Ted Stephens Daytona Wreck Under the Knife

[ws23rt]

Hi Aero's,

One day there will be 503 Daytona's back in circulation again!
As the values rise and the Aero-Folks want one at any price, they will ALL return!!!
Its happening now with registered but 'un-built' British Exotica cars, (Racing Jaguars).

If the CAR existed then the 'POWERS to BE' will allow their re-creation...

So whats their value, a re-creation, no original parts , but a correct VIN?
Maybe half that of a documented ORIGINAL-Detroit metal Daytona?
Most of US couldn't even afford one at HALF PRICE...

No silly WING/NOSE and much easier to PARK.

For me a C500 is rarer and MORE desirable anyways...

I agree that the C500 is more desirable.  But that is just my desire speaking.

IMO the changes made (for reasons other than aesthetics) to the 68-69 chargers to make the C500 are the only things that were an improvement on a great and classic piece of automotive sculpture.

I recall hearing about discussions at dodge in those days about putting a fresh air hood on the car as an option.  It was nixed because the look of proposals took too much away from a great look.

The extreme changes to make the daytona came from another motive.----Rules made in the racing community.---

Some folks like art because it looks nice. --- Collectables however have value that is moved by various things. Only one of which is looks.

[500Jon]

In just over two years time, Charger 500's will be FIFTY YEARS OLD!!!
You are sooo right in saying that the 69 Charger was and still is the finest 'ART' car to come outta of Detroit!!!
Did the 500 Mods hurt the 69 Charger?
In my opinion NO...
But some Folks say yes, you can't improve on perfection, and/or GILD the LILY!

If the C500 had beeen successful, then the Daytona's would not have beeen built, then the Superbird may not have beeen built either??
Would Petty have come back to Plymouth in a 70 Roadrunner, even less Aero than the 69... I think NOT!!!

But what has Dodge got to offer now...
It don't matter to me as for nearly FIFTY years I've enjoyed the most beautiful CAR on the Planet! (C500 not Daytona).

God Bless AMERICA
This Limey sure thanks you Guys and Gals for making my life a whole lot more fun with a MOPAR.

Win on a Sunday, buy one, then 'Terrorise the Tarmac' the rest of the week.

[RCCDrew]

The classic Ship of Theseus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[ksquared]

The classic Ship of Theseus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Wow, I am totally outclassed!!  A truly excellent link from RCCDrew, very interesting reading.

I thought I was doing good by to trying to shed a bit more light on the somewhat unusual "Gild the Lily" saying!  Still, when is the last time Shakespeare has been mentioned on this forum?  But Plutarch, Heraclitus and of course Aristotle still probably trumps Shakespeare. 

But some Folks say yes, you can't improve on perfection, and/or GILD the LILY!

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/gild-the-lily.html

[jonw29]

Why would AMD want to show off how crappy the sheet metal fits, where you gotta cut & splice & re weld everything to make it fit right?

That part will be edited out of course.

[crj1968]

The classic Ship of Theseus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

indeed....

Several variants are known, including the grandfather's axe, which has had both head and handle replaced.   

[ksquared]

The classic Ship of Theseus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

indeed....

Several variants are known, including the grandfather's axe, which has had both head and handle replaced.   

Another variant is George Washington's ax.  The key detail of course is that only one part was replaced at a time.    First the handle, then the head, then the handle, then the head, etc. 

[RallyeMike]

If all the hacked off metal is piled up together such that the pile is more metal by weight than the original car, which is the original car? The car or the pile of metal?

The car is much more than the sum of its individual physical components.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Why would AMD want to show off how crappy the sheet metal fits, where you gotta cut & splice & re weld everything to make it fit right?

Amen

I mean we even had to cut and shrink to remake the passengers side marker hole as it was crooked. C scallops on door skin was 2 inches longer than original doors, dutchmen panel to quarter fit was a joke same with the window corners.

My 70 parts were bought off the 1st release of AMD metal back ~2010 ish

[DAY CLONA]

Why would AMD want to show off how crappy the sheet metal fits, where you gotta cut & splice & re weld everything to make it fit right?

Amen

I mean we even had to cut and shrink to remake the passengers side marker hole as it was crooked. C scallops on door skin was 2 inches longer than original doors, dutchmen panel to quarter fit was a joke same with the window corners.

