My rant: SUPRA vs CHARGER

[1974dodgecharger]

So I had this discussion on facebook about the charger vs supra from YES fast and furious.  Im telling some of these tuner dudes that it costs money get the power they want from their supra and the cost invovled to get 600, 700, and the 1500HP they claim they can get in their supras.  I tell these guys the cost to their supras to 1500HP is probably 50k with lots of engine work, stroked, mods, etc..They did not believe me!!!  I was kinda shocked they said this they claim they can get 600HP by spending 25 dollars for a air filter that flows better.  Then putting in some headers gives them 100HP, and then they can turn the dial up on the boost to push 900HP as a daily driver.  Now mind you they are talking about the turbo version the single version in their MKIV vehicle.

My rebuttal was that a bigger engine will produce more HP/TQ for the same price.  In the same price of 50k of engine work/mod work etc. I told them I could get more HP/TQ from the HEMI. 

It was just fasinacting me this disucssion I had with the hundreds on facebook.  I just couldnt believe what they were saying to me so it got me fired up (in a good way of a healthy discussions) about money, speed, engine, etc. in the real world.  Then some of the stuff they spewed out was fasincationg to say at least about supras.

end rant....

[Mopar Nut]

 

I had/have owned both.

[Mike DC]

  If they could get 600 hp from a Supra by spending $600 then why haven't they done it with theirs?  Oh yeah, because they don't have one. 

Bottom line, with muscle cars you get cheap power but you sell you firstborn children to get the car into decent shape.  With imports it's the opposite. 

[Ghoste]

I'm kind of liking the line about making 600hp by adding a 25 dollar air filter.  Thats marketing at its finest.

[tan top]

let them waffle on ,  we have nothing to prove , yes they can make power , but to get 700 -1000 hp + their motors are on the ragged edge of  blowing up  . imo   all that boost , lets see them run on boost for 500 miles at Daytona or Talladega
 seriously , taking nothing away from the ricer mob & their Nagasaki nut buckets , they can  make awesome power , & they are  car guys like  us sort of ,   although reading some of their comments , and listening to  some  , they are not as knowledgeable as you would think     
 just imo to get these magical numbers ive seen quoted all over the net & heard  600 - 800 -2000 + horse
you need  thousands & thousands & thousands  of dollars ,  once you get to that kind of level ,  imo  motors only a second or two from self distructing on boost ( or spooling up is the latest buzz word for a turbo motor I think  )
  sort of like a Fuel hemi , think the latest guess is they make 10,000 hp on nitro today  , & hope they hold together under wide open throttle for 5 seconds  



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSVFVahN3Rk  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cmlvL38OSM  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzldL378J3c

 

[myk]

Doesn't matter how much power you can get out of the 'Supra; from what I understand on the LS-1 forums Supra's have a lot of trouble hooking up once they start making more power than stock.  Supra's are an awesome car though; if I had the money I would have one for sure.  IMO, they're sort of like the 2nd 'Gen Chargers of the Ricer world...

[Cooter]

While it is ok to attempt to school import dudes, I'm afraid your fighting a losing battle. Kinda like me trying to convince some here that I'm just 'misunderstood'.......
1500 hp Supra.... $75k....
$1500 hp Charger... $75k...

Supra is worth half...
Charger is worth half...
No rant needed.

[Ghoste]

Cooter, I just don't understand, what are you talking about?

[Indygenerallee]

I know that when the first F&F movie came out and the Supra was keeping up neck and neck with the Charger in the end scene I just laughed as in "no way possible" Then I found out what the Mark IV Supra could really do with a little work.. They are nice looking cars, If I won the lottery I would own a built Mark IV twin turbo 6 speed... Sad so many people have blinders on and that goes for all crowds.

[Indygenerallee]

Probably the best interior video I have ever seen of a Supra MarkIV  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02lRDvcXFsg

[Cooter]

Bottom line? Cubic dollars beats cubic inch every time. You cannot outrun money....

[Ghoste]

Yeah, not misunderstanding you now. 

