70 Daytona

[Paul 500]

I took this picture at the 2004 Mopars at the strip, at the time i didnt bother to read the sign. Does anybody know anything about the car ? (Does it claim to be the red 70 Daytona out of the 3)

[Mike DC]

               
That looks like a well-known customized Daytona clone that was built two or three years ago.  Rollcaged tube chassis, engine from a Viper or something, etc.  The builder wasn't really trying to make it look exactly like a stocker.

           

[Todd Wilson]

Heres one maybe?!?!  The purple one is about 3 hours away from me.





Todd

[hemigeno]

Heres one maybe?!?!  The purple one is about 3 hours away from me.





Todd

Todd,

Do you know anything else about that car?  To me (judging from the tail panel treatment), it looks like a '69 with door scoops added.  It is somewhat odd to see a Daytona with the wing painted in body color.  Would be interesting to know more about that one.

BTW, does Jerry still have the purple car?

[mustanghater]

That was an old show car, It also has really old strobe lights that you can see in another pic of the car. I think it has been bought since that pic was taken.

[Chris G.]

And just to put it to rest in this thread as many other threads about this, there were no factory built '70 Daytona's. The red one was exposed a year or two ago. Jerry's car is believed to be a dealer conversion when new. I'm not sure what the official result of that car was. Geno? Doug? Danny? Dave? anyone? 

[Aero426]

And just to put it to rest in this thread as many other threads about this, there were no factory built '70 Daytona's. The red one was exposed a year or two ago. Jerry's car is believed to be a dealer conversion when new. I'm not sure what the official result of that car was. Geno? Doug? Danny? Dave? anyone? 

Jerry's car is the only one with any history from new.   There is no hard evidence suggesting more than a dealer put the car together.    The green semi-custom 70 Daytona photographed at Chrysler in 1970 has yet to be found.   

[nascarxx29]

http://aerowarriors.com/70dcd.html


http://wwnboa.org/70csed.htm

[hemigeno]

And just to put it to rest in this thread as many other threads about this, there were no factory built '70 Daytona's. The red one was exposed a year or two ago. Jerry's car is believed to be a dealer conversion when new. I'm not sure what the official result of that car was. Geno? Doug? Danny? Dave? anyone? 

Jerry's car is the only one with any history from new. There is no hard evidence suggesting more than a dealer put the car together. The green semi-custom 70 Daytona photographed at Chrysler in 1970 has yet to be found.

Yeah, just to eliminate any confusion and to reiterate what Chris, Doug and Dave are saying - the '70 Daytonas are not proven to be factory cars, and are almost certainly dealer conversions or outright custom cars of the period.

[nascarxx29]

 For starters the purple daytona is XS29VOG180849. Which has no XX or follows in vin sequence with known daytonas

[dayclona]

"Food for thought"?...................Why would a "70" Daytona have been created back in the day?.............Don't think in today's hindsight,........think of the time period it self?............A "70" Daytona would  have been more expensive to build than purchasing a leftover 69,...............A dealer could do it at cost, however still an expensive deal, but why?.............they could hardly move the 69's ..........considering some 69 Daytona were "dumped" at cost ($3500+) after they langeished on the dealers lot for some time,...........also at the time in question, Daytona /500 parts weren't  simply avaiable over the counter, as standard replacment parts,.........you needed a wingcar/ 500  VIN # to procure parts, later in the mid  to late "70's" however, they were practicaly throwing the stuff  away!..........the purple 70, all facts point to a dealer conversion, the green 70?..................school's still out on that one!,...............although "we've found more photos of the green 70, (photographed indoors), still keeping "mum" about it until more leads/ info becomes available,..........still researching the B5 , 70 Daytona, which I did see in the mid "70's",.........and like a fool, I dismissed as a "put together" car!..........and to compound matters worst! disposed of the photos!
however, still persuing that car?.................................................


Mike G/ DAYCLONA

[hemigeno]

"Food for thought"?...................Why would a "70" Daytona have been created back in the day?.............Don't think in today's hindsight,........think of the time period it self?............A "70" Daytona would have been more expensive to build than purchasing a leftover 69,...............A dealer could do it at cost, however still an expensive deal, but why?.............they could hardly move the 69's ..........considering some 69 Daytona were "dumped" at cost ($3500+) after they langeished on the dealers lot for some time,...........also at the time in question, Daytona /500 parts weren't simply avaiable over the counter, as standard replacment parts,.........you needed a wingcar/ 500 VIN # to procure parts, later in the mid to late "70's" however, they were practicaly throwing the stuff away!..........the purple 70, all facts point to a dealer conversion, the green 70?..................school's still out on that one!,...............although "we've found more photos of the green 70, (photographed indoors), still keeping "mum" about it until more leads/ info becomes available,..........still researching the B5 , 70 Daytona, which I did see in the mid "70's",.........and like a fool, I dismissed as a "put together" car!..........and to compound matters worst! disposed of the photos!
however, still persuing that car?.................................................