My 70 parts were bought off the 1st release of AMD metal back ~2010 ish

I'll agree with you on the side marker issues, this is a problem on many of their skins, not just Charger, or other B body panels, but because it's a secondary operation and the panel/die/stamp orientation of the marker light depression probably is reliant on operator set up, you find the same issue on some factory NOS skins as well...as far as the door scallops being more defined and 2" longer, they IMHO actual look better than the originals!, unless your doing a 70 R/T side scoop there's really no issues unless your fanatical about a side by side comparison of repro vs original, I've done a few of the AMD dutchmans, usually because they owner has thrown in the towel over frustration trying it themselves, claiming it needs to be "hacked/cut/welded/etc" to fit, often just a small amount of dolling/hammer and some shrinker/expander and the panel fits nicely without the "needed cut and hack" that most backyard and inexperienced bodyman seem to think the panels need...

Regardless of the "minor" inconveniences that some of the AMD panels have, 1 its better than looking for non-existent overpriced NOS or clean original take offs, 2 having to fabricate your own panels from a sheet of steel, or 3 "frankensteining" your car with a plethora of patches/patch panels and stitchwelds, AMD is your saving grace, for those that have been in the hobby 30-40 years knowing when NOTHING was available for vintage Mopars, EVEN NOS, or clean ORIGINAL, I'll deal with the trivial needs to have a full qtr panel or door skin/shell, or fender,etc, from AMD any day of the week


Mike  

[fizz]

Look at a picture of yourself 40 years difference, if you are old enough. Even though you may not even be recognizable from your younger self, Are you still you? You still have the same social security number and birth certificate saying you are.

[hemi-hampton]

When I restored a 69 roadrunner a few years back, they, AMD just came out with 69 Roadrunner Fenders. Owner said what do you think about that. I said I rather drive to Stephens performance in Alabama & pick up 2 used ones then AMD. And I did. Only got 1 though as the other one was a 69 with 68 headlight bucket welded in so passed on that one, Ended making my own patch for Rusty original. They both fit like a glove when I installed them. Soon after I hear people complain the AMD's fit like crap & they do, I seen them. I've been restoring cars since 1984, long before any aftermarket was around. Only aftermarket around then was a new company called Sherman & Associates. LEON.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Why would AMD want to show off how crappy the sheet metal fits, where you gotta cut & splice & re weld everything to make it fit right?

Amen

I mean we even had to cut and shrink to remake the passengers side marker hole as it was crooked. C scallops on door skin was 2 inches longer than original doors, dutchmen panel to quarter fit was a joke same with the window corners.

My 70 parts were bought off the 1st release of AMD metal back ~2010 ish

I'll agree with you on the side marker issues, this is a problem on many of their skins, not just Charger, or other B body panels, but because it's a secondary operation and the panel/die/stamp orientation of the marker light depression probably is reliant on operator set up, you find the same issue on some factory NOS skins as well...as far as the door scallops being more defined and 2" longer, they IMHO actual look better than the originals!, unless your doing a 70 R/T side scoop there's really no issues unless your fanatical about a side by side comparison of repro vs original, I've done a few of the AMD dutchmans, usually because they owner has thrown in the towel over frustration trying it themselves, claiming it needs to be "hacked/cut/welded/etc" to fit, often just a small amount of dolling/hammer and some shrinker/expander and the panel fits nicely without the "needed cut and hack" that most backyard and inexperienced bodyman seem to think the panels need...

Regardless of the "minor" inconveniences that some of the AMD panels have, 1 its better than looking for non-existent overpriced NOS or clean original take offs, 2 having to fabricate your own panels from a sheet of steel, or 3 "frankensteining" your car with a plethora of patches/patch panels and stitchwelds, AMD is your saving grace, for those that have been in the hobby 30-40 years knowing when NOTHING was available for vintage Mopars, EVEN NOS, or clean ORIGINAL, I'll deal with the trivial needs to have a full qtr panel or door skin/shell, or fender,etc, from AMD any day of the week


Mike  

Yes it's an RT so the scallop stuck out past the scoop.wasnt the end of the world but for $400 I expected better.

You mean you never had any fitment issues with the rear window trim where the Dutchmen meets the quarter panel in the bottom corners?

[DAY CLONA]

When I restored a 69 roadrunner a few years back, they, AMD just came out with 69 Roadrunner Fenders. Owner said what do you think about that. I said I rather drive to Stephens performance in Alabama & pick up 2 used ones then AMD. And I did. Only got 1 though as the other one was a 69 with 68 headlight bucket welded in so passed on that one, Ended making my own patch for Rusty original. They both fit like a glove when I installed them. Soon after I hear people complain the AMD's fit like crap & they do, I seen them. I've been restoring cars since 1984, long before any aftermarket was around. Only aftermarket around then was a new company called Sherman & Associates. LEON.

