DodgeCharger.com Forum
May 19, 2022, 04:35:17 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: I have updated the list of DodgeCharger.com shirts!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Login Register Chat  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 17   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Overheating issue resolved....interesting read !  (Read 185464 times)
firefighter3931
Global Moderator
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,498


572 street/strip bullet


« on: August 18, 2009, 12:50:21 AM »

As some of you know my Project Car aka the Black Pig was recently completed and i am in the tuning de-bugging stage. I was having some serious heat issues and tried a bunch of things to help cool it down. It has plenty of cooling capacity with a new dual pass aluminum rad so i was pretty sure that wasn't the issue.

The one thing that struck me as odd was the amount of radiant heat coming off the top of the engine....there was a ton of it. I've been around and tuned enough 440's to know that this wasn't normal. I started by replacing the 2000cfm pusher fan with a 3000cfm puller and that seemed to help somewhat but there was still lots of heat on the top end. I suspected the thermostat so i swapped in another one with basicly no change. I verified that both stats were functioning by testing them in boiling water and verified the open temps with my infrared heat gun...both worked fine.

Basicly, it would idle at 190* but out on the road the temps would spike and bounce between 180* and 210* almost instantaneously....like over a 5 second time frame. Normally when engine temps spike out on the road it's an airflow/obstruction issue with the radiator but this was different. I finally reasoned that there was an air/steam pocket in the cooling system and as that pocket moved around and the hot steam hit the water temp sensors it was creating the spiked temps. This made sense and explained why the guages were reading the way they were but didn't explain why the air pockets were forming despite repeated attempts to purge the cooling system. The fact that the top end of the engine was so hot was a clue and i figured that the coolant wasn't being circulated fast enough so it was boiling inside the engine creating the air pockets....but why was this happening ?  scratchchin

So, i'm on the phone discussing this problem with Dwayne @ Porter Racing heads and he's asking the usual questions :

(1) enough rad....yep, dual pass aluminum
(2) thermostat defective...nope, tried 2 of them and both open fully as they should
(3) tuning issues...nope, timing is perfect and jetting is good, if anything it's slightly rich...not lean
(4) vacuum leak....nope, checked that and vacuum is low but rock steady

So as the conversation progresses Dwayne asks me what water pump and housing is on the engine....same one we dynoed the engine with ?

Nope....I upgrade to a fancy aluminum 440Source housing and pump. Dwayne proceeds to groan and suggests that i inspect the housing very closely. Why...the housing looks great and it's new and what the heck could be the problem ? Apparently he had one of those housings in the shop for a customer's FAST 511 build and didn't like what he saw. Externally the housing looks fine but the engine supply ports (lower openings) are very restrictive. You're kidding right....how can this be ? Nope...they are poorly designed and you'll see it yourself once you pull the pump housing and stick your fingers down the hole.  scope

So, over the w/e i pulled the rad and all the front acessories off the engine to have a peek...sure enough the lower (supply) ports were very small. I compared this to the stock housing and it was like night and day ! On the stock housing i could easily get 2 or more fingers all the way into the hole but on the Source housing i could only get one finger in maybe an inch and it was jammed....WTH !!!  icon_smile_angry

Looking at the two housings and comparing them it was apparant that the factory housing is a much better design ; the water passage makes a gentle radiused curve into the block and has lots of volume. The Source housing has a sharp 90* bend and the water passage is pinched off to maybe 20-30% of the inlet opening. Geez...what a PISS POOR design this POS is. That can't be good for coolant circulation and explains why the coolant was boiling inside the block....it was staying in there too long and forming steam pockets.  yesnod