Mike G/ DAYCLONA

The consensus opinion is that '70 Daytonas were not factory cars.  Of the four that I have heard about:

The Purple one of Jerry J. is an awesome car but a dealer conversion
The Red one from the southwest has been fairly well debunked as a hoax - see http://www.hemibill.com
The Green one that has been (nicely) replicated has never resurfaced - and if nothing else, it bears a custom paint job incorporating 1969-only F6 Green which would perhaps indicate that other customization has been done to it as well (what is or is not "factory equipment" cannot then be determined w/o finding the car and/or its original documentation)
The Blue one has slipped off the radar screen as well, and I have only seen vague references to it - most of the discussions on '70 Daytonas involve the other three cars above.

So, out of four possible '70 Daytonas, we have two negatives and not enough information about the other two to prove their heritage (but enough knowledge to question them).  Unless some real credible evidence is presented, it is doubtful that any of these cars will be viewed as much more than customized '70 Chargers, perhaps with an interesting story to go with them.

And FWIW, wing car parts were available back then.  If nothing else, there are numerous reports of nosecones, wings and other parts being sold out the back door of Creative Industries.  I have never heard of any XX VIN requirement to order parts from a dealer either.  I'd like to see some proof of that claim too.

[dayclona]

"Food for thought"?...................Why would a "70" Daytona have been created back in the day?.............Don't think in today's hindsight,........think of the time period it self?............A "70" Daytona would have been more expensive to build than purchasing a leftover 69,...............A dealer could do it at cost, however still an expensive deal, but why?.............they could hardly move the 69's ..........considering some 69 Daytona were "dumped" at cost ($3500+) after they langeished on the dealers lot for some time,...........also at the time in question, Daytona /500 parts weren't simply avaiable over the counter, as standard replacment parts,.........you needed a wingcar/ 500 VIN # to procure parts, later in the mid to late "70's" however, they were practicaly throwing the stuff away!..........the purple 70, all facts point to a dealer conversion, the green 70?..................school's still out on that one!,...............although "we've found more photos of the green 70, (photographed indoors), still keeping "mum" about it until more leads/ info becomes available,..........still researching the B5 , 70 Daytona, which I did see in the mid "70's",.........and like a fool, I dismissed as a "put together" car!..........and to compound matters worst! disposed of the photos!
however, still persuing that car?.................................................


Mike G/ DAYCLONA

The consensus opinion is that '70 Daytonas were not factory cars.  Of the four that I have heard about:

The Purple one of Jerry J. is an awesome car but a dealer conversion
The Red one from the southwest has been fairly well debunked as a hoax - see http://www.hemibill.com
The Green one that has been (nicely) replicated has never resurfaced - and if nothing else, it bears a custom paint job incorporating 1969-only F6 Green which would perhaps indicate that other customization has been done to it as well (what is or is not "factory equipment" cannot then be determined w/o finding the car and/or its original documentation)
The Blue one has slipped off the radar screen as well, and I have only seen vague references to it - most of the discussions on '70 Daytonas involve the other three cars above.

So, out of four possible '70 Daytonas, we have two negatives and not enough information about the other two to prove their heritage (but enough knowledge to question them).  Unless some real credible evidence is presented, it is doubtful that any of these cars will be viewed as much more than customized '70 Chargers, perhaps with an interesting story to go with them.

And FWIW, wing car parts were available back then.  If nothing else, there are numerous reports of nosecones, wings and other parts being sold out the back door of Creative Industries.  I have never heard of any XX VIN requirement to order parts from a dealer either.  I'd like to see some proof of that claim too.

         Gene,
         
As for the green 70, the colors are indeed F6 with Subline stripes, the belief is from studing photos, plus painting cars for the last 25 plus years, the car started life as a Sublime charger,............reverse taped, then sprayed F6, which when painting a car is a hell of a lot easier than the process that we  took in recreating it!............the green 70, interesting that it was witnessed as being parked, occasionally at the "Dodge Main" in the winter of 69/70,.....by Andy Agosta, who was then for Chrysler,  incharge of special concept/ show vehicles.( the "Dodge Main" is the Hamtrack Executive parking lot),........also being photographed in the Hamtrack holding lot, which was generaly used for concept cars, magazine roadtest cars, special handling vehicles,......the "new" photos , that we have, (black &   white, Feb 70) has the car on display with other 70 Dodge dealer offerings, A large indoor Dodge dealer display in  Detroit, Michigan,..................and if no factory involvment was "involved" in the creation of the green 70,................then the "person" who created it sure seemed involved with the factory?.........Huh?............why was a 2' X 3' color poster made of this car, with Chryslers logo/ trademark. blazenly printed on the bottom of the poster ,......... and also.hanging in the Chrysler photo studio for about 2 decades??..........(as you may or maynot know Greg Kwaitkowski has ownership of the photo/ poster to this day).............................. never say never,