[Dreamcar]

I was in high school in the mid-late 90s when the tuner scene was starting. I had two pictures of cars in my locker...A 1970 Datsun 240Z, and a 69 Charger RT. A few years ago, I bought, restored and eventually sold my 71 240Z.  I now own a 69 Charger which has always been my #1 dream car (thus my online name).

My point is that I've always respected japanese and european cars. I grew up in a mostly Nissan household. And, I realize the potential HP numbers these guys can get out of small displacement engines that are extremely reliable. The Supra, in particular, is stupid fast, even in relatively stock turbo form. Although I understand the tuner scene, the sound coming out of the back of these cars drives me nuts. I much prefer the sound of a rumbling V8. But that's just my taste.

I really don't have a point to make...but I think the Tuner vs Musclecar thing is not much different than the Mopar vs. Chevy vs Ford thing. Fans of each will always stick up for what they prefer. But, at the end of the day, we are all car guys and girls 

p.s. Where can I pick-up that $25 dollar, 100-hp boosting air filter for my wife's Honda CR-V?   

[HPP]

What I see with a lot of these guys is the same thing I saw when I was much younger and guys were doing the same thing with smog era V8s. I would call it marketing math.

If I take my base 335 horse motor, add a 25 horse air filter, 100 horse headers, 25 horse mufflers, a 50 horse carb/injectors, I now have a 535 horsepower engine. Reality is the math doesn't really add up that way.

Yes, Supra engines were engineered to take a fair amount of boost for a fair amount of time and live healthy lives. BTW, the architecture of a lot of Toyota six cylinders is based off the old chevy six bangers from the 50s. Simple rule of displacement say that similar boost levels added to a V8 would produce similar gains which would result in a total net higher output than an equivalent, but smaller displacement  6 banger.  Its just that not many guys go that route.

I also think its safe to say that anyone can squeeze double digits amounts of boost into any engine and make A pass with it. Whether it lives of not is an entirely different story. If you want 1000 horsepower for 15 seconds, that is entirely different than 1000 horses for 50,000 miles.  However, in making those arguments you often have to refer to the old adage about teaching pigs and how it often is a waste of time until they are willing to come to you for knowledge. That often doesn't happen until they grenade a few of their $500, 1000 horsepower motors.

[War wagon]

IMHO you can't compare boosted cars of any type to normally aspirated ones. Like comparing apples and oranges.
Today's technology makes power available to cars of any type or origin.

Yes a Supra can make GOOD power from a few bolt ons and turning up the boost. So can today's crop of turbo cars, only now they do it with the added benefit of AWD.
Cars like the Nissan GTR, Mitsubishi EVO, Subaru STi can be built up to destroy SUPERCARS never mind 40 yr old muscle cars. And the AWD allows those cars to accually USE that power, THINK TRACTION  on Street tires.
Go ahead and try and launch any 500-600+ hp car on pavement without the aid of trac prep and slicks. You won't be going far.....
But today's batch of cars are the evolution of the performance industry.

In forty years however I suspect few of today's cars with all their advancements will be remembered or cared for the way our old chargers and muscle cars are..
They all lack the charisma and character that these old beasts have.

A supra will NEVER demand the same level of respect and awe from the general public as a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gen charger do. The supra was a very ltd car that was wayyyy overpriced when released and not many average folks even know what they are.

[Ghoste]

Never say never.  Twenty years from now Chargers may only be remembered as the cop cars from F&F.

[myk]

I know that when the first F&F movie came out and the Supra was keeping up neck and neck with the Charger in the end scene I just laughed as in "no way possible" Then I found out what the Mark IV Supra could really do with a little work.. They are nice looking cars, If I won the lottery I would own a built Mark IV twin turbo 6 speed... Sad so many people have blinders on and that goes for all crowds.

They're really hard to find these days.  I'm told that a solid, "non" turbo version could easily go for $20K, and a turbo'd model for almost twice as much.  I've seen maybe two or three turbo cars in all of my life.  Ah well...

[bull]

You can get 1000 hp out a Supra but when it's all said and done you still have a Supra.

[Dino]

You can get 1000 hp out a Supra but when it's all said and done you still have a Supra.

Thank you!

