Paint: Base coat/clear coat vs. single stage paint

[66FBCharger]

Why does it seem like the majority of older car owners paint or have their cars painted basecoat / clear coat instead of single stage straight color? Is base/clear cheaper, easier to spray, better results? What are the advantages and disadvantages of basecoat /clear coat versus straight color? Is straight color hard to get?
Do the old formulas translate well to the base coat clear coat paint?

[Charger-Bodie]

For me it usually depends on whether its solid or metalic color. It's easier to make metalic look right with base.

[DC_1]

Besides the fact bc/cc is easier to blend in repairs should you have a mishap down the road, clear coats typically have better reflective properties than single stage once cured. That means with proper polishing you will get a deeper reflection, ergo a shinier looking paint job.

[Charger-Bodie]

I tend do disagree on the statement about shine. If both are buffed single stage usually has more depth. Base is dull until cleared, so it only has surface shine from the clear.

[66FBCharger]

How did the factory do the metallic with single stage? Were they just lousy jobs?

[DC_1]

I tend do disagree on the statement about shine. If both are buffed single stage usually has more depth. Base is dull until cleared, so it only has surface shine from the clear.

I disagree with your disagreement..lol

Old school guy always tend to lean to old school ways as being superior. However, I would argue that if single stage could be brought to the same depth of shine and appearance as a high quality bc/cc system most, if not all, high end builders, customizers and restorers would use that method. I would say you would find very few who are not using bc/cc unless they are attempting to stay true to the original techniques of a classic era on a restoration.

[charge69]

Well, to me, I have never seen a BC/CC paint job that doesn't tend to make the car look way shinier than originally delivered.  I always expect to see lots of chrome and modifications done in at least the "restomod" fashion.  This makes for a very shiny and beautiful car but, to me, not one you would see as a daily driver or a classic restoration.

I guess I am having a hard time conveying my thoughts here but, a shiny single-stage is always an impressive paint job.

Keep in mind, on average, a BC/CC paint job will be considerably less for the paint, the supplies are the same. I probably spent 1K in supplies to ready my Charger for paint and bought 4 gallons of single-stage R6 Red for use on it.  The manager of the paint store told us he was not really supposed to sell the paint to us as it was considered industrial paint only. I don't know, it might have a little lead in it. Anyway, a middle-of-the-road quality paint ran me $600.00 and change for EACH gallon! That is almost $2500.00 in paint alone and my helper/restorer bought a $700.00 paint gun to shoot it with! Turned out pretty good! Look below!

Anyway, just me but I prefer a well-done single-stage even though a BC/CC is cheaper and usually shinier!  YMMV

[Charger-Bodie]

FYI . I'm not some " old school " hack. I've been spraying Sikkens Autowave since 2011. I'm am totally open to the latest and greatest. My opinion is based on the results that my eyes have seen.

[DC_1]

FYI . I'm not some " old school " hack. I've been spraying Sikkens Autowave since 2011. I'm am totally open to the latest and greatest. My opinion is based on the results that my eyes have seen.

Sorry, didn't mean anything by my statement.

I'm just giving my experience and opinion.-- and btw, I shot my car with 4 coats of PPG single stage that i colour sanded and buffed to an unbelievable shine. But that was done in 2003 and now I am tearing the car apart to redo everything in bc/cc.

I owned a collision shop and painted more than a 1000 cars, granted most were just panels after collision repairs but I've also done a fair bit of complete paint jobs on everything including classics and sports cars. I still think with quality materials you can't beat bc/cc for depth of shine and clarity.

But hey, that's just my opinion! 

[viper r/t]

FYI . I'm not some " old school " hack. I've been spraying Sikkens Autowave since 2011. I'm am totally open to the latest and greatest. My opinion is based on the results that my eyes have seen.

Sorry, didn't mean anything by my statement.

I'm just giving my experience and opinion.-- and btw, I shot my car with 4 coats of PPG single stage that i colour sanded and buffed to an unbelievable shine. But that was done in 2003 and now I am tearing the car apart to redo everything in bc/cc.