The owner of this car 69A12 bought all the AMD panels available at the time, spent months trying to hang and align then, swore up and down they were junk, wanted to resort to fixing all the old junk taken off, this car was at a licensed bodyshop when I was contacted to "assist" (I end up doing the whole car) in hanging the sheetmetal, only took about 6hrs for me to initially hang the full AMD qtrs, dutchman, trunk extensions, yet 3 guys tried for months, both doors took about 3 hrs, the front end sheetmetal took about 4 hrs to hang and align, I spent about a month (AFTER WORKING 10-12 hrs at my day job), priming and blocking, and painting at night after hours in their shop, the AMD panels only required a few coats of primer to straighten, yes the rear marker lights required rework (trivial) but all the other panels fit as good if not BETTER than factory, meanwhile I had 3 boobs (skilled bodyman) watching me everyday for a month "questioning" my techniques, when all they could do all day was fuck up a spoon fed lunch

[DAY CLONA]

Yes it's an RT so the scallop stuck out past the scoop.wasnt the end of the world but for $400 I expected better.

You mean you never had any fitment issues with the rear window trim where the Dutchmen meets the quarter panel in the bottom corners?

I'll agree with you, the dutchman panel is too flat, and sometimes the matching window radius in the sail panel isn't as needed, and I've seen some guys work (usually after paint) where the fit of the trim and gap are horrible, but a little work with a hammer and dolly, a shrinker/expander will work wonders, but common sense not necessarily experience would dictate multiple fittings and having on hand ALL components that will be assemble later to be test fitted before final weld/bodywork

here's an example of poor workmanship in not test fitting components BEFORE paint (GYC) 

[charger_fan_4ever]

Yes it's an RT so the scallop stuck out past the scoop.wasnt the end of the world but for $400 I expected better.

You mean you never had any fitment issues with the rear window trim where the Dutchmen meets the quarter panel in the bottom corners?

I'll agree with you, the dutchman panel is too flat, and sometimes the matching window radius in the sail panel isn't as needed, and I've seen some guys work (usually after paint) where the fit of the trim and gap are horrible, but a little work with a hammer and dolly, a shrinker/expander will work wonders, but common sense not necessarily experience would dictate multiple fittings and having on hand ALL components that will be assemble later to be test fitted before final weld/bodywork

here's an example of poor workmanship in not test fitting components BEFORE paint (GYC)  

Yikes I would expect that from someone in their backyard shop, but not these big names.Can't imagine sending something out like that.

[hemi-hampton]

When I restored a 69 roadrunner a few years back, they, AMD just came out with 69 Roadrunner Fenders. Owner said what do you think about that. I said I rather drive to Stephens performance in Alabama & pick up 2 used ones then AMD. And I did. Only got 1 though as the other one was a 69 with 68 headlight bucket welded in so passed on that one, Ended making my own patch for Rusty original. They both fit like a glove when I installed them. Soon after I hear people complain the AMD's fit like crap & they do, I seen them. I've been restoring cars since 1984, long before any aftermarket was around. Only aftermarket around then was a new company called Sherman & Associates. LEON.

The owner of this car 69A12 bought all the AMD panels available at the time, spent months trying to hang and align then, swore up and down they were junk, wanted to resort to fixing all the old junk taken off, this car was at a licensed bodyshop when I was contacted to "assist" (I end up doing the whole car) in hanging the sheetmetal, only took about 6hrs for me to initially hang the full AMD qtrs, dutchman, trunk extensions, yet 3 guys tried for months, both doors took about 3 hrs, the front end sheetmetal took about 4 hrs to hang and align, I spent about a month (AFTER WORKING 10-12 hrs at my day job), priming and blocking, and painting at night after hours in their shop, the AMD panels only required a few coats of primer to straighten, yes the rear marker lights required rework (trivial) but all the other panels fit as good if not BETTER than factory, meanwhile I had 3 boobs (skilled bodyman) watching me everyday for a month "questioning" my techniques, when all they could do all day was fuck up a spoon fed lunch

I got pics of factory & aftermarket that show they are just made wrong. I got brackets welded 1/2" to low & are 1/2" to wide. You cant hammer & dolly a 1/2 off a thick metal brackett. LEON.

[500Jon]

''Triggers Broom'' indeed!
If you guys get any time off from fixing your lovely Mopars, watch a few episodes of the Limey SitCom '' only FOOLS and HORSES ''.

There is no real point in discussing the rights and wrongs of RESTO!
You either agree with it or you are not a car GUY!!!
If you weren't fortunate enough to get a Daytona in the first ten years , then you probably got a ''BASKET CASE'' now.

If you bust your YARD-BROOM, do you fix it or but another?
Some Folks take the trouble to repair them and they SURVIVE, like 'TRIGG'S BROOM''.
Land-Fill is full of DEAD MOPARS, WHILST some Folks took the trouble to look after them.
Some Folks put a tarp over them and hoped one day they will get around to restoring their 'pride and joy' (worst thing to do).