I'll take a bone stock 2nd gen Charger over a souped up Supra any day of the week.   

[Ghoste]

Me too!!!!

[Indygenerallee]

myk, Yes I know they are hard to find and pricey.. There was a guy in our town that had one it was a non turbo automatic looked nice it had 175,000 miles on it and he wound up selling it for $13,500 about 4 years ago and I believe it was a 1995 model, I have seen many of the TT 6 speeds for around $35,000-45,000 I rank the styling right up there with the Viper GTS personally and I would take a Supra over a Viper only because I could never fit in a Viper!  ( I am 6'8 )

[Ghoste]

You could get the roadster. 

[Indygenerallee]

No I have personally had the chance to drive a Viper (I was a tech at a Dodge dealership) and my knees hit the dash before my ass hit the seat!! in both a RT/10 and GTS 

[Ghoste]

I just saw the 8 inch part now, so yeah that makes sense.  I am just under six foot and they fit me nicely so I can see where 9 inches taller would be a kneecapper.

[Indygenerallee]

Yes, it was a major letdown...

[Ponch ®]

Bottom line, with muscle cars you get cheap power but you sell you firstborn children to get the car into decent shape.  With imports it's the opposite. 

THIS.

And also keep in mind that modern cars (not just ricers) are far more tuneable (is that even a word?) than older stuff. So maybe the claims of 100HP are embellished, but it is not impossible to take a stock 5.7 HEMI (at the time the base HP was 340, 290-ish at the wheels), throw a cold air intake ($200), engine tuner ($200-ish), exhaust (varies..this particular car only had the stock resonators deleted and a set of Flow 40's) and get an extra 30-40HP out of it - all without even having physically touched the engine.

[myk]

myk, Yes I know they are hard to find and pricey.. There was a guy in our town that had one it was a non turbo automatic looked nice it had 175,000 miles on it and he wound up selling it for $13,500 about 4 years ago and I believe it was a 1995 model, I have seen many of the TT 6 speeds for around $35,000-45,000 I rank the styling right up there with the Viper GTS personally and I would take a Supra over a Viper only because I could never fit in a Viper!  ( I am 6'8 )

Another car I wish I could get my hands on is a similar-era RX-7...

[Indygenerallee]

Yeah those RX-7's are cool as well a good buddy had one with a few mods and it would scoot...

[Ponch ®]

since it seems acceptable to sing the praisers of japanese cars...an acquaintance of mine had a mid-90s turbo MR2. Motor was pretty much stock (turbo was factory) but he made a couple of suspension/exhaust upgrades. Holy crap, did that thing handle like it was on rails. Good looking car too. I know, total Ferrari F355 wannabe, but not a bad car to emulate...

*random photo from the webs*

[myk]

since it seems acceptable to sing the praisers of japanese cars...an acquaintance of mine had a mid-90s turbo MR2. Motor was pretty much stock (turbo was factory) but he made a couple of suspension/exhaust upgrades. Holy crap, did that thing handle like it was on rails. Good looking car too. I know, total Ferrari F355 wannabe, but not a bad car to emulate...

Friend of a friend has a bone-stock mid 90's MR2 turbo with everything original on it; beautiful car that runs like new, even with 175K on it...

[Baldwinvette77]

A kid told me he can beat anything i build with his supra with an "illegal mod" he did not specify the modification in question, but he seemed convinced 

[myk]

A kid told me he can beat anything i build with his supra with an "illegal mod" he did not specify the modification in question, but he seemed convinced 

Give him an equally ridiculous statement and ask him if his 'modded Supra can beat your 'modded X-wing Fighter from Star Wars...

[Indygenerallee]

 

[bull]

A kid told me he can beat anything i build with his supra with an "illegal mod" he did not specify the modification in question, but he seemed convinced 

Uh-oh. Sounds like he got his hands on a flux capacitor.

[tan top]

A kid told me he can beat anything i build with his supra with an "illegal mod" he did not specify the modification in question, but he seemed convinced 

Uh-oh. Sounds like he got his hands on a flux capacitor.

  that's funny

[Ghoste]

I was going to say that time travel is no fair but I guess thats why the mod is illegal.