I owned a collision shop and painted more than a 1000 cars, granted most were just panels after collision repairs but I've also done a fair bit of complete paint jobs on everything including classics and sports cars. I still think with quality materials you can't beat bc/cc for depth of shine and clarity.

But hey, that's just my opinion! 

[green69rt]

Without claiming any knowledge of the issue this is what I've gleaned from various threads.  BC/CC vs SS outcome depends a lot on how good the prep is and how good the painter is.  Good prep is required on both and a poor painter can make a bad paint job on either.  Having said that I also have read that on semi metallic (like my intended F5 green) that BC/CC is more forgiving because you can sand/cut/buff the clear where it's not recommended that metallic be anything but buffed so unless you are really good a SS metallic might not come out well, and it's harder to correct problems on SS metallic, right??

[Canadian1968]

Sorry but BC/CC will always out perform a single stage.

I would like to know how a person can say a solid color is "deeper" in either a BC/CC job or a SS.  You can put 2 coats or 10 coats of SS its not going to make it " deeper" it will how over make it look "heavy" ! The same goes for BC , you can put 300 coats of solid base on it won't change anything . YOu have to be careful how people use the term " deep" as well. I could describe a car as being painted in a nice "deep" red , but I am talking more of the hue of the color than anything.   If you are talking about shine, lets make it simple if the paint has being cut and buffed.  Its not going to matter , because the shine you see is the result of how well the buffing process has been performed . If the paint is untouched then there are way to many variables that can happen ( painter, temperature, air movement, flash times ect.) to effect the finish of the paint, regardless of the system used.

As for metallic  you will never be able to match the depth of a BC/CC job. You are literally applying a layer between the top finish of the paint and where the base is actually sitting . You can put 3-6-8 mm of clear coat over top of the well laid down base.  The metallic will look as if its down in the metal .

You just can't achieve that appearance with a single stage. The metallic are suspended with the pigments of the color and are applied in one step. It doesn't matter how many coats you put on because you are always covering the previous layer with the layer that you just sprayed, and you metallic will always be on the surface.  Not to mention SS metallic can not be cut and polished like BC/CC. If you polish SS metallic, you will start to actually remove flakes of the metallic from the finish...

If you take Brand X premium BC/CC and Brand X premium SS, your SS will 90% of the time be the cheaper product cost.

[jaak]

Disclaimer... I am a hobbiest, I don't do body and paint for a living.

I painted my R/T with single stage urethane. I do that every now and then on solid colors. If painting metallic I always use BC/CC. BC/CC is more forgiving, and is more user friendly than single stage, I think that is a misconception, people seem to think Single stage is easier, because its a single stage, and no clear is needed. That being said I have done a few paint jobs myself, and have checked out work of others, and when done right, I have to agree with Brian, I think the best looking paint jobs I have seen are done in single stage urethane. Especially black, if I was painting my car black, I would probably use BC/CC just as a precaution (because I work out of my own workshop and Im a hobbiest) and shit happens. But if I was paying for a black paint job.... I would want it to be painted with SS Urethane.

And while on the subject of clears, let me ask you guys a question... How many coats do you guys apply. I always spray like the tech sheet says for the clear I am using. Some say 3 coats, some hi solid clears I have used says 2 full wet coats. Reason I ask I hear people brag about laying down 10-15 coats of clear... to me that seems like a waste of time and materials. Like I said I usually put on 3 coats and its plenty thick enough to cut and buff.

[oldcarnut]

Disclaimer... I am a hobbiest, I don't do body and paint for a living.

I'll fit along with the above statement but probably several notches less and more into the house garage painter.  I've sprayed SS enamel, BC/CC, and once a metallic urethane which I clear coated on  top of that.  Really had a good shine. As an amateur,  the BC/CC was the easier and most mistake forgiving for me to do.   I also was of the understanding that BC/CC systems held up better to the elements than SS and didn't fade out near as bad requiring waxing etc so often.