So, i re-installed the factory housing with my favorite Milodon water pump and fired it up. The engine ran for 20 minutes and hit 180* sitting there idleing in 108*F ambiant air temps....today was the hottest day of the summer by far....a real scorcher. I immediately noticed that the high radiant heat off the top end of the engine was gone...despite this being the hottest day i had ran the engine so far this year....the last time i ran it the air temp was 80*F. Looking at the coolant flow across the top of the rad i noticed immediately that there was a huge difference in flow....the coolant was circualting like it should be instead of just casually coasting by...which it had been with the 440 Source pump & housing. Encouraged by this i decided to take the car out for a drive to see how it would run....if it could run ok in 108* temps and not overheat...what more could you ask....that's about as bad as it can get ! So off i go for a cruise and it's running great....at speed the temp drops to 175* and holds that temp no problem. I try it in some slow moving traffic and the temp creeps up to 195*....not bad ! As soon as the car begins moving again.....the guage drops back to 175-180 and holds....Right On !!!!! 2thumbs


So, based on these results and close inspection of the 440 Source waterpump housing it's safe to assume that there is a major design flaw. If anybody is running this piece and has noticed increased temps and overheating you now know where to look. I have to give Kudo's to Dwayne for pointing me in the right direction. I hadn't considered that there was a problem with the design of this part because it visually looks good and i just assumed that the internal dimensions would be identical if not superior to the stock housing.....this is absolutely not the case.  Tongue


Hopefully this helps those members who may be experiencing overheat issues and if you are running one of these Chinese knockoffs my advice is to replace it asap....or at least compare it to the stock housing to see what you've got.


Sorry for the long winded post but i wanted to give an accurate description of the troubleshooting process and how the problem was isolated and ultimately resolved.



Ron
Logged

68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
69bronzeT5
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13,041


Canada, eh?


WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 12:58:12 AM »

Thanks for taking the time to write this Ron. Good catch on the waterpump housing, both of you! Good read 2thumbs
Logged

Feature Editor for Mopar Connection Magazine
http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/



1969 Charger: T5 Copper 383 Automatic
1971 Charger R/T: B5 Blue 440 Automatic
1971 Charger Super Bee: GY3 Citron Yella 440 4-Speed
Rolling_Thunder
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,387



« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 01:15:27 AM »

port and polish ?  I'm just curious if the issue could be resolved if you wanted to run that housing...      shruggy
Logged

1968 Dodge Charger - 6.1L Hemi / 6-speed / 3.55 Sure Grip

2013 Dodge Challenger R/T - 5.7L Hemi / 6-speed / 3.73 Limited Slip

1964 Dodge Polara 500 - 440 / 4-speed / 3.91 Sure Grip

1973 Dodge Challenger Rallye - 340 / A-518 / 3.23 Sure Grip
firefighter3931
Global Moderator
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,498


572 street/strip bullet


« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 01:22:54 AM »

port and polish ?  I'm just curious if the issue could be resolved if you wanted to run that housing...      shruggy


Probably not Alex....the housing doesn't look thick enough to "hog out" in the restricted area.  Twocents

INMO, this housing has no business on a street engine.....maybe on a race car that makes a quick pass then cools down in the pits for 1/2 an hour or so.



Ron
Logged

68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
Belgium R/T -68
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,174


« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 02:10:09 AM »

Am I lucky I gave my 440source housing+pump away and used the Milodon setup I initially planned on using. lol

Per
Logged

Charger -68 R/T 500 cui Stroker
Steve P.
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,711



« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 02:37:20 AM »

I spoke with Ron at length about this tonight. I also have a 440 Source pump and housing. Only mine are still on the paint stand. As we were talking I went out to the shop and checked mine out. 440 Source against a stock iron housing. Holy cow.... Both bottom, or feed holes, are very small compared to the iron housing. The passenger side is tiny.  One finger tip. The same hole on the iron housing is 3-4 times the size of the source housing.  I will NOT be using this housing on my fresh motor.

I'm sure many of you reading this will have that heart in stomach feeling. I do and I haven't even used mine. I figure that this feeling now and doing something about it, is better than lunching a motor due to overheating. 