[tan top]

 there are a few like this , think they are funny , sure they been posted before , but the language is not family friendly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHFkHKffRo   

worth looking though , say some funny stuff imo

[Indygenerallee]

Funny thing is that now a little over 10 years since the first F&F I don't see anymore "wing" cars   that whole scene thankfully died off quick "the wing, body kit, rims" I guess part of it is just like the old school 70's stink bug stance that those "kids" did to their musclecars back then.. Posers that could not afford to build a real race car, just like everything else it all goes in cycles, every generation has their own style.

[Cooter]

Funniest thing I've ever witnessed with rice patties, was my brother in his 69' R/T.
Dude pulls up, revs engine until it bounces on rev limiter, looks straight at my brother and says "wanna go for it?"

Without batting an eye, he [brother] looks at him and says "man, I would but I drive Old skool. It wouldn't be fair. I'd have to set you out 2 lengths at least"...

I had to laugh. Course, this was around 1998....

[1974dodgecharger]

there are a few like this , think they are funny , sure they been posted before , but the language is not family friendly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHFkHKffRo  

worth looking though , say some funny stuff imo

I clicked, now im looking at 1500hp to 2000HP supras, thanks  
also now they have 2000HP civics that are daily drivers dont know why im looking its like a car wreck when your driving by you cant help, but look. 

[Cooter]

It's ok 74, people are fascinated with the cc rich and how they spend their time/money....
Look at street outlaws.

[1974dodgecharger]

street outlaws...here I come..my OCD is kicking hard tonight 

[JB400]

A kid told me he can beat anything i build with his supra with an "illegal mod" he did not specify the modification in question, but he seemed convinced  

Probably NOS.  It's illegal to have it hooked up on the street.  The bottle can be in the car, but it can't be hooked up.  I'm sure some places won't even let you have the bottle either.

But, only babies need a bottle

[Ghoste]

I think thats only some areas where nitrous can't be hooked up on the street but you are probably right.  Dude maybe thinks he's the only knife sharp enough to run the stuff.

[Cooter]

I'll tell you this.....
Any of you drop the hammer on a 300 shot and I guarantee you will have a whole different attitude towards Nitrous.
Those who don't understand it, usually make comments like "its cheating"...but going out and buying a hugely insanely expensive supercharger set up is perfectly ok...WTF? It ROBS HP to MAKE  HP?

I used to make the same claim with idiots here....then, once in the Dart, they'd be holding onto the roll cage like it was their best friend after a pass.

[Ghoste]

There were people saying the same thing about nitromethane when it started appearing in the 50's Cooter.  Interestingly the two chemicals largely do the same thing, bring their own oxygen to the party.

[Cooter]

There were people saying the same thing about nitromethane when it started appearing in the 50's Cooter.  Interestingly the two chemicals largely do the same thing, bring their own oxygen to the party.

And like Nitrous, its still being used....

[Ghoste]

To great effect. 

[Indygenerallee]

Gotta love the NAWS haters!!  It's good stuff!!

[SRT-440]

Theres only a couple "imports" that I'd own..one being the Supra and the other a GTR.

The lovely thing about factory turbo motors is, all you have to do is turn up the boost and u really have 50+ hp. My GN has a stock motor with just a bigger turbo, tune, and alky injection (+exhaust and tune) and it's making around 450-480hp to the rear wheels...from the factory tho it put down only around 200.

So, when I'm driving my big block and pull up to a "turbo car" I don't assume anything just cuz my motor is bigger.
Luckily most imports aren't any competition in a straight line to a well built big block or small block for that matter.

As far as the movie, that supra wouldn't have ever caught the charger...mainly cuz the rubber band tires it had on it would keep it from hooking at all (if it was a real race of course).  Charger 1 - Supra 0 

[hatersaurusrex]

The lovely thing about factory turbo motors is, all you have to do is turn up the boost and u really have 50+ hp. 

Unless you have one of the "Chrysler" 2.2 non-intercooled turbos from the 80's.  Run those things on too much boost and the only thing you get is coolant in your oilpan

[SRT-440]

The lovely thing about factory turbo motors is, all you have to do is turn up the boost and u really have 50+ hp. 