[cdr]

     sometimes it is VERY hard to not say what is on my mind,some people    in my opinion single stage is the only way to go with a non metal flake color.

[Troy]

I'm gonna guess that 99% of people who aren't painters can't tell the difference.

And this question comes up a LOT all over the internet. I've learned a bunch. I have several project cars that all need paint. Some are solid colors, some are metallic, and some are worth more than the others. I can't afford to send all of them to a shop that will make them perfect. If *I* were going to try painting one myself it would be single stage in a solid color - preferably a light one. Base/clear is generally more durable but newer formulations of single stage paint have the UV blockers and some have a catalyst. I believe you can clear over most if you're happy with the final result. Base/clear is typically more expensive (more stuff to buy) but good paint is more expensive overall - mainly because it has more solids (takes less to cover). Pigments cost money so more pigment = higher price. Certain colors cost more for the same reason. I've heard differing stories on metallics since you don't want to cut into them while wet sanding/buffing (but the new ones use plastic instead of aluminum for the sparkles so it's supposed to be more forgiving). But even without that, I think it's still easy for a novice to "tiger stripe" a car using metallics.

Most original formulations of paint can no longer be found as they've changed with technology and ingredient availability. Some people have been able to replicate the factory colors with a slightly different formula than the one out of the book. I have heard that this is more pronounced with base/clear.

Troy

[Brock Lee]

Metallics are most sensitive to this. There is a reason why OEM metallic finishes are not as brilliant as most aftermarket metallics. The bc/cc system allows the flakes to fall and bond in random patterns. You can help induce this by doing super light dustings on top of the fully base coated finish. Hit it from different angles. The clear coat locks them in place. Because the flakes are not weighted by a syrupy finish, making them lay down, they reflect light from more directions. Granted, OEM finishes never looked that way..but most people are after that brilliance in a modern metallic paint job.

[Andrada]

^

i always changed my spray pattern to the dot, backed off the panel a pretty good ways and lightly dusted the mistake where the metallics didnt lay right. you can do this with base and single stage paints. you have to blend it more or less.

but with single stage be real careful doing this as you can create a run or darken the area your dusting.
then its ruined.
no fixing it till the paint is completely cured and wet sanded all the way down. its best to start over if not, like i said the panel will come out darker if you spray on top of already existing paint, and lighter where there was none.
single stage will darken the more layers of paint you put on it wether metallics or not. that or make a big nasty stripe so never try to make a whole new pass to fix a spot!!
single stage either metallics or not is a one shot kinda deal. you better nail it because no matter what you try to do to fix the mistake in the end like color sanding or buffing the panel will never look the same or as good as a panel thats sprayed perfect and left alone. youll never get that original sheen back that floats to the top of all single stage paints for the luster after you sand it off! the pressure is on with single stage.

with base coat, the base is the easy part. the base dries super fast to quickly sand runs and easier to fix and blend metallics. you dont have to worry as much because any mistakes can be fixed nothings permanent yet not till you top it with clear. you can even spray layer after layer of base, color sand and block in between to really build a strong thick even flawless base. then you can do the same with the clear! i spray two good coats of clear let dry,wet block sand with super fine grit,this gets all the imperfections and any fine trash there may be out. then spray one fine mirror coat to bond on top of that. a trick of the trade those barrett jackson million dollar painters dont want you to know.

thats the depth everyone wants and describes. makes the paint look like you could jump in and swim   youll have a thick mirror finish without ugly swirl marks from the final buffing like most body shops do.
i learned on single stage as a kid, through horrible experiences.lol but once you can spray single stage like glass you can spray it all after that.

base coat clear coat was an invention made to make things easier but its acually twice as much work and your arm will be sore the next day from making several base coat passes then several clear passes! but the end result is worth it!

thats a very tough choice to have to make if your a beginner painting but want the best look for your ride. remember you can get any color from any year or model mixed as a single stage or a base!!! when i worked in a paint bank id make your color first then add additives to make it a single stage  or a base whatever you preferred. and by old paint codes with the software we had we could mix any old mopar colors base or single.

good luck!hope this helps!