Now I really wonder how many of you guys I and others have helped chase down heating issues that have never been quite satisfied with end results are using the 440 Source housing?  I know VegasMike will be looking for a few iron housings.


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Side note:  If anyone has a 440 source housing and another brand aluminum housing I would love to hear from you. The test results would be greatly appreciated here.
Logged

Steve P.
Holiday, Florida
kcederwall08
Junior Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 02:54:09 AM »

Hmmmmm, very interesting. Perhaps this is a reason for some of my overheating. I started a thread about my over heating a while ago, and I have the same pump and housing.

Are the water pumps them selves any good?

I think I might have to try to switch to my stock one to see if it makes a difference.  scratchchin
Logged

tan top
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 32,111


69 -R/T SE


« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 03:15:19 AM »

good find  yesnod some intresting reading !! glad you sorted it Ron 2thumbs
Logged

Feel free to post any relevant picture you think we all might to see in below threads !

Charger Stuff 
  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,86777.0.html
Chargers in the background where you least expect them 
  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,97261.0.html
C500 & Daytonas & Superbirds
  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95432.0.html
Interesting pictures & Stuff 
  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,109484.0.html
runningman
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,193



« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 03:51:07 AM »

I have a MP housing on mine but it is also on the stand still.  I will go and take a look at that tonight.

Matt
Logged
y3chargerrt
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,047



« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 05:29:59 AM »

I'm sure this in another defective part that 440source won't take back or make right!
Logged
Challenger340
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,336


Better to be a "has been", than a "never was"


« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2009, 07:03:13 AM »

Excellent post RON  2thumbs
Who'd have thunk !
Logged

Only wimps wear Bowties !
firefighter3931
Global Moderator
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,498


572 street/strip bullet


« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2009, 07:04:03 AM »

Hmmmmm, very interesting. Perhaps this is a reason for some of my overheating. I started a thread about my over heating a while ago, and I have the same pump and housing.

Are the water pumps them selves any good?

I think I might have to try to switch to my stock one to see if it makes a difference.  scratchchin


These housings are definately a problem....get that thing off there ASAP !!!!  RantExplode

As far as the waterpump itself...i'm not impressed with the impeller design. The Milodon pump uses blades like a stock pump but adds an anti-cavitation plate. I've used this pump on several engines and never had an issue.

Fire your engine up and pull the rad cap....once the thermostat opens..look at the coolant flow...if it's moving slowly you have a problem.

Here are some pics of a Milodon vs 440 source waterpump impeller. I know which one i prefer  Wink



Ron


* Milodon HV 440 WP.jpg (51.76 KB, 495x616 - viewed 17864 times.)

* 440 Source WP.jpg (47.8 KB, 806x399 - viewed 16895 times.)
Logged

68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
Ghoste
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 41,092



« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2009, 07:06:27 AM »

Terrific, that means I have a beautifully cast aluminum paperweight sitting on the shelf.  At least I avoided the hassle of putting it on and having overheat issues. brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
Logged

Just 6T9 CHGR
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 13,593


AKA... "The Game Changer"


« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2009, 07:09:20 AM »

Damn Ron, another POS part from 440 Source.  Glad you got it sorted.  Sometimes "new" is not necessarily better rotz

Any chance you took some comparison shots of the housings?
Logged

Chris' '69 Charger R/T

Musicman
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,436



« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 07:16:51 AM »

Great post Ron 2thumbs

I have one still sitting in the box waiting to go on my new build... I guess it's going to be staying in the box now   2thumbs

Thanks again RON... and Dwayne cheers
This is definitely not the kind of thing that one would look for, or would ever suspect  yesnod

Good post!!!

