WARNING! DANGER! If you are or will run a flat tappet cam read this!!!

[chargergirl]

Been running the Lucas treatment in our daily drivers and won't be changing that any time soon. Cars run great and the deisel love it. Different one run in the deisels but still need it just the same. Both are Lucas.

[daves68]

Just wondering what the REAL reason is for removing zinc from oil. There have been cats on cars ( converters, not kitty cats) since WAAAAAYYY back in 1975. Millions, maybe billions, (trillions ?)  of cats on everything. Cats lasting the entire life of the car. My 82' New Yorker with 240,000 miles and still passing emissions. All of them living with zinc in the oil, until last year.  And suddenly, they are failing because of zinc in the oil??    Thought- one very effective way to get old cars off the road. Crush 'em from the inside.
My inquiring mind wants to know.

[b5blue]

The "standards" have gotten tougher and harder to maintain. 

[jeryst]

If the synthetic oil you use does not have the proper levels of ZDDP, you will have the same problem.
Just because an oil is synthetic doesnt mean its better, or a cure all.

You have to be careful with additives, because too much ZDDP is just as bad as not enough.
Too much can cause spaulling of the metal. So, in order to use an additive, you need to find out
the ZDDP level of the oil you plan on using, then find out the ZDDP level of the additive, then
figure out the correct ratio, then mix it up. To me, that's a real PITA.

I have researched this quite a bit, and have decided to use Brad Penn oil in my old cars from now on.
It has 1500 ppm ZDDP and has been in business for over 50 years. The refinery is only an hour or
so away from me, and local dealers carry it. They offer a full range of multi-grade and straight
grade oils. About the same price as other oils, and its much more convenient because instead
of trying to figure out additive doses , you just throw in another quart of oil. Also much more
convenient when you just want to "top off" the oil.

BTW, they also off a special break-in oil for newly rebuilt engines.

If anyone is interested, their website is www.bradpennracing.com

[daves68]

Tougher standards are true- to a degree. Point- as mentioned, my old NY was still passing, in spite of tougher standards. Now,to be honest, there was some fuel tweaking going on towards the end but that was because they placed tighter limits on CO and NOX- limits that were not even around when the car was built. New car standards for an old car. It DID get harder to pass, not because the converter was failing, but because it was incrementally being made physically impossible for the older mechanicals to meet the new limits. Also true is that newer cars have converted to roller lifters and don't need the zinc. However, it doesn't really hurt them either. I am always skeptical when a govt agency makes statements  without providing technical proof to uphold their decision. This is an (another) example of that.  Now, here in Wisconsin, they are moving towards ending emission testing because it is expensive and ( gasp) is not really having any positive environmental effect.  Why? Newer cars are cleaner and more efficient. All of the wasted time and money for years of emission boogey man chasing produced nothing substantial, it's the new technology that did it. 

[jeryst]

Tougher standards are true- to a degree. Point- as mentioned, my old NY was still passing, in spite of tougher standards. Now,to be honest, there was some fuel tweaking going on towards the end but that was because they placed tighter limits on CO and NOX- limits that were not even around when the car was built. New car standards for an old car. It DID get harder to pass, not because the converter was failing, but because it was incrementally being made physically impossible for the older mechanicals to meet the new limits. Also true is that newer cars have converted to roller lifters and don't need the zinc. However, it doesn't really hurt them either. I am always skeptical when a govt agency makes statements  without providing technical proof to uphold their decision. This is an (another) example of that.  Now, here in Wisconsin, they are moving towards ending emission testing because it is expensive and ( gasp) is not really having any positive environmental effect.  Why? Newer cars are cleaner and more efficient. All of the wasted time and money for years of emission boogey man chasing produced nothing substantial, it's the new technology that did it. 

The Zinc supposedly hurts the newer catalytic converters, and too much zinc is bad for any motor.

IMO, emission standards should be grandfathered. Your car gets tested at the levels that were in effect  in the year of production.

I heard that the new cars run so clean, you actually cant commit suicide with them any more.

[Musicman]

I wish it were that simple, but the cats are necessary for the yearly Imissions test required by the State.

Some of us are extremely thankful that we in states that don't require all of this crap... CT required that emissions tests be performed on everything initially, but after they got sued a few times they lowered the standards for older vehicles and put an all out exception in there for vehicles over 25 years old.