Also,on the other note Gene., I didn't say parts weren't available,.............just difficult in the initial production year..............FWIW,........I have an original 1969 dealers parts replacment manual,w/ supplements,................... dealers, not bodyshop issue,...........sorry I don't have a scanner to "print",...........I'll quote the bottom of the supplement page, the same notation is on the bottom of the C500 and Daytona parts list, it says: ** Special note: VIN # must be submitted when ordering above parts**,..........................an * accompanies only C500/ Daytona part #'s, ......all the other  standard dodge/ charger parts contain no * .........or **special notations*

I would conclude the factory intended for these "replacment parts" ( which weren't plentiful,........I doubt they were being "handed" out the backdoor! ) to be put on the cars they were intended for!


I know in the late 80's when I did some Buick Grand National conversions, into GNX's.................and when I walked into quite a few dealerships,........to purchase ASC/GNX parts,..................same thing , ...........you gotta have a VIN#,.............no VIN,............no parts!.........It was a bitch just to get GNX emblems!
so what ya did was find someone with a GNX, and have them order the parts!........then reproduce them!

And if you remember Gene, I once told you my family's dealership sold AMC's from the 60's thru the 80's...........cars such as the SC / Rambler built by Hurst, the Mark Donahue Javlins, etc,........were treated the same way,.............VIN* required when ordering  parts, you could not just walk in from the street an start randomly ordering stuff?...........I know this for a fact!.....................specialty car parts were at a minimum in factory / vendor inventory due to the cost, difficulty in producing limited parts, do you think Chrysler honored the Federal mandate of 7 years of available stock for the Daytona,...................in a round about way ,......yes?................plentiful parts,.......no!

Someday you might see that 70 B5 Daytona............................never say never!




Mike G/ DAYCLONA

[hemigeno]

Mike,
I have already read a lot of what you just wrote via the articles written about that car in the last year or so.  The description of the Green car's background does exactly coincide with what I think that car is.  I view it as a customized Charger, akin to a concept car or a show car.  The RTS one-off cars in Mr. Juliano's collection are never considered factory or production cars are they?  They are all tremendous pieces of history, and the Green car would fall into that same category if the original ever surfaces.  I greatly respect all of the research that you guys have done into the Green '70's history. Nothing brought to light thus far has dissuaded me from the opinion that the car is anything but a factory-produced car.  I agree that it could be a factory sanctioned/commissioned/underwritten car, but that does not make it a production vehicle.  You have to admit that paint job would never show up as a sales code on a dealer's order form.  Your own words explain exactly what I mean:

the car started life as a Sublime charger

In technical terms, that's what the car was.  Whether or not the customization work was condoned by Chrysler or not, this is not a separate model offering by Chrysler.  It's a novelty - a curio of sorts.

I cannot actually tell what your point is, Mike - are you saying that the '70 "Daytonas" are factory production cars?  You have a tremendous uphill battle ahead of you to convince me that is the case.

As far as the availability of parts goes, you clearly implied that you could not order parts without a VIN number:

also at the time in question, Daytona /500 parts weren't simply avaiable over the counter, as standard replacment parts,.........you needed a wingcar/ 500 VIN # to procure parts

How can that statement be construed any other way?  And BTW, I have two original (not copied) November 69 Parts Division listing (Daytona Parts List), document 81-690-0867, and neither of them have any caveats about needing VINs to order parts.  Neither does the 69 (Final Revision) parts book that I have, which has all of the supplements too.  And there are definitely people who remember the Creative Industries back-door selling of parts.

Based on every fact available, '70 Daytonas were not factory cars.  If you have differing facts on this subject, lay them out.  Apart from that, everything else is speculation and arguing about such is a waste of time. 

[69_500]

Well the only on I have ever seen in person is the Purple car, and saw it first many years ago up in Michigan. Have some photo's of it from 1979. Great looking car, with a great history. I think it was a dealer conversion but still a legit car. Far different than any clone built today in my opinion.

As far as the others go, well the story is still out on those for me anyways. I think there is a chance that there was more dealership done converesions, a pretty good chance.

[Ghoste]

Plymouth dealer in my hometwon was able to order a Superbird wing for his kid to have placed on his Satellite.  Unless they used a number from someone else to get it, there were no wing cars sold in my hometown originally.

[69_500]

Didn't Dane get a 1970 Charger with a Daytona wing installed on it up in Washington? Was it new or used? I don't remember but I remember him saying that he had a regular 70 Charger with a dealer installed wing on it.