Logged
firefighter3931
Global Moderator
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,498


572 street/strip bullet


« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2009, 07:19:17 AM »

Terrific, that means I have a beautifully cast aluminum paperweight sitting on the shelf.  At least I avoided the hassle of putting it on and having overheat issues. brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall


Shawn, i feel for ya, i'm in the same boat with a fancy paperweight to hang on the wall....but at least you didn't overheat your engine and warp the heads. How bad would that suck ?  brickwall

I imagine that a lot of 440 source housings/pumps will be showing up on e-bay very shortly  lol



Ron
Logged

68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
Ghoste
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 41,092



« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2009, 07:21:31 AM »

I guess we better try and beat the rush huh? (jk)  eek
Logged

firefighter3931
Global Moderator
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,498


572 street/strip bullet


« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2009, 07:25:13 AM »

Damn Ron, another POS part from 440 Source.  Glad you got it sorted.  Sometimes "new" is not necessarily better rotz

Any chance you took some comparison shots of the housings?


Chris, you can't really see the restriction in a pic unless you look at the backside of the housing and see the sharp bend on the lower passage. It's not something anyone would be looking for....i sure wasn't.  icon_smile_blackeye

It's quite obvious once you do the "finger test"  Cheesy  and compare it to the stock housing.

Just when you think you've seen it all....something new comes along and bites ya in the AZZ  lol



Ron
Logged

68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
firefighter3931
Global Moderator
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,498


572 street/strip bullet


« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2009, 07:31:23 AM »

I guess we better try and beat the rush huh?


In all good conscience i would have a hard time selling this thing as a legitimate fully functional part knowing what i know. If i decide to sell it the add will state "race only" and "not for street use".  yesnod

It wouldn't be right to sell this to a Mopar brother....too bad it won't bolt onto a Chevy !  Cheesy  lol



Ron
Logged

68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
Ghoste
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 41,092



« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2009, 07:37:43 AM »

Me too in all honesty.
LOL, I was thinking the very same thing about too bad it won't bolt on a Chevy. lol
Logged

firefighter3931
Global Moderator
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11,498


572 street/strip bullet


« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2009, 07:37:54 AM »

Great post Ron 2thumbs

I have one still sitting in the box waiting to go on my new build... I guess it's going to be staying in the box now   2thumbs

Thanks again RON... and Dwayne cheers
This is definitely not the kind of thing that one would look for, or would ever suspect  yesnod

Good post!!!




I was thinking of you Mike as i was typing out this post....i know you purchased a lot of 440 Source stuff. Better to find out now before you overheat a fresh engine. New engines run hot enough during the break-in phase...you don't need to handicap it anymore with a restrictive water circulation problem.

Another member....MFR426 (Mike R) is running the 440 Source pump/housing on his 505 and told me it runs a lot hotter than his old engine used to with the same rad/fan/shroud.  eek



Ron
Logged

68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
Blown70
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,196



« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2009, 07:51:57 AM »

Great read Ron.  Gland to hear the Black Pig is not a HOT Black pig  2thumbs 

Glad I am not the far yet.... Although me being MR. fancy may run a remote water pump and shove it through the heads first.... Although, I will chat with Dwayne first. on those purdy little heads that will be in my hands soon.... Cheesy
Logged
Blown68Coronet
Junior Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2009, 08:20:41 AM »

Thanks for the heads up Ron, Mine's coming off the Coronet this week!! Maybe we could pool them up together and take them into the scrap yard in exchange for a case of good ol Keith's!!!!! Cheesy smilielol
Logged
gasoline_24
Senior Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 592



« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2009, 08:44:41 AM »

Thanks for the the heads up Ron.  Just called Wayne and told him to leave it off.  Now I need to overnight some things to him so we don't delay the engine dyno on Saturday.  Dwayne never spoke highly of the 440 source stuff.  I wish I would have listened to him on all of it.  Better to find out now as opposed to after it was installed and painted.  Great timing Ron.   cheers
Logged
Ghoste
Old Timer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 41,092



« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2009, 08:48:46 AM »

So the official concensus is that the Milodon pump with the stock cast iron housing is the way to go?
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 17   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.085 seconds with 16 queries.