[ChattanoogaCharger]

You should have zinc in the oil at all times with a flat tappet cam not just during break in.  Alot of guys i know use the Rotella (deisel oil) and some buy their oil from Hughes racing (or Mancini, I forget which) and it is like the old Kendall oil which has the zinc still in it.  This is what I have been told anyway.

[jeryst]

Rotella removed a lot of the zinc from their diesel oils, so I dont know if it is safe or not anymore.

[ChattanoogaCharger]

Here is a link to the additive that Hughes Engines sells.  It is regular price 6.99 a pint

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?partid=23942

[ChattanoogaCharger]

It is also a good idea when you buy a new cam to have it "hardened".  From comp cams it is generally $100 more than the reg cam

[ChattanoogaCharger]

Brad Pennn makes a really good oil with zinc 2000+ ppm

[jeryst]

It is also a good idea when you buy a new cam to have it "hardened".  From comp cams it is generally $100 more than the reg cam

Wouldnt you need to have your lifters hardened as well?

[jeryst]

Brad Pennn makes a really good oil with zinc 2000+ ppm

I use the Brad Penn oil. It says it has 1500 ppm, which is for most purposes, the right amount.

You should not go over 2000 ppm or metal spauling can occur.

[ChattanoogaCharger]

I really don't know  I'm just repeating what I have been told but the way I understand it is that the cam is the softest of all the metals and thats why it gets "eat up" so by having it hardened it doesn't.  Again, just repeating what friends have told me and they build alot of motors for race cars.

[62 Max]

Brad Pennn makes a really good oil with zinc 2000+ ppm

I use the Brad Penn oil. It says it has 1500 ppm, which is for most purposes, the right amount.

You should not go over 2000 ppm or metal spauling can occur.

Brad Penn analysis.

[pullrock]

I got this email from Joe Gibbs Racing today.  It is very concerning   Has anyone else gotten this email?

Eric
68 Charger R/T



Email Subject: New API SN motor oil standard announced - GM to introduce dexos 1 oil specification

Email body: Below is the official announcement that motor oil standards are changing again later this year. API SN will replace the current API SM oil. This is important information for all engine builders, racers and hot rodders to know about.



Here's the cliff's notes version of the changes:



Zinc – The type of Zinc will change to a new Zinc that is friendlier to catalytic converters. The new Zinc will not be tested for compatibility with flat tappet camshafts



Viscosity Modifiers/Polymers – Newer types of viscosity modifiers will be used to allow the oils to thin out over time to improve fuel economy



Also, GM is launching dexos 1 – a global engine oil specification. This new oil standard for 2011 model year GM cars and light trucks will be synthetic.



I wanted to pass this information along because the last time the oil specifications changed, nobody sent out the notice.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Lube Report from Lubes-n-Greases



Wednesday, May 5, 2010  VOLUME 10 ISSUE 18   





API SN Crosses Finish Line



By George Gill



API's Lubricants Committee approved the SN and SN Resource Conserving passenger car engine oil categories, with first licensing Oct. 1, 2010, launching alongside ILSAC GF-5. The thumbs-up came in spite of continued opposition from automakers.



API SN will be an upgrade of the current API SM category, identified by the API Donut trademark. It aims to address the full spectrum of engine oil viscosity grades, including those not covered under the ILSAC specification, such as SAE 10W-40. SN Resource Conserving (which will replace the current SM Energy Conserving designation) has additional requirements covering fuel economy improvement and vehicle emissions systems protection.



Feedback from automakers had been uniformly negative over a series of meetings in recent months. Some OEMs threatened to withdraw support for API licensed oils entirely if the SN category was not aligned to GF-5 in areas such as phosphorus content and deposit control.



"They [automakers] definitely didn't approve it," API engine oil licensing manager Kevin Ferrick confirmed to Lube Report. "The OEMs commented that had there been a separate ballot item for SN Resource Conserving, they would have approved that. But for practical purposes, we didn't feel it was necessary to change the ballot and issue it again. That was enough for us, that they approved of SN Resource Conserving. It makes sense because it's an exact duplicate of GF-5."



GF-5 oils are identified by API's Starburst trademark, and were developed jointly by ILSAC, representing North American and Japanese automakers, and oil and additive companies. The S-series of engine oil categories belong to API alone, and are referenced worldwide.