[arrow]

I worked at  Chry. dealer from 66-71 , all the aero car parts were available right out of the dealer parts book . All you had to do was get the parts man to open the parts book , find the pic and get the PN. and order what you wanted . The nose cone was available as a complete assembly or in pieces . The S Bird nose was available till early 75 , then they ran out . Alot of the smaller parts were available longer than that .

[69_500]

I've always heard many stories of people selling parts to Daytona's and 500's out of the back door of Creative Industries.

Didn't someone wind up with a big stash of bumpers from Creative or was that for the Superbirds?

[arrow]

I think the main thing that went out f the back door at creative at the time was the 69 1/2 glass Bee & RR hoods , later Creative sold off a bunch of left over areo parts and odds and ends .The story was in the DSAC news letter some time back .

[Crazy Larry]

Is it really true that there were no factory built 1970 Dodge Charger Daytona's?

I thought for Dodge to race them in NASCAR, they had to have at least 500 of them at the dealers?

How did they race them in '70 if they didn't build any?

[arrow]

  Im not up on NASCAR as well as alot of guys but I think they could run a body for 2 years ?  THE 22 Daytona ran in 70 or until 71 with a 304 CID engine and Ford used the 69 Talladega and Cyclone body for a couple years too.

[Ghoste]

Also keep in mind that a NASCAR year was a regular year and the automakers went by their model year.

[hemigeno]

I worked at  Chry. dealer from 66-71 , all the aero car parts were available right out of the dealer parts book . All you had to do was get the parts man to open the parts book , find the pic and get the PN. and order what you wanted . The nose cone was available as a complete assembly or in pieces . The S Bird nose was available till early 75 , then they ran out . Alot of the smaller parts were available longer than that .

arrow, thanks for the input, and welcome to DodgeCharger.com!!!



That must have been a great time to be working at a Chrysler Dealership - you gotta post some stories sometime - pretty please??

Is it really true that there were no factory built 1970 Dodge Charger Daytona's?

I thought for Dodge to race them in NASCAR, they had to have at least 500 of them at the dealers?

How did they race them in '70 if they didn't build any?

As arrow alluded to, the Manufacturers could race a particular body style for multiple years.  I don't remember the actual number of years exactly, but I think it was at least 3.  That made it unnecessary to produce a '70 Daytona for homologation purposes.  I might have a resource book at my office with this info that I can check next week, but Doug Schellinger might also know the exact number of years.

The only wing car that ran in NASCAR past the end of the '70 season was indeed the Mario Rossi-prepared #22 driven by Dick Brooks in the 1971 Daytona 500, with the 305cid "Lunchbox" motor (it had lots of other nicknames too).  If Pete Hamilton had not made contact with the #22, Dick could have had a chance to win - but he still finished 7th.  I remember reading that Dick said he was fine running with the other cars in the draft on the front/backstretches, but coming off the corners he gave up a lot in torque to the Big Block cars.

I am not an expert on the FoMoCo aero cars, but I don't think they would have been allowed to run in '71 with the 429cid engine.  Mr. France was fairly adamant about eliminating the one-upsmanship going on between Ford and Chrysler.  It's my own personal opinion that had the #22 car won at the '71 500 race, there would have been yet another rule change to squeeze out the wing/aero cars completely.

[Aero426]

As arrow alluded to, the Manufacturers could race a particular body style for multiple years.  I don't remember the actual number of years exactly, but I think it was at least 3.  That made it unnecessary to produce a '70 Daytona for homologation purposes.  I might have a resource book at my office with this info that I can check next week, but Doug Schellinger might also know the exact number of years.


I am not an expert on the FoMoCo aero cars, but I don't think they would have been allowed to run in '71 with the 429cid engine.  Mr. France was fairly adamant about eliminating the one-upsmanship going on between Ford and Chrysler.  It's my own personal opinion that had the #22 car won at the '71 500 race, there would have been yet another rule change to squeeze out the wing/aero cars completely.

Gene, you are correct.  It was a three year eligibility on all bodies.   The '74 Charger was granted a fourth year in NASCAR and USAC because there was no immediate replacement available.  But that is another story.

The Talladegas and Spoiler II cars were subject to the 305 cubic inch limit for 1971.  It wouldn't have been a problem plunking a Trans-Am spec Boss 302 into one of those cars, but nobody took the bait. 

For 1971, the Ford teams which were left high and dry by the factory pullout for the most part reverted back to the older 427 Tunnelport engines which got a larger restrictor than the Boss Nine.  At the time their corporate management pulled the plug, Ford did disburse roughly 13 million dollars of inventoried race parts to different teams as they saw fit, which kept them running for a while. 

After how well the #22 Daytona performed at Daytona,  Chrysler and Rossi's team were told by NASCAR "don't even think about bringing it" to the next big track race at Ontario.