Unless you have one of the "Chrysler" 2.2 non-intercooled turbos from the 80's.  Run those things on too much boost and the only thing you get is coolant in your oilpan

Lol...not all motors were created equal. However, with a big intercooler and alcohol injection even those motors would live...under resonable amount of boost of course.

[Ghoste]

They turned some impressive times.  To be fair also, they were made nearly 30 years ago so a little unfair to compare it to modern stuff.

[Cooter]

The thing with turbos and newer stuff is you get all that BS when you buy the car. ..
Try turboing a 440 Chrysler and same thing with fuel injection, you have a $1500-2000 blow through carb to buy. Along with all the turbo stuff.
I used to be a huge proponent of Nitrous Oxide because I could keep up with most hoosted cars cheaper.
However, I can now buy an HX52 turbo that will blow the crank right out of a 440 on evilbay for around $600.00....
This intriguing to say the least....

[Lord Warlock]

The supra MKIV does have a lot of potential and it performs great with mods, the F&F movies actually turned it into an instant collector car to the tuner crowd, and inflated the resale value on used ones so high that few would pay what they go for now.  The biggest problem with the tuner crowd is that they think everything added on equates to more hp, and rarely use a dyno to prove it, they used to claim stickers would make it faster, just like the honda crowd claims.  It doesn't need to have 600hp or 1000 hp to run 1/4 times that more than outpace old musclecars.  A 450hp supra would eat most chargers with big blocks.  Throughout the 90s I drove a 91 Stealth turbo, kept it stock for 9 years while i drove it daily, then at 100k miles i started modding it, should have done that sooner, would have gotten me in trouble even more than I got in previously. (got more tickets in that car than any other car i've had).  To be truthful, adding bigger turbos than stock add about 50hp but isn't a cheap add on like the tuners want you to believe, it still costs 1200-1800 bucks for the parts plus the installs/tune.  Adding full exhaust mods such as a 3" downpipe added no dropoff in boost above 4500 like the stock turbos had, could rev to 7300 and it would maintain boost at 14-21psi  without grenading the motor.  Boost controllers tend to cost about 100.00 for the cheap manual ones, the electronic ones cost 400 or so, I put a 350.00 controller on the stealth and it runs 14psi  (1 bar) and pumps out about 450hp to the wheels (AWD, all 4 wheels).  The stealth, after i made mods to it would embarrass almost any muscle care of the 60s or 70s, the problem with that car though was when you broke something, it was never a cheap fix, it always cost 1000.00 minimum, and often it would cost you 3k to 5k.  The stock motor can handle 600hp without beefing up the internals, a wimpy 3.0L v6. 

Although I didn't consider my car one of the tuner crowd, they always liked to challenge you if they saw the twin turbo badges on the side of the doors.  Never had one walk away from me, in fact I never lost a race in 9 years of driving it daily, and it ran cars that it shouldn't have won against.  I eventually just got tired of driving it, so parked it just like i did the charger before it.  Got something else and drove and modded that for a few years.  Got in the stealth to move it out of the garage to pull axles on the charger, and remembered one of the reasons I disliked it, I put in a very stiff clutch in it when i added the bigger turbos and exhaust mods, that bitch is harder to shift now than my svt cobra was, plus you sit on the ground like a go cart, i've gotten used to sitting up higher in my last few cars. 

I kept the stealth for several reasons, it has cool looks, and is as friendly to the eyes today as it was the day it rolled out, similar to the charger I kept.  It gets decent gas mileage for the performance you get out of it, I can get 26mpg and run 12 sec quarters, plus it has a top end higher than any other car i've driven.  I also kept it because it was somewhat rare that year, its one of 74 made that color in 91.  (teal blue/Napier blue).  I have to drain the gas tank, and put fresh fuel in it before i can drive it again, its been 8 years since i drove it, and 3 years since i started it.  When i get the charger on the street again, then i can start getting the stealth back on the road...just in time to sell it off, I've kept it long enough now that it is now appreciating in price finally.  Not much, and nothing like the supra has seen, but at least it isn't losing value every year anymore.