Ferrick noted that while the automakers are probably not happy with API SN in its final form, the Lubricants Committee felt strongly they needed SN to have some ability to meet what they perceived as a global need outside North America and Japan.



"Here in North America, the automakers are essentially recommending GF-5," he noted. "So SN Resource Conserving would give a clear signal to a consumer that they're getting a GF-5 product. API and the Lubes Committee agreed that they will do more to make sure the message gets out, that if an OEM is using GF-5, then you need to use GF-5 – that an SN oil by itself is not going to be enough. That you then have to do SN Resource Conserving. But then SN is available for places where GF-5 performance isn't recommended."



Washington, D.C.-based API withdrew an initial Jan. 8 ballot on SN and SN Resource Conserving. A new ballot went out March 31 and technically closed on April 16. On that same date, Ferrick said, the issue went before an Administrative Guidance Panel. "The recommendations that came out of there were similar to the ones found in the ballot," he noted. The 15-member Lubricants Committee worked out final definitions and user language for API SN and SN Resource Conserving during an April 23 conference call to review ballot comments.



OEMs had suggested additions to SN requirements, including an 800 ppm phosphorus limit, requiring the TEOST 33C test for high-temperature turbocharger deposits, and testing emulsion retention in all SN oil viscosities. The revised ballot addressed the issues to some extent, though not across the board for all viscosity grades.



"A lot of the comments we had from the automakers had to do with concerns about misapplication," Ferrick explained. "There was concern SN oils could end up in their cars when they need to be GF-5 or SN with Resource Conserving. The committee discussed that and did agree they need to do significantly more consumer education to make sure that there's not a misapplication."



In response to automaker's concerns, the Lubricants Committee agreed to add a sentence to the SN service recommendation, "Vehicle owners and operators should follow their vehicle manufacturer's recommendations on engine oil viscosity and performance standard." They hope this will help ensure that the oils recommended by engine manufacturers are used, especially in newer model-year vehicles.



Published by LNG Publishing Co., Inc.

Copyright © 2010 LNG Publishing Co., Inc. All rights reserved.

George Gill, Editor. Lube Report (ISSN 1547-3392) is published by LNG Publishing Co., Inc., 6105-G Arlington Blvd., Falls Church, Virginia 22044 USA. Phone: (703) 536-0800. Fax: (703) 536-0803. Website: www.LNGpublishing.com. Email: info@LNGpublishing.com. For advertising information contact Gloria Steinberg Briskin at (800) 474-8654 or (703) 536-7676 or gloria@LNGpublishing.com.





Lake C. Speed, Jr.

Certified Lubrication Specialist

Joe Gibbs Racing

[70charginglizard]

Looks like I might be one of the many screwed by this situation.
I think I might be loosing my no. 6 intake lobe of the comp cam I put in back in 2001.

[70charginglizard]

Looks like I might be one of the many screwed by this situation.
I think I might be loosing my no. 6 intake lobe of the comp cam I put in back in 2001.

Not totally sure of this yet but my problem may actually be nothing more then a small pinhole exhaust leak at the connection pipe I somehow missed in my preliminary investigation.  That would be totally awesome if true.

More to come later but the lizard may not need the disection I originally though it might.


to be continued....

[harlandodge]

guy at the machine shop here tells me to use the 15/40 rotella or the rated C chevron oil

[Ghoste]

I can't say about the Chevron but his info on the Rotella is old and no longer valid.

[Headrope]

CAFE standards and crushing can only kill so many vehicles but wiping out cams is brilliant ... too brilliant.
Which cam manufacturer provided the silver bullet to the EPA? We should never buy from them again.

[MoparJ]

I run Chevron Delo 15W40 in all of my cars, stock flat tappet, or Comp XE268 cammed cars. I usually add one blue STP bottle for some extra zinc.

[MoparJ]

I can't say about the Chevron but his info on the Rotella is old and no longer valid.

Chevron Delo should have 1150-1200 ppm, which is suitable with mild to moderate flat tappets.

[squeakfinder]

I can't say about the Chevron but his info on the Rotella is old and no longer valid.

Chevron Delo should have 1150-1200 ppm, which is suitable with mild to moderate flat tappets.

What did they do? Go back to the old formula? I would be real suprised....