274 WILL definately detonate. 

The difference with being able to tune every Engine on the Dyno before it leaves... is that we can "see" what it's doing, what it wants, EGT's, A/F, Lambda, scfm, no guess work... the 10.4 C.R. with the XE274 is not an experiment for us on a Flat Top Piston, having done it many times successfully before.
I don't understand why a Customer.... having been present for the entire Dyno Day, and "seeing" for themselves what the BEST Tune was... and being supplied with THAT Data at the end of the day... that they are PAYING for... would ever digress as you say, with "Unknown Skills" and deviate from the Tune ??
Actually, it would make very little difference even being .2 C.R. lower.... if they are THAT stupid ?? because we build in a safety factor in the Final anyway.

We are lucky enough, having Dyno'd everything we do, to get to "see" the mph @ weight with customer feedback from those that go to the track.
E.T. can vary greatly due to the Car itself... but MPH attained at the Car Weight over the 1/4 mile... is a direct correlation in physics to our Dyno numbers. In that respect... the DYNO don't lie and we get justified !
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« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2013, 06:37:27 PM »

I'm thinking more along the lines of 550 hp plus. Even with that 'small' cam.

There are currently 2 NON-Stroker 440 Engines here on the go Cooter, my apologies for any confusion.
And although the Shortblocks are virtually identical, one is using the XE274 Cam, the other is using the XE284, both Hydraulic Flat Tappets.
The other difference between the 2.... is XE284 Engine has Stealth Heads with a full "Street Port" done(the Pics),
the other,
has only a true "Bowl Cleanup" and "Gasket Match" done on the Stealths with the XE274 Cam.

The problem with the 2 pairs of Stealth Heads we received, was the one set had pretty piss poor Bowls requiring MORE WORK, hence the full "Street Port" the XE284 Engine got.

No matter, we'll get to test 2 "versions" of basically the same "Shortblock". Both are atill using the same Performer RPM Intake Manifolds & 850 cfm Carbs.
My guess is the XE274 Engine will struggle to 500hp, maybe slightly more... with 540 Ft/Lbs
The XE284 Engine will post 535hp but 565 Ft/lbs.

Stay tuned... should be fun
Bob.
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2013, 06:43:52 PM »

Still though Bob, even with the lesser Stealth heads, its gotta be better flowing than a set of 'Cleaned up' iron heads right?
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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2013, 08:59:22 PM »

Thanks again.  I was referring the Icon 2618 forgings verses the 4032 FHRs.  I'm using the IC836's in my current "lowly" 440 street engine project.  So I'm curious as why the 4032s vs 2618s

I personally would try the 274 with 10.4 at 1100' ( elevation here) understanding that it would be close. But as you know, there are things you can do to help yourself out when you are near the edge.  Also,  I would be okay if I was wrong.   But for you, on the other hand, selling to a customer with unknown skills, and with likely little or no tolerance if it pings could be more bother than it is worth for a guy trying to make a buck.

Nothing against dynos, but I would be very interested in how either of these motors do in a street car at the track.

My understanding of the difference between the 4032 vrs the 2618 Alloys is the Silicon content, the 4032 Forging being higher Silicon for added dimensional thermal stability from cold to hot and quieter running,.... the downfall being the extra silicon makes them "brittle", akin to the Hereutectic alloys in Cast Pistons so NO Nitrous or Blowers advised.
These being relatively in-expensive Street Engines(by our standards), with no boost or Steriods ever expected, full exhaust systems etc., and targeted sub-6K rpm for peak power.... the 4032's are fine in my books.

Just personal preference based on my experience, but I won't use any "DISHED" Pistons period, even one as small as the 6cc on the IC836.
The absolute BEST way to promote detonation, anywhere near the "edge" Compression wise, is put in a "dish" area.
IMO, 10.4 C.R. with a dish on the XE274 WILL definately detonate.  
 

I don't see how the D shaped dish would change anything as long as the you keep a 0.040" piston to head compression distance for quench/squish.  There was just a discussion about this on another forum.  Interestingly, the majority of the racers believed that it was better to split the volume between the head and piston dish verses a flat top and larger head volume.  

I did not realize you dyno tuned every engine.  Even with that, I have yet to see an engine dyno tune also be the best in-car tune.  Usually shops don't spend a bunch of time messing with timing curve, just set total, do pulls from 3500 to 6000, make a coupe of jet changes, done.  The engine see a lot of conditions in the car that are different than sitting in a dyno cell.   And, at the end of the day, most guys will twist the knobs once it is in the car anyways....even if it was perfect.  

The statement about the dynos comes from my experience that they never compare very well from one to another.  As you state, you probably have a good correlation between your dyno results and what cars with your motors in them actually run.  But that does not help for the rest of us.  So when people talk dyno numbers, it means very little to me, and I don't mean that to offend anyone.  I've just see this all the time.  Car mph, weight and atmospheric conditions is the data that I use and put in my database so the shop to shop variability is taken out.  Heck, change the dyno inertia setting, new hp numbers.  People seem to forget what a dyno is.

FWIW, 535 hp motor, as measured on the dyno that I use for my engines, will take a 3850 lb b-body to 118 mph on a 2000 ft DA day.  If that is the same as you get, I think that is very good performance from fairly mild hydraulic 440 motor. 2thumbs

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« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2013, 01:33:10 AM »

challenger340-Bob thanks for allot of great information, your always so helpful too...  2thumbs I always enjoy reading your cylinder head, porting & engine threads/posts or responces...
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"fill your library before you fill your garage"   Budnicks
Ghoste
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2013, 09:11:18 AM »

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