[Canadian1968]

I tend do disagree on the statement about shine. If both are buffed single stage usually has more depth. Base is dull until cleared, so it only has surface shine from the clear.

Sorry this topic really interest me. 

And this comment does as well, Single stage solid color is not translucent, so whatever coat is on top is what your eye will see.  How does this create depth or better shine?  Yes base coat is dull, but you have the ability to put that layer of clear coat between it, a lot if you want ! . But once again , with a solid color this is a bit pointless?

Interesting fact I spray Sikkens Autowave MM daily as well .

[Charger-Bodie]

Single stage paint is somewhat translucent. It has translucent resin that floats to the surface when it's sprayed . This is very similar to older lacquer finishes that looked a mile deep. And if you really want a durable finish with a lot of depth cocktail clear into the single stage color.

[cdr]

Single stage paint is somewhat translucent. It has translucent resin that floats to the surface when it's sprayed . This is very similar to older lacquer finishes that looked a mile deep. And if you really want a durable finish with a lot of depth cocktail clear into the single stage color.

                                                                 

[Lord Warlock]

As a hobby painter, with about 10 years of experience painting, still count myself as amateur.  Just not afraid to grab one of the 6 paint guns I have and spray if something needs it.  

I used single stage paint on my charger, mainly because Y3 is a solid color with no metallic or flake. Never have thought the depth of the shine was that impressive when compared to a bc/cc paint job. I have no problem spraying BC's but I do seem to run into issues with clear which tends to run on me more often than single stage or Base coats. If I was planning on showing the car regularly, i'd probably go BC/CC for the added shine factor.  As it is, I still have to do one final sand and buff, last attempt got a clog in the paper and left marks on the surface that will need to be worked out.  But hey, the car got painted and it didn't cost me 10k to do the job.  

As far as coats go, I usually go with three coats of single stage, and two coats of BC, two or three coats of clear just to ensure enough depth to handle sanding and buffing afterwards.  My first coat is usually pretty light and doesn't cover completely, the second coat is usually heavy enough to cover, then a second medium to heavy coat after that and i'm usually happy with the results.

[Canadian1968]

Single stage paint is somewhat translucent. It has translucent resin that floats to the surface when it's sprayed . This is very similar to older lacquer finishes that looked a mile deep. And if you really want a durable finish with a lot of depth cocktail clear into the single stage color.

Yes there needs to be resin in order to achieve some sort of gloss / shine . But this is only one component of the single stage formula , which as a whole is not translucent . That would be like saying the hardner you add makes it translucent .

I have added clear to a single stage to help it lay down better . But again this not creating any depth perception with a solid colour it's making your finish smoother / more gloss . I still feel people are confusing depth with actual material build ( you must agree single stage is a thicker product). You can have a car that looks like it has been dipped in a big pool of paint and the paint appears to just be running off it .  To me this is a heavy look , not deep

[Charger-Bodie]

Single stage doesn't have to be sprayed so thick that it looks like cottage cheese..... You obviously don't have much experience with single stage . How can you say that a translucent ingredient won't cause depth? I suppose the second layer of 800j doesn't add depth via transparency either?

[Canadian1968]

I never said it has to be be sprayed heavy , I said that it can . Your right I have far more experience spraying base clear because that is what is used in every progressional body shop I have been in . All the painters I have worked with use single stage for fast production, because the job is finished in 2 coats no need to put it on heavy . And usually used for jamming / engine bays ect .

If I have a cup of ketchup and I put in a teaspoon of water this ketchup is now translucent ?

Yes of course your purpose made translucent MID coat is needed to created the pearl effect of a white or red tri coat paint job . You are adding layers to create depth ! Something you cannot do with do with single stage paint process .

You put a black dot and try and cover it with your MID coat . It won't happen . Tell me a single stage that has this same property . Candy coats , tri stage , other special effect coating are all done with layers to creat the physical depth that you see !  Kind of like spraying base and then a layer of clear .