As we all know RESTO is DEAR and time consuming...
HATS OF TO THOSE WHO TAKE THE TIME AND TROUBLE TO DO IT!!!
Without them, all we would have is grainy pictures of the GLORY DAYS...

If I found a wrecked Daytona in a ditch, cave, barn, outhouse, I would be the happiest guy on the PLANET!!!

I don't care what you GUYS think I should do with it, it would be my CAR, NOT YOURS...

Look at the window, ''ITS A SIGN'' from the God of MOPARS!!!

[DAY CLONA]

When I restored a 69 roadrunner a few years back, they, AMD just came out with 69 Roadrunner Fenders. Owner said what do you think about that. I said I rather drive to Stephens performance in Alabama & pick up 2 used ones then AMD. And I did. Only got 1 though as the other one was a 69 with 68 headlight bucket welded in so passed on that one, Ended making my own patch for Rusty original. They both fit like a glove when I installed them. Soon after I hear people complain the AMD's fit like crap & they do, I seen them. I've been restoring cars since 1984, long before any aftermarket was around. Only aftermarket around then was a new company called Sherman & Associates. LEON.

The owner of this car 69A12 bought all the AMD panels available at the time, spent months trying to hang and align then, swore up and down they were junk, wanted to resort to fixing all the old junk taken off, this car was at a licensed bodyshop when I was contacted to "assist" (I end up doing the whole car) in hanging the sheetmetal, only took about 6hrs for me to initially hang the full AMD qtrs, dutchman, trunk extensions, yet 3 guys tried for months, both doors took about 3 hrs, the front end sheetmetal took about 4 hrs to hang and align, I spent about a month (AFTER WORKING 10-12 hrs at my day job), priming and blocking, and painting at night after hours in their shop, the AMD panels only required a few coats of primer to straighten, yes the rear marker lights required rework (trivial) but all the other panels fit as good if not BETTER than factory, meanwhile I had 3 boobs (skilled bodyman) watching me everyday for a month "questioning" my techniques, when all they could do all day was fuck up a spoon fed lunch

I got pics of factory & aftermarket that show they are just made wrong. I got brackets welded 1/2" to low & are 1/2" to wide. You cant hammer & dolly a 1/2 off a thick metal brackett. LEON.

No you can't, but you can trim a 1/2" off, and you can relocate a bracket 1/2" higher, a lot of guys I guess are under the impression you just open the box and the AMD part installs itself?...I've seen guys trying to install original used replacement fenders, hoods, trunks, or doors and still FUBAR the install, in fact sometimes even the original parts they took off their own car! we could go on all day with senarios....the bottom line is, right or wrong, at least there's a part AVAILABLE, I plied my early bodyman days in a shop where we were "forced" to handcraft entire panels or repair sections from raw steel stock, esp for antique vehicles where nothing existed, so having 95-99% of the work done for you by AMD is a blessing, and at a decent price, it's just that in this "click-click.com" age of expecting instant gratification, most have become jaded and lazy

[500Jon]

Well said DC!

A 50 year old car body is an almost hand assembled Jigsaw of large metaly bits on a constantly moving conveyor.
By the time the doors and fenders get to be hung at the end of the line, its a LOTTERY for fit!
Small variances in body alignment can soon add up to a BIG mismatch indeed!!!
Wide and un-parallel gaps were just 'how they were' back in the day.
If you wanna put them right you will need a ROBOT like they have in modern car factories.

Back in they Heyday of American cars in the UK, my friend was a panel beater for a large London garage.
He says it was a NIGHTMARE panel fitting 50's/60's/70's American cars!
Most NEW panels came OVERSIZE and had to be 'cut to fit' and was extremely time consuming.
BIG-GAPS were the order of the day as Tight-gaps always resulted in paint chips on TWO-TON Flexi-bodies.

The problem is the 'perception of perfection' is never the same as in the REAL-WORLD!!!

[500Jon]

Just look at the grille alignment problems you get with the C500!

The 69 grille is obviously higher in the middle than the 68 Coronet grille?

[odcics2]

Some front ends fit better than others.

[500Jon]

Hi Greg,

I believe the lovely BLUE C500 is an un-restored car?
What excuse the other guys have, I'm not sure???

500Jon

Old Guys leaning on the grille don't help?

[Charger_Fan]

Some front ends fit better than others.

Looks like a whole lotta fiberglass on that front end...hood, valence, etc. No wonder it fits nice!

[white]

Did c500 come with the high bumper guards as an option?